The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not observed yet; another, that although they should be observed, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet do they little good, because the Pope is not bound to laws him self, and he dispenseth with whom he list: so that medicines heal not the wounds, but make them worse, as long as the Pope may repeal, alter, pervert, and break through the decrees of the Council, with his dispensations. And, out of all doubt, that detestable clause fannexed to decrees of reformation in the Council, 1provided always that the Popes authority be safe, and no way prejudiced: doth show the Roman Church to be not only sick, but also past hope of recovering her health. For ⟨p. 739⟩as in mens bodies the greater the spleen waxeth, the lesser wax the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Popes authority is, the less safe will all parts of the Church be.
one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not obserued yet; another, that although they should be obserued, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet doo they litle good, because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe, and he dispenseth with whom he list: so that medicines heale not the wounds, but make them woorse, as long as the Pope may repeale, alter, peruert, and breake through the decrees of the Councell, with his dispensations. And, out of all dout, that detestable clause fannexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell, 1prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe, and no way preiudiced: dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick, but also past hope of recouering her health. For ⟨p. 739⟩as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth, ye lesser waxe the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Popes autoritie is, the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be.
fConcil. Trid. de reform. Sess. 9. in proaem. & Sess. 25. de reform. cap. ult.Concil. Trid. de reform. Sess. 9. in proaem. & Sess. 25. de reform. cap. vlt.
1Salua semper in omnibus autoritate sedis Apostolicae.
2The Court of Rome with poison strong infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores doth countries all annoy. Wherefore to knit up the sum of my reason, seeing it is manifest by the very evidence of the things themselves, that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practised in the Church of Rome: if the former reason of causes seem too weak, yet is it fully proved (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic church. How much more absurd were it to count her the Catholic Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholic, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church.
2The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy. Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason, séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues, that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministred, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duely practised in ye Church of Rome: if the former reason of causes séeme too weake, yet is it fully proued (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church. How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike, nor a sound member of the Catholike Church.
2As Frie• Mantuan telleth Pope Leo the tenth Pastor. lib. 4.
I have stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, 1then I had purposed: but I may run over the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as fthe lepers sore, because it is dangerous to them who dwell near it, must therefore gbe removed out of the camp of the faithful: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms & common weals, have severed themselves lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: hall whose commandments are righteousness, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandment in severing themselves from the Church of Rome. Therefore they severed themselves from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiastical societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that ihis elect and chosen should kseek him and lpraise him, that is, mlearn to know him, and nworship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not served and worshipped aright, thence doth he command his servants to depart. To depart, first, from that Church-assembly, where his right faith, and knowledge is not taught: the charge is given to Timothy. Whom S. Paul oadvertising of such as taught other doctrine, then he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, pdeclareth the qualities and fruits of ⟨p. 740⟩those 12wolves, and qbiddeth him depart from them: from such (saith Paul) 1depart thou: depart thou from their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himself declared by his example at Ephesus. Where rhe frequented the synagogue of the Jews for the space of three months. But swhen certain obstinate & disobedient persons spake evil of the way of God before the multitude, he 2departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that he severed, not himself only, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was evil spoken of, and men were not taught to know and believe in him aright. Now, that we must likewise depart from that Church, wherein God is not served and worshipped aright: it is written to the Corinthians.
