The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
When sDaniel requested the Master of the Eunuchs that he and his fellows might not be forced to eat the meat and drink the wine of the Kings provision, least that (it being often 2such, or uused so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they should be 4defiled thereby, and offend: xthe Master said unto him, I fear my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meat & your drink: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, then the other children that are of your sort, & so should you endanger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his fellows: and savouring of the instruction taught them in Jerusalem, ythat they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the Eunuchs had learned an other lesson, ⟨p. 23⟩that he must do in all things, as the King commanded. Which although he would have taught his scholars also, according to the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans: yet he showed (by mentioning his fear of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. Whereby it came to pass, that anz other officer, whom he set over them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the Jesuits, & the rest, whom Nebuchadnezzar of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, used you no worse then Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say unto you, We fear our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your conscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet should not your souls be forced to that, & other overseers might give you better food. But other overseers & they are so linked all in one devotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruit, they nip it off straight, and teach you to think and speak in all respects according to the arts and tongue of the Romans. Whereof they have given experience & proof in many learned men & writers of your side. But three fresh
When sDaniel requested the Master of the Eunuches that he and his felowes might not bee forced to eate the meate and drinke the wine of the Kings prouision, least that (it being often 2such, or uvsed so, as was not allowed by the law of God) they shuld be 4defiled therby, and offend: xthe Master said vnto him, I feare my Lord the king, who hath appointed your meate & your drinke: for why should he see your faces in worse liking, then the other children that are of your sort, & so shuld you indaunger my head to the King? A godly affection in Daniel, and his felowes: and sauoring of the instruction taught them in Ierusalem, ythat they should be holy, because the Lord is holy. But the Master of the Eunuches had lerned an other lesson, ⟨p. 23⟩that he must doo in al things, as the King cōmanded. Which although he would haue taught his scholers also, according to the artes and toung of the Chaldeans: yet hee shewed (by mentioning his feare of the King) that he misliked not their scruple of conscience, & could be contented to grant their request, so that it were without his danger. VVhereby it came to passe, that anz other officer, whom he set ouer them, did grant it. I would to God (my brethren) the Iesuites, & the rest, whom Nabuchodonosor of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters, vsed you no worse then Asphenaz did them. For then, notwithstanding they would say vnto you, VVe feare our Lord the Pope, who hath appointed your doctrine & your faith, if your cōscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god: yet shuld not your soules be forced to that, & other ouerseers might giue you better food. But other ouerseers & they are so linked all in one deuotion to the will & pleasure of their Lord the Pope: that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruite, they nippe it off straight, and teach you to thinke and speake in all respects according to the artes and toung of the Romans. VVhereof they haue giuen experiēce & proofe in many lerned men & writers of your side. But three fresh ⟨p. 24⟩examples may suffice to shew it: euen Ludouicus Viues, Iohannes Molanus, and Carolus Sigonius. For Viues had vttered (in ahis cōmentaries on S. Austin) some speeches that stood not with the Popes liking: as namely, that bPrinces are supreme gouernours in earth next vnder God; that chumane affections doo raigne oftentimes in the holiest men, and dFathers haue their ouersights;
that eSaints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that fthe story of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonical scriptures; that gthey, who prefer the Latin translation before the Greek and Hebrew fountains, are men of evil minds, and corrupt judgements; that hnone must be blamed for the kind of meats, but for excess in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospel; that iPriests are ambitious, covetous, unchaste, enriching their bastards with the churches spoils, yea, kwicked and ungodly in causing things of Christ to be set forth in plays; that lall things almost are sold and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolmen, through ignorance of tongues, have not only marred & smothered mall other arts, but nDivinity too; and ohave profaned it with their curiosity, their vanity, their folly, their rashness in moving and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and ⟨p. 25⟩heathen Philosophers, then scholars of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundry speeches mo to like effect, the Divines of Lovan (in their late pedition of S. Austins works) have taken out of Vives: & shaving off his locks, as qDelilah did Samsons, have made him like an other man. Molanus, setting forth the Church of Romes Legend, rthe Martyrology of Usuarde, with notes of his own, and D. Hessels Censure on certain stories of Saints, had therein discredited not only forged writings, bearing false titles, as stales of the Apostles fathered on Obadiah; of tMartialis, on Aurelian; of uAustin, on Ambrose: but also the reports of their right authors, though speaking not aright, xPope Adrian, yPalladius, Cassianus, Nicephorus, and zSimeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defence of the Mass, of merits, of monkery, of nunnery, of the worship of Saints, of relics, of images, and other superstitions and errors of Popery, doth stand on the credit of these records and evidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and told thereofa by many, was fain to be a Censor of Lovan to himself: and bto raze out his notes of them all, saving of Obadiah, (a forgery ccondemned by the Pope, & Papists, the Roman Inquisitors dmany years ago,) with D. Hessels Censure wholly.
