A04468:4174
A defence of the Apology of the Church of England containing an answer to…A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande conteininge an answeare to…
A defence of the Apology of the Church of England containing an answer to a certain book lately set forth by M. Harding, and entitled, A confutation of &c. By John Jewel Bishop of Salisbury.A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande conteininge an answeare to a certaine booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge, and entituled, A confutation of &c. By Iohn Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie.
Imprinted at London : In Fleetestreate, at the sign of the Elephant, by Henry Wykes, Anno 1567. 27. OctobrisImprinted at London : In Fleetestreate, at the signe of the Elephante, by Henry VVykes, Anno 1567. 27. Octobris
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Picus Mirandula besought Pope Leo. 10. to abate the vain Multitude of your Ceremonies: to reform your Prayers: and to cut of your Fables:
Picus Mirandula besoughte Pope Leo. 10. to abate the vaine Multitude of youre Ceremonies: to refourme youre Praiers: and to cut of youre Fables:
One of your own Lovanian Fellows saith,1 Even now a days, many good ⟨p. 628⟩men mislike so many Appeals to Rome: 2Somme others find fault with your Pardons: Somme with your Simony: some with your Stews: some with your licentious keeping, and maintaining of Concubines.
One of youre owne Louanian Felovves saithe,1 Euen nowe a daies, many good ⟨p. 628⟩menne mislike so many Appeales to Rome: 2Somme others finde faulte with your Pardonnes: Somme with youre Simonie: some with youre Stevves: somme with youre licenceous keepinge, and mainteininge of Concubines.
- 1Copus Dialo. 1. pag 115.
- 2Idolatry in the Church of Rome.Idolatrie in the Churche of Rome.
I will not enlarge the matter further. These, and other like things are confessed by your selves. Other greater matters I will not touch. For in cases of Faith, for your credits sake, ye may grant no manner Error. For, otherwise it might be thought, ye have neither the Faith, nor the Life of Christian men.
I wil not enlarge the mater further. These, and other like thinges are confessed by youre selues. Other greater maters I wil not touche. For in cases of Faith, for your credites sake, ye maie graunte no manner Erroure. For, otherwise it might be thought, yee haue neither the Faith, nor the Life of Christian menne.
Now therefore tell us, M. Harding, what one Abuse of all the Abuses in your Mass: what one Disorder, or Deformity, of so many Disorders, and Deformities in your Church: What one vain Ceremony: What one Childish Fable: What Appeal to Rome: What Simony: What Pardon: What Stews: What Courtesans: What Concubines have ye reformed? If ye redress not those gross, and sensible Abuses, that ye see with your eyes: how then will ye redress other more secrete matters, that pertain only to Faith, and be not seen? If ye will not reform your open Stews, when will ye reform the Church of God? But ye are bold to assure us, that there is no kind of Idolatry, nor ever was any in your whole Church of Rome. Notwithstanding, some others of your best Learned Friends have thought otherwise, as it shall appear.
Nowe therefore tel vs, M. Hardinge, what one Abuse of al the Abuses in your Masse: what one Disorder, or Deformitie, of so many Disorders, and Deformities in your Churche: What one vaine Ceremonie: What one Childishe Fable: What Appeale to Rome: What Simonie: What Pardonne: What Stevves: What Courteghianes: What Concubines haue yee refourmed? If yee redresse not those grosse, and sensible Abuses, that yee see with youre eies: howe then wil yee redresse other more secrete maters, that perteine onely to Faithe, and be not seene? If ye wil not refourme your open Stevves, when wil yee refourme the Churche of God? But yee are bolde to assure vs, that there is no kinde of Idolatrie, nor euer was any in youre whole Churche of Rome. Notwithstanding, somme others of youre beste Learned Frendes haue thought otherwise, as it shal appeare.
First, 1Epiphanius saith of certain Persians, named Magusaei, Idola quidem detestantur: tamen Idolis cultum exhibent: They abhor the sight of Idols: yet they fall down, and worship Idols. Again, he reporteth certain words of S. Paul, as uttered of him by the Sprite of Prophecy, Erunt Mortuis Cultum Divinum praestantes, quemadmodum etiam. in Israel impiè coluerunt: They shall give godly honour unto dead men, like as also they did in Israel.
