The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. But your eCanus saith that Thomas was a young man then: beside that, he was greatly affected to Damascene. And Damascene might easily persuade a well willer: he doth affirm so lustily that *all the east and west is witness that the thing is true. Which report of his yet Canus doth marvel at: sith it is unknown in all the Latin story. But fCanus (as a man of better mind and sounder judgement then your Popish Doctors are, the most of them,) did wisely see & noteth freely, that not only later and less discreet authors (as he who made the golden legend,) but also grave, ancient, learned, holy Fathers have overshot them selves in writing miracles of Saints: partly while they fetched the truth, where it is seldom, 1from common rumours and reports; partly while 2they sought to please the peoples humour, and thought it lawful for historians to write things as true which commonly are counted true. Of this sort he nameth 3Gregory and 4Bede: the one for his Dialogues, the other for his English story. He might have named Damascene with them. Unless he meant him rather perhaps to be of that sort which did not only take by hear-say of others, but coined lies themselves too: & wrote those things of Saints 5which their fancy liked, though neither true nor likely. As that S. Francis 6was wont to take life that were shaken off, and put them on himself, it was a lousy trick, and S. Francis did it not: but the writer thought it an argument of his holiness. Likewise, that when the devil troubled S. Dominic, S. Dominic constrained 7
him to hold a candle in his hands, till the candle being spent did put him to great grief, in burning his fingers. Such examples there are innumerable: but these two may give a taste of their affection who
⟨p. 498⟩
have defiled the stories of Saints with filthy fables. Yet out of such stories many things are read in your Church-service. And
Canus although he confess it, as evident: notwithstanding, (which is strange) he thinketh them unwise Bishops, who seek to reform it. For while they cure the nailesore (saith he) they hurt the head: that is, in stead of counterfeits they bring in grave stories; but they change the service of the Church so far, that scarce any
show of the old religion is remaining in it. A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed.
Rainoldes. But your eCanus saith that Thomas was a young man then: beside that, he was greatly affected to Damascen. And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer: he doth affirme so lustily that *all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true. Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at: sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story. But fCanus (as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are, ye most of them,) did wisely sée & noteth fréely, that not onely later and lesse discreete autours (as he who made the golden legend,) but also graue, ancient, learned, holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes: partly while they fetched the truth, where it is seldom, 1from common rumors and reportes; partly while 2they sought to please the peoples humor, and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which cōmonly are counted true. Of this sorte he nameth 3Gregorie and 4Bede: the one for his Dialogues, the other for his English story. He might haue named Damascene with them. Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others, but coyned lyes themselues too: & wrote those thinges of Saintes 5which their fansie liked, though neither true nor likely. As that S. Frauncis 6was wont to take lise that were shaken off, and put them on himselfe, it was a lowsie tricke, and S. Frauncis did it not: but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse. Likewise, that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike, S. Dominike constrained 7him to hold a candle in his handes, till the candle being spent did put him to great grief, in burning his fingers. Such examples there are innumerable: but these two may giue a taste of their affection who ⟨p. 498⟩haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables. Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice. And gCanus although he confesse it, as euident: notwithstanding, (which is straunge) he thinketh them vnwise Bishops, who seeke to reforme it. For while they cure the nailesore (saith he) they hurt the head: that is, in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories; but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre, that scarce any 8shew of the olde religion is remaining in it. A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed.
eLocor. Theologic. l. 11. c. 2.
*[Greek or Hebrew].〈non-Latin alphabet〉.
fLocor. Theol. lib. 11. cap 6.
1Ex dissipatis peruagatisque rumoribus.
2Indulserunt fidelium vulgo.
3Gregorius in Dialogis.
4Bede in historia Anglorum.Beda in historia Anglorum.
5Quae animus scribentis dictat.
6Pediculos semel excussos in seipsum soli•itum esse immittere.
7Diabolum, ut haberet lucernam in manibusDiabolum, vt haberet lucernam in manibus
For though they have removed some of those stories, which Canus saith are 9uncertain, forged, frivolous, and false: yet have they done it sparingly. If they should have left out all those legend-toys: their Portesse had been like our book of common prayer, which heretics would have laughed at: and there had remained no show in a manner of the old religion, save that their service is in Latin.
