The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
TO THE RIGHT Honourable, the Lord Robert Dudley, Earle of Leicester, one of her Majesties privy Council, and Chancellor of the University of Oxford, grace and peace be multiplied.
TO THE RIGHT Honorable, the Lord Robert Dudley, Earle of Leicester, one of her Maiesties priuie Councell, and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford, grace and peace be multiplied.
The beginning of Schools and Universities (right Honourable) in the Church of God, doth show that they were planted to be anurseries of Prophets: who, being instructed in the truth of his word, might deliver it to men; and lighten, as stars, the darkness of the world with the beams of it. But it hath come to pass by devises of the dragon, bwhose tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, & cast them to the earth, that they have been turned into seminaries of false Prophets: to maintain errors and the power of darkness, against the light and truth of Christ. ⟨p. 4⟩The primitive Church had experience hereof in them cof the Synagogue of Libertines, and Cyrenians, who disputed with Steven. A lesson for the faithful in the ages to follow, that they should not think it strange, or be dismayed, if Schools & Universities of men professing wisdom were possessed of folly, and sought to pervert the straight ways of the Lord. The consideration whereof, as it was needful for our predecessors, when Rabbins of the Jews, Philosophers of the Heathens, Sorbonists among Christians, being seduced themselves, seduced others: so have the Seminaries of our English students (erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes) made it needful also for us at this day. The more: how much the nearer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines & Cyrenians. For as they defended
of Moses, and God, the law, & the Temple: so do the Seminaries, of the Catholic faith, the Scriptures, and the Church. As the means they used were slanders of Steven,
that he spake blasphemous words against the holy place, and the law: so do the Seminaries charge us with revolting
⟨p. 5⟩
from the holy Church, and corrupting the Scriptures. I am not worthy to be compared with the least of the servants of God, who lived at that time, in which he poured the gifts of his holy spirit from heaven so abundantly. Howbeit, as it pleased him to raise Steven to dispute with some of the Jewish Synagogue: so hath he vouchsafed me of this favour, that I should be called to confer with certain of the Popish Seminaries. Of whom, one, contented to proceed farther therein then the rest; by writing, not by word only:
THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities (right Honorable) in the Church of God, doth shew that they were planted to bee anurseries of Prophets: who, being instructed in the truth of his word, might deliuer it to men; and lighten, as starres, the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it. But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon, bwhose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen, & cast them to the earth, that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets: to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse, against the light and truth of Christ. ⟨p. 4⟩The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them cof the Synagogue of Libertines, and Cyrenians, who disputed with Steuen. A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow, that they should not thinke it strange, or be dismayed, if Schooles & Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie, and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof, as it was needefull for our predecessours, when Rabbines of the Iewes, Philosophers of the Heathēs, Sorbonists amōg Christians, being seduced themselues, seduced others: so haue the Seminaries of our English students (erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes) made it needeful also for vs at this day. The more: how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines & Cyrenians. For as they defended dthe Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers: so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions. As they did pretend the care of religion, eof Moses, and God, the law, & the Temple: so do the Seminaries, of the Catholike faith, the Scriptures, and the Church. As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen, fthat he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place, and the law: so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting ⟨p. 5⟩from the holy Church, and corrupting the Scriptures. I am not worthie to be compared with the least ofthe seruants of God, who liued at that time, in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly. Howbeit, as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue: so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour, that I should be called to conferre with certaine ofthe Popish Seminaries. Of whom, one, contented to proceede farther therin then the rest; by writing, not by word onely:
hath given occasion of this, which here I publish. Wherein how indifferently he hath been dealt with: himself hath declared. My conscience, for mine own part, beareth me witness that I have endeavoured to defend the cause of the same truth, with the same purpose, by the same principles, & grounds, that gSteven did. Wishing from my hart, (if so it please God,) that it may prevail more with English Papists, then Stevens speech did with the Jewish Priests. But ready (by his grace) to endure their spite, if they hate me for telling them the truth, as the Jews did him. Now, sith Luke, who penned the story of Steven, sent it to hTheophilus, imost noble Theophilus: I have been the bolder to present my conference ⟨p. 6⟩unto you, right Honourable; advanced, in state, to be of the most noble; in mind, a Theophilus, and lover of the truth. Your benefits both publicly to our University, in maintenance of our privileges; & privately to me ward, a member thereof: have bound me to offer this testificat•on of a thankful mind. And sith it hath been (I know) a grief unto you, that the Popish Synagogue hath drawn 4proselytes thence: I thought it most meet that the labours spent with one so withdrawn, and printed to reclaim them who are gone, if may be, or at least to stay them who are not gone, should bring him the salve whom the sore had touched nearest. Which moveth me withal to beseech your Honour, that, as you have begun, so you will go forward in being careful for our nursery: that they, who have the charge of husbanding it, may fence it and dress it faithfully and wisely; that neither the wild boar of the forest, nor other vermin may annoy it; that lthe fruits of the trees thereof may serve for meat, & the leaves for medicine, through waters running out of the sanctuary; and mthe tree of life may grow in the middest of it, as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leave a most worthy monument of ⟨p. 7⟩a noble Theophilus: the reward whereof shall follow from God, nwho will render to every man according to his works; the remembrance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth of England, to your eternal praise throughout all posterity. The Lord of his mercy bless you with continual increase of the graces of his holy spirit:
hath giuen occasion ofthis, which here I publish. Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with: himselfe hath declared. My conscience, for mine owne part, beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth, with the same purpose, by the same principles, & groūds, that gSteuē did. Wishing from my hart, (if so it please God,) that it may preuaile more with English Papists, then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests. But ready (by his grace) to endure their spite, ifthey hate me for telling them the truth, as the Iewes did him. Now, sith Luke, who penned the story of Steuen, sent it to hTheophilus, imost noble Theophilus: I haue bene the bolder to present my conference ⟨p. 6⟩vnto you, right Honorable; aduanced, in state, to be of the most noble; in minde, a Theophilus, and louer ofthe truth. Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie, in maintenance of our priuileges; & priuately to me ward, a member thereof: haue bound me to offer this testificat•on of a thankefull minde. And sith it hath bene (I know) a greefe vnto you, that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne 4proselytes thence: I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne, and printed to reclaime them who are gon, if may bee, or at least to stay them who are not gon, should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest. Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour, that, as you haue begoon, so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie: that they, who haue the charge of husbanding it, may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely; that neither the wild boare of the forest, nor other vermin may anoy it; that lthe fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate, & the leaues for medicine, through waters running out of the sanctuarie; and mthe tree of life may grow in the middest of it, as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of ⟨p. 7⟩a noble Theophilus: the reward whereof shall folow from God,
specially of that, owhich hath the promise of this life, and of the life to come, to your endless comfort, through Jesus Christ the Lord of life. At London, the eighteenth of July. 1584.
specially of that, owhich hath the promise of this life, and of the life to come, to your endlesse comfort, through Iesu Christ the Lord of life. At London, the eighteenth of Iuly. 1584.
Behold (gentle Reader) the conference, which thou hast so long looked for, between M. Rainoldes and me, at length ended: as also it had been more then twelve months since, had not my self hindered the coming of it forth, when it was nigh ready to be delivered to the Printer. For it is now above two years ago, that the right honourable, Sir Francis Walsingham, as he had showed me great favour from the time that I was apprehended, in granting me liberty of conference at home, first in mine own country, and afterward in prison: so, when the sentence of death was past upon me, he ceased not still to offer me the same favour if I would admit it. Which I, grounding my self upon the most certain foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for ever, did gladly yield to, and (as became me) accepted of it with all duty. Whereupon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to confer with me: taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoever books I did need thereto. But after we had spent certain ⟨p. 10⟩weeks together in conference by word of mouth, and I continued still in my former mind: he desired to have the sum thereof in writing, that he might see the grounds on which I stood. And to this intent we set down together brief notes of the points that we dealt in: I showing my reasons with the places of the authors whose judgement and learning I