I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, 1then I had purposed: but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as fthe lepers sore, because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it, must therefore gbe remoued out of the campe of the faithfull: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, Fraunce, Germanie, and other kingdomes & common weales, haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: hall whose commaundements are righteousnesse, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome. Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that ihis elect and chosen should kseeke him and lpraise him, that is, mlearne to know him, and nworship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not serued and worshipped aright, thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart. To depart, first, from that Church-assemblie, where his right faith, and knowlege is not taught: the charge is giuen to Timothee. Whom S. Paul oaduertising of such as taught other doctrine, then he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, pdeclareth the qualities and fruites of ⟨p. 740⟩those
Who being admonished tto flee from idolatry, and from all communion with idolatrous worship, are charged 2not to yoke them selves with idolaters in their assemblies & meetings. For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? light with darkness? xChrist with Belial? the faithful with the infidel? ythe temple of God with idols? zWherefore come out from among them, and separate your selves, saith the Lord. Separate your selves from them, saith the Lord: the Lord saith, not I. The Lord saith to the Jews, ago ye not up to Beth-aven: not Hosea, but the Lord saith. It is called bBeth-ell, but it is cBeth-aven: dthe *hie places of Aven are the sin of Israel. Therefore go ye not up to Beth-aven, saith the Lord. Thus we are expressly commanded by God to depart and separate our selves from those Churches, wherein the right ways, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are perverted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are perverted both. But they are both perverted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I have declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches have severed themselves from the Church of Rome most lawfully & justly. And therefore our eEnglish Papists and the fLovanists deal, shall I say, of ignorance, or of malice? but of whether soever, they deal very l•wd•ly: who to make us odious for severing our selves from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatics therein, do report of us that we rent our selves from the Catholic Church as the Donatists did. Truly, or falsely: let the faithful judge. Chiefly, sith it is manifest, that the gDonatists found not ⟨p. 741⟩any fault with Catholics, either for the service wherewith they worshipped God, or for the doctrine of God which they preached: but hwe have convicted the Romanists of impiety, both for their idolatrous profaning of his service, and for their ungodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame us, do themselves teach, that no man ought to join and communicate with that Church, whose service is idolatrous, whose doctrine is ungodly: in so much that the Lovanists ireprove (& that worthily) the Catholic Bishops of Africa, kyea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elijah, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and service of the Israelites when it was stained with idolatry:
Who being admonished tto flee from idolatrie, and from al communion with idolatrous worship, are charged 2not to yoke thē selues with idolaters in their assemblies & méetinges. For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse? light with darkenesse? xChrist with Belial? the faithful with the infidell? ythe temple of God with idols? zWherfore come out from among them, and separate your selues, sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them, sayth the Lord: the Lord sayth, not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes, ago ye not vp to Beth-auen: not Hosea, but the Lord sayth. It is called bBeth-el, but it is cBeth-auen: dthe *hie places of Auen are the sinne of Israel. Therefore go ye not vp to Beth-auen, sayth the Lord. Thus we are expresly commaunded by God to depart and separate our selues from those Churches, wherein the right wayes, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are peruerted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are peruerted both. But they are both peruerted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I haue declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches haue seuered themselues from the Church of Rome most lawfully & iustly. And therefore our eEnglish Papists and the fLouanists deale, shall I say, of ignoraunce, or of malice? but of whether soeuer, they deale very l•wd•ly: who to make vs odious for seuering our selues from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatikes therein, doe report of vs that we rent our selues from the Catholike Church as the Donatistes did. Truly, or falsly: let the faithful iudge. Chiefly, sith it is manifest, that the
*That is, the chapels of Bethel, in the which the Isra•elites did commit idolatry. •. King. 12.32.That is, the chappels of Bethel, in the which the Isra•elites did commit idolatrie. •. King. 12.32.
eBristow, Demand. 1. Motiu. •0. Stapleton. Princip. fid. doctrine. l. 4. c. 10▪ Sander. de vi••b. Monarc. eccles. prae•. ad Lect.
