The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. Then is it to be thought, that when Torrensis quoted that sermon of S. Ambrose: he meant, (as he had said *afore of S. Austin) that either it is his; or some others like him.
Hart. Then is it to be thought, that when Torrensis quoted that sermon of S. Ambrose: he meant, (as he had saide *afore of S. Austin) that either it is his; or some others like him.
Rainoldes. This neither doth he say, nor his scholars gather, nor the truth agree too. For neither was it written by any like S. Ambrose, if a rash and sottish cozener did forge it, which your supposal granteth: and he, with
other after him, allege it as written by S. Ambrose him self; whose it is manifest they would have it supposed, for the cowl's sake. So favourable are you in bearing with your selves, to take that, as certainly written by the Fathers, which certainly is none of theirs. So sharp against us, if we suspect any thing not to be theirs, which is: yea, though we suspect it not, but be falsely thought to have suspected it through other mens default. And thus have I cast out the beam out of our eye. Now, let us see the moat in yours. Your practises in corrupting the writings of the Fathers, are of two sorts: the one, before the art of printing was found; and the other, sithence. Examples of them both I will give in our present question, touching the supremacy. The former sort therefore is rife in the chiefest Doctor of your Church, I mean,
Thomas of Aquine. Who writing against the errors of the Grecians, doth bring in S. Cyril, saying, that as Christ received power of his Father over every power,
Christ gave his own to none else, save to Peter, fully, but to him alone he gave it: and, the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles have affirmed (in every doctrine) Peter and his Church to be in stead of God: and,
to him, even to Peter, all do bow their head by the law of God, and the Princes of the world are obedient to him, even as to the Lord Jesus: & we, as being members, must cleave
unto our head, the Pope and the Apostolic See; thence it is our duty to seek & enquire what is to be believed, what to be thought, what to be held; because
it is the right of the Pope alone, to reprove, to correct, to rebuke, to confirm, to dispose, to loose and bind. These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyril's work entitled
the treasure. But in S. Cyril's treasure there are no such base coins to be found. Wherefore either Thomas coined them him self for want of currant money: or took them of some coiner, and thought to try, if they would go.
Rainoldes. This neither doth hée say, nor his scholers gather, nor the truth agree too. For neither was it written by any like S. Ambrose, if a rash and sottish coosiner did forge it, which your supposall granteth: and he, with fother after him, alleage it as written by S. Ambrose him selfe; whose it is manifest they would haue it supposed, for the cooles sake. So fauourable are you in bearing with your selues, to take that, as certainly written by the Fathers, which certainly is none of theirs. So sharpe against vs, if wee suspect any thing not to be theirs, which is: yea, though we suspect it not, but be falsly thought to haue suspected it through other mens default. And thus haue I cast out the beame out of our eie. Now, let vs sée the moate in yours. Your practises in corrupting the writings of the Fathers, are of two sortes: the one, before the art of printing was found; and the other, sithence. Examples of them both I will giue in our present question, touching the supremacy. The former sort therefore is rife in the chiefest Doctor of your Church, I meane, gThomas of Aquine. Who writing against the errours of the Grecians, doth bring in S. Cyrill, saying, that as Christ receiued power of his Father ouer euery power, 1a power most full and ample, that all thinges should bowe to him; 2so he did commit it most fully and amply both to Peter ⟨p. 204⟩& his successours: & 3Christ gaue his own to none else, saue to Peter, fully, but to him alone he gaue it: and, the Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles haue affirmed (in euery doctrine) Peter and his Church to be in steede of God: and, 4to him, euen to Peter, all do bow their head by the law of God, and the Princes of the world are obedient to him, euen as to the Lord Iesus: & we, as being members, must cleaue 5vnto our head, the Pope and the Apostolike See; thence it is our duetie to seeke & enquire what is to be beleued, what to be thought, what to be held; because 6it is the right of the Pope alone, to reproue, to correct, to rebuke, to confirme, to dispose, to loose and bind. These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled 7the treasure. But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde. Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money: or tooke them of some coiner, and thought to trie, if they would go.
fAs namely, the defendet of the Censure against M. Charke. page 38.
gIn opusculo contra errores Graecorum ad Urbanum quart. Pont. Max.In opusculo contra errores Graecorum ad Vrbanum quart. Pont. Max.