that eSaints are esteemed and worshipped by many, as were the Gods among the Gentiles; that fthe storie of Susanna, of Bel▪ and the Dragon are not canonicall scriptures; that gthey, who preferre the Latin translation before the Greeke and Hebrew fountaines, are men of euill mindes, and corrupt iudgements; that hnone must bee blamed for the kinde of meates, but for excesse in eating, by the doctrine of the Gospell; that iPriests are ambitious, couetous, vnchast, enriching their bastards with the churches spoiles, yea, kwicked and vngodly in causing thinges of Christ to be set foorth in playes; that lall things almost are solde and bought at Rome, & that by rules & orders of most holy law; to be short, that Schoolemē, through ignoraunce of toungs, haue not only marred & smoothered mall other artes, but nDiuinitie too; and ohaue profaned it with their curiositie, their vanitie, their folly, their rashnes in moouing and defining questions, as Aristotelians rather then as Christians, and ⟨p. 25⟩heathen Philosophers, then scholers of the holy Ghost. Now these, & sundrie speeches mo to like effect, the Diuines of Louan (in their late pedition of S. Austins workes) haue taken out of Viues: & shauing off his lockes, as qDalila did Samsons, haue made him like an other man. Molanus, setting foorth the Church of Romes Legende,
Sigonius (in his story of the Western ⟨p. 26⟩Empire) hath written eso of Constantine, that he hath not only not proved the charter of Constantine's donation, (a fable, that he gave the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproved it. Cardinal Sirletus sent him word from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungry Greeks) have mentioned that charter. A miserable evidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enrol it, and use it gently, as fhe doth. Though overthrowing gafterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poor man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his duty to show what Eusebius and many more had written, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinal Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Divines of Lovan with Ludovicus Vives, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of service, or servitude rather, you are trained up by the Popes officers: who, if you utter a word beside the arts and tongue of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your tongues if they be long. Yet this is a freedom in respect of that slavery which your Masters fat you too.
*Alas ye know not silly souls, nor yet do understand
The thraldom of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band.
For it is a small thing that they should restrain ⟨p. 27⟩you from reproving falsehood, or force you to further it in points of lesser weight; (a hard thing for ingenuous minds, but small for them:) unless they lead you also, with heresy, and treason, to band your selves against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrel, that he may be exalted has God iof Gods upon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are kthe higher powers, ordained to execute justice and judgement over the good and evil. The Lord hath given charge of these his anointed, that all, even every soul, should be subject to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was given. Your lMasters do teach you, that if they endeavour to withdraw their subjects to infidelity or heresy, then ought they not to reign: and the Pope, as judge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that 1the persons, over whom the power of the sword is given them, are lay men only, not the clergy.
Sigonius (in his storie of the Weststerne ⟨p. 26⟩Empire) hath written eso of Constantine, that he hath not onely not proued the charter of Constantines donation, (a fable, that hee gaue the Western Empire to the Pope,) but hath disproued it. Cardinall Sirletus sent him worde from Rome, that Balsamon, Caleca, Gennadius (hungrie Greekes) haue mentioned that charter. A miserable euidence against all ancient writers. But such as it was, Sigonius must enroll it, and vse it gently, as fhe doth. Though ouerthrowing gafterward the foundation of it: yet fearfully, poore man, and making his excuse, that he thought it his dutie to shew what Eusebius and many more had writen, albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome. So the dealing of Cardinall Sirletus with Sigonius, of many with Molanus, of the Diuines of Louan with Ludouicus Viues, may teach you, my brethren, to what sort of seruice, or seruitude rather, you are trained vp by the Popes officers: who, if you vtter a worde beside the artes and toung of the Romans, will gag you by and by, and cut your toungs if they be long. Yet this is a freedome in respect of that slauerie which your Masters fat you too.
*Alas yee knowe not seely soules, nor yet doo vnderstand
The thraldome of the Romish crew, & yoke of Popish band.
