The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. Nay, the days of other Saints, which you celebrate, as namely of Peter, Paul, and John, are the days of their death, and so are proper unto them. Wherefore you should of reason at the least celebrate our ladies assumption, as the day of her death. For though you believe not that her body is assumed, yet you will not (we trow) deny that she is dead, and her soul in glory. But you do neither celebrate that, nor any other of her proper feasts. For as for the days of her purification and annunciation, they be not proper to our Lady: but the one to Christs conception, the other to his presentation. So that she by this means shall have no festivity at all.
Hart. Nay, the dayes of other Saintes, which you celebrate, as namely of Peter, Paul, and Iohn, are the dayes of their death, and so are proper vnto them. Wherefore you should of reason at the least celebrate our ladies assumption, as the day of her death. For though you beléeue not that her bodie is assumpted, yet you wil not (we trow) deny that she is dead, and her soule in glory. But you doo neither celebrate that, nor any other of her proper feastes. For as for the dayes of her purification and annuntiation, they be not proper to our Ladie: but the one to Christes conception, the other to his presentation. So that she by this meanes shall haue no festiuitie at all.
Diana, and the Saints of Christ to the Paynim-gods: who every one must have his feast, and if you forget or pass over any, their honour is attainted in it. But by this sentence you justify the reformed Churches: both the rest, and ours. The rest, in that you think the holy days of Saints are instituted to their honour: which corrupt opinion, and superstition growing of it, might be a sufficient cause to abolish them. Ours, in that you say that the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper to our Lady (as you call her,) but to Christ. Wherein you acknowledge, that the holy days of Saints which we keep, are kept to Christs honour, and not to theirs. For as the annunciation of the blessed virgin is proper unto
the prayers which we make, and the parts of scripture which we read on those days. Wherefore although we celebrate the memory of these things touching the Apostles, on those days on which they dyed, perhaps, (for neither are you sure of that, though you celebrate them in memory of their death:) yet we do it not in respect of their death so to honour their assumption, but in respect of those things which Christ did by them while they lived. And by the same reason you may prove that we keep no holy day to any Saint, by the which you gather •hat the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper unto her. Which in deed you say, not because you think it, or have cause to think it: but to make us odious, by bearing men in hand that we despise the blessed virgin. For both your selves do count them and call them
her feasts, as well as any other of those that bear her name: and the common people, when they call the annunciation day, our Lady day, (by your corrupt custom,) think it as proper unto her, as S. Peters is to him:
Rainoldes. No festiuitie at all? What a foolish fansie is this of your rRhemists? As though the blessed virgin were like to *Diana, and the Saintes of Christ to the Paynim-gods: who euerie one must haue his feast, and if you forget or passe ouer any, their honour is attainted in it. But by this sentence you iustifie the reformed Churches: both the rest, and ours. The rest, in that you thinke the holy dayes of Saintes are instituted to their honour: which corrupt opinion, and superstition growing of it, might be a sufficient cause to abolish them. Ours, in that you say that the annuntiation and purification of the virgin are not proper to our Ladie (as you cal her,) but to Christ. Wherein you acknowledge, that the holy dayes of Saintes which we keepe, are kept to Christes honour, and not to theirs. For as the annuntiation of the blessed virgin is proper vnto sChrist conceiued, and the purification to tChrist presented ⟨p. 479⟩in the temple: so the day of Peter is proper vnto uChrist professed, the day of Paul to xChrist preached, the day of Iohn to yChrist published by the writing of the Gospell. And this of them is as cléere, as is the other of the virgin, by zthe prayers which we make, and the partes of scripture which wee reade on those dayes. Wherefore although we celebrate the memorie of these thinges touching the Apostles, on those daies on which they dyed, perhaps, (for neither are you sure of that, though you celebrate them in memorie of their death:) yet we do it not in respect of their death so to honour their assumption, but in respect of those thinges which Christ did by them while they liued. And by the same reason you may proue that we keepe no holy day to any Saint, by the which you gather •hat the annunciation and purification of the virgin are not proper vnto her. Which in deed you say, not because you thinke it, or haue cause to thinke it: but to make vs odious, by bearing men in hand that we despise the blessed virgin. For both your selues doo count them and call them aher feastes, as well as anie other of those that beare her name: and the common people, when they cal the annuntiation day, our Ladie day, (by your corrupt custome,) thinke it as proper vnto her, as S. Peters is to him:
zThe collects, epistles, & Gospels (as they are termed) in the book of common prayer▪The collects, epistles, & Gospels (as they are termed) in the booke of common praier▪
aFesta Sanctae Mariae: Purificationis, Annuntiationis, Visitationis, Assumptionis, Nativitatis, Conceptionis: & S. Mariae ad Nives. Missale Romanum in ordinario Missae.Festa Sanctae Mariae: Purificationis, Annuntiationis, Visitationis, Assumptionis, Natiuitatis, Conceptionis: & S. Mariae ad Niues. Missale Romanum in ordinario Missae.