1Ut ei cuncta curuentur plenissimam potestatem.Vt ei cuncta curuentur plenissimam potestatem.
2Sic & Petro & eius successoribus plenissimé […].Sic & Petro & eius successoribus plenissimé 〈…〉.
3Nulli alij quam Petro Christus quod suam est, plenum, sed ipsi solidedit.
4Cui, scilicet Petro, omnesiu re divino caput inclinant, & primates mund• tanquam ipsi Domino Jesu obediunt.Cui, scilicet Petro, omnesiu re diuino caput inclinant, & primates mund• tanquam ipsi Domino Iesu obediunt.
5Capiti nostro, Pontifici Romano.
6Solius Pontificis est arguere, corrigere, increpare, ratum facere, disponere, soluere et ligare.
7Or treasures, as Thomas, and other do entitle it.Or treasures, as Thomas, and other do intitle it.
Rainoldes. None I at all, to him, whose counterfeits I descry. But he did great injury to the poor Christians, whom he abused with such counterfeits. Your *Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holiness of his life and learning. The greatest trial of it was in his service to that See. And are you loth to have it known?
Rainoldes. None I at all, to him, whose counterfeits I discrie. But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians, whom hée abused with such counterfeits. Your *Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning. The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée. And are you loth to haue it knowne?
*Pope John the two and twentieth. An•onin. histor. part. 3. tit. 21. cap. 5.Pope Iohn the two and twentieth. An•onin. histor. part. 3. tit. 21. cap. 5.
Hart. But why should you think either him to be the counterfeiter, or the sayings to be counterfeit, when, (as hCope showeth) they are alleged not only by him, but by other too. Namely, by that worthy and most learned Cardinal 1John of Turrecremata, who was at the Council of Basil; & before him by 2Austin of Ancona: yea by Graecians themselves, who were at the council of Florence, Andreas Bishop of Colossae, and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarch of Constantinople. Of whom when the former said (in *the Council) that Cyril in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope, none of all gainsaid him. The later, (in a treatise that he wrote for the Latins against the Graecians, touching five points whereof one is the Popes supremacy) citeth the same testimonies, ⟨p. 206⟩although perhaps not all, which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyril. Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carp at: and think that words alleged by them all, are counterfeits.
Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter, or the sayings to be counterfeit, when, (as hCope sheweth) they are alleaged not only by him, but by other too. Namely, by that worthie and most learned Cardinall 1Iohn of Turrecremata, who was at the Councell of Basill; & before him by 2Austin of Ancona: yea by Graecians themselues, who were at the councell of Florence, Andreas Bishop of Colossae, and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople. Of whom when the former said (in *the Councell) that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope, none of all gainesaid him. The later, (in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians, touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy) citeth the same testimonies, ⟨p. 206⟩although perhaps not all, which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill. Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at: and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all, are counterfeites.
hAlanus Copus Dialog. 1. ca. 13.
1In summa de Eccles. & in apparatu super decreto unionis Graecorum in Concilio Florentino.In summa de Eccles. & in apparatu super decreto vnionis Graecorum in Concilio Florentino.
Rainoldes. Counterfeits are counterfeits, though they go thorough twenty hands. Al these, whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope, did live long after Thomas: and seem to have alleged S. Cyril on his credit, as Cope himself doth also. Wherefore I could not think that they had been the coiners of that which was before they were. But Thomas is the first, with whom I find the words: and therefore greatest reason to lay the fault on him, unless he show from whom he had them. At least, seeing I know the words are not Cyril's, whose Thomas saith they be: I did him no injury (I trust) when I said, that either he received them at some coiners hands, or coined them him self.
Rainoldes. Counterfeites are counterfeites, though they go thorough twenty hands. Al these, whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope, did liue long after Thomas: and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit, as Cope himselfe doth also. Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of yt which was before they were. But Thomas is the first, with whom I finde the words: and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him, vnlesse he shew from whom he had them. At least, séeing I know the words are not Cyrils, whose Thomas saith they be: I did him no iniurie (I trust) when I said, that either he receiued them at some coyners handes, or coyned them him selfe.
