The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin used the name of the chair, for the office of teaching, which is common to all Bishops, as well to hirelings, as to pastors. For he saith that the chair constraineth them to speak good things and true: the chair constraineth them. How are they constrained but by a special grace for the benefit of the Church? And in what Bishops may this grace be showed, but in the Popes only?
Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire, for the office of teaching, which is common to all Bishops, as well to hirelinges, as to pastors. For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true: the chaire constraineth them. How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church? And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed, but in the Popes onely?
Rainoldes. S. Austin, as he noteth that grace in the Popes, so doth he show it in all other Catholic Bishops of his time, whose doctrine the Donatists (against whom he writeth) did not reprove, but their manners. He calleth kthe chair, (in which they all sit) the chair of wholesome doctrine: and saith, they are constrained to speak good things in it. He openeth the cause why they are constrained: lto wit, that although they seek their own things; yet 1they are afraid, and dare not teach their own things, out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established. So that the special grace, whereby they are constrained to speak good things and true: is an ungracious grace, whereby they are induced to seek their wealth or honour. For, mthey preach Christ for earthly commodities, n
of money, or dignities, and the praise of man. The love of which things is so mighty with
⟨p. 354⟩
them, that it doth move them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sort as is fit to get or keep the things which they love. And hereupon S. Austin saith, they are constrained and enforced to it: as
Laelius told his friends that they constrained him to grant them a thing, which they by earnest suite entreated. For that he used the word [constrain] in that sense: himself hath declared
shepherds (he meaneth hirelings) will they, nill they, will say the words of God that they may come to milk and wool. The speech may seem harsh, that shepherds will they, nill they, will say the words of God: but he speaketh so, to note that the love of milk and of wool, that is, of commodities, constraineth them to feed the sheep with Gods word, whether they like of it, or no. Now because the doing hereof is in, and by, their office of teaching, which the chair betokened, as, the chair of Moses: therefore
amongst Christians, hirelings are constrained to say them in the chair too. As if I should say, when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Popery, a worldling against worldliness, an hypocrite against hypocrisy, (which some times they do:) the pulpit constraineth them to preach so.
Rainoldes. S. Austin, as he noteth that grace in the Popes, so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time, whose doctrine the Donatists (against whom he writeth) did not reproue, but their maners. He calleth kthe chaire, (in which they all sit) the chaire of wholsome doctrine: and saith, they are constrained to speake good thinges in it. He openeth the cause why they are constrained: lto wéete, that although they seeke their owne thinges; yet 1they are afraid, and dare not teach their owne thinges, out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established. So that the speciall grace, whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true: is an vngratious grace, whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour. For, mthey preach Christ for ear•hly commodities, nof mony, or dignities, and the prayse of man. The loue of which thinges is so mightie with ⟨p. 354⟩them, that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they loue. And hereupon S. Austin saith, they are constrained and inforced to it: as oPaul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes, because by his example hee moued them effectually; as pLaelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing, which they by earnest suite intreated. For that he vsed the worde [constraine] in that sense: himselfe hath declared qother-where, by saying, that 2shepeheardes (he meaneth hirelinges) will they, nill they, will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll. The spéech may séeme harsh, that shepeheardes will they, nill they, will say the wordes of God: but hee speaketh so, to note that the loue of milke and of wolle, that is, of commodities, constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde, whether they like of it, or no. Now because the doing herof is in, and by, their office of teaching, which the chaire betokened, as, the chaire of Moses: therefore rhe saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges; and that samongst Christians, hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too. As if I should say, when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie, a worldling against worldlinesse, an hypocrite against hypocrisie, (which some times they doo:) the pulpit constraineth them to preach so.
kAugust. epist. 166.
lDe doctrin. Christian. lib. 4. cap. 27.
1Sua docere non audent.
mIn evang Johan. Tractat. 4•.In euang Iohan. Tractat. 4•.
2Velint nolint pastores ut perueniant ad lac & lanam, verba Dei dicturi sunt.Velint nolint pastores vt perueniant ad lac & lanam, verba Dei dicturi sunt.
