The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. Yet he saith withal, that Peter did nominate Clemens to succeed him. But Clemens gave the room first to Linus, and then to Cletus, not so much of modesty, as by the counsel of the Lord, 1least the example of this nomination should pass to the posterity, and derogate from the free providence of the Church in choosing of her own Bishop.
Hart. Yet he saith withall, that Peter did nominate Clemens to succeede him. But Clemens gaue the roome first to Linus, and then to Cletus, not so much of modestie, as by the counsell of the Lord, 1least the example of this nomination should passe to the posteritie, and derogate from the free prouidence of the Church in choosing of her owne Bishop.
1Ne huius nominationi• exemplum transiret ad posteros▪ & liberae ecclesiae providenti• in deligendo sibi praesule decerperet.Ne huius nominationi• exemplum transiret ad posteros▪ & liberae ecclesiae prouidenti• in deligendo sibi praesule decerperet.
Rainoldes. He saith so in deed. But who seeth not that this was devised to make stories agree with the tale of Clemens: and (by the way) to countenance the election of Popes, which now the Cardinals use? For, cthe book of Ceremonies of the Church of Rome, treating of that election, affirmeth that Peter nominated Clemens to be his successor, with this condition (it is thought,) if the Cardinals would admit him. But they,
perceiving that the form of this nomination might greatly hurt the Church in process of time, did not accept of Clemens, but did choose Linus, and made him Pope after Peter. Howbeit Clemens afterward was chosen by the Cardinals, when Linus and Cletus were deceased. Though Genebrard in •••ming the fancy to his purpose, doth not so much follow the book of the Ceremonies as the gloss of the
renounced the Papacy, considering that it would be an evil and pernicious thing for the example, that any should choose his own successor. Into such follies do you […] your selves, to say that the blessed Apostle of Christ, S. Peter, did ordain that, which was pernicious for the example, refused by the Pope, misliked by the Cardinals, prejudicial to the Church: and all to maintain the epistle of Clemens, with the tale in it, that Peter made him his successor. A thing so absurd, that where it is mentioned in
Comestor, the author of the scholastical history, who lived when the darkness of Popery was grossest, refuteth and rejecteth it as a mere forgery. But whatsoever it •e, and ho• so ever ancient, […] the same
Jerome saith, did bear the name of Clemens, and was reproved by old writers, but be it, what you will: you confess your self that to be untrue, for proof whereof you cited it, that Clemens succeeded Peter, and not Linus. Wherefore, seeing Linus did succeed Peter, & that while Peter lived, in the same sort as Zachaeus did (you say) at Caesarea, & Evodius at Antioch: the Bishops of Antioch, & of Caesarea, may claim as well the Papacy by Peters succession, as may the Bishop of Rome.
Rainoldes. He saith so in deede. But who séeth not that this was deuised to make stories agrée with the tale of Clemens: and (by the way) to countenance the election of Popes, which now the Cardinals vse? For, cthe booke of Ceremonies of the Church of Rome, treating of that election, affirmeth that Peter nominated Clemens to be his successour, with this cōdition (it is thought,) if the Cardinals would admit him. But they, 2perceiuing that the forme of this nomination might greatly hurt the Church in processe of time, did not accept of Clemens, but did choose Linus, and made him Pope after Peter. Howbeit Clemens afterwarde was chosen by the Cardinals, when Linus and Cletus were deceased. Though Genebrard in •••ming the fansie to his purpose, doth not so much follow the booke of the Ceremonies as the glose of the dCanon law: which (with better care of the Popes credit) saith, that Pope Clemens him selfe 3renounced the Papacie, considering that it would be an euill and pernicious thing for the example, that any should choose his owne successour. Into such follies do you 〈…〉 your selues, to say that the blessed Apostle of Christ, S. Peter, did ordeine that, which was pernicious for the example, refused by the Pope, mislyked by the Cardinals, preiudiciall to the Church: and all to maintaine the epistle of Clemens, with the tale in it, that Peter made him his successour. A thing so absurd, that where it is mentioned in ethe Canon law, there is it n••ed to •e 4chaffe: and fContius, a learned lawier of your owne, doth note vpon that note, that it is counted chaffe worthily, 5for it is all counterfeite: and gComestor, the autor of the scholastical historie, who liued when the darkenes of Poperie was grossest, refuteth and reiecteth it as a méere forgerie. But whatsoeuer it •e, and ho• so euer auncient, 〈…〉 the same ⟨p. 272⟩〈…〉⟨p. 273⟩〈…〉⟨p. 274⟩(it may be) which S. hIerom saith, did beare the name of Clemens, and was reproued by olde writers, but be it, what you wil: you confesse your selfe that to be vntrue, for proofe wherof you cited it, that Clemens succeeded Peter, and not Linus. Wherefore, séeing Linus did succéede Peter, & that while Peter liued, in the same sort as Zachaeus did (you say) at Caesarea, & Euodius at Antioche: the Bishops of Antioche, & of Caesarea, may claime as well the Papacy by Peters succession, as may the Bishop of Rome.
