The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
But here peradventure some man will object (an argument which Papists are ever hammering on) that cthe holy Ghost is promised and given by Christ to the elect; and the holy Ghost is the Ghost or spirit of holiness and truth: whereof it may seem to be well gathered that they can neither err in doctrine, nor in manners. To this, (if it be objected) thus I answer: that the holy Ghost hath filled with the unmeasurable abundance of his grace none but Christ only, dof whose fullness we all receive: Christ in deed hath given the holy ghost to the elect, but he hath given it eby measure, (as I may say with John;) not to this effect that they may not err, but that they may not err to death. For it is a sentence not only proved by Philosophers, but also known to simple men by common experience, that whatsoever thing is received of an other, it is received according to the capacity of that which receiveth it. ⟨p. 696⟩We receive therefore the gifts of the holy Ghost, according to the simple capacity of mans weakness, not to the majesty of Gods spirit. There is water enough in the main sea to quench the raging flames that waste a whole town: but a small dish can not contain enough to assuage the fire that burketh one house. Men, who are begotten *in the image and likeness of their father Adam, do flame, & burn as the fProphet speaketh. Though they be gborne anew of water and of the spirit: yet the water of the spirit d••th not quite put out all sparks of faults and oversights. For there remaineth ha strife between the spirit and the flesh even in the godly; and the remnants of the flesh stick in the hart and mind both; and
he which is washed hath need to wash his feet. Wherefore though the chosen and elect of God be renewed by the holy Ghost: yet they are not cleansed so in this life from all perverseness of hart, and blindness of mind, that they can neither swerve from doing their duty, nor be deceived in judgement.
But here peraduenture some man will obiect (an argument which Papists are euer hammering on) that cthe holy Ghost is promised and giuen by Christ to the elect; and the holy Ghost is the Ghost or spirit of holines and truth: whereof it may seeme to be well gathered that they can neither erre in doctrine, nor in maners. To this, (if it be obiected) thus I answere: that the holy Ghost hath filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of his grace none but Christ onely, dof whose fulnes we all receiue: Christ in déed hath giuen the holy ghost to the elect, but he hath giuen it eby measure, (as I may say with Iohn;) not to this effect that they may not erre, but that they may not erre to death. For it is a sentence not onely proued by Philosophers, but also knowen to simple men by common experience, that whatsoeuer thing is receiued of an other, it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it. ⟨p. 696⟩We receiue therefore the gifts of the holy Ghost, according to the simple capacitie of mans weakenesse, not to the maiestie of Gods spirit. There is water enough in the maine sea to quench the raging flames that waste a whole towne: but a small dish can not containe enough to asswage the fier that burketh one house. Men, who are begotten *in the image and likenes of their father Adam, doo flame, & burne as the fProphet speaketh. Though they be gborne anew of water and of the spirit: yet the water of the spirit d••th not quite put out all sparkes of faultes and ouersights. For there remaineth ha strife betwéen the spirit and the flesh euen in the godly; and the remnants of the flesh stick in the hart and mind both; and inow (while we liue) we know but in part, and kthe power of God is perfitted in weaknes; and Ieremie praieth, lheale me O Lord and I shal be healed; and Paul acknowledgeth of himselfe that mhe is not yet perfitte, though labouring hard toward the marke; and Iames saith generally concerning the faithfull, nIn many things we all offend, and our Sauiour witnesseth that ohe which is washed hath neede to wash his feete. Wherefore though the chosen and elect of God be renued by the holy Ghost: yet they are not clensed so in this life from all peruersenes of hart, and blindnes of minde, that they can neither swarne from dooing their duetie, nor be deeeiued in iudgement.
