The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
that such as do use it, may be thought to dote; such as defend it, seem to have a lust to be mad with reason. It remaineth for me to entreat of discipline: whereof this is the order set down in the scripture, that the church should be governed xby the ministers of God, yaccording to the laws of God, zto the salvation of Gods people. And what one of these points is kept in the church of Rome? In the which the ministers of God are removed from governance by the Pope: who, being not a voluntary Senator (as aTully jesteth at Asinius) himself chosen by him self, but a voluntary tyrant, doth take upon him self the rule of the whole church. Who to get the sovereignty that he aspireth to, doth cast off the folly of bPaul, and of cPeter: and dneither will him self, nor suffereth his to be subject unto higher powers. Who eauthorizeth him self to give and take away the dominions and kingdoms of the whole world, as if that all Princes held their right of him. Who challengeth fthe two swords (as he termeth them,) the spiritual and temporal, and that by the gospel, because it was said (for sooth) by the Apostles, gBehold, her• are two swords. Who, having committed the temporal sword in part to civill magistrates, and reserved it in part to him self; hhath put up the spiritual sword of all Pastors into his own sheath. Who of church-ministers hath made him self
Cornelius the Centurion, (which Peter yet would never have done,) but the Lords of Centurions, even Kings and Kaisers, Emperors and Empresses, to kiss his blessed feet. Finally, who
as full of riotous pomp, and pride, as ever were the Persian kings;
z His clothes bedecked with precious stones, •his gorgeous mitre dight
With jewels rare,
Pyropus bright,
O very Trojan trulls, not Trojans:
that such as doo vse it, may bee thought to doate; such as defende it, seeme to haue a lust to bee madd with reason. It remaineth for me to intreate of discipline: whereof this is the order set downe in the scripture, that the church should be gouerned xby the ministers of God, yaccording to the lawes of God, zto the saluatiō of Gods people. And what one of these pointes is kept in the church of Rome? In the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope: who, being not a voluntarie Senator (as aTully iesteth at Asinius) himselfe chosen by him selfe, but a voluntary tyrant, doth take vpon him selfe the rule of ye whole church. Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to, doth cast off the foly of bPaul, and of cPeter: and dneither will him selfe, nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers. Who eautoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world, as if that all Princes held their right of him. Who chalengeth fthe two swordes (as he termeth them,) the spirituall and temporall, and that by the gospell, because it was saide (for sooth) by the Apostles, gBeholde, her• are two swordes. Who, hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates, and reserued it in part to him selfe; hhath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath. Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe iCardinals, kfelowes of kinges, gardians of Princes, Protectors of nations, a ⟨p. 732⟩Senate meete for such a •arquin. Who exacteth an oth of lEmperours, of mBishops, of nChristian common wealthes, Uniuersities, and Churches to be obedient vnto him. Who oadmitteth, I say not pCornelius the Centurion, (which Peter yet would neuer haue doon,) but the Lordes of Centurions, euen Kinges and Keisars, Emperours and Empresses, to kisse his blessed feete. Finally, who qbeing in Princely attire, and accompanied with Princely traine; serued not by common, but by noble men; wearing, not a single, but a tripl• Crowne; scalled by his Parasites 1our Lord God the Pope, tby discréete Doctors, 2most good in grace, most great in power; uas full of riotous pompe, and pride, as euer were the Persian kings;
z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones, •his gorgeous miter dight
With iewels rare,r with glistring gold, & with *Pyropus bright,
O very Troian truls, not Troians:
dc. significasti. c. si diligenti. de •oro compet.
ec. ad Apostolicae. de re judic. in sexto. •lement. c. Pastoralis. de re judic. Franc. Gomar. in hist. occident. Ind. cap. 101.c. ad Apostolicae. de re iudic. in sexto. •lement. c. Pastoralis. de re iudic. Franc. Gomar. in hist. occident. Ind. cap. 101.
fExtra. c. unam sanctam. de maiorit. & obedient.Extra. c. vnam sanctam. de maiorit. & obediēt.
hDist. 1•. amp; 21▪ & 22. c. sign ficasti. de elect.
iOnuphr. de orig. Cardin.
kCerem. eccl. Rom. lib. 1. & 3.
lClement. c. Romani. de jureiurand.Clement. c. Romani. de iureiurand.
m••o N. episco•••. de ju•e•iur.••o N. episco•••. de iu•e•iur.
nConc•l Trid. Se•s. 25. de relo••. c. 2. & Bulla Pij quart. de juram. form. in open. Concil. T•id.Conc•l Trid. Se•s. 25. de relo••. c. 2. & Bulla Pij quart. de iuram. form. in oppen. Concil. T•id.
oCeremon. Rom▪ eccles. l. 1. sect. 5.Ceremon. Rom▪ e•cles. l. 1. sect. 5.
sCanonist. extra. Johan. vigefim. second. cap. •um inter. In Glossa.Canonist. extra. Iohan. vigefim. secund. cap. •um inter. In Glossa.
1Dominus Deus noster Papa.
tThom. Stapleton. in Princip. ••d. doctr. Praef. ad Greg. decimum tert. Marian. Victor. in Tom. 4. operum Hi•ron. Praef. ad Pium quint.
2Optimus. Maximus: that is, (as Tully expoundeth it) Optimus boni•ate, potestate Maximus. • title, which was given to none of old time, but to God only: no not amō • the Heathens. Now the Papists give it to the […]. Alphonsi […] de consid▪ ad Eugen. lib. 4.Optimus. Maximus: that is, (as Tully expoundeth it) Optimus boni•ate, potestate Maximus. • title, which was giuen to none of olde time, but to God onely: no not amō • the Heathens. Now the Papists giue it to the 〈…〉. Alphonsi 〈…〉 de consid▪ ad Eugen. lib. 4.
uPlatin. […] it. Pont•in Pagl. second.Platin. 〈…〉 it. Pont•in Pagl. secund.
rBapt. Mantuan. ad Inn•cent. octau.