For it is a small thing that they should restraine ⟨p. 27⟩you from reprouing falsehood, or force you to furder it in points of lesser waight; (a hard thing for ingenuous mindes, but small for them:) vnlesse they leade you also, with heresie, and treason, to band your selues against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrell, that he may bee exalted has God iof Gods vpon the earth. The anointed of the Lord, are kthe higher powers, ordained to execute iustice and iudgement ouer the good and euill. The Lord hath giuen charge of these his anointed, that all, euē euery soule, should be subiect to them; yea, though they be infidels, as they were when this charge was giuen. Your
eDe occident. Imper. l. 3. & 4.
flib. 3.
glib. 4.
*Nescis ab perdita: necdum Laomedouteae sentis periuria genti•▪
lThe Jesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, Controver. 4. part. 2. question. 3. Wherein the rest follow h•m, after their common doctrine of the Pope• supremacy.The Iesuit Robert Bellarmin in his Roman lectures, Controuer. 4. part. 2. quaestion. 3. Wherein the rest folowe h•m, after their common doctrine of the Pope• supremacie.
1As Pope Innocentius the third doth, c. sol•tae. de maiorita•e & obedientia.As Pope Innocentius the third dooth, c. sol•tae. de maiorita•e & obedientia.
Much more, to add thereto, that 2the things and matters wherein they have to govern, are only temporal, not spiritual. Bu••o say, that 3the Pope may deprive them of their kingdoms, nor only take from them some of their subjects in all causes, & all their subjects in some causes, but all their subjects and causes both, it is so ungodly: that mSigebert, a monk, who lived ⟨p. 28⟩five hundred years since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first usurp that power against the Emperor Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleged by your champions for a special witness, nthat the Church of Rome had never any heresy, onor changed ought in faith; pSigebert condemneth it in the Pope as *novelty, and (though half afraid to call it so) heresy. This is the golden image which your Nebuchadnezzar hath raised up to be worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it up, and commandeth you to fall down before it. Though he have ensnared you with his meat and drink: yet learn of your fellow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you have not the courage to do it where you are, qas Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: return out of Babylon into your native country, & rserve the Lord with fear, not in sthe high places, but in this holy temple. But if you will neither return unto us, & will persist there to be the Popes slaves, heretics, & traitors: I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have warned you to turn from your wickedness; I have discharged my duty; your blood upon your own heads.
Much more, to adde thereto, that 2the things and matters wherein they haue to gouerne, are onely temporall, not spirituall. Bu••o say, that 3the Pope may depriue them of their kingdomes, nor onely take from them some of their subiects in all causes, & all their subiects in some causes, but all their subiects and causes both, it is so vngodly: that mSigebert, a moonke, who liued ⟨p. 28⟩fiue hundred yeares since, when Hildebrand the Pope did first vsurpe that power against the Emperour Henry; Sigebert, an historian, alleaged by your champions for a speciall witnesse, nthat the Church of Rome had neuer any heresie, onor changed ought in faith; pSigebert condemneth it in the Pope as *noueltie, and (though halfe afraid to cal it so) heresie. This is the golden image which your Nabuchodonosor hath raised vp to bee worshipped. Beware of him, my brethren, who hath raised it vp, and commaundeth you to fall downe before it. Though he haue ensnared you with his meate and drinke: yet learne of your felow and friend M. Hart, to disobey him in this point. If you haue not the courage to doo it where you are, qas Ananias, Misael, & Azarias did: returne out of Babylon into your natiue country, & rserue the Lord with feare, not in sthe hye places, but in this holy temple. But if you will neither returne vnto vs, & will persist there to be the Popes slaues, heretikes, & traitors: I call heauen and earth to witnesse this day, that I haue warned you to turnē from your wickednes; I haue discharged my dutie; your bloud vpon your owne heads.
2As the Rhemists do, in their Annot. on Heb. 5.•.As the Rhe•mists doo, in their Annot. on Heb. 5.•.
3As Sanders, Bristow, Surius, and all the Papists do in maintenance of the Popes Bulls against Princes.As Sanders, Bristow, Surius, and all the Papists doo in maintenance of the Popes Bulls against Princes.
mSigebertus Monachus Gen•blacen•is.
nSander. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa non sit Antichrist.Sander. de visib. monarch. eccles. lib. 8. demonstrat. 3. quód Papa nō sit Antichrist.
oCampian. Ration. 7.
pIn Chronico. ad annū Christi. 1088.In Chronico. ad annū Christi. 1088.