Firste, 1Epiphanius saithe of certaine Persians, named Magusaei, Idola quidem detestantur: tamen Idolis cultum exhibent: Thei abhorre the sight of Idolles: yet thei fal downe, and woorship Idolles. Againe, he reporteth certaine woordes of S. Paule, as vttered of him by the Sprite of Prophesie, Erunt Mortuis Cultum Diuinum praestantes, quemadmodum etiam. in Israel impiè coluerunt: Thei shal geue godly honoure vnto deade menne, like as also thei did in Israel.
- 1Epiphani. li. 3. In Oratione, De Fide catholica. [Greek or Hebrew].Epiphani. li. 3. In Oratione, De Fide catholica. 〈non-Latin alphabet〉.
What opinion ye have had of Saints departed, I need not here to remember. Cardinal Bembus, in an Epistle unto the Emperor Charles. 5. calleth the Blessed Virgin, 1Dominam Deam nostram: Our Lady and Goddess. Your great Hercules, Lipomanus, crieth out in his marginal agony, Ecce quàm potentissima est sancta Dei Genitrix: & quomodò nullus saluus fieri possit nisi per eam: Behold, how mighty is the holy Mother of God, and how no man may be saved, but by her.
What opinion yee haue had of Sainctes departed, I neede not here to remember. Cardinal Bembus, in an Epistle vnto the Emperour Charles. 5. calleth the Blessed Virgine, 1Dominam Deam nostram: Our Lady and Goddesse. Youre greate Hercules, Lipomanus, crieth out in his marginal agonie, Ecce quàm potentissima est sancta Dei Genitrix: & quomodò nullus saluus fieri possit nisi per eam: Beholde, howe mighty is the holy Mother of God, and howe noman maie be saued, but by her.
- 1Epiphani. contra Collyridian. Bembus in Epis. ad Carolum 5. Lipomanus. Pag in 289.
It seemeth, this Error began to spring long sithence, even in the time of the Old Fathers: and that hereof Faustus, the Heretic, took occasion thus to charge the Catholics for the same. 1Idola vertistis in Martyrs: Ye have changed the Heathen Idols into your Martyrs. Further, ye say, the Reverence, that ye give unto Saints Images, is no Idolatry. Yet Polydorus Vergilius, speaking hereof, saithe thus: Quia Sacerdotes populum non docent, & vulgo ex usu suo tacere putantur,2 idcirco' eo' insaniae deventum est, ut haec pars Pietatis parùm differat ab Impietare: For that the Priests instruct not the people, and are thought to hold their peace for gains sake, the matter is brought to such a dotage, that this part of Devotion differeth but little from Extreme Wickedness. And Ludovicus Vives saith, he seeth no great difference between many Christian men worshipping their Images,3 & an Heathen man adoring his Idols. Catharinus, one of your great Doctors of Trident, saith thus: An licet Adorare Imagines ipsas, & illis cultū praebere? Sunt qui hoc omnino' negent, & clament, esse Idololatriam. Videntur autem non futilibus Argumentis moveri: nec absque Maiorum, imo' etiam Scripturarum Authoritate: Whether is it lawful to Worship the very Images, or no? Somme men say, nay: and call it Idolatry. And they seem to be moved with no light Arguments, nor without the Authority, as well of the Fathers, as of the Scriptures.
It seemeth, this Erroure beganne to springe longe sithence, euen in the time of the Olde Fathers: and that hereof Faustus, the Heretique, tooke occasion thus to charge the Catholiques for the same. 1Idola vertistis in Martyres: Yee haue changed the Heathen Idolles into youre Martyrs. Further, yee saie, the Reuerence, that yee geeue vnto Sainctes Images, is no Idolatrie. Yet Polydorus Vergilius, speaking hereof, saithe thus: Quia Sacerdotes populum non docent, & vulgo ex vsu suo tacere putantur,2 idcirco' eo' insaniae deuentum est, vt haec pars Pietatis parùm differat ab Impietare: For that the Priestes iustructe not the people, and are thought to holde theire peace for gaines sake, the mater is brought to sutche a dotage, that this parte of Deuotion differeth but litle from Extreme Wickednesse. And Ludouicus Viues saithe, he seeth no greate difference bitweene many Christian menne woorshipping their Images,3 & an Heathen man adouring his Idolles. Catharinus, one of your greate Doctours of Tridente, saithe thus: An licet Adorare Imagines ipsas, & illis cultū praebere? Sunt qui hoc omnino' negent, & clament, esse Idololatriam. Videntur autem non futilibus Argumentis moueri: nec absque Maiorum, imo' etiam Scripturarum Authoritate: Whether is it lawful to Woorship the very Images, or no? Somme menne saie, nay: and calle it Idolatrie. And thei seeme to be moued with no light Argumentes, nor without the Authoritie, as wel of the Fathers, as of the Scriptures.