*A precious stone, called a Carbuncle. Of the which kind one that tell out of the Popes mitre (by a mischance at his coronation) was worth six thousand crowns. Platin. in vit. Clement. quint.A precious stone, called a Carbuncle. Of the which kinde one that tell out of the Popes miter (by a mischaunce at his coronation) was woorth sixe thousand crownes. Platin. in vit. Clement. quint.
hath taken the state ecclesiastical of Christ, appointed in noble order as an army set in array, and hath transformed it as it were with an enchantment of the whore of Babylon into a 3visible monarchy, and 4kingdom of the Romans. And that the old saying might be fulfilled, new Lords, new laws; such lips, such lettuce, (as one said of an ass that was eating thistles:) this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new laws to govern his kingdom, in stead of Gods laws which Christ would have to rule his Church; and in stead of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordained his Canon law. Touching the unrighteousness of the which law, (least any man should think me perhaps to find fault with that I have no skill in, as the shoemaker did, whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shoo:) I had liefer you should hear the judgement of a learned Doctor and professor of the law, then mine. Francis Duaren, a man of great skill in both the laws, civill, and canon, and named amongst lawyers the chiefest lawyer of our time, hath written a learned treatise touching the holy functions and livings of the Church, as it were an abridgement of the canon law: allowed by the judgement of the Parliament of Paris•, and set forth with the privilege of the French king, that no man ⟨p. 733⟩can justly […] either the author, or the work, as heretical. In c[…] then of the said treatise, declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts, to weet, Decrees, and […] Decrees, which were gathered together by Gratian; […], epistles written by sundry Popes: he saith, that in the •ir•t volume of Decretals, containing five books set out in the name of Gregory the ninth, there are many things that do much degenerate and grow out of kind from that old discipline comprised in the former book of Decrees. And hence arose that saying, which is common and famous amongst our countrymen, (he meaneth the Frenchmen:) Things have gone ill with men, *since tales were added to Decrees, that is, since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretals did bear sway. For the Church-causes had lost their old simplicity, when Decrees were patched out with those tales: as the world is wont to grow worse and worse, So destinies do provide That all things fall unto decay, and back eftsoons they slide.
hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ, appointed in noble order as an army set in aray, and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a 3visisible monarchie, and 4kingdome of the Romans. And that the old saying might be fulfilled, new Lordes, new lawes; such lippes, such lettise, (as one said of an asse that was eating thistles:) this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome, in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church; and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law. Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law, (least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in, as the shoomaker did, whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe:) I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law, then mine. Francis Duaren, a man of great skill in both the lawes, ciuill, and canon, and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time, hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church, as it were an abridgement of the canon law: allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Paris•, and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king, that no man ⟨p. 733⟩can iust•y 〈…〉 either the autor, or the worke, as hereticall. In c〈…〉 then of the said treatise, declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts, to weete, Decrees, and 〈…〉 Decrees, which were gathered together by Gratian; 〈…〉, epistles writen by sundry Popes: he saith, that in the •ir•t volume of Decretales, conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth, there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees. And hence arose that saying, which is common and famous amongst our countriemen, (he meaneth the Frenchmen:) Things haue gone ill with men, *since tales were added to Decrees, that is, since ye time that in steed of ye Decrees the Decretales did beare sway. For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie, when Decrees were patched out with those tales: as the world is wont to growe worse and worse, So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay, and backe efisoones they slide.
3As Sanders te•meth it in his books of the […].As Sanders te•meth it in his bookes of the 〈…〉.
4As it is named by Turrian the Jesuit, De ecclesia & ordinat. ministr. l. 1. c. 2.As it is named by Turrian the Iesuit, De ecclesia & ordinat. ministr. l. 1. c. 2.
cPraesat. Franc. ••aren. in lib. de facris ecclesiae ministerijs a• beneficijs.
*In Latin it is, ex quo decretis alae aecesserunt: that is, word forword▪ since wing; were added to decrees. But to express in English the allusion which the Latin saying hath (in decretis and alae) to decretals: I have changed the word. Yet keeping just the sense. For those wings are tales, devises of ambitious Popes, and foolish fancies of their Parasites.In Latin it is, ex quo decretis alae aecesserunt: that is, word forword▪ since winge; were added to decrees. But to expresse in English the allusion which the Latin saying hath (in decretis and alae) to decretales: I haue chaunged the word. Yet keeping iust the sense. For those winges are tales, deuises of ambitious Popes, and foolish fansies of their Parasites.
As for the other volume, the sixth book of Decretals, which Boniface the eighth added, it hath not been received in the kingdom of France, because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to have been purposely made (the most part of them) in hatred and despite of Philip the French king, and for the game of the court of Rome. No not the Clementines neither, nor Extravagants, the last part of the Decretals, are void of like faults: nay, the later laws of the Popes be commonly worse then the former. And this is the body of the Canon-law, these are the Popes statutes, by the which, though very unmeet for the church (in Duaren's judgement) yet is the church of Rome governed: and it is so governed, that dthe Decrees (which are the better part) have less authority; the Decretals (which are worse) have greater force in Church-causes, and are more authentical Yea, the matter came to that pass, that eGratian the principal author of the Canon law, would have had 1the Decretal epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy, and reckoned in the number of the Canonical scriptures. For the better compassing and credit whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of fS. Austins. But it would not •ay. In so much that the Papists, gAlfonsus, and hAndradius, are them selves ashamed ⟨p. 734⟩of that his, either wilful fault, or oversight. The Decretals therefore remain, not in the number of the Canonical scriptures, which hope the Giants failed of through the division of their tongues: yet equal in authority to the canonical scriptures, yea, above them, in deciding Church-causes at Rome. For that which S. 1Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since, he might complain off to any Pope in our time, if he were alive: the laws keep a great stir daily in your Palace, 2but the laws of Justinian, not the laws of the Lord. Whether justly or no: look you to that. For doubtless the law of the Lord is undefiled, and converteth souls. But these are 3not so much laws as law-quarrels, and strifes subverting judgement. Besides that, the manner of dealing which is used in debating causes is 4too too abominable, and such as is marvellous unseemly for the church: nay it were not seemly for the common place, where civill matters are handled.
