The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. He meant all Bishops: not all the Bishops of one Church, but the Bishops of all Churches. Which is evident by his words, and the intent whereto he spake them. For to stir up Basil, and make him glad and willing to do the office of a Bishop, which he had undertaken, he telleth him, that Christ when he said to Peter, Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep, did thereby show how deer his sheep are unto him, and therefore would surely give great reward to Pastors who feed them, and guide them. For why did he shed his own blood, (saith Chrysostom) but even to purchase those sheep, the care of whom he committed to Peter and to Peters successors. Whereupon he goeth forward, and declareth what that charge is, which Christ gave to Peter and to all Pastors by that commission Feed my sheep. So that both the course of Chrysostom• speech, and the drift of his reason, and the person whom it implieth, S. Basil, Bishop, not of Rome, but of Caesarea, do manifestly show, that he meant, by naming [the successors of Peter] all Pastors of the flock, all Bishops of the Church of Christ. And this is so clear, that qFather Robert himself (in his Roman Lectures) doth not only grant it, but also prove it by two reasons: one, out of r
Leo, that Peter is an example and as it were a pattern, the which all Pastors ought to follow. How much the more shameful is the ignorance
⟨p. 281⟩
of your Doctors, if they knew it not; the wilfulness, if they knew it: who bear men in hand that Chrysostom doth prove the Popes supremacy by those successors. Wherein the oversight
they, amongst many sentences of the Fathers, the worst of them as fit as this to prove the Papacy, do set out this as the best; and triumph of it, as of a peerless proof, by giving it a special note in the margin:
Note, (say they,) to Peter, & to Peters successors. Note it, say the Jesuits. In deed it is a point well worth the noting, that you do so notoriously abuse the Church of Christ.
Rainoldes. He meant all Bishops: not all ye Bishops of one Church, but the Bishops of all Churches. Which is euident by his wordes, and the entent whereto he spake them. For to stirre vp Basil, and make him glad and willing to doo the office of a Bishop, which he had vndertaken, he telleth him, that Christ when he saide to Peter, Dost thou loue me? Feede my sheepe, did thereby shew how deere his sheepe are vnto him, and therefore would surely giue great rewarde to Pastors who feede them, and guide them. For why did he shed his owne blood, (saith Chrysostome) but euē to purchase those sheepe, the care of whom he committed to Peter and to Peters successours. Whereupon he goeth forward, and declareth what that charge is, which Christ gaue to Peter and to all Pastors by that commission Feede my sheepe. So that both the course of Chrysostom• spéech, and the drift of his reason, and the person whom it implyeth, S. Basil, Bishop, not of Rome, but of Caesarea, doo manifestly shew, that he meant, by naming [the successours of Peter] all Pastors of the flocke, al Bishops of the Church of Christ. And this is so cléere, that qFather Robert himselfe (in his Romane Lectures) doth not only graunt it, but also proue it by two reasons: one, out of rAustin, that Peter was a figure of the Church, that is to say, he represented all Pastours, when Christ said to him, feede my sheepe: an other, out of sLeo, that Peter is an example and as it were a paterne, the which all Pastors ought to folow. How much the more shamefull is the ignorance ⟨p. 281⟩of your Doctors, if they knew it not; the wilfulnes, if they knew it: who beare men in hand that Chrysostome doth proue the Popes supremacie by those successours. Wherin the ouersight *of your Rhemists is great: but a paire of Iesuites, Cani•ius and Busaeus, doo go beyond their felowes. For tthey, amongst many sentences of the Fathers, the woorst of them as fit as this to proue the Papacie, doo set out this as the best; and triumph of it, as of a péerelesse proofe, by giuing it a speciall note in the margent: *Note, (say they,) to Peter, & to Peters successours. Note it, say the Iesuites. In déede it is a point well worth the noting, that you doo so notoriously abuse the Church of Christ.
qRob. Bellarmin. contr. 4. quaest. 3.
rDe agone Christian. c. 30
sSerm. 3. in an•iversar. assump•ionis su•.Serm. 3. in an•iuersar. assump•ionis su•.
*Who allege it, and urge i• as very forcible to that purpose: in their Annotat. on Joh. 21.17.Who alleage it, and vrge i• as very forcible to that purpose: in their Annotat. on Ioh. 21.17.
tIn opere Catechistico Petri Canisij edito a Busae o. de praeceptis eccles. art. 9.
