To the reader: John Hart to the indifferent Reader., The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head… (John Rainolds, 1584) | AskReformation
A10345:13
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Behold (gentle Reader) the conference, which thou hast so long looked for, between M. Rainoldes and me, at length ended: as also it had been more then twelve months since, had not my self hindered the coming of it forth, when it was nigh ready to be delivered to the Printer. For it is now above two years ago, that the right honourable, Sir Francis Walsingham, as he had showed me great favour from the time that I was apprehended, in granting me liberty of conference at home, first in mine own country, and afterward in prison: so, when the sentence of death was past upon me, he ceased not still to offer me the same favour if I would admit it. Which I, grounding my self upon the most certain foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for ever, did gladly yield to, and (as became me) accepted of it with all duty. Whereupon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to confer with me: taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoever books I did need thereto. But after we had spent certain ⟨p. 10⟩weeks together in conference by word of mouth, and I continued still in my former mind: he desired to have the sum thereof in writing, that he might see the grounds on which I stood. And to this intent we set down together brief notes of the points that we dealt in: I showing my reasons with the places of the authors whose judgement and learning I rather trusted too, then to my own skill; and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good. Howbeit, those notes being so short (as pointing to things rather then unfolding them) that they could not well be understood by any, but our selves only, unless they were drawn more largely and at full: my self being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death, (as altogether uncertain when I might be called to yield up mine account before God and man,) requested M. Rainoldes to take pains to pen them according to our notes thereof. Promising him that I would peruse it when he had done it, and allow of it, if it were to my mind; or otherwise correct, if I misliked ought in it. This pains he undertook, and sending me the parts thereof from time to time as he finished them, I noted such things as I would have added, or altered therein, and he performed it accordingly. But when I perceived that it was prepared to be set forth in print:
BEhold (gentle Reader) the conference, which thou hast so long looked for, betweene M. Rainoldes and me, at length ended: as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since, had not my selfe hindred the cōming of it foorth, when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer. For it is now aboue two yeares ago, that the right honorable, Syr Francis Walsingham, as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended, in graunting me libertie of conference at home, first in mine owne countrie, and afterwarde in prison: so, when the sentence of death was past vpon me, hee ceased not still to offer me the same fauour if I would admit it. VVhich I, grounding my selfe vpon the most certayne foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for euer, did gladly yeeld to, and (as became me) accepted of it with all dutie. VVherevpon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to conferre with me: taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoeuer bookes I did neede thereto. But after we had spent certayne ⟨p. 10⟩weekes together in conference by word of mouth, and I continued still in my former mind: he desired to haue the summe thereof in writing, that he might see the groundes on which I stood. And to this intent we set downe together breefe notes of the points that we dealt in: I shewing my reasons with the places of the autours whose iudgement and learning I rather trusted too, then to my owne skill; and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good. Howbeit, those notes being so short (as pointing to thinges rather then vnfolding them) that they could not well bee vnderstood by any, but our selues onely, vnlesse they were drawne more largely and at full: my selfe being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death, (as altogether vncertaine when I might be called to yeeld vp mine account before God and man,) requested M. Rainoldes to take paines to penne them according to our notes thereof. Promising him that I would peruse it when he had doon it, and allow of it, if it were to my mind; or otherwise correct, if I misliked ought in it. This paines he vndertooke, and sending me the partes thereof from time to time as he finished them, I noted such thinges as I would haue added, or altered therein, and he performed it accordingly. But when I perceiued that it was prepared to be set foorth in print:
I sought means to stay it all that I could, for some considerations ⟨p. 11⟩which seemed to me very great and important. Marry since that again understanding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward, whereunto he granted me also by special warrant the use of such books as I should call for to help my self withal: I set afresh upon it, & by letters written unto M. Rainoldes & received from him, I had mine own speeches & reasons perfected, as I would. Wherefore, I acknowledge that he hath set down herein a true report of those things which past in conference between us, according to the grounds and places of the authors, which I had quoted & referred my self too. As for that which he affirmeth *in one place, that I have told him, that my opinion is, the Pope may not depose Princes: in deed I told him so much. And in truth I think that although the spiritual power be more excellent & worthy than the temporal; yet they are both of God, neither doth the one depend of the other. Whereupon I gather as a certain conclusion, that the opinion of them, who hold the Pope to be a temporal Lord over Kings & Princes, is unreasonable and unprobable altogether. For he hath not to meddle with them or theirs civilly, much less to depose them or give away their kingdoms: that is no part of his commission. He hath in my judgment the Fatherhood of the Church, not a Princehood of the world: Christ himself taking no such title upon him, ⟨p. 12⟩nor giving it to Peter, or any other of his disciples. And that is it which I meant to defend in him, and no other sovereignty. Humbly desiring pardon of her Majesty, my gracious sovereign Lady, for my plain dealing in that, which (so Christ help me) I take to be Gods cause, and the Churches only. As I do also most willingly submit my self to the courteous correction of all men, who, through greater skill, and perfecter judgement, see more then I do in the depth of these matters whereof I have conferred. Farewell, gentle Reader: and now that I have showed thee my dealing herein, let me obtain this little request at thy hands, that thou be not too hasty in giving thy judgement, before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and uprightly.