and lan English Papist condemneth (though unjustly) them who hear our sermons, because it is horrible sin to give patient hearing to blasphemies, such as (he saith) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctors themselves should sit in judgement upon us for trial of the schism and Donatism (so to term it) whereof they indict us: no doubt (unless their minds were overcast in like sort as were mthe eyes of Elymas) they would acquit us of it; and pronounce of Christians, as nPilate did of Christ, I find no fault in him. For what have we done in forsaking their synagogue, that may deserve the check of a severe Censor, much less the condemnation of an indifferent judge? Save in this (perhaps) that, oas mad Fimbria complained of Scaevola, we received not the whole weapon into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to ppreach the word of God. they preached it. To qreprove the peoples sins. they reproved them. To rsuffer afflictions even unto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to shear the pastors voice. they heard it. To tworship God & serve him only. they did it. To uprofess their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in France: xthey ought to obey rather God then men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandment of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through Gods most gracious goodness, and we beseech him it may for ever: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as ythe Priests, and Prophets, and people of the Jews did obey Josiah. Wherefore seeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & France, have severed themselves from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are ⟨p. 742⟩not seditious because they have done, but they were sacrilegious unless they had done so; nether have we dealt as schismatics in forsaking, but others deal as heretics in following the whore: whose hearts I would to God that might pierce into, which our Saviour saith to his, touching Babylon, zGo out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. And thus have I declared to you (reverend Sir) my judgement of the Conclusions which you proposed.
and lan English Papist condemneth (though vniustly) them who heare our sermons, because it is horrible sinne to giue patient hearing to blasphemies, such as (he sayth) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctours themselues should sit in iudgement vpon vs for triall of the schisme and Donatisme (so to terme it) whereof they indite vs: no doubt (vnlesse their mindes were ouercast in like sort as were mthe eyes of Elymas) they would acquite vs of it; and pronounce of Christians, as nPilate did of Christ, I finde no fault in him. For what haue we done in forsaking their synagogue, yt may deserue the check of a seuere Censour, much lesse the condemnation of an indifferent iudge? Saue in this (perhaps) that, oas mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola, we receaued not the whole weapō into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to ppreach the word of God. they preached it. To qreproue the peoples sinnes. they reproued thē. To rsuffer afflictions euē vnto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to sheare the pastours voice. they heard it. To tworship God & serue him only. they did it. To uprofesse their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in Fraunce: xthey ought to obey rather God then men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandement of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through Gods most gratious goodnesse, and we beséech him it may for euer: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as y
In opening whereof although I have been longer, partly being moved with the weightiness of the points, and partly presuming of the patience of the hearers, then in this place is usual: yet have I purposely omitted many things which adversaries may object, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it self more conveniently.
In opening whereof although I haue bene longer, partly being moued with the weightinesse of the pointes, and partly presuming of the pacience of the hearers, then in this place is vsuall: yet haue I purposely omitted many things which aduersaries may obiect, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it selfe more conueniently.
IT is now five years almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our University to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moved to make them common unto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reap some fruit of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were delivered to such as they were drawn for: the like have I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keeping them in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were justly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry friends, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them my self or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they took it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I have con descended unto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withal. The rather, because I have proved herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholic faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart avouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that trial, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had been handled to the confusion of all Popery, may for want of larger repast take this slenderer, ⟨p. 744⟩as better half a loaf (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as evil physicians to get themselves work, do praise unwholesome baggage above wholesome food, have discommended it. Chiefly, sith their dealing therein hath been such, that they have showed greater stomach than wisdom, as physicians of no value. For of four points that I find reproved by the former of them, in athe last edition of his doctrinal principles: one is, bthat I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholic, after a new sort, unskilfully, and fondly. The distinction thereof cI grounded on the scripture: dfond and enew (it may be) to others, not to us. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stood.
IT is now fiue yeares almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our Vniuersitie to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moued to make them cō mon vnto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reape some fruite of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were deliuered to such as they were drawen for: the like haue I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keping thē in Latin at home as it were, that, if any thing were iustly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry frendes, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them my selfe or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they tooke it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart: I haue cō descended vnto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withall. The rather, because I haue proued herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholike faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart auouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that triall, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had bene handled to the confusion of all Poperie, may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer, ⟨p. 744⟩as better halfe a loafe (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as euill physicians to get themselues worke, doo praise vnholesome baggage aboue holesome foode, haue discōmended it. Chiefly, sith their dealing therein hath bene such, that they haue shewed greater stomake thē wisedome, as physicians of no value. For of foure pointes that I find reproued by the former of them, in athe last editiō of his doctrinall principles: one is, bthat I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholike, after a new sort, vnskilfully, and fondly. The distinction therof cI grounded on the scripture: dfond and enew (it may be) to others, not to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode.
Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it: I will bear with him; as in the rest of his taunts also. Losers must have their words. An other point fhe carpeth at, is mine exposition of holy catholic church. Which I having proved by the Papists themselves, that it must needs signify the company of the chosen alone, not mixed with wicked ones, because (by their gcatechism) it is the body of Christ, & hall the body of Christ is quickened by his spirit, which the wicked are not: he ireplieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickened by his spirit, because some parts of it are so, not all the body. An answer somewhat strange: considering that the scripture, which I had alleged, saith that *all the body of Christ is quickened so. As for that khe noteth of the word [Catholic,] that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sort: lPhilip Mornay's excellent gifts, and fruitful labours, I reverence and love. And both of us having aimed at the trueth: whether hath come nearer it, mlet the Prophets judge. But if, among Prophets in the church of ⟨p. 745⟩Christ, nsomewhat be revealed to one, that is not to an other: this justifieth not them, owho say they are Jews, & are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion; that the holy Catholic church which we believe is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. For touching that he addeth that he hath disproved it, by showing that the church is distinguished from heretical assemblies by the name of Catholic: he hath disproved it as soundly thereby, as if he should say, that the pCatholic epistles in the new Testament, were not so called, as general, & written to no certain persons, because that other writings are named catholic also to distinguish them from heretical. The third point he taketh upon him to confute, is an argument that I made to prove my third Conclusion. qAll the words of scripture be the words of trueth: some words of the Church be the words of error. But he that telleth the trueth always, is more to be credited, than he that lieth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more than is the Church.
Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it: I will beare with him; as in the rest of his tauntes also. Loosers must haue their wordes. An other point fhe carpeth at, is mine exposition of holy catholike church. Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues, that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone, not mixt with wicked ones, because (by their gcatechisme) it is the body of Christ, & hall the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit, which the wicked are not: he ireplieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite, because some partes of it are so, not all the body. An aunswere somewhat straunge: considering that the scripture, which I had alleaged, saith that *al the body of Christ is quickned so. As for that khe noteth of the word [Catholike,] that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte: lPhilip Mornayes excellent giftes, and fruitfull labors, I reuerence and loue. And both of vs hauing aymed at the trueth: whether hath come neerer it, mlet the Prophets iudge. But if, among Prophets in the church of ⟨p. 745⟩Christ, nsomewhat be reueiled to one, that is not to an other: this iustifieth not them, owho say they are Iewes, & are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion; that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen. For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it, by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike: he hath disproued it as soundly therby, as if he should say, that the
fIn the fourth Conclusion.
gCatechism. Council. Trident. in exposit. Symboli.
And to this argument (saith he) I answer briefly, that no words of the Church are the words of error, that is, that no erroneous thing is ever taught, defined, or approved, by the Church in her Bishops & Pastors teaching uniformly; in the decrees of Councils, chiefly of general Councils; in that which the Fathers teach with one consent; in her head, the Pope, defining, & delivering any thing publicly; & finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth: though severally some Bishops may privately err in teaching; and one or moe Fathers may write some untrue thing, or be in some error; and somewhat even in Councils, without the decree it self, may be said or reasoned inconveniently; and (to conclude) the Pope may be overseen privately in somewhat. But this must be certes imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church ⟨image 381⟩her self. Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an answer unto my argument: then can I tell him a very brief way to answer my Conclusions all with one word. How? By granting them all to be true. For though it were so, that nether Bishops teaching uniformly might err, nor Fathers consenting, nor Councils in decrees, nor the Pope in public and definitive sentence, which I both 1there, & selse where have showed to be otherwise, but if it were so: yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers, and Councils, and the Pope himself may err (as he confesseth) in this or that point, and this or that manner; he granteth that which I said, that some words of the Church are the words of error. But those words must certes (saith he) be imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church her self. Now certes M Doctor is a merry man: who can shift an argument off with such a jest. As though the Church her self consisted not of men: and therefore must needs offend so through frailty, the men offending so. The fourth and last point wherewith the findeth fault, is, that amongst 4the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic Church, I bring this, that, touching expounding of the Scripture, she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof, which are against the sense that her self holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one.