For though they haue remoued some of those stories, which Canus saith are 9vncertaine, forged, friuolous, and false: yet haue they doon it sparingly. If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes: their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer, which heretikes would haue laught at: and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion, saue that their seruice is in Latin.
Hart. These things are impertinent, but that it pleaseth you to play the Hick-scorner with the holy Portesse. For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life? or S. Dominikes? or the golden legend, that old moth-eaten book (as D. hHarding calleth it,) of the lives of Saints? I mind not to press you with things of later writers, but of old and ancient: whom Canus judgeth better of, then of the younger. For ihe saith of Vincentius Beluacensis, and Antoninus, that they cared not so much to write things true and certain, as to let go nothing that they found written in any papers whatsoever. But of Bede, and Gregory, he judgeth more softly: and rather excuseth them then reproveth them. Though, judge he how he listed, he was but one Doctor: and other learned men perhaps mislike his judgement, both for younger and elder writers.
Hart. These thinges are impertinent, but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse. For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life? or S. Dominikes? or the golden legend, that old moth-eaten booke (as D. hHarding calleth it,) of the liues of Saintes? I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers, but of olde and ancient: whom Canus iudgeth better of, then of the younger. For ihe saith of Vincentius Beluacensis, and Antoninus, that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine, as to let go nothing that they found writē in any papers whatsoeuer. But of Bede, and Gregorie, he iudgeth more softly: and rather excuseth them then reproueth them. Though, iudge he how he listed, he was but one Doctour: and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement, both for younger and elder writers.
hIn the D• section lib. 4.In the D••ection lib. 4.
Rainoldes. They who deal with taming of lions (I have read) are wont, when they find them somewhat out of order, to beat dogs before them: that in a dog the lion may see his own desert. Even so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life, or of S. Dominikes, or of the moth-eaten book as you call it, *though he who wrote it was an Archbishop, & in his time a man of name, and his book a legend, read publicly ⟨p. 496⟩in Churches, and called golden for the excellency; but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer, or Antoninus (if you will,) and Vincentius Beluacensis, who are as good as he wellnigh: you must not think I do it for the dogs sake, but for the lions rather, I mean the ancient writers who deserve rebuke too. For, as not kRupertus only, but lSedulius, do write that our Saviour after his resurrection appeared first to the blessed virgin, which is false, but they thought through an affection to her, that he should have done so: in like sort a loving affection to Saints hath transported sundry, not only later writers, but ancienter also from the truth to fancies. Gelasius, and the seventy Bishops, who were assembled in a Council with him, were assembled about eleven hundred years ago. Yet even then how many stories of the Saints were set abroad with forged fables? almost a whole bead-roll, mcondemned by the Council. Whereof that some were coined upon that affection, as some upon others: one of them, entitled nthe acts of Paul and Thecla, may serve for an example. These acts contained a story (supposed to be omitted in the oacts of the Apostles) how that when S. Paul did preach at Iconium, Thecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman, hearing him preach of maidenhood, forsook her husband by and by, and went away with him: and thereupon was persecuted, and delivered from great dangers, and wrought many miracles, and travailed through sundry countries with S. Paul. Which though it be a lewd tale, agreeing neither with pthe circumstance of S. Pauls story, nor with his qdoctrine and rdiscretion: yet was it published as true, and that in the Apostles age, sby an Elder, or Priest, (as you would term him,) who was convicted by S. John, and confessed that he wrote it for *good will that he bare to Paul. Such a credit (belike) he thought it would be to S.
