The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrees of Councils by consenting to them. But the Pope confirmed them in special sort. For S. qCyril saith of the third general Council of Ephesus, that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Council, and confirmed all things that were done therein.
Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them. But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort. For S. qCyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus, that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell, and confirmed all thinges that were done therein.
Rainoldes. S. Cyril saith not that of Caelestinus, but of Sixtus. Howbeit, if he had: yet this would prove authority still, and not power. As rProsper noteth well that the Nestorian heresy was specially withstood by the industry of Cyril, and the authority of Caelestinus. But these very words of Cyril, touching Sixtus, do overthrow your fancy conceived on the Popes confirming of Councils. For, the Council of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession. Notwithstanding Sixtus, who succeeded him, did confirm it afterward. In deed the truth dependeth neither of Council, nor of Pope: though, when Popes & Councils were good & godly minded, they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth. For as Joshua said to sall the tribes of Israel, even to the Priests also assembled in a Council, t
If it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, choose you whom you will serve, whether the Gods which your Fathers served, or the Gods of the Amorites; but I and my house will serve the Lord ▪ so the right faith and religion of Christ is firm of it self, and ought to be embraced of every Christian with his household, whether it please the tribes, that is, the Church, or no. But the Church is named
the pillar and ground of truth in respect of men, because it beareth up the truth, and confirmeth it, through preaching of the word, by the ministry of
Basil termeth the pillars and ground of truth. Now, the more there be of these who maintain it, and the greater credit they have amongst men: the stronger and surer the truth doth seem to be, and many yield the sooner to it. For which cause
was confirmed by James, Peter, and John, who were counted to be pillars; yea, by the Council of the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem: and being so confirmed was
Churches were stablished in the faith, and increased in number daily. The men of God therefore, who in ancient time were assembled together to uphold the truth, desired the consent, some time of all Bishops, as in
Rainoldes. S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus, but of Sixtus. Howbeit, if he had: yet this would proue autoritie still, and not power. As rProsper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril, and the authoritie of Caelestinus. But these very wordes of Cyrill, touching Sixtus, doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels. For, the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession. Notwithstanding Sixtus, who succéeded him, did confirm it afterward. In déede ye truth dependeth neither of Coūcel, nor of Pope: though, whē Popes & Councels were good & godly minded, they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth. For as Ioshua sayd to sall the tribes of Israel, euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell, tIf it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde, choose you whom you will serue, whether the Gods which your Fathers serued, or the Gods of the Amorites; but I and my house will serue the Lord ▪ so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe, and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold, whether it please the tribes, that is, the Church, or no. But the Church is named uthe piller and ground of truth in respect of men, because it beareth vp the truth, and confirmeth it, through preaching of the word, by the ministerie of xPriests in the old testament, and yBishops in the new, whom therefore zBasil termeth the pillers and ground of truth. Now, the more there be of these who maintaine it, and the greater credit they haue amongst men: the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be, and many yéeld the sooner to it. For which cause athe doctrine of Barnabas and Paul, though assuredly btrue, yet cwas cōfirmed by Iames, Peter, and Iohn, who were counted to be pillers; yea, by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem: and being so confirmed was ereceiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche, and fin other cities; in so much that gthe ⟨p. 640⟩Churches were stablished in the faith, and increased in number daily. The men of God therfore, who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth, desired the consent, some time of all Bishops, as in hthe Councell of Sardica; sometime of the Pope, as in ithe Councell of Carthage:
not for that they thought that else their decrees should be of no force, but because they knew that the consent of such would add the greater credit to them. And, that general Councils, if they had desired the Pope to confirm them, which all of them did not, but if they had done so, yet must have done it in this consideration: you may see by a pillar and ground of your Council of Trent, even kAndradius. Who not only voucheth that *most learned men do most wisely think it, as Alfonsus lnamely: but allegeth also Cardinal Turrecremata, the chiefest patron of the Pope, for proof of the same, or rather of a farther point. For if there should happen such a case (saith mthe Cardinal) that all the Fathers assembled in a general Council should make a decree touching any matter of faith with one accord, and the Pope alone gainsaid that decree: men ought (in my judgement) to obey the Council therein, and not the Pope. And why? Because the judgement of so many Fathers of a general Council seemeth to be justly and worthily preferred before the judgement of one man in a matter of faith. Whereupon he addeth that the Council then is above the Pope, 1not in power of jurisdiction, 2but in authority of judgement to discern things, and in ampleness of knowledge. Thus it is apparent by your own Doctors, that, to confirm Councils importeth an authority the Pope had, not power: and that he was not sovereign in authority neither, no not as much as equal, but inferior to them. So far is it off from proving his supremacy.