As for the other volume, the sixth booke of Decretales, which Bo•iface the eighth added, it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France, because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made (the most part of them) in hatred and despite of Philip the French king, and for the game of the court of Rome. No not the Clementines neither, nor Extrauagants, the last part of the Decretales, are voyde of like faultes: nay, the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former. And this is the body of the Canon-law, these are the Popes statutes, by the which, though very vnméete for the church (in Duarens iudgement) yet is the church of Rome gouerned: and it is so gouerned, that dthe Decrees (which are the better part) haue lesse autoritie; the Decretales (which are woorse) haue greater force in Church-causes, and are more authenticall Yea, the matter came to that passe, that eGratian the principall autor of the Canon law, would haue had 1the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy, and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures. For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of fS. Austins. But it would not •ay. In so much that the Papists, gAlfonsus, and hAndradius, are them selues ashamed ⟨p. 734⟩of that his, either wilfull fault, or ouersight. The Decretales therefore remaine, not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures, which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs: yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures, yea, aboue them, in deciding Church-causes at Rome. For that which S. 1Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since, he might complaine off to any Pope in our time, if he were aliue: the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace, 2
dLancelot. in comment. instit. Jur. Can. lib. 3.Lancelot. in comment. instit. Iur. Can. lib. 3.
He meaneth that manner, which kthe Popes Court of Chancery at Rome had bred long before, lthough it were not grown yet to that bigness to which it shot up afterward: even that manner of dealing, which is practised min the brabbles and cavils of advocates, fitter to subvert then to find the trueth; in the pleas of lawyers, who bring in sleights of falsehood and fraud against innocency, stop up the ways of judgement, beat down the simplicity of trueth; in dilatory shifts, and other such instruments of making gain by suites, which came from the laws, but from the laws of Justinian (as Bernard saith) not of the Lord. These are the laws then which the Pope useth, and useth, to what end? which is the last point. He useth them, not to further the salvation of Gods people, but to satisfy (if yet *a horseleech might be satisfied) his own and his Courtiers unsatiable covetousness, ambition, and lust. For what hath the outrageous tyranny of the beast respected else but that, in the Church-offices, Church-censures, and Church-causes? Why hath he withdrawn suites from other places to the Court of Rome? Why hath he reserved cases to him self? Why hath he dispensed with laws at his pleasure? why hath he made and unmade them? He hath taken into his own hands nthe elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to. The ⟨p. 735⟩Christian ministers, magistrates, and people he hath robbed and spoiled of their due and right. He hath committed the feeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures. He hath let and set the charge, or the commodity rather, of churches, as he would himself, and to whom he would, oby presentations, preventions, provisions, reservations, translations, permutations, advowsons, & commendams. He hath ordained Pastors without a room of Pastorship, Ministers without a function: benefices without cure, sacrileges without punishment. The goods of the church, that is the living of the Pastors, and maintenance of the poor, he hath impaired with pensions, embezzled with first fruits, made away with appropriations, seized on with sundry wrongs, and spent them wastefully with lusts, to the common out-cries of men reproving him for ppride, for qriot, for rextortion, and for ssimony.
He meaneth that maner, which kthe Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before, lthough it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde: euen that maner of dealing, which is practised min the brabbles and cauils of aduocates, fitter to subuert then to finde the trueth; in the pleas of lawiers, who bring in sleights of falshode and fraud against innocencie, stop vp the waies of iudgement, beate down the simplicitie of trueth; in dilatory shifts, and other such instruments of making gaine by suites, which came from the lawes, but from the lawes of Iustinian (as Bernard saith) not of the Lord. These are the lawes then which the Pope vseth, and vseth, to what end? which is the last point. He vseth them, not to furder the saluation of Gods people, but to satisfie (if yet *a horseleach might be satisfyed) his owne and his Courtiers vnsatiable couetousnesse, ambition, and lust. For what hath the outragious tyranny of the beast respected els but that, in the Church-offices, Church-censures, and Church-causes? Why hath he withdrawen suites from other places to the Court of Rome? Why hath he reserued cases to him selfe? Why hath he dispensed with lawes at his pleasure? why hath he made and vnmade them? He hath taken into his own hands nthe elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to. The ⟨p. 735⟩Christian ministers, magistrates, and people he hath robbed and spoyled of their due and right. He hath committed the féeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures. He hath let and set the charge, or the commoditie rather, of churches, as he would himselfe, and to whom he would, oby presentations, preuentions, prouisions, reseruations, translatiōs, permutations, aduousons, & commendaes. He hath ordeined Pastors without a roome of Pastorship, Ministers without a functiō: benefices without cure, sacrileges without punishment. The goods of the church, that is the liuing of the Pastors, and maintenance of the poore, he hath impaired with pensions, embesilled with first fruites, made away with appropriations, seazed on with sundry wrongs, and spent them wastfully with lustes, to the common out-cries of men reprouing him for
nCancellariae Apostolicae regula 2. and the rest which follow.Cancellariae Apostolicae regula 2. and the rest which folow.
oFor the particulars hereof, and their grounds: see Institut. juris canon. & Franc. Duar. de sacr. eccles. minist. acben. & Gentian. Heruet. de reparand. ecclesiast. discipline.For the particulars hereof, and their grounds: see Institut. iuris canon. & Franc. Duar. de sacr. eccles. minist. acben. & Gentian. Heruet. de reparand. ecclesiast. disciplin.
pAmmian. Marcel lib. 27.
qBapt. Mant. Fastor. lib 5. in Urban.Bapt. Mant. Fastor. lib 5. in Vrban.