And to this argumēt (saith he) I answere briefly, that no words of the Church are the words of error, that is, that no erroneus thing is euer taught, defined, or approued, by the Church in her Bishops & Pastors teaching vniformly; in the decrees of Councels, chiefly of generall Councels; in that which the Fathers teach with one consent; in her head, the Pope, defining, & deliuering any thing publikely; & finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth: though •euerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching; and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing, or be in some er•or; and somewhat euen in Coūcels, without the decree it self, may be said or reasoned inconueniently; and (to conclude) the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat. But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men, not to the Church ⟨image 381⟩her selfe. Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vnto my argument: then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word. How? By graunting them all to be true. For though it were so, that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre, nor Fathers consenting, nor Councels in decrees, nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence, which I both 1there, & selse where haue shewed to be otherwise, but if it were so: yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers, and Councels, and the Pope himselfe may erre (as he confesseth) in this or that point, and this or that maner; he graunteth that which I said, that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour. But those wordes must certes (saith he) be imputed to the frailtie of men, not to the Church her selfe. Now certes M Doctor is a mery mā: who can shift an argument off with such a iest. As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men: and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie, the men offending so. The fourth and last point wherewith the findeth fault, is, that amongst 4the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church, I bring this, that, touching expounding of the Scripture, she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof, which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth, or against the Fathers cōsenting all in one.
1In the third Conclusion.In the thirde Co•cl•sion.
sIn the Conference. Chapt. 2. Divis 2. & Chapt 7. Di•is. •. & 7.In the Confe•ence. Chapt. 2. Diuis 2. & Chapt 7. Di•is. •. & 7.
Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers, yea, that I affirm that it is a mark and token of a false Church to admit the joint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture: he doth me great wrong. For, though by following too much brevity in Latin, I fell into obscurity, and said not so plainly that which I would, and should, as in the English now I have: yet that which I said, doth clear me of his slander, as D. 1Fulke hath showed; whom I can better thank for his defending of me, then deserve ⟨p. 747⟩the praise that he hath given me therein. Nay, I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome, that the fault which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their judgement in that point. For I declared straight in the words ensuing, that first she authorizeth thereby her own practise, as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture, though contrary to it self: next, she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolmen, & will have them taken for waters of life: lastly, when some Fathers gainsay her, she rejecteth them, because they all consent not and admitteth them who do make for her, as having hit the mark. Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one. The former two import that I condemn the frenzy of the Church of Rome, maintaining her Dunses and deeds against the Fathers. But ythe serpents assembled in the Council of Trent, have set down that I spake of (touching the expounding of the scripture) so subtly: that a simple man would think they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture only, as the Fathers give all with one consent. Whereas in very trueth they do nothing less: they disallow them rather. For whether by *the Fathers consenting all in one, they mean the Fathers all, simply, none excepted; that consent is a Phoenix, and never will be found: or whether they mean a good number of them, as zM. Hart expoundeth it▪ they dissent from senses agreed on by that number. For example, the scripture saith, aThere shall be one flock, one Pastor. The Fathers, bAustin, cChrysostom, dCyril, eJerome, & fGregory, expound this of Christ. The church of Romes gmouth expoundeth it of the Pope.
Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers, yea, that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture: he dooth me great wrong. For, though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin, I fell into obscuritie, and said not so plainly that which I would, and should, as in the English now I haue: yet that which I said, dooth cleere me of his sclaunder, as D. 1Fulke hath shewed; whom I can better thanke for his defending of me, then deserue ⟨p. 747⟩the praise that he hath geuen me therein. Nay, I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome, that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemēt in that point. For I declared straight in the words ensuing, that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise, as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture, though contrarie to it selfe: next, she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen, & wil haue thē taken for waters of life: lastly, when some Fathers gainsay her, she reiecteth them, because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her, as hauing hit the mark. Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one. The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome, mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers. But ythe serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent, haue set downe that I spake of (touching the expounding of the scripture) so suttilly: that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onely, as the Fathers geue all with one consent. Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse: they disallow them rather. For whether by *the Fathers consenting all in one, they meane the Fathers all, simply, none excepted; that consent is a Phoenix, and neuer will be found: or whether they meane a good number of them, as zM. Hart expoundeth it▪ they dissent frō senses agreed on by that number. For example, the scripture saith, aThere shalbe one flock, one Pastour. The Fathers, b
1De success. ecclesiast. resp. ad Thom. Staplet. cap. 9.
The Council then of Trent condemning all senses and meanings of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one: doth it ⟨p. 748⟩not condemn this sense of the scripture given by the Fathers, because it is against the sense of their Church? Sure it bindeth not the Papists to maintain it. Or else D. hStapleton (I trust) should be censured, for placing the Pope in the one Pastors seat. Wherefore if they, who hold not the senses that the Fathers give of the scriptures, be the false Church, as ihe teacheth us: the false Church and the Church of Rome may claim kindred. And thus much of the Doctor.
The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one: doth it ⟨p. 748⟩not condemne this sense of the scripture geuē by the Fathers, because it is against the sense of their Church? Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it. Or els D. hStapleton (I trust) should be censured, for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate. Wherefore if they, who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures, be the false Church, as ihe teacheth vs: the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred. And thus much of the Doctor.
The kLicentiate followeth him in the same steppes, reproving a speech of mine, touching Cyprian. Whose praise of the Romans, that unfaithfulness cannot have access to them, being stretched by Sanders to prove that the Church of Rome cannot err: lI, having showed the contrary by scripture, did add, What? and was Cyprian of an other mind? Pardon me ô Cyprian: I would believe thee gladly, but that believing thee I should not believe the word of God. Hereon, M. Martin, to advantage his cause, first abuseth mCyprian, saying, that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith. Which he affirmeth not. But whereas the Novatian heretics at Carthage had made themselves there a Bishop in schism, and to get him credit with the Church of Rome had written thither falsely, that he was allowed by five & twē tie Bishops: Cyprian, to meet with their falsehood and treachery, saith that it could not find credit with the Romans, who being faithful men would not give ear to faithless liars. Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deed be deceived by false reports of wicked imps; (for even there he noteth they might be 4a while, as he did try both then and 5after:) but to stir them up to beware of heretics, by praising them as wary. Wherefore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith: as M. Martin threapeth on him. Yet because he might be supposed ⟨p. 749⟩to have thought it, at least by a consequent; for if they could not err *in that, much less in faith: therefore I, contenting my self with a peremptory exception against it, said, that if he thought it, he must pardon me for not believing him, the word of God gainsaying it. And this doth M. Martin reprove, both for that whereupon I spake it, and for my kind of speech. That, whereupon I spake it, is (he saith) that every youth among us, upon confidence of his spirit, will control not only one but all the Fathers consenting together, if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth. In which words, by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together, he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him. For I touched the credit of no more of them, then nthe Papists grant themselves may be touched. Nor controlled I ought upon confidence of my spirit, but of othe spirit of God: because it was against, not that which I imagined, but knew to be the truth.