*Haec sola novitas, non dicam haeresis.Haec sola nouitas, non dicam haeresis.
The first Chapter. The occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and points to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first point, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth to Christ, how it is given to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Popes supremacy.
Pag. 33.
The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacy pretended to be made by Christ unto Peter, 1 in the words, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church: 2 and, To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be known, and who shall judge thereof. 3 What is meant by the keys, the power of binding and loosing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles.
Pag. 55.
The third Chapter. The performance which Christ is supposed to have made (of the supremacy promised,) 1 in saying to Peter, Feed my lambs, feed my sheep: 2 and, Strengthen thy brethren. With the circumstances of the points thereof, Doest ⟨p. 28⟩[…] ⟨p. 29⟩[…] ⟨p. 30⟩thou love me? and, I have prayed for thee Peter. What, and how, they make for Peter: how for all.
Pag. 121.
The fourth Chapter. The practise of the supremacy (which Peter is entitled to) imagined to be proved, 1 by the election of Matthias to the Apostleship: 2 by the Presidentship of the Council held at Jerusalem: 3 and by Pauls journey taken to see Peter, and his abode with him. Wherein, as in other of the acts of the Apostles, the equality of them all, not the supremacy of one is showed.
Pag. 151.
The fifth Chapter. The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for trial of the truth in controversies of religion, but the scripture only. 2 Their writings are corrupted: and counterfeits do bear their names. 3 The sayings, alleged out of their right writings, prove not the pretended supremacy of Peter.
Pag. 184.
The sixth Chapter. The two main grounds, on which the supremacy usurped by the Pope, doth lye. The former, that there should be one Bishop over all in earth: 1 because Christ said, There shall be one flock, and one Pastor; 2 And among the Jews there was one judge, and hie Priest. The later, that the Pope is that one Bishop: 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome (as some say,) 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter. Both examined, and showed to fail in the proof of the Popes supremacy.
Pag. 230.
⟨p. 31⟩The seventh Chapter.
The first Chapter. THe occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and pointes to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first point, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth to Christ, how it is giuen to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie.
Pag. 33.
The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacy pretended to bee made by Christ vnto Peter, 1 in the wordes, Thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke will I build my Church: 2 and, To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be knowne, and who shall iudge thereof. 3 What is meant by the keyes, the power of binding and loosing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles.
Pag. 55.
The third Chapter. The performance which Christ is supposed to haue made (of the supremacie promised,) 1 in saying to Peter, Feede my lambes, feede my sheepe: 2 and, Strengthen thy brethren. With the circumstances of the pointes thereof, Doest ⟨p. 28⟩〈…〉⟨p. 29⟩〈…〉⟨p. 30⟩thou loue me? and, I haue prayed for thee Peter. What, and how, they make for Peter: how for all.
Pag. 121.
The fourth Chapter. The practise of the supremacie (which Peter is entitled to) imagined to be proued, 1 by the election of Matthias to the Apostleship: 2 by the Presidentship of the Councell held at Ierusalem: 3 and by Paules iourney taken to see Peter, and his abode with him. Wherein, as in other of the actes of the Apostles, the equalitie of them all, not the supremacie of one is shewed.
Pag. 151.
The fifth Chapter. The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for triall of the truth in controuersies ofreligion, but the scripture onely. 2 Their writings are corrupted: and counterfeits do beare their names. 3 The sayinges, alleaged out of their right writings, proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter.
Pag. 184.
The sixth Chapter. The two maine groundes, on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope, doth lye. The former, that there should bee one Bishop ouer all in earth: 1 because Christ sayd, There shall be one flock, and one Pastour; 2 And among the Iewes there was one iudge, and hie Priest. The later, that the Pope is that one Bishop: 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome (as some say,) 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter. Both examined, and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie.
Pag. 230.
⟨p. 31⟩The seuenth Chapter.
The scriptures falsely said to be alleged by the Fathers for the supremacy of the Pope, as successor to Peter. 1 Feed my sheep, strengthen thy brethren, and, that thy faith fail not, belong no more to Popes then to other Bishops. 2 The Pope may err in doctrine, 3 not only as a private man, but as Pope: 4 yea, preach false doctrine also. For 5 •he may be a thief, a robber, a wolf; 6 and err not in person only, but in office too; as it is proved in every part of his office: 7 with answer to the reply made against the proofs for the defence of him therein. 8 The succession of Popes hath been prevailed against by the gates of hell: 9 and, when the gates of hell prevailed not against them, their rock did argue soundness of faith, not the supremacy.