He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose, as equity, as reason, as peace, as the judgement of tCouncils and uFathers would he should have done: but he hath removed them thence to be heard and determined at Rome, what by xreserving of cases to him self, what by yfetching matters 1with the fishers signet, what by zexempting men from their Ordinaries, what by allowing aappeals from all coasts to the Lord Apostolic. The censures of the church in excommunication ordained bto cut the wicked off (as rotten members) from the company of Christians, he hath used and exercised, not against the wicked, cof whom a sink hath flowed of old time to Rome, and doverfloweth it still; not against thieves, of whom (a ePope witnesseth) Rome is made a den; not against murderers, ffor whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome; not against adulterers, whose offence was punished with death by the gold Romans, hnow they are toyed with; not against whores, iwhich set themselves to open sale under the Pope, who playeth the baud and gaineth by it; not against whoremongers, ⟨p. 736⟩kwhom he preferreth somewhere before married persons, and lechery before chastity, which 2the Canonist noteth as a wonderful case: but he hath exercised it lagainst Emperors, Princes, States, and nations, that would not serve him at a beck; against any mmagistrate that did but lay hands upon a clergy-man; against any nChristian, that denied his parish-priest a little tithe; against whole assemblies and companies of the faithful, owho worshipped (as pPaul) the God of their fathers after that way, (which Papists call heresy,) believing all things which are written in the law and the Prophets. Whom he with most villainous cruelty and treachery, as if they had been sheep appointed to the slaughter, qhath rid away by torments, by fire, by sword; not himself, for rhe came not into the judgement hall least he should be defiled, but she hath delivered them to Pilate to be crucified: and when the streams of water did flow with blood at Paris, old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex, or age, or state, the sang a song of joy for the French marriage, and celebrated with bonfires and processions at Rome a most outrageous act of more then Scythian barbarousness.
He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose, as equitie, as reason, as peace, as the iudgement of tCouncels and uFathers would he should haue doon: but he hath remoued them thence to be heard and determined at Rome, what by xreseruing of cases to him selfe, what by yfetching matters 1with the fishers signet, what by zexempting men from their Ordinaries, what by allowing aappeales from all coastes to the Lord Apostolike. The censures of the church in excommunication ordeined bto cut the wicked off (as rotten members) from the company of Christians, he hath vsed and exercised, not against the wicked, cof whom a sinke hath flowed of old time to Rome, and douerfloweth it still; not against theeues, of whom (a ePope witnesseth) Rome is made a denne; not against murderers, ffor whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome; not against adulterers, whose offense was punished with death by the gold Romans, hnow they are toyed with; not against whoores, iwhich set themselues to open sale vnder the Pope, who playeth the baude and gaineth by it; not against whooremongers,
uCyprian. epist. 35. Chrysostom. ad Innocent. epist. 1. Bernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 3.
xConcil. Trid. Sess. 14. cap. 7. Extra. c. etsi dominici. de panit. & remiss.
yConcil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. 20. Per special rescriptū signaturae Sanctitatis Sua.Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. 20. Per speciale rescriptū signaturae Sanctitatis Sua.
1Sub anulo piscatoris. The Popes privy seal called the fishers signet, that is, S. Peters: though belike S. Peter did not fish with such.Sub anulo piscatoris. The Popes priuy seale called the fishers signet, that is, S. Peters: though belike S. Peter did not fish with such.
zBernard. de confid. ad Eugen. lib. 3.
a2. q. 6. c. ad Romanam. c. placuit ut presbytery. Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. •0.2. q. 6. c. ad Romanam. c. placuit vt presbyteri. Concil. Trid. Sess. 24. cap. •0.
dBapt. Mantuan. Siluar. lib. 2. Roma, quid insanis toties?
eAen. Siluius (called in his Popedom Pius the second) hist. de Asia. min. cap. 77.Aen. Siluius (called in his Popedome Pius the second) hist. de Asia. min. cap. 77.
fAs the same Pope witnesseth in the same place. And the Bravi (in Italy) are famous with their sanctuaries. Andr. Masius in Josuam cap. 20.
What should I reckon up his tyrannical laws, wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably? Of usingle life imposed on ministers of the word, of xauricular confession, of ythe choice of meats, apparel, and days, of zthe new and strange canonizing of Saints, of apilgrimages to holy land, of bthe vows of Monks and Nuns, of cthe state and rites of marriage, of dinnumerable ceremonies, partly unfruitful, partly foolish, partly impious, ewhereof some sprang from heathens, some from the Jews, and some from heretics. What should I say of his wicked dispensations, if yet they deserve the name of dispensations, and not (as fBernard rather doth call them) dissipations; wherewith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted, nothing so profane which he hath not permitted: that ga brother may marry his own brothers wife, han uncle his sisters daughter; that Church-offices and livings may be given ito boys, to Simoniacal merchants, ⟨p. 737⟩to unlearned persons, and such as are unfit for them; that kone man may have a plurality of benefices; that lhe who hath the benefice, need not attend the office, the steward not provide meat for Gods household, the servant and minister not do the work of God, the angel and messenger not show the will of God, the shepherd and pastor not feed the flock committed to him; that msubjects may be discharged of their oath and fealty, & licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince, yea, take arms against him, yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord; that npromise may be broken with God and with men; that abominations most horrible may be committed; that all things divine and humane may be perverted; right and wrong, heaven and earth, lawful and unlawful, may be confounded together. And can it be doubted but that this so monstrous, so pestilent, so misshapen foulness and corruption of laws and of discipline, was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome, not to set forward the salvation of the Church, but to fill his greedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion? Do not his own oFryers witness that all things
Priests, Churches, altars, sacraments, & crowns, (in Peters fold,)
Fire, incense, prayers, *heaven, and God, are set out to be sold?