For pthe holy Ghost, no doubt, (as Christ promised,) doth lead them into all truth, yea I say farther into all holiness: but so, as S. Paul professeth to the Ephesians, that qhe showed them all the counsel of God. Now, he showed them all the counsel of God, not absolutely and simply, but rso far as was profitable for them. The holy Ghost therefore doth lighten the minds and sancti••e the harts of the elect and chosen so far, as is expedient for their salvation. But it is expedient for us to err in some things: that we may give all sglory unto God alone; that, knowing what we are, twe be not high minded; that we may be taught to ubear each others burdens; that we may xwork forth our own salvation with fear; that we may learn with Paul, that ythe grace of God is sufficient for us; that we may zsharpen our trust in him, astir up our love towards him, and pray unto him heartily, bincrease our faith, cforgive our sins; in a word, that we may run ⟨p. 697⟩the whole race of our life with greater steadfastness and constancy. Then sith these things are thus, it is to be concluded, that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holiness, even to salvation: but to this salvation they are so lead, that they are not free from all spot and wrinkle, either of manners or of doctrine. Touching which point, on the one side in respect of manners dSebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully, holding this heretical opinion (amongst others) that the regenerate are able to perform the law of God perfectly: which thing it is blasphemous to affirm of any but of Christ only. On the other side in respect of doctrine, eHosius the Cardinal hath overshot him self as foully, saying that every one of the elect may err, as by S. Cyprian's example he showeth: but, that all the faithful gathered together in one, cannot err; which is a fancy of a man that would build castles in the air. It is a matter therefore most sure and out of doubt, that the elect and chosen may err, as in manners, so in doctrine too: though in such sort that they shall not die, but live notwithstanding, and be cured of their errors. Marry, that they who are not chosen, but only called, may err even to death, as well in doctrine as in manners: in manners, it appeareth by the example of fJudas, who was brought through covetousness to betray Christ;
For pthe holy Ghost, no dout, (as Christ promised,) dooth leade thē into all truth, yea I say farther into all holines: but so, as S. Paul professeth to the Ephesians, that qhe shewed them all the counsell of God. Now, he shewed them all the counsell of God, not absolutely and simply, but rso farre as was profitable for them. The holy Ghost therefore doth lighten the mindes and sancti••e the harts of the elect and chosen so farre, as is expedient for their saluation. But it is expedient for vs to erre in some things: that we may geue all sglory vnto God alone; that, knowing what we are, twe be not high minded; that we may be taught to ubeare ech others burdens; that we may xworke forth our own saluation with feare; that we may learn with Paul, that ythe grace of God is sufficient for vs; that we may zsharpen our trust in him, astirre vp our loue towardes him, and pray vnto him hartily, bincrease our faith, cforgeue our sinnes; in a word, that we may runne ⟨p. 697⟩the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie. Then sith these things are thus, it is to be concluded, that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse, euen to saluation: but to this saluation they are so lead, that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle, either of maners or of doctrine. Touching which point, on the one side in respect of maners
in doctrine, we may see by those monstrous heretics, of whom S. John saith, gthey went out from us but they were not of us. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may err, the one, to their trial; the other to their destruction; and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen: that which I proposed is proved sufficiently, that the militant church may err not only in manners but in doctrine also. If any man for proof thereof require examples: he hath the churches of hGalatia, of iCorinth, of kPergamus, of lThyatira, of mSardis, and of nLaodicea. All the which (to omit examples of our own time) the scripture witnesseth to have erred, some of them in manners, some in doctrine, some in both. Yea, the very church of oEphesus it self, which Christ showed to John in the figure of pa candlestick, because it held the light of life: which Timothy abode in, when Paul wrote unto him, that pthe church is the pillar and ground of the truth: even this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by qleaving of her ⟨p. 698⟩first love, that Christ did therefore threaten her rhe would remove her candlestick out of his place unless she repented. She repented not, but by little and little became worse & worse, and heaped fault upon