You should mistake me, if you should imagine that I mean our pulpit hath a special grace to keep all preachers still from error. Even so do they S. Austin, who dream of such a chair in his words. Howbeit, if you think that a chair with him is of greater force, then a pulpit with us: yet you can not think but that his words spoken of the Scribes and Pharisees are meant of all Bishops, who say and do not. For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharisees often, even in the same tbook which your Rhemists allege. Wherefore if the Pope by virtue of the chair cannot err as Pope: then an other Bishop cannot err as Bishop by virtue of the same chair. But any other Bishop, you grant, may err as Bishop. Therefore you must grant, the Pope may err as Pope.
You should mistake me, if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour. Euen so doo they S. Austin, who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes. Howbeit, if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force, then a pulpit with vs: yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops, who say and doo not. For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often, euen in the same tbooke which your Rhemists alleage. Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope: then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire. But any other Bishop, you graunt, may erre as Bishop. Therefore you must graunt, the Pope may erre as Pope.
tContr. litre. Petilian. l. •. c, 7. & l. 2. c. 6. & l. 3. c. 2.Contr. liter. Petilian. l. •. c, 7. & l. 2. c. 6. & l. 3. c. 2.
Hart. Nay, I will grant rather that S. Austin erred, and ⟨p. 355⟩laid a false ground: if he do impart the privilege of the chair to all other Bishops as well as to the Pope.
Hart. Nay, I will graunt rather that S. Austin erred, and ⟨p. 355⟩laide a false ground: if he doo impart the priuilege of the chaire to all other Bishops as well as to the Pope.
Rainoldes. Then you must grant withal that Genebrard and your Rhemists have abused S. Austin, to bring him as for that, which he is flat against. But I will defend S. Austin in a truth: and prove that the argument which I have grounded on him is so sure and sound, that you must needs grant it, unless you will be froward wilfully. For what think you, first: may a Bishop err as Bishop?
Rainoldes. Then you must graunt withall that Genebrard and your Rhemists haue abused S. Austin, to bring him as for that, which he is flat against. But I will defend S. Austin in a truth: and proue that the argument which I haue grounded on him is so sure and sound, that you must néedes graunt it, vnlesse you will be froward wilfully. For what thinke you, first: may a Bishop erre as Bishop?
Rainoldes. Because a Prince is, as it were, a physician of the common wealth: and a physician can not err, as physician. For in that he erreth, he misseth of his art. Wherefore, by want of physic he erreth, not by physic. And so (to speak exactly) no artificer can err: at the least he cannot err as an artificer. For he which erreth, erreth because he hath not skill enough, and not because he hath skill.
Rainoldes. Because a Prince is, as it were, a physician of the common wealth: and a physician can not erre, as physician. For in that he erreth, he misseth of his arte. Wherefore, by want of physicke he erreth, not by physicke. And so (to speake exactly) no artificer can erre: at the least he cannot erre as an artificer. For he which erreth, erreth because he hath not skill enough, and not because he hath skill.
Hart. But yet an artificer may err in practise of his art: as a physician, in curing sick men: a Prince, in ruling the common wealth. And therefore, me thinketh, that shift is but a quiddity. For an artificer may be justly said to err as an artificer, when he doth err in that which he dealeth with in respect of his art. At least, if he err not therein as an artificer, he erreth as an evil artificer.
Hart. But yet an artificer may erre in practise of his arte: as a physician, in curing sicke men: a Prince, in ruling the common wealth. And therefore, me thinketh, that shift is but a quidditie. For an artificer may be iustly saide to erre as an artificer, when he doth erre in that which he dealeth with in respect of his arte. At least, if he erre not therein as an artificer, he erreth as an euill artificer.
Hart. Then your man in Plato must amend his speech: and say, that a Prince may err as an evil Prince, though he cannot, as good; and a magistrate, as an evil magistrate.
Hart. Then your man in Plato must amend his spéech: and say, that a Prince may erre as an euil Prince, though he cannot, as good; and a magistrate, as an euill magistrate.