Do not his pCourtiers allow of their judgement who say that the pomp of the church would be abated, which he sought to increase with annoyance of religion?
What should I recken vp his tyrannical lawes, wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably? Of usingle life imposed on ministers of the word, of xauricular confession, of ythe choise of meates, apparell, and daies, of zthe new and strange canonizing of Saints, of apilgrimages to holy land, of bthe vowes of Moonkes and Nunnes, of cthe state and rites of mariage, of dinnumerable ceremonies, partly vnfruitfull, partly foolish, partly impious, ewhereof some sprang from heathens, some from the Iewes, and some from heretikes. What should I say of his wicked dispensations, if yet they deserue the name of dispensations, and not (as fBernard rather doth call them) dissipations; wherwith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted, nothing so profane which he hath not permitted: that ga brother may mary his own brothers wife, han vncle his sisters daughter; that Church-offices and liuings may be geuen ito boyes, to Simoniacall marchantes, ⟨p. 737⟩to vnlerned persons, and such as are vnfitte for them; that kone man may haue a pluralitie of benefices; that l
uPope Syricius (epist. 4.) out of S. Paul, Rom. 8.8. Concil. Trident. Sess. 24. can. 9.
Do not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wiped of their goods and substance by first fruits, and other policies of the Popes,r to the end that he and his Courtly train may be more rich in wealth,s more gallant in bravery, more high in Princely state?t Hath not all Christendom borne to their grief the yoke of the ambition and covetousness of Rome, which crieth out like Judas, what will ye give me? There is extant in print the defence and Apology of the Church of England, showing fresh marks of the Roman tyranny, wherewith our country hath been seared as with a hot burning iron. There is extant a supplication of the parliament of Paris, wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions, injuries, and guiles of the Court of Rome. There are extant vthe hundred grievances ⟨p. 738⟩of Germany, whose complaints (written as it were with their own blood) do show with what outrage the See of Rome hath thrown down, oppressed, bruised, and spoiled that most noble nation. There are extant xinfinite books of lamentations, written by learned men of all coasts & quarters in the middest of the Papacy: confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed. The yPapists themselves in the Council of Trent do not confess it only, but also witness it by public writing to the world. There was gathered together a Council at Constance, about an eight score years since, zthat the church might be reformed, both in the head and in the members. The matter, not being accomplished at Constance, was aenterprised again at Basil. But Eugenius the fourth (who was Pope then) could not abide the reformation, and therefore brevoked the Council of Basil by messages and bulls: which sith they disobeyed, he brake it up by force of arms. And whereas there was made an 2act by the French king with his States, that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Council should be of force in France: cthe Popes who succeeded Eugenius never rested, till they had gotten that act repealed. The last hope remained in the Council of Trent: and truly many things were decreed dthere for points of reformation wisely, and worthily. But three spots of mischiefs, touched by eHeruetus (a Papist, of so much the greater weight his testimony is against Papists,) do renew the old corruptions:
Doo not q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wyped of their goods and substance by first fruites, and other policies of the Popes,r to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth,s more galant in brauery, more high in Princely state?t Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome, which crieth out like Iudas, what wil ye geue me? There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England, shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny, wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron. There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris, wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions, iniuries, and guiles of the Court of Rome. There are extant vthe hundred greeuances ⟨p. 738⟩of Germany, whose complaints (writen as it were with their own blood) doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down, oppressed, brused, and spoyled that most noble nation. There are extant xinfinite bookes of lamentations, writen by lerned men of al coastes & quarters in the middest of the Papacy: confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed. The yPapistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely, but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world. There was gathered together a Councell at Constance, about an eight score yéeres since, zthat the church might be reformed, both in the head and in the members. The matter, not being accomplished at Constance, was aenterprised againe at Basill. But Eugenius the fourth (who was Pope then) could not abide the reformation, and therefore breuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles: which sith they disobeied, he brake it vp by force of armes. And whereas there was made an
sIn the defence of the Apology, part. •.In the defense of the Apologie, part. •.
tAd Ludovicum undecimum, pro libertat• ecclesiae Gallicae aduersus Rom. aulam defensio Parisiensis cutiae. It is printed with Duaren. de sacr. eccle. minist.Ad Ludouicum vndecimum, pro libertat• ecclesiae Gallicae aduersus Rom. aulam defensio Parisiensis cutiae. It is pri••ted with Duaren. de sacr. eccle. minist.
vC•ntum gravamina nationis Germanic.C•ntum grauamina nationis Germanic•.
xBernard. in Cant. In epist. De consid. ad Eugen. & passim. Franc. Petrarch. in cant. & epist. Bapt. Man•. in Fast. Silu. ••log. de calam. temp. & caet. Marsil. Patavin. in Defens. pacis. See Illyricus in his book entitled rests veritatis superiorum temporum contra Papam.Bernard. in Cant. In epist. De consid. ad Eugen. & passim. Franc. Petrarch. in cant. & epist. Bapt. Man•. in Fast. Silu. ••log. de calam. temp. & caet. Marsil. Patauin. in Defens. pacis. See Illyricus in his booke entitled restes veritatis superiorum temporum contra Papam.
yConcil. Trid. Sess. 6. de reformat. cap. 1. In these very terms, collapsam admodum ecclesiasticam disciplinā.Concil. Trid. Sess. 6. de reformat. cap. 1. In these very termes, collapsam admodum ecclesiasticam disciplinā.