cSacrar. cer• mon. Rom. eccles. l. 1. sect. 1.
2Huiusmodi denominationis formam graviter in futurum ecclesiae posse nocere.Huiusmodi denominationis formam grauiter in futurum ecclesiae posse nocere.
dc. Si Petrus •. q. 1. in glossa.
3Renunciavit Papatui, videns quód esset perniciosum exemplo quod aliquis sibi eligeret successorem.Renunciauit Papatui, videns quód esset perniciosum exemplo quod aliquis sibi eligeret successorem.
ec. un•e. 8. q. 1.c. vn•e. 8. q. 1.
4Palea.
fIn annotat. ad c. unde 8. q. 1.In annotat. ad c. vnde 8. q. 1.
5Nam tota est commentitia.
gPetr. Comest. histor. scholast. in Act. Apollo. cap. 101.Petr. Comest. histor. scholast. in Act. Apol•. cap. 101.
hDe scriptorib. eccles. verbo Clemens.De scriptorib. eccles. verbo C•emens.
Hart. Yet by your own grant and the consent of histories, Linus who succeeded him in Rome, did out-live him. And therefore he was the successor of Peter, not only while Peter was alive yet, but when he was deceased also.
Hart. Yet by your owne graunt and the consent of histories, Linus who succéeded him in Rome, did out-liue him. And therefore he was the successour of Peter, not onely while Peter was aliue yet, but when he was deceased also.
Hart. Of that I conclude the Bishop of Romes supremacy, and convince you of error. For Peter had charge of all the Church of Christ. But the Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter. The Bishop of Rome therefore hath charge of all the Church of Christ.
Hart. Of that I conclude the Bishop of Romes supremacy, and conuince you of errour. For Peter had charge of all the Church of Christ. But the Bishop of Rome is the successour of Peter. The Bishop of Rome therefore hath charge of all the Church of Christ.
Rainoldes. As if you should say: iSolomon did reign over all Israel. But kRehoboam, Solomons son, was his successor. Rehoboam therefore reigned over all Israel. Whereby you might convince the scripture of error, for saying that lJeroboam was king over all Israel, and none did follow Rehoboam, but the tribe of Judah only.
Rainoldes. As if you should say: iSalomon did raigne ouer all Israell. But kRoboam, Salomons sonne, was his successour. Roboam therefore raigned ouer all Israell. Whereby you might conuince the scripture of errour, for saying that lIeroboam was king ouer all Israell, and none did folow Roboam, but the tribe of Iuda onely.
Rainoldes. But what is that to my reason? For points in a similitude are bound to hold no further, then that, wherein they are resembled. Else you might add too, that the Pope is liker to Jeroboam then to Rehoboam, because of his mgolden gods: and therefore should be king rather of all Christendom, then of the province of Rome only. But if your cavil please you against that reason: hear an other. The Apostles of Christ had charge of all nations. All Bishops are successors of the Apostles. Therefore all Bishops have charge of all nations. Will you reply now that men revolt from Bishops: but they have right to be Popes, as being heirs of the Apostles?