rather trusted too, then to my own skill; and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good. Howbeit, those notes being so short (as pointing to things rather then unfolding them) that they could not well be understood by any, but our selves only, unless they were drawn more largely and at full: my self being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death, (as altogether uncertain when I might be called to yield up mine account before God and man,) requested M. Rainoldes to take pains to pen them according to our notes thereof. Promising him that I would peruse it when he had done it, and allow of it, if it were to my mind; or otherwise correct, if I misliked ought in it. This pains he undertook, and sending me the parts thereof from time to time as he finished them, I noted such things as I would have added, or altered therein, and he performed it accordingly. But when I perceived that it was prepared to be set forth in print:
BEhold (gentle Reader) the conference, which thou hast so long looked for, betweene M. Rainoldes and me, at length ended: as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since, had not my selfe hindred the cōming of it foorth, when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer. For it is now aboue two yeares ago, that the right honorable, Syr Francis Walsingham, as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended, in graunting me libertie of conference at home, first in mine owne countrie, and afterwarde in prison: so, when the sentence of death was past vpon me, hee ceased not still to offer me the same fauour if I would admit it. VVhich I, grounding my selfe vpon the most certayne foundation of the Church so strengthened by God that it shall stand for euer, did gladly yeeld to, and (as became me) accepted of it with all dutie. VVherevpon his Honour sent for M. Rainoldes to conferre with me: taking order also that I should be furnished with whatsoeuer bookes I did neede thereto. But after we had spent certayne ⟨p. 10⟩weekes together in conference by word of mouth, and I continued still in my former mind: he desired to haue the summe thereof in writing, that he might see the groundes on which I stood. And to this intent we set downe together breefe notes of the points that we dealt in: I shewing my reasons with the places of the autours whose iudgement and learning I rather trusted too, then to my owne skill; and M. Rainoldes answering them in such sort as he thought good. Howbeit, those notes being so short (as pointing to thinges rather then vnfolding them) that they could not well bee vnderstood by any, but our selues onely, vnlesse they were drawne more largely and at full: my selfe being troubled then with more necessary cogitations of death, (as altogether vncertaine when I might be called to yeeld vp mine account before God and man,) requested M. Rainoldes to take paines to penne them according to our notes thereof. Promising him that I would peruse it when he had doon it, and allow of it, if it were to my mind; or otherwise correct, if I misliked ought in it. This paines he vndertooke, and sending me the partes thereof from time to time as he finished them, I noted such thinges as I would haue added, or altered therein, and he performed it accordingly. But when I perceiued that it was prepared to be set foorth in print:
I sought means to stay it all that I could, for some considerations ⟨p. 11⟩which seemed to me very great and important. Marry since that again understanding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward, whereunto he granted me also by special warrant the use of such books as I should call for to help my self withal: I set afresh upon it, & by letters written unto M. Rainoldes & received from him, I had mine own speeches & reasons perfected, as I would. Wherefore, I acknowledge that he hath set down herein a true report of those things which past in conference between us, according to the grounds and places of the authors, which I had quoted & referred my self too. As for that which he affirmeth *in one place, that I have told him, that my opinion is, the Pope may not depose Princes: in deed I told him so much. And in truth I think that although the spiritual power be more excellent & worthy than the temporal; yet they are both of God, neither doth the one depend of the other. Whereupon I gather as a certain conclusion, that the opinion of them, who hold the Pope to be a temporal Lord over Kings & Princes, is unreasonable and unprobable altogether. For he hath not to meddle with them or theirs civilly, much less to depose them or give away their kingdoms: that is no part of his commission. He hath in my judgment the Fatherhood of the Church, not a Princehood of the world: Christ himself taking no such title upon him, ⟨p. 12⟩nor giving it to Peter, or any other of his disciples. And that is it which I meant to defend in him, and no other sovereignty. Humbly desiring pardon of her Majesty, my gracious sovereign Lady, for my plain dealing in that, which (so Christ help me) I take to be Gods cause, and the Churches only. As I do also most willingly submit my self to the courteous correction of all men, who, through greater skill, and perfecter judgement, see more then I do in the depth of these matters whereof I have conferred. Farewell, gentle Reader: and now that I have showed thee my dealing herein, let me obtain this little request at thy hands, that thou be not too hasty in giving thy judgement, before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and uprightly.