fault, yea many faults upon one, both in manners, and doctrine. Therefore Christ removed her candlestick out of his place: the chosen, who shined with the light of faith, he gathered to himself; the called, who hated the light, he gave over to darkness & the shadow of death; the godly *he made pillars in the temple of his God: the hypocrites (the filth of the temple) he cast out to the dunghill of the ungodly; and he left the city of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impiety. Now, that may befall to every one (as they say) which may befall to any one. Then look what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus, that may to every Church. But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crazed, afterward quite overthrown: and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer. Then is there no Church upon the face of the earth, howsoever it flatter it self with those titles of the candlestick of Christ, & pillar of the truth: there is no Church (I say,) whose body, that is the chosen, may not be overtaken with faintness and darkness:
in doctrine, we may sée by those monstrous heretikes, of whom S. Iohn saith, gthey went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre, the one, to their triall; the other to their destruction; and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen: that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently, that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also. If any man for proofe thereof require examples: hée hath the churches of hGalatia, of iCorinth, of kPergamus, of lThyatira, of mSardis, and of nLa•dicea. All the which (to omit examples of our owne time) the scripture witnesseth to haue erred, some of them in maners, some in doctrine, some in both. Yea, the very church of oEphesus it selfe, which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of pa candlesticke, because it held the light of life: which Timothee abode in, when Paul wrote vnto him, that pthe church is the piller and ground of the truth: euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by qleauing of her ⟨p. 698⟩first loue, that Christ did therefore threaten her rhe would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented. She repented not, but by litle and litle became woorse & woorse, and heaped faut vpon faut, yea many fautes vpon one, both in maners, and doctrine. Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place: the chosen, who shined with the light of faith, he gathered to himselfe; the called, who hated the light, he gaue ouer to darkenes & the shadow of death; the godly
whose dregs, that is the hypocrites, may not be consumed with rottenness and destruction: finally whose whole frame & constitution may not be deprived both of strength and beauty. I know that the Papists answer hereunto, that the militant Church may err for the flocks, the people, that are in it: but the guides and Pastors (whose assembly is called the Church by Christ, saying, stell the Church,) can not. Which is false and fond. For, as there are sheep and goats in the flocks: so the Pastors of them are good, hirelings, or thieves. The good ones do slumber sometimes, as the Apostles: the thirelings fly as soon as the wolf cometh: the uthieves come to steal, to kill and to destroy. Wherefore no Pastor is exempt from danger of erring more or less. And, for the former point that they may err in manners, what need I bring Apostles or Prophets to prove it? The complaint of Bernard is fresh, I would to God it were not too fresh: xthere creepeth an ugly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church. Which words being spoken in reproof of the life and conversation of the Prelates, that is, of the Bishops ⟨p. 699⟩& Pastors of the Church, do show, that not a common disease, but a rot; and that not small, but ugly; and that creeping on, not keeping at a stay; may infect, not only this or that member, but the whole body of Pastors for their manners. Now, that they may also be overseen in doctrine, and err in points of faith: it is plainly proved by those Corinthian Pastors, ywho built hay and stubble upon the foundation that S. Paul had laid: by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth, that zthere should be false teachers in the new Church, as in the old there were false prophets: by aSamosatenus, bArius, & cNestorius, Pastors of famous Churches, and authors of most heinous heresies: yea, by dthe Bishops of the whole world, who all were Arians in a manner, when there were scarce left a few Catholics, when ethe whole world did groan & wonder at it self, that it was become an Arian. But the Papists will reply, that when they say the Church cannot err, they mean the Church in that sense in which the School-men call it representative, that is, Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a general Council. What? And hath that Church (I mean, a general Council) this privilege that it can not err? They hold so in deed.