and bthe reformed Churches, which disallow the feasts of Saints, have disallowe• these amongst them, where yet they allow the feasts that do belong to Christ, his nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the holy Ghost.
and bthe reformed Churches, which disallow the feastes of Saintes, haue disallowe• these amongst them, where yet they allow the feastes that doo belong to Christ, his natiuitie, circumcision, passion, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the holy Ghost.
bConfes•io Heluetica cap. 24. Sect. 16. in Harmon. Confess. fid.
Hart. But if your reformed Churches think it dangerous to keep any feast of the blessed virgin: why do you retain two of them in your Church, and not the rest as we do.
Hart. But if your reformed Churches thinke it dangerous to kéepe anie feast of the blessed virgin: why doo you retaine two of them in your Church, and not the rest as we doo.
Rainoldes. You may learn the reason hereof in your Portesse, reformed lately by the Pope. In your old cPortesse there was this prayer to the Popes martyr, S. Thomas Becket of Canterbury:
Christ Jesus,
per Thomae vulnera,
Quae nos ligant.
relaxa scelera.
By Thomas wounds,
O Christ Jesus,
Loose thou the sins▪
which do bind us.
Or, if you will have better rime, with as bad reason:⟨p. 480⟩
Tu per Thomae sanguinem
quem pro te impendit,
Fac nos Christe scandere
quo Thomas a•cendit.
By the blood of Thomas
which he for thee did spend,
Make us O Christ to clime
whether he did a••end.
Rainoldes. You may learne the reason hereof in your Portesse, reformed lately by the Pope. In your olde cPortesse there was this prayer to the Popes martyr, S. Thomas Becket of Canterbury:
Christe Iesu,
per Thomae vulnera,
Quae nos ligant.
relaxa scelera.
By Thomas woundes,
O Christ Iesus,
Loose thou the sinnes▪
which do binde vs.
Or, if you will haue better ryme, with as bad reason:⟨p. 480⟩
Tu per Thomae sanguinem
quem pro te impendit,
Fac nos Christe scandere
quo Thomas a•cendit.
By the blood of Thomas
which he for thee did spend,
Make vs O Christ to clime
whether he did a••end.
cPortiforium seu breviarium, ad usum ecclesiae Sarum: in festo S. Thomae Can••ariensis.Portiforium seu breuiarium, ad vsum ecclesiae Sarum: in festo S. Thomae Can••ariensis.
Hart. This is your common objection against our prayers to Saints: but an objection for a Cobbler, and not for a Divine, as D. dHarding told Jewell. For Christ, in this prayer, is used as the only mediator of salvation: S. Thomas, a mediator of intercession to Christ.
Hart. This is your common obiection against our prayers to Saintes: but an obiection for a Cobler, and not for a Diuine, as D. dHarding told Iewell. For Christ, in this prayer, is vsed as the onely mediator of salua•ion: S. Thomas, a mediator of intercession to Christ.