not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force, but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them. And, that generall Councels, if they had desired the Pope to confirme them, which all of them did not, but if they had done so, yet must haue done it in this consideration: you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent, euen kAndradius. Who not only voucheth that *most learned mē do most wisely thinke it, as Alfonsus lnamely: but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata, the chéefest patrone of the Pope, for proofe of the same, or rather of a farther point. For if there shoulde happen such a case (sayth mthe Cardinal) that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord, and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree: men ought (in my iudgement) to obey the Councell therein, and not the Pope. And why? Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith. Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope, 1not in power of iurisdiction, 2but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges, and in amplenesse of knowledge. Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors, that, to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had, not power: and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither, no not as much as equall, but inferiour to them. So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie.
lAlfonsu• a Castro de justa haereticorum pu•itione, l. 1. c. 6.Alfonsu• a Castro de iusta haereticorum pu•itione, l. 1. c. 6.
mJohan▪ ruriecrem. de Pont. Max. gener. que Concil. autoritate ad Basil•ē sium oratorem respon. nu. 67. & 6•.Iohan▪ ruriecrem. de Pont. Max. gener. que Concil. autoritate ad Basil•ē sium oratorem respon. nu. 67. & 6•.
1Non potestate jurisdictionis.Non potestate iurisdictionis.
2Sed autoritate discretivi judicij, or maioritate, as Turrecremata calleth it, in Summ. de eccles. l. 3. c. 64.Sed autoritate discretiui iudicij, or maioritate, as Turrecremata calleth it, in Summ. de eccles. l. 3. c. 64.
Hart. Though Councils be above the Pope in authority, after the opinion of Cardinal Turrecremata: yet you see he setteth the Pope above them in power of jurisdiction, wherein his supremacy doth principally stand. And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their deeds too. For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, Paul of Constantinople, Asclepas of Gaza, Marcellus of Ancyra, Lucian of Adrianople, and very many other Bishops of the East, being driven out of their Churches by the Arians, ⟨p. 641⟩did appeal to the Pope, as necclesiastical stories show.
Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie, after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata: yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction, wherin his supremacie doth principally stand. And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too. For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria, Paul of Constantinople, Asclepas of Gaza, Marcellus of Ancyra, Lucian of Adrianople, and very many other Bishops of the East, being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians, ⟨p. 641⟩did appeale to the Pope, as necclesiasticall stories shew.
nHist. tripart. l. 4. c. 15. Socrat. l. 2. c. 15. Sozomen. l. 3. c. 8.
Rainoldes. The stories show it not: but ohe, who saith they show it, showeth that he dealeth with them in this point, as in pthe former with S. Cyril. Hath he abused you so often, and will you never cease to credit him?
Rainoldes. The stories shew it not: but ohe, who sayth they shew it, sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point, as in pthe former with S. Cyrill. Hath he abused you so often, and will you neuer cease to credit him?
Hart. The stories show that they came to Rome to Pope Julius, and he for the prerogative and dignity of his See restored them to their Churches, perceiving that the Arians had deprived them wrongfully.
Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius, and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches, perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully.