whose dregges, that is the hypocrites, may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction: finally whose whole frame & constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie. I know that the Papists answere hereunto, that the militant Church may erre for the flockes, the people, that are in it: but the guides and Pastours (whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ, saying, stell the Church,) can not. Which is false and fond. For, as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes: so the Pastours of them are good, hirelinges, or theeues. The good ones do slumber sometimes, as the Apostles: the thirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth: the utheeues come to steale, to kill and to destroy. Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse. And, for the former point that they may erre in maners, what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it? The complaint of Bernard is fresh, I would to God it were not too fresh: xthere creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church. Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates, that is, of the Bishops ⟨p. 699⟩& Pastours of the Church, doo shew, that not a common disease, but a rot; and that not small, but ougly; and that creeping on, not kéeping at a stay; may infect, not onely this or that member, but the whole body of Pastors for their maners. Now, that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine, and erre in pointes of faith: it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours, ywho built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde: by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth, that zthere should be false teachers in the new Church, as in the old there were false prophets: by aSamosatenus, bArius, & cNestorius, Pastors of famous Churches, and autors of most heinous heresies: yea, by
But what will they say of so many Councils of the Arians? which caused fGregory Nazianzene to despair that any good would be done by Councils. But they deny these to have been lawful Councils. What will they answer then to those which them selves confess to have been lawful. The Council of gLaodicea (though a provincial Council, yet allowed by ha general) did set down the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had, and our Church doth hold. The third Council of iCarthage (which therein the Council of kTrent subscribeth to) did add the books of Maccabees & the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon. The lCouncil of Nice appointed bounds and limits, as well for the Bishop of Romes jurisdiction, as for other Bishops. The Council of mLateran gave the sovereignty of ordinary power to the Church of Rome over all other Churches. The Council of nConstance decreed that the Council is above the Pope, and made the Papal power subject to general Councils. Which thing did so highly displease the Council of Florence, that oit undermined the Council of Basil, and guilefully surprised it, for putting ⟨p. 700⟩that in •re against Pope Eugenius. Upon the which points it must needs be granted that one side of these general Councils did err: unless we will say that things which are contrary may be true both. Wherefore, to make an end, sith it is apparent by most clear proofs, that both the chosen and the called, both the flocks, and the Pastors, both in several by them selves and assembled together in general Councils, may err: I am to conclude, with the good liking (I hope) of such as love the truth, that the militant Church may err in manners and doctrine. In the one point whereof, concerning manners, I defend our selves against the malicious slanders of the pPapists: who charge the Church of England with the heresy of Puritans, impudently, and falsely. In the other, concerning doctrine, I do not touch the walls of Babylon with a light finger, but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue.
But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians? which caused fGregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels. But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels. What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull. The Councell of gLaodicea (though a prouinciall Councell, yet allowed by ha generall) did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had, and our Church doth hold. The third Councell of iCarthage (which therein the Councel of kTrent subscribeth to) did adde the bookes of Maccabes & the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon. The lCouncel of Nice appointed boundes and limits, as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction, as for other Bishops. The Councell of mLateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches. The Councell of nConstance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope, and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels. Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence, that oit vndermined the Councell of Basill, and guilefully surprised it, for putting ⟨p. 700⟩that in •re against Pope Eugenius. Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre: vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both. Wherefore, to make an end, sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes, that both the chosen and the called, both the flockes, and the Pastours, both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels, may erre: I am to conclude, with the good liking (I hope) of such as loue the truth, that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine. In the one point whereof, concerning maners, I defend our selues against ye malicious sclanders of the
fIn epist. ad Procopium.
gCan. 59.
hConstantinop. in Trul. can. 2. Concil. Nicene. second. can. 1.Constantinop. in Trul. can. 2. Concil. Nicen. secund. can. 1.
iCan. 47.
kSession. 4.
lCan. 6.
mCapit. 5. apud Innocen•. tert.
nSess. 4. & 5.
oAene. Silu. de Concil. Basil. Concil Flor. & Ferrar. in Con cilij indict.Aene. Silu. de Concil. Basil. Concil Flor. & Ferrar. in Cō cilij indict.
pBristow Motiu. 3 and Demand. 8.Bristow Motiu. 3 and Demaund. 8.