I sought meanes to stay it all that I could, for some considerations ⟨p. 11⟩which seemed to me very great and important. Marry since that againe vnderstāding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward, wherevnto he granted me also by speciall warrant the vse of such bookes as I should call for to helpe my selfe withall: I set afresh vpon it, & by letters written vnto M. Rainoldes & receiued from him, I had mine owne speeches & reasons perfitted, as I would. VVherefore, I acknowledge that he hath set downe herein a true report of those things which past in conference betweene vs, according to the grounds and places of the autours, which I had quoted & referred my self too. As for that which he affirmeth *in one place, that I haue told him, that my opinion is, the Pope may not depose Princes: in deede I told him so much. And in truth I thinke that although the spiritual power be more excellēt & worthie thē the temporall; yet they are both of God, neither doth the one depend of the other. VVherevpon I gather as a certaine conclusion, that the opinion of them, who holde the Pope to be a temporall Lord ouer Kings & Princes, is vnreasonable and vnprobable altogether. For he hath not to meddle with thē or theirs ciuilly, much lesse to depose them or giue away their kingdomes: that is no part of his commission. He hath in my iudgment the Fatherhoode of the Church, not a Princehood of the world: Christ himself taking no such title vpon him, ⟨p. 12⟩nor giuing it to Peter, or any other of his disciples. And that is it which I meant to defend in him, and no other soueraintie. Humbly desiring pardon of her Maiestie, my gratious soueraine Lady, for my plaine dealing in that, which (so Christ helpe me) I take to be Gods cause, and the Churches only. As I do also most willingly submit my selfe to the curteous correction of all men, who, through greater skill, and perfitter iudgement, see more then I doe in the depth of these matters whereof I haue conferred. Farewell, gentle Reader: and now that I haue shewed thee my dealing herein, let me obtaine this little request at thy handes, that thou be not too hasty in giuing thy iudgemēt, before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and vprightly.
*In the seve•th Chapter, and the seventh Division.In the seue•th Chapter, and the seuenth Diuision.
Brethren, my harts desire & prayer unto God for Israel is, that they may be saved. For that which S. aPaul wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, bhis brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) your selves, my kinsmen according to the flesh in like sort, and countrymen of England. Of whom I have the greater compassion and pity, because I am persuaded that you sin of ignorance rather then of wilfulness; and have a devotion to serve God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be served. That I may justly say the same unto you, which S. cPaul of them: For I bear you record that you have the zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeal, which the Israelites had, was of dthe law. The knowledge, which they wanted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after ethe traditions and doctrines of ⟨p. 14⟩their Fathers: and knowing not fChrist to be the end thereof, they sought their own righteousness against the righteousness of God. The zeal, which you have, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to understand it gafter the manner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that hthe Pope is supreme head of the Church; ithe trade of Popish Priesthood, the way to save souls; kthe sacrifice of Popish Mass, the sovereign sacrifice; in a word, lthat Papistry is the Catholic faith: and mthe faith and service of the Church of England is cursed and damnable; specially, nthe oath of the Queens supremacy. And your minds are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as far in the defence of them, as the Donatists did, who loved their errors better then their lives. Great zeal, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospel teacheth not that which you imagine; your Fathers were abused by Pharisees & Rabbins: your Pope hath usurped over all Christian states; your Priesthood is impious; your Mass, abomination; your Popish faith, heresy; our doctrine of the Queens supremacy, & oath thereto, our ministry of the word, of sacraments, ⟨p. 15⟩of prayers, agreeth with the Gospel, and therefore is holy. Which things sith this Conference, that one of your Seminary-Priests, and I have had, doth open & prove: peruse it (• beseech you) with equity and judgement;
BRethren, my harts desire & prayer vnto God for Israel is, that they may bee saued. For that which S. aPaule wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, bhis brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) your selues, my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort, and countriemen of England. Of whom I haue the greater compassion and pitie, because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse; and haue a deuotion to serue God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be serued. That I may iustly say the same vnto you, which S. cPaule of thē: For I beare you record that you haue the zeale of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeale, which the Israelites had, was of dthe law. The knowledge, which they wāted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after ethe traditions and doctrines of ⟨p. 14⟩their Fathers: and knowing not fChrist to be the ende thereof, they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God. The zeale, which you haue, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to vnderstand it gafter the maner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that hthe Pope is supreme head of the Church; ithe trade of Popish Priesthoode, the way to saue soules; kthe sacrifice of Popish Masse, the souerain sacrifice; in a word, lthat Papistrie is the Catholike faith: and