I sought meanes to stay it all that I could, for some considerations ⟨p. 11⟩which seemed to me very great and important. Marry since that againe vnderstāding it to be his Honours pleasure that it should go forward, wherevnto he granted me also by speciall warrant the vse of such bookes as I should call for to helpe my selfe withall: I set afresh vpon it, & by letters written vnto M. Rainoldes & receiued from him, I had mine owne speeches & reasons perfitted, as I would. VVherefore, I acknowledge that he hath set downe herein a true report of those things which past in conference betweene vs, according to the grounds and places of the autours, which I had quoted & referred my self too. As for that which he affirmeth *in one place, that I haue told him, that my opinion is, the Pope may not depose Princes: in deede I told him so much. And in truth I thinke that although the spiritual power be more excellēt & worthie thē the temporall; yet they are both of God, neither doth the one depend of the other. VVherevpon I gather as a certaine conclusion, that the opinion of them, who holde the Pope to be a temporall Lord ouer Kings & Princes, is vnreasonable and vnprobable altogether. For he hath not to meddle with thē or theirs ciuilly, much lesse to depose them or giue away their kingdomes: that is no part of his commission. He hath in my iudgment the Fatherhoode of the Church, not a Princehood of the world: Christ himself taking no such title vpon him, ⟨p. 12⟩nor giuing it to Peter, or any other of his disciples. And that is it which I meant to defend in him, and no other soueraintie. Humbly desiring pardon of her Maiestie, my gratious soueraine Lady, for my plaine dealing in that, which (so Christ helpe me) I take to be Gods cause, and the Churches only. As I do also most willingly submit my selfe to the curteous correction of all men, who, through greater skill, and perfitter iudgement, see more then I doe in the depth of these matters whereof I haue conferred. Farewell, gentle Reader: and now that I haue shewed thee my dealing herein, let me obtaine this little request at thy handes, that thou be not too hasty in giuing thy iudgemēt, before thou hast weighed all things sincerely and vprightly.
*In the seve•th Chapter, and the seventh Division.In the seue•th Chapter, and the seuenth Diuision.
Brethren, my harts desire & prayer unto God for Israel is, that they may be saved. For that which S. aPaul wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, bhis brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) your selves, my kinsmen according to the flesh in like sort, and countrymen of England. Of whom I have the greater compassion and pity, because I am persuaded that you sin of ignorance rather then of wilfulness; and have a devotion to serve God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be served. That I may justly say the same unto you, which S. cPaul of them: For I bear you record that you have the zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeal, which the Israelites had, was of dthe law. The knowledge, which they wanted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after ethe traditions and doctrines of ⟨p. 14⟩their Fathers: and knowing not fChrist to be the end thereof, they sought their own righteousness against the righteousness of God. The zeal, which you have, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to understand it gafter the manner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that hthe Pope is supreme head of the Church; ithe trade of Popish Priesthood, the way to save souls; kthe sacrifice of Popish Mass, the sovereign sacrifice; in a word, lthat Papistry is the Catholic faith: and mthe faith and service of the Church of England is cursed and damnable; specially, nthe oath of the Queens supremacy. And your minds are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as far in the defence of them, as the Donatists did, who loved their errors better then their lives. Great zeal, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospel teacheth not that which you imagine; your Fathers were abused by Pharisees & Rabbins: your Pope hath usurped over all Christian states; your Priesthood is impious; your Mass, abomination; your Popish faith, heresy; our doctrine of the Queens supremacy, & oath thereto, our ministry of the word, of sacraments, ⟨p. 15⟩of prayers, agreeth with the Gospel, and therefore is holy. Which things sith this Conference, that one of your Seminary-Priests, and I have had, doth open & prove: peruse it (• beseech you) with equity and judgement;
BRethren, my harts desire & prayer vnto God for Israel is, that they may bee saued. For that which S. aPaule wrote to the Romans, touching the Israelites, bhis brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh, as being of one nation with him▪ that must I protest to you (brethren) your selues, my kinsemen according to the flesh in like sort, and countriemen of England. Of whom I haue the greater compassion and pitie, because I am perswaded that you sinne of ignorance rather then of wilfulnesse; and haue a deuotion to serue God aright, though not the right way wherein he will be serued. That I may iustly say the same vnto you, which S. cPaule of thē: For I beare you record that you haue the zeale of God, but not according to knowledge. The zeale, which the Israelites had, was of dthe law. The knowledge, which they wāted, was the true meaning of it. For they expounded it after ethe traditions and doctrines of ⟨p. 14⟩their Fathers: and knowing not fChrist to be the ende thereof, they sought their owne righteousnesse against the righteousnesse of God. The zeale, which you haue, is of the Gospel. The knowledge, which you want, is the true meaning of it too. For you are instructed to vnderstand it gafter the maner of your Fathers. Whereby your seducer beareth you in hand, that hthe Pope is supreme head of the Church; ithe trade of Popish Priesthoode, the way to saue soules; kthe sacrifice of Popish Masse, the souerain sacrifice; in a word, lthat Papistrie is the Catholike faith: and