1Whose intolerable presumption is reproved by the third Conclusion too: wherein it resteth to be showed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit & authority then the Church. And although this be so manifestly true, that to have proposed it only, is, to have proved it: yet give me leave I pray to prove it briefly with one reason, I will not trouble you with many. All the words of scripture be the words of truth: some words of the Church be the words of error. But he that telleth the truth always, is more to be credited, then he that lieth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more, then is the Church. That all the words of scripture be the words of truth: it is out of controversy. For qthe whole scripture is inspired of God: and rGod can neither deceive nor be deceived. That some words of the Church be the words of error: if any be not persuaded perhaps by the reasons which I have brought already, let him hear the sharpest and most earnest Patron of the Church confessing it. sAndrad•us Payua, a Doctor of Portugal, the best learned man (in my opinion) of all the papists, rehearseth certain points wherein Councils also may err, even general Councils: in so much that he saith that the very general Council of Chalcedon, one of those four first which tGregory professeth him self to receive as the four books of the holy Gospel, yet Andradius saith, that this Council erred, in that it did 1rashly and without reason (these are his ⟨p. 701⟩own words) ordain, that the Church of Constantinople should be above the Churches of Alexandria and Anti••he. Neither doth he only say that the Council of Chalcedon erred, and contraried the decrees of the Nicene Council: but he addeth also a reason why Councils may err in such cases, to weet, because they follow 2not the secret motion of the holy ghost, but 3idle Blasts of vain reports, and 4mens opinions which deceive oft. A Council then may follow some times the deceitful opinions of men, and not the secret motion of the holy ghost. Let the Councils then give place to the holy scriptures: whereof no part is uttered by the spirit of man, but all by the spirit of God. For if some caviller (to shift of this reason) shall say that we must not account of that error as though it were the judgement of the general Council, because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approve it:
1Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too: wherein it resteth to be shewed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit & autoritie then the Church. And although this be so manifestly true, that to haue proposed it onely, is, to haue proued it: yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason, I will not trouble you with many. All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth: some wordes of the Church be the words of errour. But he that telleth the truth alwayes, is more to be credited, then he that lyeth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more, then is the Church. That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth: it is out of controuersie. For qthe whole scripture is inspired of God: and rGod can neither deceiue nor be deceiued. That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour: if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already, let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it. sAndrad•us Payua, a Doctor of Portugall, the best learned man (in my opinion) of all the papists, reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre, euen generall Councels: in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon, one of those four first which tGregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell, yet Andradius saith, that this Councell erred, in that it did 1rashly and without reason (these are his ⟨p. 701⟩own wordes) ordeine, that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Anti••he. Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred, and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell: but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases, to weete, because they folow 2not the secret motion of the holy ghost, but 3
I would request him, first of all, to weigh, that a general Council and assembly of Bishops must needs be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop; so that, what the greater part of them ordaineth, that is ordained by the Council: next, to consider, that the name of Church may be given to an assembly of Bishops and a Council, but it can not be given to the Bishop of Rome: lastly, to remember, that the Bishop of Rome, Honorius the first, was condemned of heresy by uthe general Council of Constantinople allowed and approved by Agatho Bishop of Rome. Wherefore, take the name of Church in what sense soever you list, be it for the company either of Gods chosen, or of the called too, or of the guides and Pastors, or be it for the Bishop of Rome his own person, though to take it so it seemeth very absurd: the Bishop of Rome him self, if he were to be my judge, shall not be able to deny (unless his forehead be of adamant) but that some of the Churches words are words of error. Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanists them selves be forced to confess, both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous, and that the scripture saith nothing but clear truth: shall there yet be found any man, either so blockishly unskilful, or so frowardly past shame, as that he dare affirm that the Church is of greater credit and authority then the holy scripture? xPighius hath done it, in his treatise of the holy government of the church. Where though he in […] ••llify with gallant salves his cursed speech: yet, to build the ⟨p. 702⟩tower of his Church, and Antichrist, with the ruins of Christ and of the holy scripture: first he saith: touching the writings of the Apostles, that they were given to the church, *not that they should rule our faith and religion, but that they should be ruled rather: and then he concludeth that the authority of the church is not only not inferior, not only equal, nay, it is superior also after a sort to the authority of the scriptures. yPliny reporteth that there was at Rome a certain dial set in the field of Flora to note the shadows of the sun: the notes and marks of which dial had not agreed with the sun for the space of thirty years.