and study to join knowledge to your zeal, that you may be saved. Perhaps your Superiors (the *guides who seduce you) will not give you leave to read it and peruse it. But there are two reasons which should move them to condescend thereto: the one, of the work; the other, of the authors. The work, is a conference: which themselves have called for. And othe chiefest of them hath wished, that some of theirs might meet in scholastical combat with any of us before indifferent judges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemn of fancy and humane tradition, should then be invincibly proved to be most agreeable to Gods word. Wherefore sith this combat hath been undertaken, and that in such sort as plearned men have thought to be most fit for trial of the truth; not by extemporal speaking, but writing with advise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answers, the replies set down, and sifted of both sides, till each had fully said; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithful all may judge of it: your guides cannot honestly deny you the sight ⟨p. 16⟩of their invincible proofs therein. The authors of the work: are M. Hart and I. Of whom qthey have given out in print to the world, sithence we began it, that I, 1though the learnedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2did show my self so much the more unlearned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3a noble champion of Christ, and 4a holy Priest, a 5Bachelor of Divinity, 6had taken deeper root in the foundations of the faith, and 7was of sounder learning, then that the reasons, which I (8 no common Minister of the English synagogue) brought to overthrow him, could remove him from it. So that 9I was fain to go whence I came: and leave him, as I found him. Now, if they themselves think this to be true, which they have given out: they may boldly suffer you to read our Conference, that you may see the triumph, which a noble champion of yours, a holy Priest, a Bachelor of Divinity, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an unlearned Minister, and yet the learnedst of that sort. But if they will not give you leave to read it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholars, and base words of us, are but sleights of policy; as many vaunts & lies be in the same pamphlets wherein these are written.
and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale, that you may be saued. Perhaps your Superiors (the *guides who seduce you) will not giue you leaue to reade it and peruse it. But there are two reasōs which should moue them to cōdescend thereto: the one, of the worke; the other, of the autours. The worke, is a conference: which thēselues haue called for. And othe chiefest of thē hath wisht, that some of theirs might meete in scholasticall combat with any of vs before indifferent iudges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemne of fansie and humane tradition, should then be inuincibly proued to be most agreeable to Gods word. Wherfore sith this combat hath bene vndertaken, and that in such sort as plerned men haue thought to be most fit for triall of the truth; not by extemporall speaking, but writing with aduise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answeres, the replies set downe, and sifted of both sides, till ech had fully sayd; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithfull all may iudge of it: your guides cannot honestly denie you the sight ⟨p. 16⟩of their inuincible proofes therein. The autours of the worke: are M. Hart and I. Of whom qthey haue giuē out in print to the worlde, sithence we began it, that I, 1though the lernedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2did shew my selfe so much the more vnlerned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3a noble champion of Christ, and 4a holy Priest, a 5Bacheler of Diuinitie, 6had taken deeper roote in the foundations of the faith, and 7
Nay, you may suspect, that ⟨p. 17⟩there is somewhat which they are afraid least you should espy: and therefore debar you from the means of knowing it. In deed, my deer brethren, you are circumvented by rthem who commend the love, and liberality, and piety of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to train up English youth under the Jesuits and other famous men. For the love pretended towards you therein, is, to have you his servants. The liberality employed in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit thereunto. The Jesuits and others set to train you up, are set to nuzzle you in heresy and treason, the pillars of his faith and State. The sKing of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, did command Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuchs, that of the Israelites he should bring tchildren, who were without blemish, well favoured, wise, and skilful, and had ability in them; & that he should teach them the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans. uAnd the King appointed them provision every day of a portion of his meat, and of the wine which he drank: that they, being brought up so for three years, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregory the thirteenth loveth you, brethren, as King Nebuchadnezzar did the Israelites. xHe hath found the means that there should be brought to the Masters of his Eunuchs, Jesuits, ⟨p. 18⟩& others, a number of the best wits out of England, that they may teach you the arts and tongue of the Romans. And yhe hath appointed provision for you of monthly exhibition, in bountiful sort: but to what end? zthat after certain years of this education you may stand before the Pope. aDaniel perceived that the Kings love & liberality was not single; but sought his own profit: which bhis fellows also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you have the spirit of Daniel and his fellows: you will see as much in the Popes double love, and liberality. Sure, he giveth juster cause to distrust it, then the King did. For, the Kings drift in training up them, that they might stand before him, was only that 10they should attend and wait upon him, as courtiers, in his palace. Or if, because he chose them 11of the blood royal, and seed of the nobility, he had a further drift: it was but the assurance of their land of Judah. But you are trained up by the Pope to serve him in provinces abroad, not in his palace at home;