- 1August. Contra Faustum. li. 20. cap 21.
- 2Polydor. Virgil. De Inuentoribus rerum. li. 6. cap. 13.
- 3Ludo. Vives, in li. De Civita. Dei Catharinus in Libello de Imaginibus.Ludo. Viues, in li. De Ciuita. Dei Catharinus in Libello de Imaginibus.
Jacobus Nanclantus saithe, 1Non solùm fatendum est, Fideles in Ecclesia Adorare coram Imagine, sed & Adorare Imaginem, fine quo volueris scrupulo: quin & •o illam venerari cultu, quo & prototypon eius. Propter quod, si illud habet Adorari Latria, & illa habet Adorari Latria: We must grant, that the Faithful people in the church, do not only ⟨p. 629⟩worship before the Image, but also worship the Image it self: and that without any manner scruple of Conscience, whatsoever. And further, They worship the Image with the self same honour, wherewith they worship the thing it self, that is represented by the Image. As if the thing it self be worshipped with godly honour, then must the Image it self likewise be worshipped with godly honour. Hereto agreeth one other of your late Writers, Jacobus Payua.2 And an other of your like Doctors saith, This is the very use, and practise of your Church of rome. But, Robertus Holcote saith, This kind of worshipping, is plain Idolatry. Ye will say, Ye know the Image is no God. And this, ye think, is excuse sufficient. But so likewise said the Heathens of their Idols: & yet, as S. Augustine saith, they were Idolaters notwithstanding.
Iacobus Nanclantus saithe, 1Non solùm fatendum est, Fideles in Ecclesia Adorare coram Imagine, sed & Adorare Imaginem, fine quo volueris scrupulo: quin & •o illam venerari cultu, quo & prototypon eius. Propter quod, si illud habet Adorari Latria, & illa habet Adorari Latria: We must graunte, that the Faithful people in the churche, do not onely ⟨p. 629⟩vvoorshippe before the Image, but also vvorshippe the Image it selfe: and that without any manner scruple of Conscience, whatsoeuer. And further, Thei vvorshippe the Image vvith the selfe same honoure, vvherevvith thei vvoorshippe the thinge it selfe, that is represented by the Image. As if the thing it selfe be vvoorshipped vvith godly honoure, then muste the Image it selfe likevvise be vvoorshipped vvith godly honoure. Hereto agreeth one other of your late Writers, Iacobus Payua.2 And an other of your like Doctours saithe, This is the very vse, and practise of your Churche of rome. But, Robertus Holcote saith, This kinde of vvorshippinge, is plaine Idolatrie. Yee wil saie, Yee knovve the Image is no God. And this, ye thinke, is excuse sufficiente. But so likewise saide the Heathens of theire Idoles: & yet, as S. Augustine saith, thei were Idolaters notwithstanding.
- 1Jacob. Nanclantus. in Epist. ad Roma. cap. 1.Iacob. Nanclantus. in Epist. ad Roma. cap. 1.
- 2Jacob. Payua. li. 9 Fortalitiū Fidei. Rob. Holcote. In librum Sapien. Lectione. 158.Iacob. Payua. li. 9 Fortalitiū Fidei. Rob. Holcote. In librum Sapien. Lectione. 158.
Ye will say, 1It is the Image of an Apostle of Christ, or of God him self: and therefore it can be no Idolatry. But S. Augustine saith, Marcellina colebat Imaginem Jesus, & Pauli, & Homeri, & Pythagorae, Adorando, Incensumque ponendo: Marcellina Worshipped the Image of Jesus, and of Paul, and of Homer, and of Pythagoras, by kneeling unto them, and burning Incense before them. Yet nevertheless she was an Idolater. The Saracens this date, make their Sacrifices in Mount Mecca, not to Devils, or Heathen Gods: But to Abraham, and Isaac, and S. Thomas: yet ace they not therefore excused of Idolatry. 2Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa, S. Basiles Brother, saithe thus: Qui Creaturam Adorat, etsi in Nomine Christi id faciat, tamen Simulachrorum Cultor est, Christi Nomen Simulachro imponens: He that worshipper a Creature, notwithstanding he do it in the Name of Christ, yet is he a worshipper of Images, as giving the name of Christ unto an Image. By these few, M. Harding, it may soon appear, that your Churches are not void of all Idolatry.