I would request him, first of all, to weigh, that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop; so that, what the greater part of them ordeineth, that is ordeined by the Councell: next, to consider, that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell, but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome: lastly, to remember, that the Bishop of Rome, Honorius the first, was condemned of heresie by uthe generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome. Wherefore, take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list, be it for the company either of Gods chosen, or of the called too, or of the guides and Pastours, or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person, though to take it so it seemeth very absurd: the Bishop of Rome him selfe, if he were to be my iudge, shall not be able to deny (vnlesse his forhead be of adamant) but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour. Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse, both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous, and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth: shall there yet be found any man, either so blockishly vnskilfull, or so frowardly past shame, as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture? xPighius hath doon it, in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church. Where though he in 〈…〉••llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech: yet, to build the ⟨p. 702⟩tower of his Church, and Antichrist, with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture: first he saith: touching the writings of the Apostles, that they were giuen to the church, *not that they should rule our faith and religion, but that they should bee ruled rather: and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour, not onely equall, nay, it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures. yPlinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne: the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares.
uConcil. 6. •••nor. Constan•inop. action. 13.
xEcclesiast. hi••rar. l. •. c. •.
*Non ut praeessent sed ut subcisent.Non vt praeessent sed vt subcisent.
And the cause thereof was this, as Pliny saith, that either the course of the sun was disordered and changed by some means of heaven, or else the whole earth was slipped away from her centre. The Church of Rome seemeth to be very like this dial in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territory to show the shadows of the sun, even of zthe sun of righteousness, that is, of Christ: but her notes and marks have not agreed with Christ these many years together. Not that there is any fault in the dial, I mean in the Church, (for that can not be, as Pighius proveth prettily:) but because perhaps either Christ him self hath took an other course, and is altered I know not by what changeableness of God, or else the whole scripture is slipped from the point in the which it stood. But let us (right worshipful) who know that the dials and clocks do miss often, but the course of the sun is certain and constant, let us make more account of the sun, then of a dial; of heaven, then of Pliny; of the Zodiac circle, then of the field of Flora; of God, then of men; of Christ, then of Pighius; of the holy scripture, then of the church. For God forbid there should be any (amongst us) so beastly a monster in the shape of man, as to set up Antichrist in the temple of God above God: and to attribute more to any, either man, or multitude of men, then to the Lord of majesty. But so do they, no doubt, who have the Church in greater regard then the scripture. For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God: the voice of the Church is the voice of men. Then if it be impious to set up men above God: doubtless, to set up the Church above the scripture, it is Antichristian. Nor yet do I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God. For, in appeasing the offences ⟨p. 703⟩and reproving the sins of brethren, aif thy brother (saith Christ) refuse to hear the church, let him be to thee as a heathen man, and a Publican. But the holy spirit, that is the spirit of truth, doth speak, both alone, and always, in the scripture. An human spirit, that is a spirit of error, hath a part sometimes in the speech of the Church. Both which points I have proved by the word of God, the evidence of the thing, and the confessions of our adversaries.
And the cause thereof was this, as Plinie saith, that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen, or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre. The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne, euen of zthe sunne of righteousnes, that is, of Christ: but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither. Not that there is any faute in the diall, I meane in the Church, (for that can not be, as Pighius proueth pretily:) but because perhaps either Christ him selfe hath tooke an other course, and is altered I know not by what changeablenes of God, or els the whole scripture is slipt from the point in the which it stood. But let vs (right woorshipfull) who know that the dials and clockes doo mysse often, but the course of the sunne is certaine and constant, let vs make more account of the sunne, then of a diall; of heauen, then of Plinie; of the Zodiake circle, then of the field of Flora; of God, then of men; of Christ, then of Pighius; of the holy scripture, then of the church. For God forbid there should be any (amongst vs) so beastly a monster in the shape of man, as to set vp Antichrist in the temple of God aboue God: and to attribute more to any, either man, or multitude of men, then to the Lord of maiestie. But so doo they, no dout, who haue the Church in greater regard then the scripture. For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God: the voice of the Church is the voice of men. Then if it be impious to set vp men aboue God: doubtlesse, to set vp the Church aboue the scripture, it is Antichristian. Nor yet doo I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God. For, in appeasing the offenses ⟨p. 703⟩and reprouing the sinnes of brethren, aif thy brother (saith Christ) refuse to heare the church, let him be to thee as a heathen man, and a Publican. But the holy spirit, that is the spirit of truth, doth speake, both alone, and alwaies, in the scripture. An humaine spirit, that is a spirit of errour, hath a part sometimes in the spéech of the Church. Both which pointes I haue proued by the word of God, the euidence of the thing, and the confessions of our aduersaries.