*Nota•tum Petro, tum succes soribus curam ovium commissam.Nota•tum Petro, tum succes soribus curam ouium commissam.
For you persuade the simple, and chiefly young scholars who trust your common-place-books, that Chrysostom spake of Peter and Peters successors, in the same meaning that the Pope doth, when he usaith that Peter and Peters successor is the head of the Church; and xbindeth men by solemn oath to be obedient to the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter. Whereas S. Chrysostom meant by Peters successors, all them whom Christ doth put in trust to feed his sheep: as ythe Master of the sentences, and zThomas of Aquine do give the name of Peters successors to all Priests & Prelates (as they term them,) that is, to all Pastors & Doctors of the Church: as S. aAustin teacheth that it is said to all when it is said to Peter, Dost thou love me? Feed my sheep: as S. bAmbrose writeth that he and all Bishops have received the charge of the sheep with Peter: as cthe Roman clergy apply it to the rest of the disciples of Christ, & to the clergy of Carthage too. Such invincible reasons you fetch out of the Fathers for the Roman Papacy: by which every Bishop may claim as much above the Roman, as may the Roman above any.
For you perswade the simple, and chiefly young scholers who trust your common-place-bookes, that Chrysostome spake of Peter and Peters successours, in the same meaning that the Pope doth, when he usaith that Peter and Peters successour is the head of the Church; and xbindeth men by solemne oth to be obedient to the Bishop of Rome, the successour of Peter. Whereas S. Chrysostome meant by Peters successours, all them whom Christ doth put in trust to feede his sheepe: as ythe Maister of the sentences, and zThomas of Aquine doo giue the name of Peters successours to all Priestes & Prelates (as they terme them,) that is, to all Pastors & Doctors of the Church: as S. aAustin teacheth that it is said to all when it is said to Peter, Dost thou loue me? Feede my sheepe: as S. bAmbrose writeth that he and all Bishops haue receiued the charge of the sheepe with Peter: as cthe Roman clergie apply it to the rest of the disciples of Christ, & to the clergie of Carthage too. Such inuincible reasons you fetch out of the Fathers for the Roman Papacy: by which euery Bishop may claime as much aboue the Roman, as may the Roman aboue any.
uPope Boniface the eighth▪ c. una sanctam. extra. de maioritat. & obedientia.Pope Boniface the eighth▪ c. vna sanctam. extra. de maioritat. & obedientia.
xPope Pius the fourth. In bulla super Norma juramenti prosessionis fidei.Pope Pius the fourth. In bulla super •orma iuramenti prosessionis fidei.
Hart. In deed, to feed the sheep is common after a sort to the Pastors of all Churches. But in many Churches the faith of Pastors hath failed. Wherefore Christs prayer for the faith of Peter, that it should not fail, is not common to them all. Only the Bishops of the Church of Rome have never failed in faith. By the which event of things it is plain, that Christ made that prayer for Peters successors in the See of Rome: and so did establish them over all, in charging them to strengthen ⟨p. 282⟩their brethren.
Hart. In déede, to feede the sheepe is common after a sorte to the Pastors of all Churches. But in many Churches the faith of Pastors hath failed. Wherefore Christes prayer for the faith of Peter, that it should not faile, is not common to them all. Onely the Bishops of the Church of Rome haue neuer failed in faith. By the which euent of thinges it is plaine, that Christ made that prayer for Peters successours in the See of Rome: and so did establish them ouer al, in charging them to strengthen ⟨p. 282⟩their brethren.