Rainoldes. The dignity and prerogative of the See of Rome, in restoring them, was but of authority, and honour, not of power. For the power of hearing and judging their cause did rest in the Council assembled then at Rome. Which Julius himself, and Athanasius both do testify. Athanasius, who speaking thereof qascribeth it plainly to the Council. Julius, who being reproved by the Arians for overthwarting that which they had done in their Council, ranswereth that the doings of a former Council may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other; that themselves had offered to have the cause debated so in just judgement, and thereto had requested a Council to be called; that Athanasius and the rest appeared at the Council, and they who should have also appeared made default; that hereupon the Council finding their iniquity, relieved the parties wrongfully oppressed; to be short, that whatsoever he dealt or wrote therein, he did it on the Coū cels judgement, and consent, not on his own head. Wherefore it was not the Pope, but the Council, that heard and determined the causes of Bishops, whether at first, or on appeals. Such power of jurisdiction nether did Julius claim, nor Athanasius give him.
Rainoldes. The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome, in restoring them, was but of autoritie, and honour, not of power. For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome. Which Iulius himself, and Athanasius both do testifie. Athanasius, who speaking thereof qascribeth it plainly to the Councell. Iulius, who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell, ranswereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other; that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement, and thereto had requested a Councell to be called; that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell, and they who should haue also appeered made defaute; that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie, relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed; to be short, that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein, he did it on the Coū cels iudgement, and consent, not on his owne head. Wherefore it was not the Pope, but the Councell, that heard and determined the causes of Bishops, whether at first, or on appeales. Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime, nor Athanasius giue him.
qApologia. 2.
rIn epist. ad episcopos Antiochiae congregatos. Apud Athan. apol. 2.
Rainoldes. I told you oft epistles which seemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-keepers or cooks. This is one of them. It should be the very same, that I alleged, extant in Athanasius. But it is no liker it, then black is to white. The canons, which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicene Fathers, bewray the lewdness of it. The more, because ⟨p. 642⟩Julius in the same epistle (as Athanasius hath it) citeth their authority for the Council above the Pope, who in this are cited for the Pope above the Council. Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle, as it is confessed: you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit.
Rainoldes. I told you oft epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes. This is one of them. It should be the very same, that I alleaged, extant in Athanasius. But it is no liker it, then black is to white. The canons, which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers, bewray the lewdnesse of it. The more, because ⟨p. 642⟩Iulius in the same epistle (as Athanasius hath it) citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope, who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell. Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle, as it is confessed: you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit.
tIn the 3. Division of this Chapter.In the 3. Diuision of this Chapter.
Hart. Yet uSocrates & xSozomē report, that Julius wrote in his epistle to the Arians, that whereas they called not him unto the Council, therein they did unlawfully: because it was provided by a law of the Church, that things which were decreed and done without the Popes consent should be void.
Hart. Yet uSocrates & xSozomē report, that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians, that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell, therein they did vnlawfully: because it was prouided by a law of the Church, that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide.
Rainoldes. If Julius had written so to the Arians: Julius had written a manifest untruth. For by ythe Nicene Canons (which were the chiefest laws of the Church at that time) it was ordered, that Councils should be kept yearly twice in every province. To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope: or that they might do nothing there but what he liked of. But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Julius, as zStapleton doth now. And whereas ahe had said, know ye not that this is the manner and custom 1that ye should write to us first, that hence might be decreed the thing which is just? they thought that he had spoken of himself, belike, and had meant the Pope by the word [us,] by which he meant the Council. For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name, as Athanasius noteth: and himself showeth it by saying straight before, 2ye ought to have written unto all us, that so that which is just might be decreed by all.
Rainoldes. If Iulius had writen so to the Arians: Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth. For by ythe Nicen Canons (which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time) it was ordered, that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince. To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope: or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of. But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius, as zStapleton doth now. And whereas ahe had said, know ye not that this is the maner and custome 1that ye should write to vs first, that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust? they thought that he had spoken of himselfe, belike, and had meant the Pope by the word [vs,] by which he meant the Councell. For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name, as Athanasius noteth: and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before, 2ye ought to haue written vnto all vs, that so that which is iust might be decreed by all.
yConci. Nicaen. ca•. 5.
zPrinc. doctr. lib. 7. ca. 10.
aJulius in epi. ad episcopos An•io•h. congregat. Apud Athan. apolog. 2.Iulius in epi. ad episcopos An•io•h. congregat. Apud Athan. apolog. 2.
1Ut p•imum nobis scribatur.Vt p•imum nobis scribatur.