Rainoldes. They who deale with taming of lyons (I haue read) are wont, when they finde them somewhat out of order, to beate dogges before them: that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert. Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life, or of S. Dominikes, or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it, *though he who wrote it was an Archbishop, & in his time a man of name, and his booke a legend, read publikely ⟨p. 496⟩in Churches, and called golden for the excellencie; but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer, or Antoninus (if you will,) and Vincentius Beluacensis, who are as good as he welnigh: you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake, but for the lions rather, I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too. For, as not kRupertus onely, but lSedulius, doo write that our Sauiour after his resurrection appeered first to the blessed virgin, which is false, but they thought through an affection to her, that he should haue done so: in like sort a louing affection to Saintes hath transported sundry, not onely later writers, but auncienter also from the truth to fansies. Gelasius, and the seuentie Bishops, who were assembled in a Councel with him, were assembled about eleuen hundred yeares ago. Yet euen then how manie stories of the Saintes were set abroade with forged fables? almost a whole bead-roale, mcondemned by the Councell. Whereof that some were coyned vpon that affection, as some vpon others: one of them, entitled nthe actes of Paule and Tecla, may serue for an example. These actes contained a storie (supposed to be omitted in the oactes of the Apostles) how that when S. Paule did preach at Iconium, Tecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman, hearing him preach of maidenhood, forsooke her husband by and by, and went away with him: and thereupon was persecuted, and deliuered from great dangers, and wrought many miracles, and trauailed through sundry countries with S. Paule. Which though it be a lewd tale, agréeing neither with pthe circumstance of S. Paules storie, nor with his
*James the Archbishop o• Genua in Italy.Iames the Archbishop o• Genua in Italy.
kDe divin. offic. l. 7. c. 15.De diuin. offic. l. 7. c. 15.
lOper. Pascal. lib. 5.
mc. Sancta Romana. distinct. 15.
nLiber Actuum Teclae & Pauli.
oThe fourteenth chapter of the Acts.The foureteenth chapter of the Actes.
Paul, that a maid betrothed to a man of wealth and worship, (and so 1his wife by right,) should forsake her husband and go away with him. Wherefore, though you mind not to press me with things of later writers, but of old & ancient, as you say: yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like authority. For neither do I know what number of years you will think sufficient to prove a writer old: and though you account none old, but such as lived many hundred ⟨p. 497⟩years since; yet are their fables in your Portesse (as namely uthis of Thecla) even out of them also. Yea the most of those things, not only this of Thecla, but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome, and the Council, condemned for unsound: I say, the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends, and in the most of your Portesses. Which thing I affirm not of mine own knowledge, for I have not seen so many sorts of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most: but xClaudius Espencaeus, a Doctor of Paris, an eager enemy of Beza (, the worthier of credit herein,) affirmeth it, and he affirmeth it with great asseveration that it is so 1undoubtedly. Nor doth he touch them only for these so ancient lies, but for many more, which are of less ancientie, and that upon the judgement of sundry learned men, and not his private fancy. For he allegeth yPeter, a venerable Abbot, (who lived four hundred years ago,) saying, that the songs and hymns of the Church had very many toys: as namely an hymn in the praise of S. Benet; in the which, though reading it over somewhat hastily, and staying not to search all, yet he found 2at least four and twenty lies. He allegeth an other zPeter complaining likewise and reproving a false and fond hymn in the praise of S. Mawre running upon the waters. He allegeth the aCardinal of Aliacos advise to the Council of Constance, for order to be taken that 3unsound writings (corrupt and peevish pamphlets) be not read in the Church-service. He allegeth the oration of the bEarle of Mirandula to Pope Leo the tenth, and the Council of Lateran, renewing the Cardinal of Aliacos advise. He allegeth cRaphael Volaterran, a great historian, if not a divine, bewailing the case that in the daily prayers there are 4manifest lies read.