Nay, you may suspect, that ⟨p. 17⟩there is somewhat which they are afrayde least you should espie: and therefore debarre you frō the meanes of knowing it. In deed, my deere brethren, you are circumuented by rthem who commend the loue, and liberalitie, and pietie of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to traine vp English youth vnder the Iesuites and other famous men. For the loue pretended towards you therein, is, to haue you his seruants. The liberalitie emploied in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit therevnto. The Iesuites and others set to train you vp, are set to noosell you in heresie and treason, the pillers of his faith and State. The sKing of Babylon, Nabuchodonosor, did commaund Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuches, that of the Israelites he should bring tchildren, who were without blemish, well fauoured, wise, and skilfull, and had abilitie in them; & that he should teach them the artes and tongue of the Chaldeans. uAnd the King appointed them prouision euerie day of a portion of his meate, and of the wine which he dranke: that they, being brought vp so for three yeares, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregorie the thirteenth loueth you, brethren, as King Nabuchodonosor did the Israelites. xHe hath founde the meanes that there should bee brought to the Masters of his Eunuches, Iesuites, ⟨p. 18⟩& others, a number of the best wittes out of England, that they may teach you the artes and toung of the Romans. And yhe hath appointed prouision for you of moonthly exhibition, in bountifull sort: but to what ende? zthat after certain yeres of this education you may stand before the Pope. aDaniel perceaued that the Kings loue & liberalitie was not single; but sought his own profit: which b
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to subdue for him that which he hath lost, not to assure him of that he hath subdued; nor to make him sovereign of one land, but of two; and them not small of territory, and state, as Judah was, but greater and mightier, England, ⟨p. 19⟩& Ireland. For which a poorer fisher, then the Pope is, would be content to angle with a hook of gold, although it cost him more then your two Seminaries are likely to do. Pope Leo the tenth edid spend a hundred thousand ducats in one day, upon the pomp and bravery of his coronation: fand eight hundred thousand more in one war against the Duke of Urbin, to spoil him of his State, thereby to establish a nephew of his own in it. In his days Luther rose: the Protestants had not touched the triple crown yet. His successors have felt what danger it is in. If some of their offals be spent, with greater show of alms, on scholars now, chiefly on such scholars as may defend their crown: gthe Papacy (you know) is discreetly managed; this managing doth prove not less ambition, but more discretion. The policy of Gregory the thirteenth appeareth therein, not the piety. His cost hupon captains, & soldiers, and ships sent into Ireland, discloseth the fountain of his liberality and love to our nation. Whereof that is also a clearer proof, & plainer token, that the Masters of his Eunuchs are set to teach you the arts and tongue of the Romans: as Asphenaz the Master of the Kings Eunuchs was to teach the Israelites ⟨p. 20⟩the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans. I mean not the Italian tongue, though iwhere they will you to learn that withal, it is a special point of the kings policy: but I mean the Romish tongue (so to call it) and language of Popery. The knowledge of the arts ye are not all taught; but ye are all taught the knowledge of this tongue, be ye Philosophers, or Divines: Philosophers, in sermons, in catechisms, in confessions; Divines, in the lectures of cases, of controversies, of positive Divinity, and (they, who can) of Hebrew, and School-divinity too. kThe woman was deceived through desire of knowledge which the serpent promised her. Great things are promised you by Seminary-proctors of perfecter knowledge to be obtained there, then with us in England.
to subdue for him that which hee hath lost, not to assure him of that hee hath subdued; nor to make him soueraine of one land, but of two; and them not small of territorie, and state, as Iuda was, but greater and mightier, England, ⟨p. 19⟩& Ireland. For which a poorer fisher, then the Pope is, would be content to angle with a hooke of golde, although it cost him more then your two Seminaries are lykely to doo. Pope Leo the tenth edid spend a hundred thousand ducats in one day, vpon the pompe and brauerie of his coronation: fand eight hundred thousand more in one warre against the Duke of Vrbin, to spoile him of his State, thereby to establish a nephew of his owne in it. In his dayes Luther rose: the Protestants had not touched the triple crowne yet. His successours haue felt what danger it is in. If some of their offals be spent, with greater shew of almes, on scholers now, chiefly on such scholers as may defēd their crowne: gthe Papacie (you know) is discreetely menaged; this menaging doth proue not lesse ambition, but more discretion. The policie of Gregorie the thirteenth appeereth therin, not the pietie. His cost hvpon captains, & souldiours, and ships sent into Ireland, discloseth the fountaine of his liberalitie and loue to our nation. Whereof that is also a cleerer proofe, & plainer token, that the Masters of his Eunuches are set to teach you the artes and toung of the Romans: as Asphenaz the Master of the Kinges Eunuches was to teache the Israelites ⟨p. 20⟩the artes and toung of the Chaldeans. I meane not the Italian toung, though iwhere they will you to lerne that withal, it is a special point of the kings policie: but I meane the Romish tongue (so to call it) and language of Poperie. The knowledge of the artes yee are not all taught; but yee are all taught the knowledge of this toung, be ye Philosophers, or Diuines: Philosophers, in sermons, in catechismes, in confessions; Diuines, in the lectures of cases, of controuersies, of positiue Diuinitie, and (they, who can) of Hebrue, and Schoole-diuinitie too. kThe woman was deceued through desire of knowledge which the serpent promised her. Great thinges are promised you by Seminarie-proctors of perfitter knowledge to be obtained there, then with vs in England.