Pag. 277.
The eighth Chapter. The authority 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to prove the Popes supremacy: in vain; beside the scripture, which is the only rule of faith. The Fathers, 2 being heard with lawful exceptions that may be justly taken against them, 3 do not prove it. As it is showed first, in Fathers of the Church of Rome. By the way, 4 the name of Priest, the Priestly sacrifice of Christians, the Popish sacrifice of Mass-priests, the proofs brought for the Mass, the substance and ceremonies of it, are laid open. And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selves, 6 nor any other Fathers do prove the Popes supremacy.
Pag. 452.
⟨p. 32⟩The ninth Chapter. 1 The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicene Council, 2 the Council of Nice, 3 of Antioch, of Sardica, of Constantinople, Milevis, Carthage, Africa, 4 of Ephesus, of Chalcedon, of Constantinople eftsoons, and of Nice, of Constance and of Basil; with the judgements of Universities, and several Churches throughout Christendom▪ condemning all the Popes supremacy.
Pag. 652.
The tenth Chapter. 1 Princes are supreme governors of their subjects in things spiritual and temporal: and so is the oath of their supremacy lawful. 2 The breaking of the conference off, M. Hart refusing to proceed farther in it.
Pag. 669.
The scriptures falsly sayd to bee alleaged by the Fathers for the supremacie of the Pope, as successour to Peter. 1 Feede my sheepe, strengthen thy brethren, and, that thy faith faile not, belong no more to Popes then to other Bishops. 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine, 3 not only as a priuate man, but as Pope: 4 yea, preach false doctrine also. For 5 •he may be a theefe, a robber, a woolfe; 6 and erre not in person only, but in office too; as it is proued in euery part of his office: 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein. 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell: 9 and, when the gates of hell preuailed not against them, their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith, not the supremacie.
Pag. 277.
The eighth Chapter. The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie: in vaine; beside the scripture, which is the onely rule of faith. The Fathers, 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them, 3 doo not proue it. As it is shewed first, in Fathers of the Church of Rome. By the way, 4 the name of Priest, the Priestly sacrifice of Christians, the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes, the proofes brought for the Masse, the substance and ceremonies of it, are laid open. And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues, 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy.
Pag. 452.
⟨p. 32⟩The ninth Chapter. 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth. The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell, 2 the Councell of Nice, 3 of Antioche, of Sardica, of Constantinople, Mileuis, Carthage, Afrike, 4 ofEphesus, of Chalcedon, ofConstantinople eftsoones, and of Nice, of Constance and of Basill; with the iudgements of Vniuersities, and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome▪ condemning all the Popes supremacie.
Pag. 652.
The tenth Chapter. 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall: and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull. 2 The breaking of the conference off, M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it.
Pag. 669.
The first Chapter. 1 The occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and points to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first point, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth unto Christ, how it is given to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Popes supremacy.
The first Chapter. 1 The occasion of the conference, the circumstances, and poyntes to be debated on. 2 The ground of the first poynt, touching the head of the Church. Wherein, how that title belongeth vnto Christ, how it is giuen to the Pope: and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie.
RAINOLDES. You have heard, master Hart, 1from the Right honourable M. Secretary Walsingham, the cause why he hath sent for me to come unto you: to confer with you concerning matters of religion, for the better informing of your conscience and judgement. In the which respect you signified unto him your self to be willing to confer with any man: so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withal.
RAINOLDES. You haue heard, maister Hart, 1from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham, the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you: to conferre with you concerning matters of religion, for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement. In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man: so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall.
Hart. In deed I did signify so much to M. Secretary: neither am I unwilling to do that I have promised. Howbeit, I wish rather, that if a conference be purposed, the learned men of our side, whom we have many beyond sea, might be sent for hither, of riper years, and sounder judgement. As for me: the condition of conference with you is somewhat un-even. For I lie in prison, and am adjudged to dye: the closeness of the one, & terror of the other, doth dull a mans spirits, and make him very unfit for study. I neither am of great years, nor ever was of great reading: and yet of that which I have read I have forgotten much, by reason of my long restraint. I am destitute of books: we are not permitted to have any at all, saving the Bible only. You of the other side may have books at will: and you come fresh from the university: whereby you are the readier to use them and allege them. These are great disadvantages, for me to enter into conference with you. Nevertheless, I am content, as I have said, to do it: so that my wants may be supplied with furniture of books, such as I shall desire.
Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie: neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised. Howbeit, I wish rather, that if a conference be purposed, the learned men of our side, whome we haue many beyond sea, might be sent for hether, of riper yeares, and sounder iudgement. As for mée: the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen. For I lie in prison, and am adiudged to dye: the closenesse of the one, & terror of the other, doth dull a mans spirits, and make him very vnfitte for study. I neither am of great yeares, nor euer was of great reading: and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much, by reason of my long restraint. I am destitute of bookes: we are not permitted to haue any at all, sauing the Bible onely. You of the other side may haue bookes at will: and you come fresh from the vniuersitie: whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them. These are great disaduantages, for me to enter into conference with you. Neuerthelesse, I am content, as I haue said, to do it: so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes, such as I shall desire.
Rainoldes. The learned men of your side, it lieth not in me to procure hither. I would to God none of them had ever come from Rome with traitorous intent, nay more then intent: ⟨p. 34⟩ato move rebellion against our Sovereign, and arm the subjects against the Prince. It had fared better both with you and others, who came from him that sent them. Your imprisonment and danger, which hath hereon ensued, I can more easily pity then relieve. I wish you were at liberty: so that her highness were satisfied, whom you have offended. The condition of conference, the which is offered you: is not so un-even in deed as in show. For although I come fresh from the university: yet I come from one of those universities, wherein byour selves report, that few of us do study: and those few that study, study but a few questions of this time only: and that so lightly, that we be afeard to reason with common Catholics: or, if we do reason,3 the common sort of Catholics are able to answer all our arguments, and to say also more for us, then we can say for our selves. You of the other side have been brought up in one of those Seminaries, wherein dall trueth is studied, the masters teach all trueth, the scholars learn all truth: & the course of divinity (which our students, nay our Doctors and Readers can not tell almost what it meaneth) 5is read over in four years, with so great exactness, that if a man follow his study diligently, he may become a learned Divine, and take degree. Yea, besides the Lectures of positive Divinity, of Hebrew, of controversies, of Cases of conscience: the Lecture of Scholastical Divinity alone, (wherein the whole body of perfect Theology doth consist) doth teach, within the same four years, all the points of Catholic faith in such sort, that thereby the hearers come to understand, not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith, but also whatsoever is in all the Tomes of Councils, writings of Fathers, volumes of Ecclesiastical histories, or in any other Author worthy the reading. Wherefore, sith you have heard this course of divinity, and have been admitted to take degree therein upon the hearing of it: you may not allege unripeness of years, or reading, or judgement: especially against me, before whom, in time so long, in place so incomparable, you took degree in divinity:
Rainoldes. The learned men of your side, it lyeth not in me to procure hether. I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente, nay more then intent: ⟨p. 34⟩ato moue rebellion against our Soueraine, and arme the subiectes against the Prince. It had fared better both with you and others, who came from him that sent them. Your imprisonment and daunger, which hath hereon ensued, I can more easily pittie then relieue. I wish you were at libertie: so that her highnes were satisfied, whome you haue offended. The condition of conference, the which is offred you: is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew. For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie: yet I come from one of those vniuersities, wherin byour selues report, that few of vs do study: and those few that study, study but a few questions of this time onely: and that so lightly, that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes: or, if we do reason,3 the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments, and to say also more for vs, then wee can say for our selues. You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries, wherein dall trueth is studied, the maisters teach all trueth, the schollers learne all truth: & the course of diuinitie (which our students, nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth) 5is read ouer in foure years, with so great exactnes, that if a man follow his study diligently, he may become a learned Diuine, and take degree. Yea, besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie, of Hebrue, of controuersies, of Cases of conscience: the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone, (wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist) doth teach, within the same foure yeares, all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort, that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand, not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith, but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels, wrytings of Fathers, volumes of Ecclesiastical histories, or in any other Author worthie the reading. Wherefore, sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie, and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it: you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares, or reading, or iudgement: especially against me, before whome, in time so long, in place so incomparable, you tooke degrée in diuinitie:
aMorton into England, Sanders into Ireland. Sander. vi•ib. Monarc. lib. 7. S•nders l•tters to D. Allen & •l•ick Burke. Geneb ••d. Chronogr. lib. 4.Morton into Englād, Sanders into Ireland. Sander. vi•ib. Monarc. lib. 7. S•nders l•tters to D. Allen & •l•ick Burke. Geneb ••d. Chronogr. lib. 4.
bBristow Demand. 41.Bristow Demaund. 41.