one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not observed yet; another, that although they should be observed, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet do they little good, because the Pope is not bound to laws him self, and he dispenseth with whom he list: so that medicines heal not the wounds, but make them worse, as long as the Pope may repeal, alter, pervert, and break through the decrees of the Council, with his dispensations. And, out of all doubt, that detestable clause fannexed to decrees of reformation in the Council, 1provided always that the Popes authority be safe, and no way prejudiced: doth show the Roman Church to be not only sick, but also past hope of recovering her health. For ⟨p. 739⟩as in mens bodies the greater the spleen waxeth, the lesser wax the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Popes authority is, the less safe will all parts of the Church be.
one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not obserued yet; another, that although they should be obserued, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet doo they litle good, because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe, and he dispenseth with whom he list: so that medicines heale not the wounds, but make them woorse, as long as the Pope may repeale, alter, peruert, and breake through the decrees of the Councell, with his dispensations. And, out of all dout, that detestable clause fannexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell, 1prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe, and no way preiudiced: dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick, but also past hope of recouering her health. For ⟨p. 739⟩as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth, ye lesser waxe the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Popes autoritie is, the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be.
fConcil. Trid. de reform. Sess. 9. in proaem. & Sess. 25. de reform. cap. ult.Concil. Trid. de reform. Sess. 9. in proaem. & Sess. 25. de reform. cap. vlt.
1Salua semper in omnibus autoritate sedis Apostolicae.
2The Court of Rome with poison strong infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores doth countries all annoy. Wherefore to knit up the sum of my reason, seeing it is manifest by the very evidence of the things themselves, that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practised in the Church of Rome: if the former reason of causes seem too weak, yet is it fully proved (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic church. How much more absurd were it to count her the Catholic Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholic, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church.
2The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy. Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason, séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues, that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministred, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duely practised in ye Church of Rome: if the former reason of causes séeme too weake, yet is it fully proued (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church. How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike, nor a sound member of the Catholike Church.
2As Frie• Mantuan telleth Pope Leo the tenth Pastor. lib. 4.
I have stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, 1then I had purposed: but I may run over the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as fthe lepers sore, because it is dangerous to them who dwell near it, must therefore gbe removed out of the camp of the faithful: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms & common weals, have severed themselves lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: hall whose commandments are righteousness, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandment in severing themselves from the Church of Rome. Therefore they severed themselves from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiastical societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that ihis elect and chosen should kseek him and lpraise him, that is, mlearn to know him, and nworship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not served and worshipped aright, thence doth he command his servants to depart. To depart, first, from that Church-assembly, where his right faith, and knowledge is not taught: the charge is given to Timothy. Whom S. Paul oadvertising of such as taught other doctrine, then he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, pdeclareth the qualities and fruits of ⟨p. 740⟩those 12wolves, and qbiddeth him depart from them: from such (saith Paul) 1depart thou: depart thou from their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himself declared by his example at Ephesus. Where rhe frequented the synagogue of the Jews for the space of three months. But swhen certain obstinate & disobedient persons spake evil of the way of God before the multitude, he 2departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that he severed, not himself only, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was evil spoken of, and men were not taught to know and believe in him aright. Now, that we must likewise depart from that Church, wherein God is not served and worshipped aright: it is written to the Corinthians.
I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, 1then I had purposed: but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as fthe lepers sore, because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it, must therefore gbe remoued out of the campe of the faithfull: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, Fraunce, Germanie, and other kingdomes & common weales, haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: hall whose commaundements are righteousnesse, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome. Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that ihis elect and chosen should kseeke him and lpraise him, that is, mlearne to know him, and nworship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not serued and worshipped aright, thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart. To depart, first, from that Church-assemblie, where his right faith, and knowlege is not taught: the charge is giuen to Timothee. Whom S. Paul oaduertising of such as taught other doctrine, then he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, pdeclareth the qualities and fruites of ⟨p. 740⟩those
Who being admonished tto flee from idolatry, and from all communion with idolatrous worship, are charged 2not to yoke them selves with idolaters in their assemblies & meetings. For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? light with darkness? xChrist with Belial? the faithful with the infidel? ythe temple of God with idols? zWherefore come out from among them, and separate your selves, saith the Lord. Separate your selves from them, saith the Lord: the Lord saith, not I. The Lord saith to the Jews, ago ye not up to Beth-aven: not Hosea, but the Lord saith. It is called bBeth-ell, but it is cBeth-aven: dthe *hie places of Aven are the sin of Israel. Therefore go ye not up to Beth-aven, saith the Lord. Thus we are expressly commanded by God to depart and separate our selves from those Churches, wherein the right ways, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are perverted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are perverted both. But they are both perverted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I have declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches have severed themselves from the Church of Rome most lawfully & justly. And therefore our eEnglish Papists and the fLovanists deal, shall I say, of ignorance, or of malice? but of whether soever, they deal very l•wd•ly: who to make us odious for severing our selves from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatics therein, do report of us that we rent our selves from the Catholic Church as the Donatists did. Truly, or falsely: let the faithful judge. Chiefly, sith it is manifest, that the gDonatists found not ⟨p. 741⟩any fault with Catholics, either for the service wherewith they worshipped God, or for the doctrine of God which they preached: but hwe have convicted the Romanists of impiety, both for their idolatrous profaning of his service, and for their ungodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame us, do themselves teach, that no man ought to join and communicate with that Church, whose service is idolatrous, whose doctrine is ungodly: in so much that the Lovanists ireprove (& that worthily) the Catholic Bishops of Africa, kyea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elijah, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and service of the Israelites when it was stained with idolatry:
Who being admonished tto flee from idolatrie, and from al communion with idolatrous worship, are charged 2not to yoke thē selues with idolaters in their assemblies & méetinges. For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse? light with darkenesse? xChrist with Belial? the faithful with the infidell? ythe temple of God with idols? zWherfore come out from among them, and separate your selues, sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them, sayth the Lord: the Lord sayth, not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes, ago ye not vp to Beth-auen: not Hosea, but the Lord sayth. It is called bBeth-el, but it is cBeth-auen: dthe *hie places of Auen are the sinne of Israel. Therefore go ye not vp to Beth-auen, sayth the Lord. Thus we are expresly commaunded by God to depart and separate our selues from those Churches, wherein the right wayes, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are peruerted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are peruerted both. But they are both peruerted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I haue declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches haue seuered themselues from the Church of Rome most lawfully & iustly. And therefore our eEnglish Papists and the fLouanists deale, shall I say, of ignoraunce, or of malice? but of whether soeuer, they deale very l•wd•ly: who to make vs odious for seuering our selues from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatikes therein, doe report of vs that we rent our selues from the Catholike Church as the Donatistes did. Truly, or falsly: let the faithful iudge. Chiefly, sith it is manifest, that the
*That is, the chapels of Bethel, in the which the Isra•elites did commit idolatry. •. King. 12.32.That is, the chappels of Bethel, in the which the Isra•elites did commit idolatrie. •. King. 12.32.