Rainoldes. Good words, M. Hart. Your plaster, of mediators of intercession and salvation, is too narrow for this sore. Your pang doth make you not to see it.
Rainoldes. Good words, M. Hart. Your plaister, of mediators of intercession and saluation, is too narrow for this soare. Your pang doth make you not to sée it.
Hart. Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we give to Saints, is so far inferior to the divine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for us, we say not so to him, we do not think of him so basely, but we desire him to have mercy upon us. Wherefore, we make him only mediator of salvation; and them, of intercession.
Hart. Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we giue to Saintes, is so farre inferiour to the diuine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for vs, we say not so to him, we doo not thinke of him so basely, but wée desire him to haue mercy vpon vs. Wherefore, we make him onely mediatour of saluation; and them, of intercession.
Rainoldes. Yet is your plaster too narrow for the sore which you apply it too. For the blood and wounds of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spake off. And although you think not of intercession generally, as ethe scripture doth, which maketh it proper to fthe only mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus: yet (I hope) you think of that intercession by the blood and wounds, that it is his alone, who gave him self a ransom for us, and gredeemed us with his precious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might be made a mediator of intercession in this preeminent sort: that can not heal your Portesse. For it doth make him flatly a mediator of salvation: not only to pray for us, but to have mercy upon us.
Op•• nobis
ô Thoma porrige:
Rege stantes,
jacentes erige:
Mores, actus,
& vitam corrig•:
Et in paci•
nos viam dirige.
⟨p. 481⟩Salve Thoma,
virga justitiae,
Mundi jubar,
robur ecclesiae,
Plebis amor,
cleri deliciae:
Salve gregis
tutor egregie,
Salua tuae
gaudentes gloriae.
*O Thomas reach
thy help to us:
Stay them that stand,
raise them that lie:
Correct our manners,
deeds & life:
Guide us into
the way of peace.
⟨p. 481⟩All hail ô Thom,
the rod of right,
The worlds light,
the churches strength,
The peoples love,
the clergies joy:
All hail brave patron
of the flock,
Save them who in
thine honour glee.
This prayer, which giveth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your hreformed Portesse: iwhere yet there is a prayer which giveth as great honour to an other creature, even to a wooden cross.
O crux, ••e, ipes unica,
Ho• passionis tempore,
Auge piis justitiam,
Reisque dona veniam.
All hail ô cross, our only hope,
In this time of the passion,
Increase thou justice to the godly,
And give to sinners pardon.
Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why have you retained this, to the cross, and not the other to S. Thomas.
Rainoldes. Yet is your plaister too narrow for the soare which you apply it too. For the blood and woundes of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spake off. And although you thinke not of intercession generally, as ethe scripture doth, which maketh it proper to fthe only mediatour betweene God and man, the man Christ Iesus: yet (I hope) you thinke of that intercession by the blood and woundes, that it is his alone, who gaue him selfe a raunsome for vs, and gredeemed vs with his pretious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might bée made a mediatour of intercession in this preeminent sort: that can not heale your Portesse. For it doth make him •latly a mediatour of saluation: not onely to pray for vs, but to haue mercy vpon vs.
Op•• nobis
ô Thoma porrige:
Rege stantes,
iacentes erige:
Mores, actus,
& vitam corrig•:
Et in paci•
nos viam dirige.
⟨p. 481⟩Salue Thoma,
virga iustitiae,
Mundi iubar,
robur ecclesiae,
Plebis amor,
cleri deliciae:
Salue gregis
tutor egregie,
Salua tuae
gaudentes gloriae.
*O Thomas reach
thy helpe to vs:
Stay them that stand,
raise them that lie:
Correct our maners,
deedes & life:
Guide vs into
the way of peace.
⟨p. 481⟩All haile ô Thom,
the rodde of right,
The worldes light,
the churches strength,
The peoples loue,
the clergies ioye:
All haile braue patrone
of the flocke,
Saue them who in
thine honour glee.
This praier, which giueth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your hreformed Portesse: iwhere yet there is a prayer which giueth as great honour to an other creature, euen to a woodden crosse.