And truly, for the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans, I think that the Master of the Kings Eunuchs taught them more exactly, then any of the Jews did within Jerusalem. But for the liberal arts and llanguage of Canaan, the skill of our readers, the course of our studies, the orders of our Colleges and Universities are such, what through public lectures thereof, what through private, with sundry kinds of exercises to ripen the travails of students in them both: that, if I listed to deal, as S. Paul doth, with ⟨p. 21⟩mthe false Apostles, I might boldly say, nthey are Hebrews, so am I. For if you excel us in one help of learning, as your harder state in a strange country may breed greater diligence then ours at home more plentiful: we countervail you with vantage in an other, as that we spend six years in the study of Philosophy, for that you spend three; seven in Divinity, for that you spend four. Wherein, I refer it to your own judgements, whether our so long time, though with meaner helps, be not as available to soundness & maturity of judgement & knowledge, (which years do greatly further:) as your helps, whatsoever they be, in so short time. Or ween you of your selves, that, from your first entrance into the study of logic,o three years can make you perfect Masters of the arts, so perfect, passing, eminent, as you are borne in hand? and four years as perfect graduates in Divinity? Or is not this hast used by the Masters of the Popes Eunuchs to dispatch you quickly, that you may serve in his affairs? But it was not my purpose to enter into comparison of our Colleges, with your Seminaries: much less of our two most noble Universities, with your two Colleges. Let your readers be as skilful as pangels of light; as painful, ⟨p. 22⟩as qthe Prince of darkness. Let their orders and lectures, and exercises pass ours, as far as rthe little finger of Rehoboam was bigger then his fathers loins. The knowledge, which they teach you, is of good and evil: like that of the serpent which deceived the woman. It is not the doctrine of Jerusalem, but of Babylon; the tongue of the Chaldeans, not the language of Canaan, which you shall learn of them. Neither do they instruct you, as children of the Prophets, to stand before the Lord: but as the Kings Eunuchs, as Babylonish vassals, to stand before the Pope.
And truely, for the artes and toung of the Chaldeans, I thinke that the Master of the Kinges Eunuches taught them more exactly, then any of the Iewes did within Ierusalem. But for the liberall artes and llanguage of Chanaan, the skill of our readers, the course of our studies, the orders of our Colleges and Vniuersities are such, what through publike lectures thereof, what through priuate, with sundrie kinds of exercises to ripen the trauailes of students in them both: that, if I listed to deale, as S. Paul doth, with ⟨p. 21⟩mthe false Apostles, I might boldly say, nthey are Hebrues, so am I. For if you excell vs in one helpe of lerning, as your harder state in a strange countrey may breede greater diligence then ours at home more plentifull: wee counteruaile you with vauntage in an other, as that we spend sixe yeares in the studie of Philosophie, for that you spend three; seuen in Diuinitie, for that you spēd foure. Wherein, I referre it to your owne iudgements, whether our so long time, though with meaner helpes, be not as auaileable to soundnesse & maturitie of iudgemēt & knowledge, (which yeares doo greatly furder:) as your helpes, whatsoeuer they be, in so short time. Or weene you of your selues, that, from your first entrāce into the studie of logike,o three yeares can make you perfit Masters of the artes, so perfit, passing, eminent, as you are borne in hand? and foure yeares as perfite graduates in Diuinitie? Or is not this hast vsed by the Masters of the Popes Eunuches to dispatche you quickly, that you may serue in his affaires? But it was not my purpose to enter into comparison of our Colleges, with your Seminaries: much lesse of our two most noble Vniuersities, with your two Colleges. Let your readers be as skilfull as pangels of light; as painefull, ⟨p. 22⟩as qthe Prince of darkenesse. Let their orders and lectures, and exercises passe ours, as farre as rthe little finger of Roboam was bigger then his fathers loynes. The knowledge, which they teach you, is of good and euill: like that of the serpent which deceiued the woman. It is not the doctrine of Ierusalem, but of Babylon; the toung of the Chaldeans, not the language of Chanaan, which you shal lerne of them. Neither do they instruct you, as children of the Prophets, to stand before the Lord: but as the Kings Eunuches, as Babylonish vasals, to stand before the Pope.