3•oti••▪ 31.
dDeman. 4•.
5The narration of the […] •oome.The narration of the 〈…〉•oome.
if yet our degrees may go for degrees, 1the Pope having deprived us of them. But you have no books, saving the Bible only. You are, it is likely, the readier in that book: chiefly sith gat Rhemes beside your private study of it, you were exercised ⟨p. 35⟩in it daily, by reading over certain Chapters, wherein the hard places were all expounded, the doubts noted, the controversies which arise betwixt you and us resolved, the arguments, which our side can bring unto the contrary, perspicuously and fully answered. So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me: who can be content to deal with you in conference by that book alone, as by the book of all trueth. Notwithstanding, though you complain, I know you may have more books, if you would have such as are best for you to read. But you would have such as might nourish your humour: from reading of the which they, who restrain you, are your friends. If a man do surfeit of variety of dishes, the Physician doth well to diet him with one wholesome kind of meat. Perhaps it were better for some of us, who read all sorts, that we were tied to that alone, & suffered part of your restraint. We are troubled about many things: but one thing is needful. Many please the fancy better; but one doth profit more the mind. He was a wise preacher, who said, hThe reading of many books is a weariness unto the flesh: and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by *the words of trueth, the words of the wise, which are given by one pastor: even by Jesus Christ, iwhose spirit did speak in the Prophets and Apostles, and taught his Church the trueth by them. Howbeit, for as much as kGod hath given gifts to men, pastors, and teachers, whose labour might help us to understand the words of that one pastor: we do receive thankfully the monuments of their labour, left in writing to the Church, which they were set to build, either several, as the Doctors; or assembled, as the Councils: & we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church. Yet so, that we put a difference between them, and that one Pastor. For lGod did give him the spirit not by measure: the rest mhad a measure of grace and knowledge through him. Wherefore, if to supply your whatsoever wants, you would have the books of Doctors and Councils, to use them as helps for the better understanding of the book of Christ:
if yet our degrées may goe for degrées, 1the Pope hauing depriued vs of them. But you haue no bookes, sauing the Bible onely. You are, it is likely, the redier in that booke: chiefly sith gat Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it, you were exercised ⟨p. 35⟩in it dayly, by reading ouer certaine Chapters, wherein the hard places were all expounded, the doubtes noted, the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued, the arguments, which our side can bring vnto the contrarie, perspicuously and fully answered. So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me: who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone, as by the booke of all trueth. Notwithstanding, though you complaine, I know you may haue more bookes, if you would haue such as are best for you to read. But you would haue such as might nourish your humor: from reading of the which they, who restraine you, are your friendes. If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes, the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat. Perhaps it were better for some of vs, who read all sortes, that we were tyed to that alone, & suffred part of your restraint. We are troubled about many things: but one thing is needfull. Many please the fansie better; but one doth profit more ye minde. He was a wise preacher, who said, hThe reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh: and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by *the wordes of trueth, the wordes of the wise, which are giuen by one pastor: euen by Iesus Christ, iwhose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles, and taught his Church the trueth by them. Howbeit, for as much as kGod hath giuen giftes to men, pastours, and teachers, whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor: we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour, left in wryting to the Church, which they were set to builde, eyther seuerall, as the Doctors; or assembled, as the Councels: & we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church. Yet so, that we put a difference betwene them, and that one Pastor. For l
1•ulla Pi•. Quint. anno 156•. as Bristow saith Dem. 41.
gNarrat. of the English Semin. in Ro••eNarrat. of the Engl•sh Semin. in Ro••e
your wants shall be supplied, you shall not need to fear disadvantage in this respect. For M. Secretary hath taken order that you shall have what books you will: unless you will such as cannot be gotten.
your wants shal be supplyed, you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect. For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will: vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten.