eBristow, Demand. 1. Motiu. •0. Stapleton. Princip. fid. doctrine. l. 4. c. 10▪ Sander. de vi••b. Monarc. eccles. prae•. ad Lect.
and lan English Papist condemneth (though unjustly) them who hear our sermons, because it is horrible sin to give patient hearing to blasphemies, such as (he saith) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctors themselves should sit in judgement upon us for trial of the schism and Donatism (so to term it) whereof they indict us: no doubt (unless their minds were overcast in like sort as were mthe eyes of Elymas) they would acquit us of it; and pronounce of Christians, as nPilate did of Christ, I find no fault in him. For what have we done in forsaking their synagogue, that may deserve the check of a severe Censor, much less the condemnation of an indifferent judge? Save in this (perhaps) that, oas mad Fimbria complained of Scaevola, we received not the whole weapon into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to ppreach the word of God. they preached it. To qreprove the peoples sins. they reproved them. To rsuffer afflictions even unto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to shear the pastors voice. they heard it. To tworship God & serve him only. they did it. To uprofess their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in France: xthey ought to obey rather God then men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandment of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through Gods most gracious goodness, and we beseech him it may for ever: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as ythe Priests, and Prophets, and people of the Jews did obey Josiah. Wherefore seeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & France, have severed themselves from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are ⟨p. 742⟩not seditious because they have done, but they were sacrilegious unless they had done so; nether have we dealt as schismatics in forsaking, but others deal as heretics in following the whore: whose hearts I would to God that might pierce into, which our Saviour saith to his, touching Babylon, zGo out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. And thus have I declared to you (reverend Sir) my judgement of the Conclusions which you proposed.
and lan English Papist condemneth (though vniustly) them who heare our sermons, because it is horrible sinne to giue patient hearing to blasphemies, such as (he sayth) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctours themselues should sit in iudgement vpon vs for triall of the schisme and Donatisme (so to terme it) whereof they indite vs: no doubt (vnlesse their mindes were ouercast in like sort as were mthe eyes of Elymas) they would acquite vs of it; and pronounce of Christians, as nPilate did of Christ, I finde no fault in him. For what haue we done in forsaking their synagogue, yt may deserue the check of a seuere Censour, much lesse the condemnation of an indifferent iudge? Saue in this (perhaps) that, oas mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola, we receaued not the whole weapō into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to ppreach the word of God. they preached it. To qreproue the peoples sinnes. they reproued thē. To rsuffer afflictions euē vnto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to sheare the pastours voice. they heard it. To tworship God & serue him only. they did it. To uprofesse their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in Fraunce: xthey ought to obey rather God then men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandement of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through Gods most gratious goodnesse, and we beséech him it may for euer: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as y
In opening whereof although I have been longer, partly being moved with the weightiness of the points, and partly presuming of the patience of the hearers, then in this place is usual: yet have I purposely omitted many things which adversaries may object, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it self more conveniently.
In opening whereof although I haue bene longer, partly being moued with the weightinesse of the pointes, and partly presuming of the pacience of the hearers, then in this place is vsuall: yet haue I purposely omitted many things which aduersaries may obiect, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it selfe more conueniently.
IT is now five years almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our University to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moved to make them common unto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reap some fruit of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were delivered to such as they were drawn for: the like have I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keeping them in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were justly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry friends, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them my self or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they took it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I have con descended unto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withal. The rather, because I have proved herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholic faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart avouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that trial, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had been handled to the confusion of all Popery, may for want of larger repast take this slenderer, ⟨p. 744⟩as better half a loaf (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as evil physicians to get themselves work, do praise unwholesome baggage above wholesome food, have discommended it. Chiefly, sith their dealing therein hath been such, that they have showed greater stomach than wisdom, as physicians of no value. For of four points that I find reproved by the former of them, in athe last edition of his doctrinal principles: one is, bthat I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholic, after a new sort, unskilfully, and fondly. The distinction thereof cI grounded on the scripture: dfond and enew (it may be) to others, not to us. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stood.
IT is now fiue yeares almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moued to make them cō mon vnto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for: the like haue I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keping thē in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were iustly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they tooke it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I haue cō descended vnto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withall. The rather, because I haue proued herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that triall, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie, may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer, ⟨p. 744⟩as better halfe a loafe (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as euill physicians to get themselues worke, doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode, haue discōmended it. Chiefly, sith their dealing therein hath bene such, that they haue shewed greater stomake thē wisedome, as physicians of no value. For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them, in athe last editiō of his doctrinall principles: one is, bthat I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike, after a new sort, vnskilfully, and fondly. The distinction therof cI grounded on the scripture: dfond and enew (it may be) to others, not to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode.
but the lawes of Iustinian, not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no: looke you to that. For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled, and conuerteth soules. But these are
too too abominable, and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church: nay it were not seemely for the common place, where ciuill matters are handled.