When sDaniel requested the Master of the Eunuchs that he and his fellows might not be forced to eat the meat and drink the wine of the Kings provision, least that (it being often 2such, or uused so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they should be 4defiled thereby, and offend: xthe Master said unto him, I fear my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meat & your drink: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, then the other children that are of your sort, & so should you endanger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his fellows: and savouring of the instruction taught them in Jerusalem, ythat they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the Eunuchs had learned an other lesson, ⟨p. 23⟩that he must do in all things, as the King commanded. Which although he would have taught his scholars also, according to the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans: yet he showed (by mentioning his fear of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. Whereby it came to pass, that anz other officer, whom he set over them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the Jesuits, & the rest, whom Nebuchadnezzar of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, used you no worse then Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say unto you, We fear our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your conscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet should not your souls be forced to that, & other overseers might give you better food. But other overseers & they are so linked all in one devotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruit, they nip it off straight, and teach you to think and speak in all respects according to the arts and tongue of the Romans. Whereof they have given experience & proof in many learned men & writers of your side. But three fresh ⟨p. 24⟩examples may suffice to show it: even Ludovicus Vives, Johannes Molanus, and Carolus Sigonius. For Vives had uttered (in ahis commentaries on S. Austin) some speeches that stood not with the Popes liking: as namely, that bPrinces are supreme governors in earth next under God; that chumane affections do reign oftentimes in the holiest men, and dFathers have their oversights;
When sDaniel requested the Master of the Eunuches that he and his felowes might not bee forced to eate the meate and drinke the wine of the Kings prouision, least that (it being often 2such, or uvsed so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they shuld be 4defiled therby, and offend: xthe Master said vnto him, I feare my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meate & your drinke: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, then the other children that are of your sort, & so shuld you indaunger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his felowes: and sauoring of the instruction taught them in Ierusalem, ythat they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the Eunuches had lerned an other lesson, ⟨p. 23⟩that he must doo in al things, as the King cōmanded. Which although he would haue taught his scholers also, according to the artes and toung of the Chaldeans: yet hee shewed (by mentioning his feare of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. VVhereby it came to passe, that anz other officer, whom he set ouer them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the Iesuites, & the rest, whom Nabuchodonosor of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, vsed you no worse then Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say vnto you, VVe feare our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your cōscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet shuld not your soules be forced to that, & other ouerseers might giue you better food. But other ouerseers & they are so linked all in one deuotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruite, they nippe it off straight, and teach you to thinke and speake in all respects according to the artes and toung of the Romans. VVhereof they haue giuen experiēce & proofe in many lerned men & writers of your side. But three fresh ⟨p. 24⟩
that eSaints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that fthe story of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonical scriptures; that gthey, who prefer the Latin translation before the Greek and Hebrew fountains, are men of evil minds, and corrupt judgements; that hnone must be blamed for the kind of meats, but for excess in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospel; that iPriests are ambitious, covetous, unchaste, enriching their bastards with the churches spoils, yea, kwicked and ungodly in causing things of Christ to be set forth in plays; that lall things almost are sold and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolmen, through ignorance of tongues, have not only marred & smothered mall other arts, but nDivinity too; and ohave profaned it with their curiosity, their vanity, their folly, their rashness in moving and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and ⟨p. 25⟩heathen Philosophers, then scholars of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundry speeches mo to like effect, the Divines of Lovan (in their late pedition of S. Austins works) have taken out of Vives: & shaving off his locks, as qDelilah did Samsons, have made him like an other man. Molanus, setting forth the Church of Romes Legend, rthe Martyrology of Usuarde, with notes of his own, and D. Hessels Censure on certain stories of Saints, had therein discredited not only forged writings, bearing false titles, as stales of the Apostles fathered on Obadiah; of tMartialis, on Aurelian; of uAustin, on Ambrose: but also the reports of their right authors, though speaking not aright, xPope Adrian, yPalladius, Cassianus, Nicephorus, and zSimeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defence of the Mass, of merits, of monkery, of nunnery, of the worship of Saints, of relics, of images, and other superstitions and errors of Popery, doth stand on the credit of these records and evidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and told thereofa by many, was fain to be a Censor of Lovan to himself: and bto raze out his notes of them all, saving of Obadiah, (a forgery ccondemned by the Pope, & Papists, the Roman Inquisitors dmany years ago,) with D. Hessels Censure wholly.