and study to join knowledge to your zeal, that you may be saved. Perhaps your Superiors (the *guides who seduce you) will not give you leave to read it and peruse it. But there are two reasons which should move them to condescend thereto: the one, of the work; the other, of the authors. The work, is a conference: which themselves have called for. And othe chiefest of them hath wished, that some of theirs might meet in scholastical combat with any of us before indifferent judges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemn of fancy and humane tradition, should then be invincibly proved to be most agreeable to Gods word. Wherefore sith this combat hath been undertaken, and that in such sort as plearned men have thought to be most fit for trial of the truth; not by extemporal speaking, but writing with advise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answers, the replies set down, and sifted of both sides, till each had fully said; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithful all may judge of it: your guides cannot honestly deny you the sight ⟨p. 16⟩of their invincible proofs therein. The authors of the work: are M. Hart and I. Of whom qthey have given out in print to the world, sithence we began it, that I, 1though the learnedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2did show my self so much the more unlearned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3a noble champion of Christ, and 4a holy Priest, a 5Bachelor of Divinity, 6had taken deeper root in the foundations of the faith, and 7was of sounder learning, then that the reasons, which I (8 no common Minister of the English synagogue) brought to overthrow him, could remove him from it. So that 9I was fain to go whence I came: and leave him, as I found him. Now, if they themselves think this to be true, which they have given out: they may boldly suffer you to read our Conference, that you may see the triumph, which a noble champion of yours, a holy Priest, a Bachelor of Divinity, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an unlearned Minister, and yet the learnedst of that sort. But if they will not give you leave to read it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholars, and base words of us, are but sleights of policy; as many vaunts & lies be in the same pamphlets wherein these are written.
and studie to ioine knowledge to your zeale, that you may be saued. Perhaps your Superiors (the *guides who seduce you) will not giue you leaue to reade it and peruse it. But there are two reasōs which should moue them to cōdescend thereto: the one, of the worke; the other, of the autours. The worke, is a conference: which thēselues haue called for. And othe chiefest of thē hath wisht, that some of theirs might meete in scholasticall combat with any of vs before indifferent iudges: trusting that their doctrine, which we condemne of fansie and humane tradition, should then be inuincibly proued to be most agreeable to Gods word. Wherfore sith this combat hath bene vndertaken, and that in such sort as plerned men haue thought to be most fit for triall of the truth; not by extemporall speaking, but writing with aduise; the question agreed of; the arguments, the answeres, the replies set downe, and sifted of both sides, till ech had fully sayd; in fine, the whole published, that Churches and the faithfull all may iudge of it: your guides cannot honestly denie you the sight ⟨p. 16⟩of their inuincible proofes therein. The autours of the worke: are M. Hart and I. Of whom qthey haue giuē out in print to the worlde, sithence we began it, that I, 1though the lernedst (as the reporter saith) of that sort and order, yet 2did shew my selfe so much the more vnlerned, how much the more earnestly I was dealt with: but M. Hart, 3a noble champion of Christ, and 4a holy Priest, a 5Bacheler of Diuinitie, 6had taken deeper roote in the foundations of the faith, and 7
Nay, you may suspect, that ⟨p. 17⟩there is somewhat which they are afraid least you should espy: and therefore debar you from the means of knowing it. In deed, my deer brethren, you are circumvented by rthem who commend the love, and liberality, and piety of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to train up English youth under the Jesuits and other famous men. For the love pretended towards you therein, is, to have you his servants. The liberality employed in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit thereunto. The Jesuits and others set to train you up, are set to nuzzle you in heresy and treason, the pillars of his faith and State. The sKing of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, did command Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuchs, that of the Israelites he should bring tchildren, who were without blemish, well favoured, wise, and skilful, and had ability in them; & that he should teach them the arts and tongue of the Chaldeans. uAnd the King appointed them provision every day of a portion of his meat, and of the wine which he drank: that they, being brought up so for