Hart. Although the words are not to be found now in those parts of Cyril's treasure, which are extant: yet that is not sufficient to prove, that either Thomas or some other forged them. For iMelchior Canus affirmeth that heretics have maimed that book, and have razed out all those things which therein pertained to the Popes authority. Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact upon John: the Catholics have found, and showed.
Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure, which are extant: yet that is not sufficient to proue, that either Thomas or some other forged them. For iMelchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke, and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie. Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn: the Catholikes haue found, and shewed.
Rainoldes. Me thinks, you and Canus deal against us, as kthe men of Doryla did against Flaccus. Whom when they accused out of their public records, and their records were called for: they said that they were robbed of them upon the way, by, I know not what shepherds. You accuse us, that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy. The records, by which you prove it his right, are the words of Cyril. Cyril's words are called for, that they may be seen. You say, they are not extant: you are robbed of them, by, I know not what heretics. Whereon to put a greater likelihood, you say further, that heretics have done an other robbery in Theophylact, as they are charged by Catholics. And this do you say: but you say it only: you bring no proof, you name no witness, you show no token of it. If such accusations may make a man guilty: who shall be innocent? He that should have dealt-among the lheathens so: would have been counted rather a slanderer ⟨p. 206⟩then an accuser.
Rainoldes. Mée thinkes, you and Canus deale against vs, as kthe men of Doryla did against Flaccus. Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes, and their recordes were called for: they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way, by, I know not what shepheardes. You accuse vs, that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy. The recordes, by which you proue it his right, are the wordes of Cyrill. Cyrils wordes are called for, that they may be séene. You say, they are not extant: you are robbed of them, by, I know not what heretikes. Whereon to put a greater likelihood, you say further, that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact, as they are charged by Catholikes. And this doo you say: but you say it onely: you bring no proofe, you name no witnesse, you shew no token of it. If such accusations may make a man guiltie: who shall be innocent? Hee that should haue dealt-among the lheathens so: would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer ⟨p. 206⟩then an accuser.
kCicero pro L. Flacco.
lCic. pro M. C• lio: Accusario crimen desiderat, rem ut desiniat, hominem ut notet, argumento probet, te•te confirme•.Cic. pro M. C• lio: Accusario crimen desiderat, rem vt desiniat, hominem vt notet, argumento probet, te•te confirme•.
Hart. Admit, that the words were not razed perhaps out of any book of Cyril, which we have. Yet might they be in some of them, which are mlost, or nnot set forth in Latin. For, we have no more then fourteen books of his treasure: whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the osixth general Council. And this is enough to remove suspicion of forgery from Thomas, and other, who allege them.
Hart. Admitte, that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill, which we haue. Yet might they be in some of them, which are mlost, or nnot set forth in Latin. For, we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure: whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the osixth general Councell. And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas, and other, who alleage them.
Rainoldes. Nay, although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there: yet meant they no more of Cyril, then we have. For that, which in our Latin edition is the twelfth, is the two and thirtieth, in the Grecians count.
Rainoldes. Nay, although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there: yet meant they no more of Cyrill, then we haue. For that, which in our Latin edition is the twelfth, is the two and thirtieth, in the Grecians count.
Hart. The Council hath it thus. Hoc & sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet, epistolam ad profanos explanans: nec enim unam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei & creaturae; ut neque id quod creatum est ad divinam deducamus essentiam, neque id quod est divinae naturae praecipuum, ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus.
Hart. The Councel hath it thus. Hoc & sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet, epistolam ad profanos explanans: nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei & creaturae; vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam, neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum, ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus.
Rainoldes. This sentence, alleged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Greek, is pin the twelfth book of our Latin Cyril. Saving that, he being translated by *an other hath it in other words. But there is the sentence: the very same sentence which the Council pointeth too.
Rainoldes. This sentence, alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke, is pin the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill. Sauing that, he being translated by *an other hath it in other wordes. But there is the sentence: the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too.