The kLicentiate foloweth him in the same steppes, reprouing a speech of mine, touching Cyprian. Whose praise of the Romans, that vnfaithfulnesse cannot haue accesse to thē, being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre: lI, hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture, did adde, What? and was Cyprian of an other minde? Pardon me ô Cyprian: I would beleeue thee gladly, but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God. Hereon, M. Martin, to aduauntage his cause, first abuseth mCyprian, saying, that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith. Which he affirmeth not. But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme, and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly, that he was allowed by fiue & twē tie Bishops: Cyprian, to meete with their falshood and treacherie, saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans, who being faithfull men would not giue eare to faithlesse lyers. Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes; (for euen there he noteth they might be 4a while, as hee did trie both then and 5after:) but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes, by praising them as wary. Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith: as M. Martin threapeth on him. Yet because he might be supposed ⟨p. 749⟩to haue thought it, at least by a consequent; for if they could not erre *in that, much lesse in faith: therefore I, contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it, sayd, that if he thought it, he must pardon me for not beleeuing him, the word of God gainsaying it. And this doth M. Martin reproue, both for that wherevpon I spake it, and for my kind of speeche. That, wherevpon I spake it, is (he sayth) that euery youth among vs, vpon confidence of his spirit, will controll not onely one but all the Fathers consenting together, if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth. In which wordes, by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together, he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him. For I touched the credite of no more of them, then
kGreg. Martin. in the preface of his discovery.Greg. Martin. in the preface of his discouery.
*Wherein all men grant that the Pope may •rie: even they who stay him most from erring in faith. A•n. Sil•ius Card. in ep. de mo•ibus Ger•. •urreciemata, Sanders, •ellarmin, Torrensis, and the whole nation of the Jesuits.Wherein all men graunt that the Pope may •rie: euen they who stay him most from erring in faith. A•n. Sil•ius Card. in ep. de mo•ibus Ger•. •urreciemata, Sanders, •ellarmin, Torrensis, and the whole nation of the Iesuites.
nJo. Picus Mirand. in Apol. Alfonsus a Castr. aduer. haer. l. 1. c. 7. Canus locor. Theolog. l. 7. c. 3. Andrad. defe ns. •id. T••d. l. 2. Sixtus Sen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. & 6. & cae• passim.Io. Picus Mirand. in Apol. Alfonsus a Castr. aduer. haer. l. 1. c. 7. Canus locor. Theolog. l. 7. c. 3. Andrad. defe ns. •id. Td. l. 2. Sixtus Sen. biblioth. sanct. lib. 5. & 6. & cae passim.
My kind of speech he noteth, for being very fine and figurative, as I thought. As I thought? did M. Martin see my hart? If not: he might have kept that thought within himself. For in truth, (to open it, because he presseth me so far,) I thought in that figure 3[Pardon me ô Cyprian] to imitate a like kind of speech in S. Austin, 4[Pardon me ô Paul.] What M. Martin thought, when hereupon he matched me with vain & foolish youths: himself hath declared. But it would better have beseemed his age, to have acknowledged rather the truth which I proved, then have reproved my kind of speech. For although I be a vain and foolish youth, who spake so of Cyprian: yet S. Paul was not a vain and foolish Apostle, whose doctrine I maintained in it. These are (good Christian reader) the faults of my Conclusions: all, that are noted by Stapleton & Martin, as far as I know. If they or any other have touched ⟨p. 750⟩ought else, which I have not lighted on: I will not be ashamed (upon notice of it) to bring it forth my self, and answer it in judgement. For I have been so careful of true and faithful dealing, as well in the Conclusions, as in the Conference with M. Hart, God is my record: that, 3if mine adversaries should write a book against me, I would bear it upon my shoulder, & bind it as a crown unto me. The bolder I am to commend them both to thy upright judgement: beseeching the Father of lights, for his mercies sake in Jesus Christ, to bless thee with the grace of his holy spirit, that thou mayest grow in knowledge, in faith, in hope, in love, and enjoy the blessings prepared for the chosen, who seek and serve him.