Hart. The books that I would have, are principally in deed ⟨p. 36⟩the Fathers and the Councils: which all do make for us, as do the scriptures also. But for my direction to find out their places in all points of controversy which I can neither remember readily, nor dare to trust my self in them: I would have our writers, which in the several points (whereof they treat) have cited them, and build themselves upon them. In the question of the Church and the supremacy, 1Doctor Stapleton; of the Sacraments, and sacrifice of the Mass, oDoctor Allen; of the worshipping of Saints and Images, pDoctor Harpsfield, whose books were set forth by Alan Cope, & bear his name, as qcertain letters in them show. Likewise for the rest of the points that lie in controversy, them who in particular have best written of them: & for them all in general, S. rThomas of Aquine, & sFather Roberts Dictates, and chiefly 7the confession that Torrensis, an other father of the society of Jesus, hath gathered out of S. Augustine, which book we set the more by, ubecause of all the Fathers S. Augustine is the chiefest, as well in our as your judgement: and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers: whose consent is the rule whereby controversies should be ended.
Hart. The bookes that I would haue, are principally in déed ⟨p. 36⟩the Fathers and the Councels: which all do make for vs, as do the scriptures also. But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily, nor dare to trust my selfe in them: I would haue our writers, which in the seuerall poyntes (whereof they treate) haue cited them, and buyld themselues vpon them. In the question of the Church and the supremacie, 1Doctor Stapleton; of the Sacraments, and sacrifice of the Masse, oDoctor Allen; of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images, pDoctor Harpsfield, whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope, & beare his name, as qcertaine letters in them shew. Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie, them who in particular haue best written of them: & for them al in generall, S. rThomas of Aquine, & sFather Roberts Dictates, and chiefly 7the confession that Torrensis, an other father of the societie of Iesus, hath gathered out of S. Augustine, which booke we set the more by, ubecause of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest, as well in our as your iudgement: and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers: whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended.
oDe Sacramentis in gen. de sacram. & sacrific. Eucharist.De Sacramentis in gen. de sacram. & sacrific. ••charist.
pDialog. sex contr. summi Pontificat. &c. oppugnatores ab Al•no Copo editi.
qIn the end of the book after the last dialogue, A. H. L. N. H. E. V. E. A. C. that is to say, Autor huius libri Nicolaus Harpsfield•eum vero edidit Alanus Copus.In the end of the booke after the last dialogue, A. H. L. N. H. E. V. E. A. C. that is to say, Autor huius libri Nicolaus Harpsfield•eum vero edidit Alanus Copus.
rSum. Theolog. & in Magistr. Sent.Summ. Theolog. & in Magistr. Sent.
s••ctata Rob•r•. Politan. in Sum. Theolog. whom. Aqu.••ctata Rob•r•. Politan. in Summ. Theolog. •hom. Aqu.
Rainoldes. These you shall have (God willing) and if you will 1Canisius too: because he is so full of texts of Scriptures, and Fathers, and many do esteem him highly. But this I must request you, to look on the originals of Scriptures, Councils, Fathers, which they do allege. For they do persuade you that all do make for you: but they abuse you in it. They borrow some gold out of the Lords treasure house, and wine out of the Doctors presses▪ but they are deceitful workmen, they do corrupt their gold with dross, their wine with worse then water.
Rainoldes. These you shall haue (God willing) and if you will 1Canisius too: because he is so full of textes of Scriptures, and Fathers, and many doe estéeme him highly. But this I must request you, to looke on the originalles of Scriptures, Councels, Fathers, which they doe alleadge. For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you: but they abuse you in it. They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house, and wine out of the Doctors presses▪ but they are deceitful workmen, they do corrupt their golde with drosse, their wine with worse then water.
the Martyrologe of Vsuarde, with notes of his owne, and D. Hessels Censure on certaine stories of Saints, had therein discredited not onely forged writings, bearing false titles, as
Simeon Metaphrastes. The chiefest defense of the Masse, of merites, of moonkrie, of nunnerie, of the worship of Saintes, of relikes, of images, and other superstitions and errours of Poperie, doth stand on the credit of these records and euidences, or as good as these. Wherefore Molanus being reprehended, and tolde thereof
Masters doo teach you, that if they indeuor to withdraw their subiects to infidelitie or heresie, then ought they not to raigne: and the Pope, as iudge thereof, must depose them. It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous, to say, that
had a measure of grace and knowledge through him. Wherfore, if to supply your whatsoeuer wants, you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels, to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ:
•
u[…]. Con••ss. Augusti. ad Lector.〈…〉. Con••ss. Augusti. ad Lector.