O •rux, ••e, ipes vnica,
Ho• passionis tempore,
Auge piis iustitiam,
Reisque dona veniam.
All haile ô crosse, our onely hope,
In this time of the passion,
Encrease thou iustice to the godly,
And giue to sinners pardon.
Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why haue you retained this, to the crosse, and not the other to S. Thomas.
*This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace thereof is half lost for lack of •yme: which in the Latin is very good.This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace therof is halfe lost for lacke of •yme: which in the Latin is very good.
hBre•iarium Roman. […] decret. Sacrosanct concil. Trid. •estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint.Bre•iarium Roman. 〈…〉 decret. Sacrosanct concil. Trid. •estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint.
Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterbury were in the Roman Portesse, before they reformed it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the use of Sarum.
Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterburie were in the Roman Portesse, before they reformed it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the vse of Sarum.
Rainoldes. Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacy. But whether it were or no: there were other things 1uncertain and 2inconvenient, which the reformers have left out, as kthe Pope confesseth. Who lconfesseth also, that almost all Primers, yea the Latin too, 3were stuffed full with vain errors of superstitions, before he reformed it. Wherefore sith you have left out other superstitious & inconvenient things, in your reformed Service-books: why have you retained this prayer to the cross, which might have gone with the rest?
Rainoldes. Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacie. But whether it were or no: there were other thinges 1vncertaine and 2inconuenient, which the reformers haue left out, as kthe Pope confesseth. Who lconfesseth also, that almost al Primers, yea the Latin too, 3were stuffed full with vaine errours of superstitions, before he reformed it. Wherefore sith you haue left out other superstitious & inconuenient things, in your reformed Seruice-bookes: why haue you retained this prayer to the crosse, which might haue gone with the rest?
1In cer•a.
2Aliena.
kPope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breviar. reformat.Pope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breuiar. reformat.
Hart. The other were abolished justly, as unfit. But this is •ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the cross, of which S. mPaul saith, God forbid that I should rejoice but in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Hart. The other were a•olished iustly, as vnfit. But this is •ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the crosse, of which S. mPaule saith, God forbid that I should reioyce but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ?
Rainoldes. That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paul doth mean it: not in the 1wood, the 2gallows, the 3tree, 4to which you make your prayer. For God forbid that we should rejoice in any thing, saving nin the Lord: whose redeeming of us by suffering death upon the cross, because it was a stumbling block to the Jews; S. Paul saith othe cross was a stumbling block, by a *figurative speech, meaning (as him self doth open it) pChrist crucified. And so he calleth Christs blood, qthe blood of the cross; and the preaching of his gospel, rthe preaching of the cross; and persecution rising of it, spersecution for the cross: and against them who rejoiced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he rejoiceth not but in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reformed your Service-books, thought, that of the prayers which we do mislike they might abolish some and retain others: what if amongst the feasts which others do mislike, they, who reformed our ceremonies, retained the annunciation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, nativity, and assumption? Chiefly seeing that in those, which they retained, they regarded the honour of Christ conceived and presented, as your selves acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they removed the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feasts instituted to a Saints honour, as they were indeed: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that whereof the memory was celebrated in them: and they maintain corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christs honour. For tyou mean by the feasts of her nativity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceived in sin. Which if it were so▪ then neither she needed Christ to be uher Saviour, who came to save sinners: & the prerogative of Christ, yto be severed from sinners, were common unto her with him.x A thing so absurd and contrary to the scriptures, (which show that zall have sinned, and aare the children of wrath by nature,) that not bthe Fathers only, but your chief cSchool-men, and dCanons also, do gainsay it. Yea the ⟨p. 483⟩feast of her conception, when it was creeping in, was therefore ereproved:
Rainoldes. That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paule doth meane it: not in the 1wood, the 2galowes, the 3tree, 4to which you make your prayer. For God forbidde that wee should reioyce in any thing, sauing nin the Lord: whose redéeming of vs by suffering death vpon the crosse, because it was a stumbling blocke to the Iewes; S. Paule saith othe crosse was a stumbling blocke, by a *figuratiue spéech, meaning (as him selfe doth open it) pChrist crucified. And so he calleth Christes blood, qthe blood of the crosse; and the preaching of his gospell, rthe preaching of the crosse; and persecution rising of it, spersecution for the crosse: and against them who reioyced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he reioyceth not but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reformed your Seruice-bookes, thought, that of the prayers which we doo mislike they might abolish some and retaine others: what if amongst the feastes which others doo mislike, they, who reformed our ceremonies, retained the annuntiation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, natiuitie, and assumption? Chiefly séeing that in those, which they reteined, they regarded the honour of Christ conceiued and presented, as your selues acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they remoued the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feastes instituted to a Saintes honour, as they were indéede: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that wherof the memorie was celebrated in them: and they maintaine corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christes honour. For
1Regnavit a ligno De•s.Regnauit a ligno De•s.