Yee wil saie, 1It is the Image of an Apostle of Christe, or of God him selfe: and therefore it can be no Idolatrie. But S. Augustine saithe, Marcellina colebat Imaginem Iesu, & Pauli, & Homeri, & Pythagorae, Adorando, Incensumque ponendo: Marcellina Woorshipped the Image of Iesus, and of Paule, and of Homere, and of Pythagoras, by kneelinge vnto them, and burninge Incense before them. Yet neuerthelesse she was an Idolater. The Saracenes this date, make theire Sacrifices in Mounte Mecha, not to Diuels, or Heathen Goddes: But to Abraham, and Isaac, and S. Thomas: yet ace thei not therefore excused of Idolatrie. 2Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa, S. Basiles Brother, saithe thus: Qui Creaturam Adorat, etsi in Nomine Christi id faciat, tamen Simulachrorum Cultor est, Christi Nomen Simulachro imponens: He that woorshipper a Creature, notwithstandinge he doo it in the Name of Christe, yet is he a woorshipper of Images, as geeuing the name of Christe vnto an Image. By these fewe, M. Harding, it maie soone appeare, that your Churches are not voide of al Idolatrie.
- 1Augu. De Verb. Domi. Secundum Matt. Sermo 6. Augustin. Ad Quodvult deum. Paul. Venet. li. 3. Cap. 27.
- 2Gregor. Nyssen. In Orat. funebri de Placilla.
The Apology, Cap. 7. Division. 3.
The Apologie, Cap. 7. Diuision. 3.
And therefore we know, that divers times many good men, and Catholic Bishops did tarry at home, & would not come, when such Councils were called, wherein men so apparently laboured to serve factions, & to take parts, because they knew, they should but lose their travail, and do no good, seeing whereunto their enemies minds were so wholly bent. Athanasius denied to come, when he was called by the Emperor to his Council at Caesarea, perceiving plainly he should but come among his enemies, which deadly hated him. The same Athanasius, when he came afterward to the Council at Syrmium, and foresaw what would be the end, by reason of the outrage, and malice of his enemies, he packed up his carriage, and went away immediately. John Chrysostom, although the Emperor Constantius, 1commanded him by four sundry letters, to come to the Arians Council, yet kept he him self at home still. When Maximus, the Bishop of Jerusalem, sate in the Council of Palestine, the Old Father Paphnutius toke him by the hand, and lead him out at the doors, saying: It is not lawful for us, to confer of these matters with wicked men. The Bishops of the East would not come to the Syrmian Council, after they knew, Athanasius had gotten him self thence again. Cyril called men back by letters from the Council of them, which were named Patropassians. Paulinus, Bishop of Trier, and many others ⟨p. 630⟩moe, refused to come to the council at Milan, when they understood, what a stir, and rule Auxentius kept there: for they saw, it was in vain to go thither, where not reason, but faction should prevail: and where folk contended, not for the Truth, and right judgement of the matter, but for Partiality, and Favour.
And therefore we knowe, that diuers times many good men, and Catholique Bishoppes did tarrie at home, & would not come, when sutche Councelles were called, wherein menne so apparently laboured to serue factions, & to take partes, bicause thei knewe, thei should but lose their trauaile, and doo no good, seeinge wherevnto theire enimies mindes were so wholy bente. Athanasius denied to comme, when he was called by the Emperoure to his Councel at Caesaria, perceiuinge plainely he should but cōme among his enimies, whiche deadly hated him. The same Athanasius, when he came afterwarde to the Councel at Syrmium, and foresawe what woulde be the ende, by reason of the outrage, and malice of his enimies, he packed vp his cariage, and went away immediately. Iohn Chrysostome, although the Emperoure Constantius, 1commaunded him by foure sundrie letters, to come to the Arians Councel, yet keapte he him selfe at home stil. When Maximus, the Bishop of Hierusalem, sate in the Councel of Palestine, the Olde Father Paphnutius toke him by the hand, and leadde him out at the doores, saieinge: It is not lavvful for vs, to conferre of these maters vvith vvicked menne. The Bishoppes of the Easte woulde not comme to the Syrmian Councel, after they knewe, Athanasius had gotten him selfe thence againe. Cyril called menne backe by letters from the Councel of them, whiche were named Patropassians. Paulinus, Bishop of Trier, and many others ⟨p. 630⟩moe, refused to comme to the councel at Millaine, when they vnderstoode, what a sturre, and rule Auxentius keapte there: for they sawe, it was in vaine to goe thither, where not reason, but faction shoulde preuaile: and where folke contended, not for the Truthe, and right iudgemente of the mater, but for Partialitie, and Fauour.