three years, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregory the thirteenth loveth you, brethren, as King Nebuchadnezzar did the Israelites. xHe hath found the means that there should be brought to the Masters of his Eunuchs, Jesuits, ⟨p. 18⟩& others, a number of the best wits out of England, that they may teach you the arts and tongue of the Romans. And yhe hath appointed provision for you of monthly exhibition, in bountiful sort: but to what end? zthat after certain years of this education you may stand before the Pope. aDaniel perceived that the Kings love & liberality was not single; but sought his own profit: which bhis fellows also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you have the spirit of Daniel and his fellows: you will see as much in the Popes double love, and liberality. Sure, he giveth juster cause to distrust it, then the King did. For, the Kings drift in training up them, that they might stand before him, was only that 10they should attend and wait upon him, as courtiers, in his palace. Or if, because he chose them 11of the blood royal, and seed of the nobility, he had a further drift: it was but the assurance of their land of Judah. But you are trained up by the Pope to serve him in provinces abroad, not in his palace at home;
Nay, you may suspect, that ⟨p. 17⟩there is somewhat which they are afrayde least you should espie: and therefore debarre you frō the meanes of knowing it. In deed, my deere brethren, you are circumuented by rthem who commend the loue, and liberalitie, and pietie of the Pope, in erecting Seminaries to traine vp English youth vnder the Iesuites and other famous men. For the loue pretended towards you therein, is, to haue you his seruants. The liberalitie emploied in feeding and teaching you, is, to make you pliable and fit therevnto. The Iesuites and others set to train you vp, are set to noosell you in heresie and treason, the pillers of his faith and State. The sKing of Babylon, Nabuchodonosor, did commaund Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuches, that of the Israelites he should bring tchildren, who were without blemish, well fauoured, wise, and skilfull, and had abilitie in them; & that he should teach them the artes and tongue of the Chaldeans. uAnd the King appointed them prouision euerie day of a portion of his meate, and of the wine which he dranke: that they, being brought vp so for three yeares, might, at the end thereof, stand before the King Pope Gregorie the thirteenth loueth you, brethren, as King Nabuchodonosor did the Israelites. xHe hath founde the meanes that there should bee brought to the Masters of his Eunuches, Iesuites, ⟨p. 18⟩& others, a number of the best wittes out of England, that they may teach you the artes and toung of the Romans. And yhe hath appointed prouision for you of moonthly exhibition, in bountifull sort: but to what ende? zthat after certain yeres of this education you may stand before the Pope. aDaniel perceaued that the Kings loue & liberalitie was not single; but sought his own profit: which b
rAllen in hi•• pologie The narration o• t•e English […] in […].Allen in hi•• pologie The n••ration o• t•e English 〈…〉 in 〈…〉.
who will render to euery man according to his workes; the remēbrance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland, to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie. The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite:
the oth of the Queenes supremacie. And your mindes are taken so with these opinions, that you are content to venture as farre in the defense of them, as the Donatists did, who loued their errours better then their liues. Great zeale, but not according to knowledge, my brethren. For the Gospell teacheth not that which you imagin; your Fathers were abused by Phariseis & Rabbines: your Pope hath vs•rped ouer all Christian states; your Priesthoode is impious; your Masse, abominatiō; your Popish faith, heresie; our doctrine of the Queenes supremacie, & oth thereto, our ministerie of the word, of sacraments,
⟨p. 15⟩
of prayers, agreeth with the Gospell, and therefore is holy. Which thinges sith this Conference, that one of your Seminarie-Priests, and I haue had, doth open & proue: peruse it (• beseech you) with equitie and iudgement;
was of sounder lerning, then that the reasons, which I (
I was faine to go whence I came: and leaue him, as I found him. Now, if they themselues thinke this to be true, which they haue geuen out: they may boldely suffer you to reade our Conference, that you may see the triumphe, which a noble champiō of yours, a holy Priest, a Bacheler of Diuinitie, hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue, an vnlerned Minister, and yet the lernedst of that sort. But if they will not giue you leaue to reade it: then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholers, and base wordes of vs, are but sleights of policie; as many vauntes & lyes be in the same pamphlets wherein these are writen.
•
9Re insecta, unde venit, •ecessit.Re insecta, vnde venit, •ecessit.
his felowes also, Ananias, Misael, and Azarias saw. If you haue the spirite of Daniel and his felowes: you wil see as much in the Popes double loue, and liberalitie. Sure, hee geueth iuster cause to distrust it, then the King did. For, the Kings drift in trayning vp them, that they might stand before him, was only that
of the blood royall, and seede of the nobilitie, he had a farder drift: it was but the assurance of their land of Iuda. But you are trained vp by the Pope to serue him in prouinces abroade, not in his palace at home;