Rainoldes. But what is that to my reason? For pointes in a similitude are bound to hold no farder, then that, wherein they are resembled. Els you might adde too, that the Pope is liker to Ieroboam then to Roboam, because of his mgolden gods: and therefore should be king rather of all Christendome, then of the prouince of Rome onely. But if your cauill please you against that reason: heare an other. The Apostles of Christ had charge of all nations. All Bishops are successours of the Apostles. Therefore all Bishops haue charge of all nations. Will you reply now that men reuolt from Bishops: but they haue right to be Popes, as being heires of the Apostles?
Hart. No: For though all Bishops succeed the Apostles, ⟨p. 275⟩as S. nJerome saith well, & it is true: yet they succeed them not in their whole right. They succeed them in the kind of charge, oto preach the Gospel: but not in the ampleness, to preach it unto every creature. They succeed the Apostles, but not in the Apostleship. For of the Apostleship there is no succession, as D. pStapleton showeth.
Hart. No: For though all Bishops succeede the Apostles, ⟨p. 275⟩as S. nIerom saith well, & it is true: yet they succede them not in their whole right. They succeede them in the kind of charge, oto preach the Gospell: but not in the amplenes, to preach it vnto euery creature. They succeede the Apostles, but not in the Apostleship. For of the Apostleship there is no succession, as D. pStapleton sheweth.
Rainoldes. Then he succeedeth not to all the right of Peter. Then how is the supremacy proved by this succession? Then the Pope usurpeth, who will be the Apostles successor in the Apostleship. For he calleth his office qthe office of the Apostleship; and things which he doth hear, rhis Apostleship doth hear them; and in his prohibitions, he willeth weighty matters sto be referred to his Apostleship; and in his usual style, the style of the Court of Rome, his 4letters, his udecrees, his xmandates and precepts are called Apostolic, and all Apostolic, that toucheth him; the Apostolic yBull, the Apostolic zseal, the Apostolic amessenger, Apostolic bpalace, cchamber, dchancery, Apostolic eLegate, Apostolic fpardon, Apostolic gauthority, Apostolic hdispensation; and what not? Wherein we have an other of your spiritual cozenages, as kindly as *the former, wherein you clad the Pope with the name of Peter. Nay, this doth pass that. For, in that, he cometh forth with the spoils of Peter, one Apostle: in this, of more then one. For Bishops, in their ioath of fealty to the Pope, are sworn 1to visit yearly the Court of the Apostles, that is, of the Pope; 2unless they be dispensed withal by the Apostles, that is, by the Pope.
Rainoldes. Then he succéedeth not to all the right of Peter. Then how is the supremacie proued by this succession? Then the Pope vsurpeth, who will be the Apostles successor in the Apostleship. For he calleth his office qthe office of the Apostleship; and things which he doth heare, rhis Apostleship doth heare them; and in his prohibitions, he willeth weightie matters sto be referred to his Apostleship; and in his vsuall style, the style of the Court of Rome, his 4letters, his udecrees, his xmandates and precepts are called Apostolike, and all Apostolike, that toucheth him; the Apostolike yBull, the Apostolike zseale, the Apostolike amessenger, Apostolike bpalace, cchamber, dchauncerie, Apostolike eLegate, Apostolike fpardon, Apostolike gauthoritie, Apostolike hdispensation; and what not? Wherein we haue an other of your spirituall coosinages, as kindly as *the former, wherein you clad the Pope with the name of Peter. Nay, this doth passe that. For, in that, hee cometh forth with the spoiles of Peter, one Apostle: in this, of more then one. For Bishops, in their
qIn praefatione Clementinarum.
rc. a• Apostolatus. extravag. Joh. 22. de concession. praebend. de privil.c. a• Apostolatus. extrauag. Ioh. 22. de concession. praebend. de priuil.
Hart. You need not think this kind of speeches so disorderly. For S. Bernard useth them, or the like unto them. Yea, kthe very title of the Apostleship is given to the Pope by him.
Hart. You neede not think this kinde of speeches so disorderly. For S. Bernard vseth them, or the like vnto them. Yea, kthe very title of the Apostleship is giuen to the Pope by him.