Paule, that a maide betrothed to a man of wealth and worship, (and so 1his wife by right,) should forsake her husband and goe away with him. Wherefore, though you minde not to presse me with thinges of later writers, but of old & ancient, as you say: yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like autoritie. For neither doo I know what number of yeares you will thinke sufficient to proue a writer old: and though you account none olde, but such as liued many hundred ⟨p. 497⟩yeares since; yet are their fables in your Portesse (as namely uthis of Tecla) euen out of them also. Yea the most of those things, not onely this of Tecla, but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome, and the Councell, condemned for vnsound: I say, the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends, and in the most of your Portesses. Which thing I affirme not of mine owne knowlege, for I haue not séene so many sortes of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most: but xClaudius Espencaeus, a Doctor of Paris, an eger enimie of Beza (, ye worthier of credit herein,) affirmeth it, and he affirmeth it with great asseueration that it is so 1vndoutedly. Nor doth he touch them onely for these so ancient lyes, but for many mo, which are of lesse ancientie, and that vpon the iudgement of sundry learned men, and not his priuate fansie. For he alleageth yPeter, a venerable Abbat, (who liued foure hundred yeares agoe,) saying, that the songs and hymnes of the Church had very many toyes: as namely an hymne in the praise of S. Benet; in the which, though reading it ouer somewhat hastily, and staying not to search all, yet he found 2at least foure and twentie lyes. He alleageth an other zPeter complayning likewise and reprouing a false and fond hymne in the praise of S. Mawre running vpon the waters. He alleageth the aCardinall of Aliacos aduise to the Councell of Constance, for order to be taken that
uThamiride sponso relicto. In Breviar. Roman. edit. a Pi• quinto. In festis Septembr.Thamiride sponso relicto. In Breuiar. Roman. edit. a Pi• quinto. In festis Septembr.
xComment. in 2. epist. ad Timoth. c. 4. Digress. 21.
He allegeth dAdrian (who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth) misliking 5superstitious forgeries in holy matters. In a word, he saith that the Catholics may lament in the behalf of the Church, as eJeremiah lamented in the behalf of the Synagogue, Thy prophets have seen 6false and foolish things for thee: and he addeth that the grief which he doth feel and open for these 7toys & dotages crept into the public service of the Church, is common unto him with all good men for the most part. Wherein, as his desire and zeal of reformation is greater then Canus, who would not have this filth swept ⟨p. 498⟩out of the Portesses: so dealeth he more freely and frankly with your churches legends too, then Canus. For, letting go the scurf of the golden legend, and Antoninus, and Vincentius, he reproveth the story of Saints which was compiled of late by fa Venetian, a Bishop of account, and saith that no stable is •o full of dung, as that is of fables. Yea farther, that Simeon Metaphrastes (a great man in the new legends of gLipomanus, and hSurius,) and Usuardes Martyrology, (which is the Church of Romes legend,) besides the Martyrologes of certain other writers, 1are fraught with much baggage. Now, to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus, and the authors whom he allegeth, you may add the kings professors and chiefest Doctors of Lovan, (if you desire more witnesses,) even Hessels, and Molanus. Of whom,i the one, writing a Censure on a story called the Passional of Saints, condemneth much thereof, and indicteth more, with this verdict, kTry all things, hold that which is good: the other, lsetting forth and commending that Censure, saith it is no marvel if in that Passional there be corrupt stories, sith the stories which the Catholics of that country found amongst 2the lying Greeks might easily come into it. Molanus layeth the fault upon the lying Greeks, as they deserve it best indeed. Notwithstanding it appeareth by *some, whom either Hes•els or himself have censured, that not the Greeks alone are faulty. And sundry Greeks are faulty whom he would be loth to call lying Greeks: as namely Nicephorus, & Simeon Metaphrastes, of the newer writers; & of the ancienter, Palladius, and Cassianus. Of all whom mMolanus hath given this note, that most learned men do judge them 3not worthy to be greatly credited.
He alleageth dAdrian (who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth) misliking 5superstitious forgeries in holy matters. In a word, he saith that the Catholikes may lament in the behalfe of the Church, as eIeremie lamented in the behalfe of the Synagogue, Thy prophets haue seene 6false and foolish things for thee: and he addeth that the griefe which he doth feele and open for these 7toyes & dotages crept into the publike seruice of the Church, is common vnto him with all good men for the most part. Wherein, as his desire and zeale of reformation is greater then Canus, who would not haue this filth swept ⟨p. 498⟩out of the Portesses: so dealeth he more fréely and frankly with your churches legends too, then Canus. For, letting go the scurffe of the golden legend, and Antoninus, and Vincentius, hee reproueth the storie of Saintes which was compiled of late by fa Venetian, a Bishop of account, and saith that no stable is •o ful of doong, as that is of fables. Yea farther, that Simeon Metaphrastes (a great man in the new legends of gLipomanus, and hSurius,) and Vsuardes Martyrologe, (which is the Church of Romes legend,) besides the Martyrologes of certaine other writers, 1are fraught with much baggage. Now, to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus, and the autours whom he alleageth, you may adde the kings professours and chiefest Doctors of Louan, (if you desire more witnesses,) euen Hessels, and Molanus. Of whom,i the one, writing a Censure on a storie called the Passionall of Saintes, condemneth much thereof, and enditeth more, with this verdict, k
fPetr. de Natalibus Episcopi Equilin. catalogus Sanctorum.
gAloys. Lipom. de Sanctor. historiis Tom. 5.6. & 7.
hLaurent. Sur. de probatis Sanctorum histo riis.
1Multis scaten• quisquiliis.
iCensura Johannis Hessels in librum qui in scribitur Passionale de Sanctis per annum.Censura Iohannis Hessels in librum qui in scribitur Passionale de Sanctis per annum.
lJohann. Molanus praefat. in •esselii Censuram.Iohann. Molanus praefat. in •esselii Censuram.
2Mendaces Graecos.
*Namely by S. Jerome, Sedulius, Rupertus, •ames the Archbishop of Genua, Pope Adrian the ••rst, and Usuarde. In Censura Hess. & praefation. in Usuardum.Namely by S. Ierom, Sedulius, Rupertus, ames the Archbiop of Genua, Pope Adrian the rst, and Vsuarde. In Censura Hess. & praefation. in Vsuardum.
Whereby you may see that the judgement of Canus, touching the stories of Saints, is more a great deal then one Doctors judgement. Howbeit, if so many were not of his mind: yet should you do him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor. For himself allegeth the testimony of a Doctor as good as any that I have named: I mean that worthy man nLudovicus Vives. Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captains and philosophers are written so notably, that they are like to live for ever; but the lives of Apostles, of Martyrs, of Saints, the acts of the Church both in the spring and growth of it, are covered with great darkness, and lye unknown in a manner: for ⟨p. 499⟩those things (saith he) which are written of them are (a few excepted) 4defiled with many fables, while he that writeth them doth follow his own affection, & telleth not what a Saint hath done, but what he would have had him done, so that the writers fancy and not the truth doth pen the story. Yea, some have thought it a point of great godliness 5to coin pretty lies, that thereby mens devotion might be stirred up. Some have thought it a point of great godliness, saith Vives: but will you know of what godliness? There is a mystery in y•, which Vi•es doth not open: Canus doth open it. For ohe saith that they, who feign and forge in writing ecclesiastical stories, devise their whole matter ether to error or to gain, S. Paul hath forewarned us of a kind of men, pwhich think that gain is godliness. Your Church, M. Hart, hath had many minions, who of a zeal to this godliness have not only written, but wrought miracles too. You remember qthe tale of Bel and the Dragon. A rfriend of yours entreating thereof, doth report, that as the Priests of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship, so even in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceived with miracles wrought either by Priests, or by their adherents, for gain and lucre's sake.
Whereby you may sée that the iudgement of Canus, touching the stories of Saintes, is more a great deale then one Doctors iudgement. Howbeit, if so many were not of his minde: yet should you doo him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor. For himselfe alleageth the testimonie of a Doctor as good as any that I haue named: I meane that worthy man nLudouicus Viues. Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captaines and philosophers are writen so notably, that they are like to liue for euer; but the liues of Apostles, of Martyrs, of Saintes, the actes of the Church both in the spring and grouth of it, are couered with great darknes, and lye vnknown in a maner: for ⟨p. 499⟩those things (saith he) which are writen of them are (a fewe excepted) 4defiled with many fables, while he that writeth them doth folow his own affectiō, & telleth not what a Saint hath done, but what he would haue had him done, so that the writers fansie and not the truth doth penne the storie. Yea, some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse 5to coyne prety lyes, that thereby mens deuotion might be stirred vp. Some haue thought it a point of great godlinesse, saith Viues: but wil you know of what godlines? There is a mysterie in y•, which Vi•es doth not open: Canus doth open it. For ohe saith that they, who feine and forge in writing ecclesiasticall stories, deuise their whole matter ether to error or to gaine, S. Paule hath forewarned vs of a kinde of men, pwhich thinke that gaine is godlines. Your Church, M. Hart, hath had many minions, who of a zeale to this godlines haue not onely writen, but wrought miracles too. You remember qthe tale of Bel and the Dragon. A rfréend of yours intreating thereof, doth report, that as the Priestes of Babylon did abuse the people in the Dragons worship, so euen in the Church the people sometimes is shamefully deceiued with miracles wrought either by Priestes, or by their adherents, for gaine and lucres sake.
Hart. If any do so, we allow not of it: and there is order taken by sthe Council of Trent against such abuses. But what is this to the Portesse? or rather to the Popes supremacy? Chiefly, sith I mind not to allege any thing out of the Portesse for it?
Hart. If any doo so, we allow not of it: and there is order taken by sthe Councell of Trent against such abuses. But what is this to the Portesse? or rather to the Popes supremacie? Chiefly, sith I minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it?
Rainoldes. I was afraid you would. You are a man a• likely (for ought that I know) to do it for the Popes supremacy, as your Rhemists to do it for the assumption of the virgin. Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse, as of Portesse-like writers, by whom I fell into your Portesse. But •f you mind not to allege any thing out of the Portesse for it: then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered tupon S. Thomas of Canterbury.
Rainoldes. I was afraide you would. You are a man a• likely (for ought that I know) to doo it for the Popes supremacie, as your Rhemists to doo it for the assumption of the virgin. Though my meaning was not so much of your Portesse, as of Portesse-like writers, by whom I fell into your Portesse. But •f you minde not to alleage any thing out of the Portesse for it: then you will not bring those miracles which are fathered tvpon S. Thomas of Canterburie.
tIn bre•iatri• secundum usu•• Sar•m.In bre•iatri• secundum vsu•• Sar•m.
Aqua Thomae quinquies
varians colorem,
In las semel transijt,
quater in cr•orem.
⟨p. 500⟩Ad Thomae memoriam
quater lux descendit,
Et in sancti gloriam
cereos accendit.
The water of Thomas
did five times change her colour,
Once it was turned into milk,
and four times into blood.
⟨p. 500⟩At Thomas his monument
four times there came down light,
And in the honour of the Saint
it kindled the tapers.
Aqua Thomae quinquies
varians colorem,
In las semel transijt,
quater in cr•orem.
⟨p. 500⟩Ad Thomae memoriam
quater lux descendit,
Et in sancti gloriam
cereos accendit.
The water of Thomas
did fiue times change her colour,
Once it was turned into milke,
and foure times into bloud.
⟨p. 500⟩At Thomas his monument
foure times there came downe light,
And in the honour of the Sainte
it kindled the tapers.
Hart. I pray go to the purpose, and leave these idle fancies which you bring in to play with. There is no such thing in the Portesse now. And if it were: what is it to the point in question?
Hart. I pray go to the purpose, and leaue these idle fansies which you bring in to play with. There is no such thing in the Portesse now. And if it were: what is it to the point in question?
Rainoldes. To the point in question, as direct as may be. For this Thomas died uupon occasion of a quarrel about the Popes supremacy: while he maintained appeals (against the king) to the Pope. Now, to prove that he stood in defence of the truth, those miracles were wrought. For, that, which they preached who had the grace of miracles, was the truth, saith xBristow: adding, that S. Thomas of Canterbury, S. Thomas of Aquine, S. Francis, S. Dominic, and infinite others had that grace, in such sort, that no man is able to put any difference between the miracles of Christ with his Apostles, and of these men. Yet well-fare their hearts who reformed your Portesse. For they have put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury, and many others: which they would not have done, (I trow,) had they not known some difference between the miracles of these men, and the miracles of Christ. But they have left in as worthy a miracle, as those, of an other of Bristow's miracle-workers, even of S. Thomas of Aquine: and (I hope) you will not call that an idle fancy; though it be as idle with me, as the former. For ythey report of him, that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix, he heard a voice (* the crucifix spake it) saying to him, 1Thomas, thou hast written well of me, Thomas. I should have thought (for my part) that the wooden crucifix of a loving thankful hart, had commended him, because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God, and zwriteth solemnly that men ought to do so. But Pope aPius the fifth, the Lord-reformer of the Portesse, affirmeth, that 2the doctrine of Thomas was approved by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle. And he knew best the meaning of it. So that I perceive this miracle was rather a dogmatical miracle (as bBristow •ermeth it) then personal. But whether personal, or ⟨p. 501⟩dogmatical: it shall not persuade me that all is true▪ which is written and taught by your dogmatical Doctor Thomas. For (as 10I have showed) he forgeth and belieth the Fathers notably, in the defence of the Popes supremacy against the Grecians. I can hardly think, that, when the crucifix said Thomas had written well, it meant to approve his writing in that point. Or if the crucifix meant it, the crucifix was to blame: unless the fault were rather in some lying knave, who spake out of the crucifix.