2Suspensus est paribulo.
3Arbour decora & fulgid•, Or na•• aegis purpura. Electa digno •••pite […] sancta membra tangere:Arbor decora & fulgid•, Or na•••egis purpura. Electa digno •••pite 〈…〉 sancta membra tangere:
4Be•ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam•ue tulit Tartari, O crux, •ue spes unica, & quae sequuntur.Be•ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam•ue tulit Tartari, O crux, •ue spes vnica, & quae sequūtur.
and the very gloss of your fCanon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for keeping it. But the conception and nativity of the blessed virgin make her scarce equal unto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somewhat higher. For when Christ was taken up into heaven: gthe Apostles were lead forth a little way on foot, to see it and witness it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in clouds, as in chariots, from all the coasts of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and call again, a fable, or if you will, a lye, as hBede doth: though your Divines of Rhemes do vouch it as a true story.
and the very glose of your fCanon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for kéeping it. But the conception and natiuitie of the blessed virgin make her scarse equall vnto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somwhat higher. For when Christ was taken vp into heauen: gthe Apostles were lead forth a litleway on foote, to sée it and witnes it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in cloudes, as in chariots, from all the coastes of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and cal againe, a fable, or if you will, a lye, as hBede doth: though your Diuines of Rhemes doo vouch it as a true storie.
Hart. It is a true story, as our Divines of Rhemes do •ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lye. For ihe reported it to have been done the second year after Christs ascension▪ which Bede doth prove it could not be. But our Divines refer it to the fifteenth year after. For they take the common opinion that she lived three score and three years in all. Now, kshe brought forth Christ when she was fifteen year old. So that her assumption was eight and forty years after Christs nativity. And this agreeth with lEusebius, who saith that some do write it was revealed to them that she was assumed the eight and forteeth year of Christ: which was fifteen years after his ascension.
Hart. It is a true storie, as our Diuines of Rhemes doo •ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lye. For ihe reported it to haue béene doon the second yeare after Christes ascension▪ which Bede doth proue it could not be. But our Diuines referre it to the fifteenth yeare after. For they take the common opinion that she liued three score and three yeares in all. Now, kshee brought forth Christ when she was fifteene yeare olde. So that her assumption was eight and fortie yeares after Christs natiuitie. And this agréeth with lEusebius, who saith yt some do write it was reueled to them that she was assumpted the eight and forteeth yeare of Christ: which was fifteene yeares after his ascension.
you meane by the feastes of her natiuity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceiued in sinne. Which if it were so▪ then neither she néeded Christ to be
bAmbros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psal•. 1.11•. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. concion. 2. & contr. Julian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. justit. c. 21. Leo de nativit. •om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Bede l. 1 ••Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. •• 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174.Ambros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psal•. 1.11•. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. concion. 2. & contr. Iu•ian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. iustit. c. 21. Leo de natiuit. •om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Beda l. 1 ••Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. •• 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174.
eBernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Belleth. in explicat. divin. offic. c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7.Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Beleth. in explicat. diuin. offic. c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7.