My kind of speeche he noteth, for being very fine and figuratiue, as I thought. As I thought? did M. Martin see my hart? If not: hee might haue kept that thought within himselfe. For in truth, (to open it, because he presseth me so farre,) I thought in that figure 3[Paerdon me ô Cyprian] to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin, 4[Pardon me ô Paule.] What M. Martin thought, whē herevpon he matched me with vaine & foolish youths: himselfe hath declared. But it would better haue beseemed his age, to haue acknowledged rather the truth which I proued, then haue reproued my kind of speech. For although I be a vaine and foolish youth, who spake so of Cyprian: yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle, whose doctrin I maintayned in it. These are (good Christian reader) the faultes of my Conclusions: al, that are noted by Stapleton & Martin, as farre as I know. If they or any other haue touched ⟨p. 750⟩ought else, which I haue not lighted on: I will not be ashamed (vpō notice of it) to bring it forth my selfe, and answere it in iudgement. For I haue bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing, as well in the Conclusions, as in the Conference with M. Hart, God is my record: that, 3if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me, I would beare it vpō my shoulder, & bind it as a crowne vnto me. The bolder I am to cōmend them both to thy vpright iudgement: beseeching the Father of lights, for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ, to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit, that thou maist grow in knowledge, in faith, in hope, in loue, and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen, who seeke and serue him.
3Da veniam Cyprian.Da veniam Cypriane.
4Da veniam Apostole. Aug. libr. homiliar. quinquagint. homil. 14.
depart thou: depart thou frō their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus. Where
departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that hée seuered, not himselfe onely, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was euill spoken of, and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright. Now, that we must likewise depart from that Church, wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright: it is writen to the Corinthians.
wée haue conuicted ye Romanists of impietie, both for their idolatrous prophaning of his seruice, and for their vngodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame vs, doe themselues teach, that no man ought to ioyne and communicate with that Church, whose seruice is idolatrous, whose doctrine is vngodly: in so much that the Louanists
yea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elias, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and seruice of the Israelites when it was stayned with idola•trie:
Bristow, Demand. 1. Motiu. •0. Stapleton. Princip. fid. doctrin. l. 4. c. 10▪ Sander. de vi••b. Monarc. eccles. prae•. ad Lect.
fAnnot. in tom. •. Augustin. con •tra Dona•istas.Annot. in tom. •. Augustin. cō •tra Dona•istas.
gAs it appeareth by S. Au••in, […] his treatises against […] Donatists.As it appee•eth by S. Au••in, 〈…〉 his •reatises against 〈…〉 Donatists.
hAs the Apologies and Confessions of the reformed Churches show.As the Apologies and Cō fessions of the reformed Churches shew.
iAnnot. in August. Brevi•. collat. cum Donatist collat. di•i. 3. cap 9.Annot. in August. Breui•. collat. cum Donatist collat. di•i. 3. cap 9.
kAnnot. in August. post col••tion▪ ad Donatist. c. 2•.
the Priests, and Prophets, and people of the Iewes did obey Iosias. Wherefore séeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & Fraunce, haue seuered themselues from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are
⟨p. 742⟩
not seditious because they haue done, but they were sacrilegious vnlesse they had done so; nether haue we dealt as schismatikes in forsaking, but others deale as heretikes in following the whoore: whose hearts I would to God that might pearce into, which our Sauiour sayth to his, touching Babylon,
Go out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sinnes, and that ye receue not of her plagues. And thus haue I declared to you (reuerend Syr) my iudgemēt of the Conclusions which you proposed.
Catholike epistles in the new Testament, were not so called, as generall, & writen to no certaine persons, because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall. The third point he taketh vpon him to confute, is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion.
All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth: some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour. But he that telleth the trueth alwayes, is more to be credited, thē he that lyeth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more thē is the Church.