Hart. Whatsoever you conceive of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Julius: yet can you not deny but Flavianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Council of Ephesus deposing him unjustly. And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too▪ For bthe Emperor Valentinian witnesseth the one; and cTheodoret himself, the other.
Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue ofthe doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius: yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly. And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too▪ For bthe Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one; and cTheodoret himselfe, the other.
Rainoldes. Flavianus appealed from the Council of Ephesus: but to a greater and a more lawful Council, not to Pope Leo. Which appeareth by an epistle of dLeo himself, complaining to the Emperor Theodosius of the fewness and oppression of the Bishops in the Council of Ephesus; and desiring that a general Council might be kept, because Flavianus ⟨p. 643⟩had appealed. You must add therefore the Empress Placidia to the Emperor Valentinian: and with the ones words of 3appealing to Leo, take that ethe other saith, to Leo 4and to all the Bishops of these parts. So Leo, and the Bishops being joined together, will make the Council of Chalcedon: by the which Council fthe cause of Flavianus and his appeal was judged. The same Council also gdid judge Theodorets cause; & finding him guiltless restored him to his See. Wherefore sith the Council was judge of the appeal: if he appealed to Leo, and not to the Council, it was an oversight. Unless perhaps he did not appeal as to a higher judge▪ that might restore him; but as to a man of learning and authority, whose credit and judgement might help to prove him not guilty. And this doth the tenor of hhis request pretend. Though asking withal the advise of Leo, whether he shall bear that wrongful deprivation, or seek to be restored: he seemeth to have thought of a further matter. Which yet he toucheth so, in speaking of troubling men, and craving Leos prayers: that it is evident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him. Wherefore, the most that you may well imagine of an appeal made by Theodoret to Leo for remedy of the wrong done him, is, that Leo took his bill of appeal to prefer it to the Council whereof he was President. As with us in England the bills are put up to the Speaker of the Parliament, that he may inform the Parliament thereof, not as though himself had sovereign power to pass them.
Rainoldes. Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus: but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell, not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of dLeo himselfe, complayning to the Emperour Theodosius of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus; and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept, because Flauianus ⟨p. 643⟩had appealed. You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian: and with the ones words of 3appealing to Leo, take that ethe other sayth, to Leo 4and to all the Bishops of these partes. So Leo, and the Bishops being ioyned together, will make the Councell of Chalcedon: by the which Councell fthe cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged. The same Councell also gdid iudge Theodorets cause; & finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée. Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale: if he appealed to Leo, and not to the Councell, it was an ouersight. Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge▪ that might restore him; but as to a man of learning and autoritie, whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie. And this doth the tenour of hhis request pretend. Though asking wi•hall the aduise of Leo, whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation, or seeke to be restored: he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter. Which yet he toucheth so, in speaking of troubling men, and crauing Leos prayers: that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him. Wherefore, the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him, is, that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President. As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament, that he may informe the Parlament thereof, not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them.
Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Council, as in deed he was, and head of the Bishops therein, as ithemselves say. Which showeth that they counted the Pope their supreme head.
Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell, as in déede he was, and head of the Bishops therein, as ithemselues say. Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head.
Rainoldes. You will find more heads, then the Popes shoulders will be content to bear, if you make such reasons. First, the Bishop of Corduba. For kHosius was President of the Council of Nice: nor of Nice only, but also of Sardica, and of many others. Next, the Bishop of Antioch, or whosoever he were that had the room in the Council of Constantinople. For lthe Pope had it not. Thirdly, the Bishop of Alexandria.
Rainoldes. You will find more heads, then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare, if you make such reasons. First, the Bishop of Corduba. For kHosius was President of the Councell of Nice: nor of Nice onely, but also of Sardica, and of many others. Next, the Bishop of Antioche, or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople. For lthe Pope had it not. Thirdly, the Bishop of Alexandria.
kAthan. in ep. ad solitar. vitam agent. Apolog. de •uga •ua: & Apolog. 2.
lAs it appeareth by their epistle to Damasus, in Theodo•et. Hist. eccles. lib. 5. c. 9.