Paul) the God of their fathers after that way, (which Papistes call heresie,) beleuing all things which are writen in the law and the Prophets. Whom he with most vilanous cruelty and treachery, as if they had béen shéepe appointed to the slaughter,
he hath deliuered them to Pilate to be crucified: and when the streames of water did flow with blood at Paris, old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex, or age, or state,
he sang a song of ioy for the French mariage, and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outragious act of more then Scythian barbarousnes.
As the same Pope witnesseth in the same place. And the Braui (in Italie) are famous with their sanctuaries. Andr. Masius in Iosuam cap. 20.
gLege Julia, de adulterijs: and before, by the law of Romulus.Lege Iulia, de adulterijs: and before, by the law of Romulus.
hConcil. Trid. Sess. 24. can. 12. Dist. 83. c. Presbyter. 26. q. 7. c. tempora. 33. q. 2. c. hoc ipsum. 27. q. 1. c. Siquis episcopus. in glossa. c. At s• clerici. deiudicijs.
iConcil. delectorum Card. Surius in commentar. rer. gestar. de ••for•at. Pij. qui••.
kc. quia circa. de bigamis.
2With these words (in the gloss upon that text of the Canon law:) Nota mirabile, quod pl•s habet hic luxuria, quám castitas.With these words (in the glose vpon that text of the Canon law:) Nota mirabile, quod pl•s habet hic luxuria, quám castitas.
lc. ad Apostolicae. in sexto, touching the Emperor: of the rest, the stories of several countries show it.c. ad Apostolicae. in sexto, touching the Emperour: of the rest, the stories of seuerall countries shew it.
qThe stories of the Church of England, France, Italy, and the Spanish inquisition.The stories of the Church of England, Fraunce, Italie, and the Spanish inquisition.
tComment. de stat. relig. & re•p. in Gallia, lib. 10.
he who hath the benefice, néede not attend the office, the steward not prouide meate for Gods houshold, the seruant and minister not doo the worke of God, the angel and messenger not shew the wil of God, the shepheard and pastour not féede the flock committed to him; that
subiects may be discharged of their oth and fealtie, & licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince, yea, take armes against him, yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord; that
promise may be broken with God and with men; that abominations most horrible may be committed; that all things diuine and humane may be peruerted; right and wrong, heauen and earth, lawfull and vnlawfull, may be confounded together. And can it be douted but that this so monstrous, so pestilent, so misshapen foulnesse and corruption of lawes and of discipline, was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome, not to set forward the saluation of the Church, but to fill his gréedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion? Doo not his own
Courtiers allow of their iudgement who say that the pompe of the church would be abated, which he sought to increase with anoyance of religion?
••
kDistinct. 70. c. sanctorum. c. de multa. de praebendis.
lc. relatum. de clericis non resident. c. licet canon. de ele••. in sexto.
mc. ad Apostolicae. in sexto. De sentent. & re jud. Bulla Pij quinti contr. Reign. Angl.c. ad Apostolicae. in sexto. De sentent. & re iud. Bulla Pij quinti contr. Regin. Angl.
nConc. Constantien. Session. 19. c. Non obstantibus s•luis conductibus. Pope Martin the fifth: epist. ad Regem Lituan. Cochlaeus histor. Hussi•ar. lib. 5.
oBaptist. Man• tuan. de calamit. tempor. l▪ 3.
*C•lum est venale Deusque.
pPlatina de vit. Pont. in Paulo secundo. A•n. Siluius Cardin. epist. de moribus Germaniae.
the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested, till they had gotten that act repealed. The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent: and truely many things were decréed
depart thou: depart thou frō their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus. Where
departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that hée seuered, not himselfe onely, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was euill spoken of, and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright. Now, that we must likewise depart from that Church, wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright: it is writen to the Corinthians.
wée haue conuicted ye Romanists of impietie, both for their idolatrous prophaning of his seruice, and for their vngodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame vs, doe themselues teach, that no man ought to ioyne and communicate with that Church, whose seruice is idolatrous, whose doctrine is vngodly: in so much that the Louanists
yea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elias, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and seruice of the Israelites when it was stayned with idola•trie:
Bristow, Demand. 1. Motiu. •0. Stapleton. Princip. fid. doctrin. l. 4. c. 10▪ Sander. de vi••b. Monarc. eccles. prae•. ad Lect.
fAnnot. in tom. •. Augustin. con •tra Dona•istas.Annot. in tom. •. Augustin. cō •tra Dona•istas.
gAs it appeareth by S. Au••in, […] his treatises against […] Donatists.As it appee•eth by S. Au••in, 〈…〉 his •reatises against 〈…〉 Donatists.
hAs the Apologies and Confessions of the reformed Churches show.As the Apologies and Cō fessions of the reformed Churches shew.
iAnnot. in August. Brevi•. collat. cum Donatist collat. di•i. 3. cap 9.Annot. in August. Breui•. collat. cum Donatist collat. di•i. 3. cap 9.
kAnnot. in August. post col••tion▪ ad Donatist. c. 2•.
the Priests, and Prophets, and people of the Iewes did obey Iosias. Wherefore séeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & Fraunce, haue seuered themselues from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are
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not seditious because they haue done, but they were sacrilegious vnlesse they had done so; nether haue we dealt as schismatikes in forsaking, but others deale as heretikes in following the whoore: whose hearts I would to God that might pearce into, which our Sauiour sayth to his, touching Babylon,
Go out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sinnes, and that ye receue not of her plagues. And thus haue I declared to you (reuerend Syr) my iudgemēt of the Conclusions which you proposed.