Rainoldes. S. Bernard was a worthy man, in *that corrupt age, in which he lived. But your selves have a proverb, that lBernard saw not all things. Yet he saw many more, then you can well brook: and msome wherein the Pope succeedeth Constantine, not Peter; nsome wherein he succeedeth neither. That he saw the filth of the Papacy but in part: it may be imputed […] ⟨p. 278⟩never had himself you• Popes supremacy, the right of the heavenly and of the earthly kingdom, the princehood both in temporal and spiritual things. Such power neither the scriptures nor Fathers give to Peter. But what are the scriptures which the Fathers allege?
Rainoldes. S. Bernard was a worthy man, in *that corrupt age, in which he liued. But your selues haue a prouerbe, that lBernard saw not all thinges. Yet he saw many more, then you can well brooke: and msome wherein the Pope succeedeth Constantine, not Peter; nsome wherein he succéedeth neither. That he saw the filth of the Papacie but in part: it may be imputed 〈…〉⟨p. 278⟩neuer had himselfe you• Popes supremacie, the right of the heauenly and of the earthly kingdome, the princehood both in temporall and spirituall things. Such power neither the scriptures nor Fathers giue to Peter. But what are the scriptures which the Fathers alleage?
*About the year. 1140.About the yeare. 1140.
lBernardus no• vidit omnia.
mBernard. de consid. ad Eugen. lib. 4.Bernard. de cōsid. ad Eugen. lib. 4.
Hart. How far the supremacy of Peter did reach in earthly things and heavenly, spiritual and temporal: I will not reason now. But *the ancient Fathers allege the same scriptures to prove that his supremacy came to his successors in the Church of Rome, which I alleged before to prove his right to the supremacy. For, that the promise in the sixteenth of Matthew, upon this rock I will build my Church, and so forth, is verified in the See of Rome, S. bAugustin teacheth: Number (saith he) the Priests even from the very seat of Peter, and in that rank of fathers mark who succeeded whom: that is the rock against which the proud gates of hell prevail not. And, that the performance of the said promise in the last of John, Feed my sheep, pertaineth also to the Pope, S. cChrysostom is witness, avouching expressly, that Christ did commit his sheep to be fed both unto Peter, and to Peters successors. Which to be likewise meant by those words in the two and twentieth of Luke, I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not, and thou being converted strengthen thy brethren: dPope Marcus in his decretal epistle to Athanasius, Pope Lucius in his decretal epistle to the demands of French and Spanish Bishops, Pope Felix in his decretal epistle to Benignus, have manifestly taught.
Hart. How farre the supremacie of Peter did reach in earthly things and heauenly, spirituall and temporall: I will not reason now. But *the auncient Fathers alleage the same scriptures to proue that his supremacie came to his successors in the Church of Rome, which I alleaged before to proue his right to the supremacie. For, that the promise in the sixtéenth of Matthew, vpon this rocke I will build my Church, and so forth, is verified in the Sée of Rome, S. bAugustin teacheth: Number (saith hee) the Priestes euen from the verie seate of Peter, and in that ranke of fathers marke who succeeded whom: that is the rock against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not. And, that the performance of the said promise in the last of Iohn, Feede my sheep, perteineth also to the Pope, S. cChrysostome is witnesse, auouching expressely, that Christ did commit his sheepe to bee fedde both vnto Peter, and to Peters successours. Which to bee likewise meant by those words in the two and twentéeth of Luke, I haue praied for thee that thy faith faile not, and thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren: dPope Marcus in his decretall epistle to Athanasius, Pope Lucius in his decretal epistle to the demands of French and Spanish Bishops, Pope Felix in his decretall epistle to Benignus, haue manifestly taught.
Rainoldes. Nettles amongst roses, when you set the bastard authors of these decretals amongst the ancient Fathers. But tell me in good sooth: think you that every Pope must deny Christ?
Rainoldes. Nettles amongst roses, when you set the bastard autours of these decretals amongst the auncient Fathers. But tel me in good sooth: thinke you that euerie Pope must denie Christ?