Why do we not then acknowledge that the royal prerogative of this privilege, to be altogether exempt from all error, is due to scripture only; and confess, as bAustin doth against the Donatists, that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonical scripture, that all things which are written therein be true, and right: but the letters and writings of Bishops, as of Cyprian, yea the very Councils, not provincial only, but also full and general, have often times somewhat that may be amended. I, for my part, do gladly both allow this sentence of Austin, and judge it worthy to be allowed, as agreeable to the trueth. And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit and authority then the church. Thus you have my judgement (right learned Inceptors) touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of; opened in more words perhaps, then your wisdom; in fewer, then the weight of the things required. But I have waded so far in the opening of them, as I thought the Proctors might well give me leave by the straitness of time. As for that which needeth to be discussed farther: I will assay to open it, as well as I can (if occasion serve,) when the adversary arguments shall be proposed in disputation.
Why doo we not then acknowledge that the royall prerogatiue of this priuilege, to bee altogither exempt from all errour, is due to scripture onely; and confesse, as bAustin doth against the Donatistes, that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonicall scripture, that all things which are writen therein be true, and right: but the letters and writings of Bishops, as of Cyprian, yea the very Councels, not prouinciall onely, but also full and generall, haue often times somewhat that may be amended. I, for my part, doo gladly both allow this sentence of Austin, and iudge it woorthy to be allowed, as agréeable to the trueth. And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed, that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the church. Thus you haue my iudgement (right learned Inceptors) touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of; opened in more wordes perhaps, then your wisedome; in fewer, then the weight of the things required. But I haue waded so farre in the opening of them, as I thought the Proctors might wel giue me leaue by the straitnes of time. As for that which néedeth to be discussed farther: I will assay to open it, as well as I can (if occasion serue,) when the aduersarie arguments shall bée proposed in disputation.
Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully, holding this hereticall opinion (amongst others) that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly: which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely. On the other side in respect of doctrine,
Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly, saying that euerie one of the elect may erre, as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth: but, that all the faithfull gathered together in one, cannot erre; which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre. It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout, that the elect and chosen may erre, as in maners, so in doctrine too: though in such sort that they shall not die, but liue notwithstanding, and be cured of their errors. Marry, that they who are not chosen, but onely called, may erre euen to death, as well in doctrine as in maners: in maners, it appeereth by the example of
he made pillers in the temple of his God: the hypocrites (the filth of the temple) he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly; and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie. Now, that may befall to euery one (as they say) which may befall to any one. Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus, that may to euery Church. But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased, afterwarde quite ouerthrowne: and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer. Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth, howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ, & piller of the truth: there is no Church (I say,) whose bodie, that is the chosen, may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse:
the whole world did grone & wonder at it selfe, that it was become an Arian. But the Papistes will reply, that when they say the Church cānot erre, they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue, that is, Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell. What? And hath that Church (I meane, a generall Councell) this priuilege that it can not erre? They hold so in deede.
Papists: who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans, impudently, and falsly. In the other, concerning doctrine, I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger, but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue.
mens opinions which deceiue oft. A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men, and not the secret motion of the holy ghost. Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures: whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man, but all by the spirit of God. For if some cauiller (to shift of this reason) shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell, because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it:
