The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. No. For the exception hwhich I made against them was of two branches: one, that they avouch not the supremacy of the Pope; the other, that they avouch more, through affection, then is true and right. And this is very manifest not only by the dealings of them whom I named: but also by the writings of them whom you alleged.
Rainoldes. No. For the exception hwhich I made against them was of two branches: one, that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope; the other, that they auouch more, through affection, then is true and right. And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named: but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged.
hIn the third Division of this Chapter.In the third Diuisiō of this Chapter.
Hart. Of the third sort of Popes if you mean: they may be refused perhaps with greater show of reason. But they, whom I alleged, of the second sort, were holy men, and Saints.
Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane: they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason. But they, whom I alleaged, of the second sort, were holy men, and Saints.
they did not only desire superiority, but also strive about it. Innocentius, Leo, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and Gregory, the men whom you alleged, were not greater then the Apostles. And the praise which they give to their See of Rome, doth so exceed the truth: that it beareth evident marks of their affection. You might have perceived it in that which you cited out of
Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God: by which (he saith) they decreed, that, whatsoever was done in provinces far off, it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome. For what were the Fathers who decreed that? where is the sentence of God, by which they did it? Though this is the least of many friendly speeches, which not Innocentius only, but the rest too (as
I have showed in Leo,) do lend their Church & Peter. Yea, some flat repugnant to the holy scripture: and that, confessed by your selves. For they say that
scripture showeth that the Church is sanctified, & framed to be hereafter not having spot, or wrinkle or any such thing, when Christ shall make it glorious & triumphant in heaven: not, but that it hath such, while it is militant
Stapleton confess it. Wherefore howsoever holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleged: it cannot be denied but they had affections, and yielded thereunto as men. Howbeit the third sort (I grant) are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault. For it is a small thing with them to use speeches repugnant to the Scripture: but they must abuse, yea, coin scripture too, for maintenance of their Papal port. They can teach the Church that
upon this condition, if they will be sworn to him:
Rainoldes, The Apostles of Christ (I hope) were Saintes too. Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that ithey did not onely desire superioritie, but also striue about it. Innocentius, Leo, Gelasius, Vigilius, Pelagius, and Gregorie, the men whō you alleaged, were not greater then the Apostles. And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome, doth so excéede the truth: that it beareth euident markes of their affection. You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of kInnocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God: by which (he saith) they decreed, that, whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off, it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome. For what were the Fathers who decréed that? where is the sentence of God, by which they did it? Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches, which not Innocentius onely, but the rest too (as lI haue shewed in Leo,) doo lend their Church & Peter. Yea, some flat repugnant to the holy scripture: and that, confessed by your selues. For they say that mall Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman. The holy nscripture maketh *Ierusalem the spring of them. They say that oall Bishops had their honor and name from Peter. The holy pscripture teacheth, that many had it from other Apostles, not from him. They say qthat the Church of Rome hath neither spot, norwrinckle, nor any such thing. The holy rscripture sheweth yt the Church is san•ctified, & framed to be hereafter not hauing spot, or wrinckle or any such thing, whē Christ shal make it glorious & triumphant in heauen: not, but that it hath such, while it is militant ⟨p. 632⟩on the earth.s Which is so apparant, that not the Fathers only, but tThomas of Aquine also, and D uStapleton confesse it. Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged: it cannot be denied but they had affections, and yéelded thereunto as men. Howbeit the thirde sort (I graunt) are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault. For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture: but they must abuse, yea, coine scripture too, for maintenance of their Papall port. They can teach the Church that xthe Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops 1vpon this condition, if they will be sworne to him:
*Which therefore is called the mother of all Churches by the Fathers of the Councell (the second general Councel) of Constantinople. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. Although the Popes now & their Trent-councell do belie the Church of Rome with that title. Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. De baptism. can 3. Ses. 14. de Sacrament. extrem. unction. cap. 3. Sess. 22. cap. 8. Sess. 25. Decret. de delectu ciborum.Which therefore is called the mother of all Churches by ye Fathers of the Councell (the second generall Coūcel) of Constantinople. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 9. Although the Popes nowe & their Trent-councell do belie the Church of Rome with that title. Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. De baptism. can 3. Ses. 14. de Sacrament. extrem. vnction. cap. 3. Sess. 22. cap. 8. Sess. 25. Decret. de delectu ciborum.
because when Christ committed his sheep unto Peter, he 2did condition with him, saying, aif thou love me, feed my sheep. They can teach the Church that ythe Pope hath power over all powers, & Princes of the earth, & none hath power over him, because bthe spiritual man judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. They can teach the Church that zChrist ordained Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars, who, (by cthe testimony of the book of kings) must needs be so obeyed, that he who obeyeth them not, must die the death: and, as it is read dotherwhere, He that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chair cannot be in the Church.
because whē Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter, he 2did condition with him, saying, aif thou loue me, feede my sheepe. They can teach the Church that ythe Pope hath power ouer all powers, & Princes of the earth, & none hath power ouer him, because bthe spirituall man iudgeth all thinges, yet hee himselfe is iudged of no mā. They can teach the Church that zChrist ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars, who, (by cthe testimony of the booke of kinges) must needes be so obeyed, that he who obeieth them not, must die the death: and, as it is read dotherwhere, Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church.
Hart. That which is cited out of the book of kings, is in the book of Deuteronomy. The text is true scripture, though the place mistaken. And, though it belong not to the Pope immediately.
Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges, is in the booke of Deuteronomie. The text is true scripture, though the place mistaken. And, though it belong not to the Pope immediatly.
Rainoldes. Nay, never go about to salve it, M. Hart. That of Deuteronomy we have ealready handled. Pope Leo the tenth and his Council of Lateran had a strong affection to make the Popes Kings, when they alleged the book of kings for Deuteronomy, & Deuteronomy for the Papacy. But what soever you think of the third, or second, or any sort of Popes: it is against all law both of God, and man, that they should be witnesses in their own matter. And therefore if your proof of their supremacy be no better: the jury will cast you, out of all controversy. For fif I should bear witness of my self (saith Christ) my witness were not true. gNone are fit witnesses in their own causes: hno not though they were as worthy men as Scipio was amongst the Romans. It were a bad plea in Westminster ⟨p. 633⟩Hall: John a Noke must have this land; for John a Noke saith so. The iCanonists themselves, when Popes allege Popes for proof of certain points touching their supremacy, do note, that 1it is a familiar kind of proof: meaning such belike, as that in the common proverb, Ask my fellow if I be a thief. Which they might note the better, because it is evident that 2the Popes have stretched out their own fringes in laying claim to large power, as kgreat Divines among you, have written in these very terms.
Rainoldes. Nay, neuer goe about to salue it, M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue ealredy handled. Pope Leo ye tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges, when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie, & Deuteronomie for the Papacie. But what soeuer you think of the third, or seconde, or any sort of Popes: it is against all law both of God, and man, that they should bée witnesses in their own matter. And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better: the iury will cast you, out of all controuersie. For fif I should beare witnesse of my selfe (saith Christ) my witnesse were not true. gNone are fit witnesses in their own causes: hno not though they were as worthy mē as Scipio was amōgst ye Romans. It were a bad plea in Westminster ⟨p. 633⟩Hall: Iohn a Noke must haue this land; for Iohn a Noke saith so. The iCanonistes themselues, when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie, doe note, that 1it is a familiar kind of proofe: meaning such belike, as that in the common prouerbe, Aske my felow if I be a theefe. Which they might note the better, because it is euidēt that 2the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power, as kgreat Diuines among you, haue written in these very termes.
gL. nullus D. de testibus. L. omnibus. C. eo. 4.9.2. & 3. c. Si testes.
hCicer. pro Roscio.
i9. q. 3. c. pater. in glossa. C•em. unica de jureiurando. In glossa Johannis Andreae.9. q. 3. c. pater. in glossa. C•em. vnica de iureiurando. In glossa Iohannis Andreae.
1Familiaris est haec probatio quum Papa alium Papam adducit in testem.
2Summi Pontifices suas fimbrias nimis extendentes. Spoken by allusion to ye Scribes and Pharisees, who enlarged the Phylacteries and fringes of their garments. Mat. 13.5.Summi Pontifices suas fimbrias nimis extēdentes. Spoken by allusion to ye Scribes and Pharises, who enlarged the Phylacteries and frindges of their garments. Mat. 13.5.
kAen. Silu. de gestis Basilien•sis concil. l. 1. Jacobus Almain de autor. ecclesiae cap. 8. The sixth Division.Aen. Silu. de gestis Basilien•sis concil. l. 1. Iacobus Almain de autor. ecclesiae cap. 8. The sixth Diuision.
Hart. The power, which they claimed, hath seemed over large to envious and malicious men. But it was no more then their right and due. Which because you think not sufficiently proved by the Popes themselves: I will prove it farther by the words and testimonies of other ancient Fathers.
Hart. The power, which they claimed, hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men. But it was no more then their right and due. Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues: I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers.
Hart. Of the chiefest of them, both Greek and Latin. For it was the prerogative of the Popes office that made S. Bernard seek to Innocentius the third, Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Africa to Innocentius the first, and to Caelestinus, Epist. 90.92.95. S. Chrysostom to the said Innocentius, Epist. 1. & 2. S. Basil, to the Pope in his time, Epist. 52. S. Jerome, to Damasus, Epist. 57.58. tom. 2. and other likewise to others: that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiastical regiment.
Hart. Of the chéefest of them, both Gréeke and Latine. For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third, Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first, and to Caelestinus, Epist. 90.92.95. S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius, Epist. 1. & 2. S. Basil, to the Pope in his time, Epist. 52. S. Ierom, to Damasus, Epist. 57.58. tom. 2. and other likewise to others: that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment.
Rainoldes. If you bring such witnesses to prove the Popes supremacy: I must request the jury to have an eye to the issue. For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their advise, and counsel; some by their authority, and credit; some by both. By their advise, and counsel▪ as Jerome, of Damasus. By their authority & credit: as Chrysostom, of Innocentius. By both: as Basil, Austin, and the Bishops of Africa, of the Popes in their time. Bernard somewhat more. But he lived yesterday, in comparison of the rest: and therefore not to be numbered amongst the ancient Fathers. Though neither he by this point proveth the Papacy. And what his judgement was thereof lI have declared. Now for them, first, who asked the advise and counsel of the Pope: I will tell you a story, which (I pray) consider of. mTheodosius the Emperor desirous to procure the peace of the Church, consulted with Nectarius the Patriarch of Constantinople, ⟨p. 634⟩what way might best be taken for ending controversies of religion. The Patriarch imparted the matter to Agelius a Novatian Bishop. The Bishop to Sisinius, a reader in his church. The reader gave advise and counsel to the Patriarch. Which the Patriarch liked of, and showed it to the Emperor: the Emperor embraced it, and dealt according thereunto.
Rainoldes. If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie: I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue. For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise, and counsell; some by their autoritie, and credit; some by both. By their aduise, and counsell▪ as Ierom, of Damasus. By their autoritie & credit: as Chrysostome, of Innocentius. By both: as Basill, Austin, and the Bishops of Afrike, of the Popes in their time. Bernard somewhat more. But he liued yesterday, in comparison of the rest: and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers. Though neither he by this point proueth the Papacy. And what his iudgement was thereof lI haue declared. Now for them, first, who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope: I will tell you a storie, which (I pray) consider of. mTheodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of ye Church, consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople, ⟨p. 634⟩what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion. The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop. The Bishop to Sisinius, a reader in his church. The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke. Which the Patriarke liked of, and shewed it to the Emperour: the Emperour embraced it, and dealt according thereunto.
Hart. The case is not like. For it was the personal wisdom, virtue, learning, or faith of these men, which made them to be sought to. But that, which made the Fathers seek to the Popes, was the prerogative of their office:
Hart. The case is not like. For it was the personal wisdome, vertue, lerning, or faith of these men, which made them to be sought to. But that, which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes, was the prerogatiue of their office:
Rainoldes. Wherein they could not err, as you heard say at nRhemes. But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personal faith and gifts in this sort, must be put in mind that by the same reason oSergius the Patriarch of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius, in respect not of his personal wisdom, virtue, learning or faith, but of his office too. And so shall your self be forced to confess, that either the Pope may err in consultations, which he dealeth with by reason of his office, as Pope Honorius did: or, the Fathers seeking to the Popes for counsel, did seek in respect of their personal gifts, that they were learned and godly Pastors; as pmany sought to Austin then, qto Calvin lately, though neither of them were Pope.
Rainoldes. Wherein they could not erre, as you heard say at nRhemes. But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte, must be put in mind that by the same reason oSergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius, in respect not of his personall wisedome, vertue, learning or faith, but of his office too. And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse, that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations, which he dealeth with by reason of his office, as Pope Honorius did: or, the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell, did séeke in respect of their personall giftes, that they were learned and godly Pastours; as pmany sought to Austin then, qto Caluin lately, though neither of them were Pope.
Hart. Nay: it is certain that S. Jerome sought to Damasus for his office sake. For rhe speaketh namely of the chair of Peter: that is, the See Apostolic committed to Damasus.
Hart. Nay: it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake. For rhe speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter: that is, the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus.
Rainoldes. But withal he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers, that is, the Christian faith, which Damasus kept uncorrupted. And therefore he sought to him as a godly learned, not as a Pastor only: not for his office sake alone, but for his person, succeeding as in place, so in doctrine to Peter. Though in whatsoever respect and consideration Jerome sought to Damasus: his seeking to be resolved in a point of faith, doth not ⟨p. 635⟩import sovereignty of power, sas I have showed. Much less doth the counsel that Basil asked, import it, tabout assuaging of their troubles. Least of all, that Austin, and the Bishop of Africa: who, under show of asking counsel of Innocentius, uin trueth gave him counsel, for fear least the Pelagians should have seduced him to their error. Wherefore the ancient Fathers, who sought advise of Popes, prove not the Popes supremacy. No more do they in deed who sought to further others, or relieve themselves, by the Popes authority. For authority & power differ: that such, as are their brethren's superiors in the one, may be their inferiors or equals in the other. As xwe agreed, if you remember.
Rainoldes. But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers, that is, the Christian faith, which Damasus kept vncorrupted. And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned, not as a Pastour only: not for his office sake alone, but for his person, succéeding as in place, so in doctrine to Peter. Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus: his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith, doth not ⟨p. 635⟩import soueraintie of power, sas I haue shewed. Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked, import it, tabout asswaging of their troubles. Least of all, that Austin, and the Bishop of Afrike: who, vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius, uin trueth gaue him counsell, for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour. Wherefore the auncient Fathers, who sought aduise of Popes, proue not the Popes supremacie. No more doe they in déede who sought to further others, or reléeue themselues, by the Popes autoritie. For autoritie & power differ: that such, as are their brethrens superiours in the one, may be their inferiours or equals in the other. As xwée agréed, if you remember.