- 1Histor. Tripari. lib. 10. cap. 13. Euseb. li 1. ca. 17.
And, all be it those Fathers had such malicious and stiff necked enemies, yet if they had come, they should have had free speech at least in the councils.
And, al be it those Fathers had sutche maliceous and stiffe necked enimies, yet if thei had comme, thei should haue had free speache at least in the councelles.
M. Harding.
M. Hardinge.
First,1 here I note the falsehood of the Lady interpreter, who turneth the Latin speaking of Athanasius. Cùm vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium Caesariense: When he was called by the Emperor to his Council at Caesarea. Where by adding the word his, of her own, she or a worse shrew under her name, goeth about to persuade, as Heretics do, that the Councils be to be accounted the Councils of Temporal Princes, not of Bishops: and that they be the heads of them, not the Bishop of Rome. This much to her. Now Sir to you Defender. Al these examples serve you to no purpose. It is not denied you, but that in cases, men may refuse to come to Councils. Your examples declare, that Catholic Bishops shunned to come unto the unlawful Councils of Heretics. But ye holding strange opinions, condemned by the Church, deny to come to the lawful Councils of Catholic Bishops. When ye have proved us to be Heretics, I mean the Fathers of the late Council, then may ye justly allege the example of Athanasius, Chrysostom, Maximus, Paphnutius, Cyril, Paulinu, and such other, for not coming to the Council.
First,1 here I note the falsehed of the Lady enterpreter, who turneth the Latine speaking of Athanasius. Cùm vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium Caesariense: VVhen he was called by the Emperoure to his Councel at Caesarca. VVhere by addinge the worde his, of her owne, she or a worse shrewe vnder her name, goeth about to perswade, as Heretiques doo, that the Councels be to be accompted the Councels of Temporal Princes, not of Bishoppes: and that they be the heads of them, not the Bishop of Rome. This mutche to her. Nowe Sir to you Defender. Al these examples serue you to no purpose. It is not denied you, but that in cases, menne maie refuse to comme to Councels. Your examples declare, that Catholique Bishops shunned to come vnto the vnlauful Councels of Heretiques. But ye holdinge strange opinions, condemned by the Churche, denie to comme to the lauful Councels of Catholike Bishoppes. VVhen ye haue proued vs to be Heretiques, I meane the Fathers of the late Councel, then maie ye iustly alleage the example of Athanasius, Chrysostome, Maximus, Paphnutius, Cyril, Paulinu, and sutche other, for not comminge to the Councel.
- 1And why not as well, as M. Hard. may call the whole Church the Popes Vineyard? pag. 283. b. Or, all the Bishops through the world the Popes Sheep? Pag. 308. b.And vvhy not as vvel, as M. Hard. maie calle the vvhole Churche the Popes Vineyarde? pag. 283. b. Or, al the Bishops through the vvorlde the Popes Sheepe? Pag. 308. b.
The B. of Salisbury.
The B. of Sarisburie.
Had you not had a shrewd sharp wit, M. Harding, and a very good liking of the same, ye could never have made your self so great sport of so small a matter. The Lady Interpreter pitieth your case, and wisheth you a little more discretion: and would be much ashamed to answer your follies.
Had you not had a shrewde sharpe witte, M. Hardinge, and a very good likinge of the same, yee coulde neuer haue made your selfe so greate sporte of so smal a mater. The Lady Interpreter pitieth your case, and wisheth you a litle more discretion: and woulde be mutche ashamed to answeare your folies.