Rainoldes. To the point in question, as direct as may be. For this Thomas died uvpon occasion of a quarrell about the Popes supremacie: while he maintained appeales (against the king) to the Pope. Now, to proue that he stood in defense of the truth, those miracles were wrought. For, that, which they preached who had the grace of miracles, was the truth, saith xBristow: adding, that S. Thomas of Canterbury, S. Thomas of Aquine, S. Francis, S. Dominike, and infinit others had that grace, in such sorte, that no man is able to put any difference betweene the miracles of Christ with his Apostles, and of these men. Yet well-fare their heartes who reformed your Portesse. For they haue put out those miracles of S. Thomas of Canterbury, and many others: which they would not haue doon, (I trow,) had they not knowne some difference betwéene the miracles of these men, and the miracles of Christ. But they haue left in as worthie a miracle, as those, of an other of Bristowes miracle-workers, euen of S. Thomas of Aquine: and (I hope) you will not call that an idle fansie; though it be as idle with me, as the former. For ythey report of him, that when he was praying earnestly at Naples before the image of the crucifix, he heard a voyce (* the crucifix spake it) saying to him, 1Thomas, thou hast writen well of me, Thomas. I should haue thought (for my part) that the wodden crucifix of a louing thankfull hart, had commended him, because he did honour it with the fame honour that is due to God, and zwriteth solemnly that men ought to doo so. But Pope aPius the fifth, the Lorde-reformer of the Portesse, affirmeth, that 2the doctrine of Thomas was approued by the mouth of the crucifix him self in this miracle. And he knew best the meaning ofit. So yt I perceyue this miracle was rather a dogmaticall miracle (as bBristow •ermeth it) then personall. But whether personall, or
uMatt. Paris histor. Angl. in Henric. second.Matt. Paris histor. Angl. in Henric. secund.
xMotiu. 6.
yBreviar. Rom. in festo S. Tho. Aquinat.Breuiar. Rom. in festo S. Tho. Aquinat.
Rainoldes. But, in what story, Pope Pius doth not say. Belike he meaneth Antoninus: of whom you know what Canus judgeth; and his judgement therein is good.
Rainoldes. But, in what story, Pope Pius doth not say. Belike he meaneth Antoninus: of whom you know what Canus iudgeth; and his iudgement therein is good.
setting foorth and commending that Censure, saith it is no maruaile if in that Passionall there be corrupt stories, sith the stories which the Catholikes of that countrie found amongst
the lying Greekes might easily come into it. Molanus layeth the faulte vpon the lying Greekes, as they deserue it best indéed. Notwithstanding it appéereth by
some, whom either Hes•els or himselfe haue censured, that not the Greekes alone are faultie. And sundry Greekes are faultie whom he would be loth to call lying Greekes: as namely Nicephorus, & Simeon Metaphrastes, of the newer writers; & of the ancienter, Palladius, and Cassianus. Of all whom
I haue shewed) he forgeth and belyeth the Fathers notably, in the defense of the Popes supremacie against the Grecians. I can hardly think, that, when the crucifix said Thomas had writen well, it meant to approue his writing in that point. Or if the crucifix meant it, the crucifix was to blame: vnlesse the faute were rather in some lying knaue, who spake out of the crucifix.