that eSaints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that fthe storie of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonicall scriptures; that gthey, who preferre the Latin translation before the Greeke and Hebrew fountaines, are men of euill mindes, and corrupt iudgements; that hnone must bee blamed for the kinde of meates, but for excesse in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospell; that iPriests are ambitious, couetous, vnchast, enriching their bastards with the churches spoiles, yea, kwicked and vngodly in causing thinges of Christ to be set foorth in playes; that lall things almost are solde and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolemē, through ignoraunce of toungs, haue not only marred & smoothered mall other artes, but nDiuinitie too; and ohaue profaned it with their curiositie, their vanitie, their folly, their rashnes in moouing and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and ⟨p. 25⟩heathen Philosophers, then scholers of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundrie speeches mo to like effect, the Diuines of Louan (in their late pedition of S. Austins workes) haue taken out of Viues: & shauing off his lockes, as qDalila did Samsons, haue made him like an other man. Molanus, setting foorth the Church of Romes Legende,
Sigonius (in his story of the Western ⟨p. 26⟩Empire) hath written eso of Constantine, that he hath not only not proved the charter of Constantine's donation, (a fable, that he gave the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproved it. Cardinal Sirletus sent him word from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungry Greeks) have mentioned that charter. A miserable evidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enrol it, and use it gently, as fhe doth. Though overthrowing gafterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poor man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his duty to show what Eusebius and many more had written, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinal Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Divines of Lovan with Ludovicus Vives, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of service, or servitude rather, you are trained up by the Popes officers: who, if you utter a word beside the arts and tongue of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your tongues if they be long. Yet this is a freedom in respect of that slavery which your Masters fat you too.
*Alas ye know not silly souls, nor yet do understand
The thraldom of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band.
For it is a small thing that they should restrain ⟨p. 27⟩you from reproving falsehood, or force you to further it in points of lesser weight; (a hard thing for ingenuous minds, but small for them:) unless they lead you also, with heresy, and treason, to band your selves against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrel, that he may be exalted has God iof Gods upon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are kthe higher powers, ordained to execute justice and judgement over the good and evil. The Lord hath given charge of these his anointed, that all, even every soul, should be subject to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was given. Your lMasters do teach you, that if they endeavour to withdraw their subjects to infidelity or heresy, then ought they not to reign: and the Pope, as judge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that 1the persons, over whom the power of the sword is given them, are lay men only, not the clergy.
Sigonius (in his storie of the Weststerne ⟨p. 26⟩Empire) hath written eso of Constantine, that he hath not onely not proued the charter of Constantines donation, (a fable, that hee gaue the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproued it. Cardinall Sirletus sent him worde from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungrie Greekes) haue mentioned that charter. A miserable euidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enroll it, and vse it gently, as fhe doth. Though ouerthrowing gafterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poore man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his dutie to shew what Eusebius and many more had writen, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinall Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Diuines of Louan with Ludouicus Viues, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of seruice, or seruitude rather, you are trained vp by the Popes officers: who, if you vtter a worde beside the artes and toung of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your toungs if they be long. Yet this is a freedome in respect of that slauerie which your Masters fat you too.
*Alas yee knowe not seely soules, nor yet doo vnderstand
The thraldome of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band.
For it is a small thing that they should restraine ⟨p. 27⟩you from reprouing falsehood, or force you to furder it in points of lesser waight; (a hard thing for ingenuous mindes, but small for them:) vnlesse they leade you also, with heresie, and treason, to band your selues against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrell, that he may bee exalted has God iof Gods vpon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are kthe higher powers, ordained to execute iustice and iudgement ouer the good and euill. The Lord hath giuen charge of these his anointed, that all, euē euery soule, should be subiect to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was giuen. Your
eDe occident. Imper. l. 3. & 4.
flib. 3.
glib. 4.
*Nescis ab perdita: necdum Laomedouteae sentis periuria genti•▪
lThe Jesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, Controver. 4. part. 2. question. 3. Wherein the rest follow h•m, after their common doctrine of the Pope• supremacy.The Iesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, Controuer. 4. part. 2. quaestion. 3. Wherein the rest folowe h•m, after their common doctrine of the Pope• supremacie.
1As Pope Innocentius the third doth, c. sol•tae. de maiorita•e & obedientia.As Pope Innocentius the third dooth, c. sol•tae. de maiorita•e & obedientia.
Much more, to add thereto, that 2the things and matters wherein they have to govern, are only temporal, not spiritual. Bu••o say, that 3the Pope may deprive them of their kingdoms, nor only take from them some of their subjects in all causes, & all their subjects in some causes, but all their subjects and causes both, it is so ungodly: that mSigebert, a monk, who lived ⟨p. 28⟩five hundred years since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first usurp that power against the Emperor Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleged by your champions for a special witness, nthat the Church of Rome had never any heresy, onor changed ought in faith; pSigebert condemneth it in the Pope as *novelty, and (though half afraid to call it so) heresy. This is the golden image which your Nebuchadnezzar hath raised up to be worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it up, and commandeth you to fall down before it. Though he have ensnared you with his meat and drink: yet learn of your fellow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you have not the courage to do it where you are, qas Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: return out of Babylon into your native country, & rserve the Lord with fear, not in sthe high places, but in this holy temple. But if you will neither return unto us, & will persist there to be the Popes slaves, heretics, & traitors: I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have warned you to turn from your wickedness; I have discharged my duty; your blood upon your own heads.
Much more, to adde thereto, that 2the things and matters wherein they haue to gouerne, are onely temporall, not spirituall. Bu••o say, that 3the Pope may depriue them of their kingdomes, nor onely take from them some of their subiects in all causes, & all their subiects in some causes, but all their subiects and causes both, it is so vngodly: that mSigebert, a moonke, who liued ⟨p. 28⟩fiue hundred yeares since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first vsurpe that power against the Emperour Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleaged by your champions for a speciall witnesse, nthat the Church of Rome had neuer any heresie, onor changed ought in faith; pSigebert condemneth it in the Pope as *noueltie, and (though halfe afraid to cal it so) heresie. This is the golden image which your Nabuchodonosor hath raised vp to bee worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it vp, and commaundeth you to fall downe before it. Though he haue ensnared you with his meate and drinke: yet learne of your felow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you haue not the courage to doo it where you are, qas Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: returne out of Babylon into your natiue country, & rserue the Lord with feare, not in sthe hye places, but in this holy temple. But if you will neither returne vnto vs, & will persist there to be the Popes slaues, heretikes, & traitors: I call heauen and earth to witnesse this day, that I haue warned you to turnē from your wickednes; I haue discharged my dutie; your bloud vpon your owne heads.
2As the Rhemists do, in their Annot. on Heb. 5.•.As the Rhe•mists doo, in their Annot. on Heb. 5.•.
3As Sanders, Bristow, Surius, and all the Papists do in maintenance of the Popes Bulls against Princes.As Sanders, Bristow, Surius, and all the Papists doo in maintenance of the Popes Bulls against Princes.
mSigebertus Monachus Gen•blacen•is.
nSander. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa non sit Antichrist.Sander. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa nō sit Antichrist.
oCampian. Ration. 7.
pIn Chronico. ad annū Christi. 1088.In Chronico. ad annū Christi. 1088.
*Haec sola novitas, non dicam haeresis.Haec sola nouitas, non dicam haeresis.
the oth of the Queenes supremacie. And your mindes are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them, as the Donatists did, who loued their errours better then their liues. Great zeale, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin; your Fathers were abused by Phariseis & Rabbines: your Pope hath vs•rped ouer all Christian states; your Priesthoode is impious; your Masse, abominatiō; your Popish faith, heresie; our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie, & oth thereto, our ministerie of the word, of sacraments,
⟨p. 15⟩
of prayers, agreeth with the Gospell, and therefore is holy. Which thinges sith this Conference, that one of your Seminarie-Priests, and I haue had, doth open & proue: peruse it (• beseech you) with equitie and iudgement;
was of sounder lerning, then that the reasons, which I (
I was faine to go whence I came: and leaue him, as I found him. Now, if they themselues thinke this to be true, which they haue geuen out: they may boldely suffer you to reade our Conference, that you may see the triumphe, which a noble champiō of yours, a holy Priest, a Bacheler of Diuinitie, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an vnlerned Minister, and yet the lernedst of that sort. But if they will not giue you leaue to reade it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholers, and base wordes of vs, are but sleights of policie; as many vauntes & lyes be in the same pamphlets wherein these are writen.
•
9Re insecta, unde venit, •ecessit.Re insecta, vnde venit, •ecessit.
his felowes also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you haue the spirite of Daniel and his felowes: you wil see as much in the Popes double loue, and liberalitie. Sure, hee geueth iuster cause to distrust it, then the King did. For, the Kings drift in trayning vp them, that they might stand before him, was only that
of the blood royall, and seede of the nobilitie, he had a farder drift: it was but the assurance of their land of Iuda. But you are trained vp by the Pope to serue him in prouinces abroade, not in his palace at home;
examples may suffice to shew it: euen Ludouicus Viues, Iohannes Molanus, and Carolus Sigonius. For Viues had vttered (in
the Martyrologe of Vsuarde, with notes of his owne, and D. Hessels Censure on certaine stories of Saints, had therein discredited not onely forged writings, bearing false titles, as
Simeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defense of the Masse, of merites, of moonkrie, of nunnerie, of the worship of Saintes, of relikes, of images, and other superstitions and errours of Poperie, doth stand on the credit of these records and euidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and tolde thereof
Masters doo teach you, that if they indeuor to withdraw their subiects to infidelitie or heresie, then ought they not to raigne: and the Pope, as iudge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that