Rainoldes. Away with that [perhaps:] for all the world knoweth they have not. Yea seven hundred years ago, not to speak of later times, wherein their power and wealth have kindled sparks of greater licence, and loosed the reins unto their lusts, but seven hundred years ago, when they were yet of meaner estate, the proof hereof was famous by sundry of their lives succeeding one another: Formosus, Boniface, Stephen, Romanus, Theodore, John the ninth, and a little after them, Christopher, and Sergius. Of whom their own friends and favourers do write that fthey were gone from Peters steppes, that gthey did get his See by bribery, that they were hmom strous men, or rather ibeasts and monsters. Amongst whom, the 1first was accursed by a Pope, and made himself Pope by perjury. The 2second would (but that he was prevented by death;) the 3third did repeal the decrees of the first, and condemn his acts: the 4fourth condemned the third, and justified the first: the 5fifth did keep the same race: the 6sixth confirmed it by a Council: the 8last, for all the Council and the Popes allowing it, restored the third to his credit, and again condemned the first. *Thus were Peters successors whirled about with giddiness, as kKrantzius speaketh of them: and the head of the Church was long without a brain. A thing very strange, and such as (I think) hath scarce been heard off amongst the Barbarians: that lone of these successors, did take up the carcass of mhis predecessor out of his grave, brought it into judgement before a Council of Bishops, spoiled it of his Papal robes, clad it with a lay-mans garments, indited it, arraigned it, condemned it, ncut off three fingers of it, and cast it into the stream of Tiber. Yet this Pope might have been a Saint of the Popes, in comparison of oJohn the ⟨p. 283⟩twelfth. For he did show more cruelty upon the bodies of many living; then the other, of one dead: and the other excelled not so much in one vice, as John the twelfth in all, in ungodliness, unrighteousness, intemperance, pride, in whoredoms, adulteries, incests, murders, in perjuries, simony, sacrileges, blasphemies, and such abominations as I abhor to mention. Not Catiline, not Nero, not Heliogabalus, not the most monstrous wretches that ever lived in Rome, came near unto him.
Rainoldes. Away with that [perhaps:] for all the world knoweth they haue not. Yea seuen hundred yeares ago, not to speake of later times, wherein their power and wealth haue kindled sparkes of greater licence, and loosed the reines vnto their lustes, but seuen hundred yeres ago, when they were yet of meaner estate, the proofe hereof was famous by sundrie of their liues succeeding one another: Formosus, Boniface, Stephen, Romanus, Theodore, Iohn the ninth, and a litle after them, Christopher, and Sergius. Of whom their owne friendes and fauorers doo write that fthey were gone from Peters steppes, that gthey did get his See by briberie, that they were hmō strous men, or rather ibeastes and monsters. Amongst whom, the 1first was accursed by a Pope, and made himselfe Pope by periurie. The 2second would (but that he was preuented by death;) the 3third did repeale the decrées of the first, and condemne his actes: the 4fourth condemned the third, and iustified the first: the 5fifth did keepe the same race: the 6sixth confirmed it by a Councell: the 8last, for all the Councell and the Popes allowing it, restored the third to his credit, and againe cō demned the first. *Thus were Peters successors whirled about with giddinesse, as kKrantzius speaketh of them: and the head of the Church was long without a braine. A thing verie straunge, and such as (I thinke) hath scarce béene heard off amongst the Barbarians: that
It were incredible that one carrion should have so much, so horrible filth, but that his own Church and the Italian Bishops (in a Council assembled by the Emperor Otho) did charge him with these things, and with things more villainous and outrageous then these. And himself, when the Emperor and Council wrote unto him, that he should come to make his answer, made this answer to them, and other he would make none, that he cursed them all to hell if they attempted to deprive him, as he heard say they did. Luitprandus, a deacon of a Church in Italy, pa man commended for his holiness, who lived at the same time, qdoth write this story of Pope John; and that with such credit, that beside rMartinus, sTritemius, tPlatina, uKrantzius, and xothers, men of your own religion, who write the sum of it after him: Sigonius (an Italian, yto whom your Pope giveth almost a thousand crowns yearly to read in one of his Universities,) though he dissemble much, in his Italian history, the things that touch the Popes state; yet zhe acknowledgeth this, and writeth it somewhat fully. Now (I hope) you will not say of this Pope, Pope John the twelfth, that perhaps he showed his faith by his works: or if you would say that he showed his faith (as it may be he did,) yet you will not say that it was such a faith, as was the faith of Peter for which our Saviour prayed. For, if you think here, that notwithstanding all these crimes he might be good after, as Peter repented when he had denied Christ, and so his faith did not fail, though it did faint: then I must tell you further, that Pope John went forward as he had begun, and his death was answerable unto his life. aWhile he was committing adultery▪ he was slain: whether bthrust through by some who took him in the act, or cstricken by the devil; historians agree not. But dCardinal Turrecremata doth take that as more likely, which is ⟨p. 284⟩more dreadful. Because the life (saith he) of Pope John was detestable, and marvellous offensive to the Christian people: therefore Christ himself gave out the sentence of condemnation against him. For, while he was abusing a certain mans wife, the Devil struck him suddenly, and so he died without repentance.
It were incredible that one caraine should haue so much, so horrible filth, but that his owne Church and the Italian Bishops (in a Councell assembled by the Emperour Otho) did charge him with these thinges, and with thinges more vilanous and outragious then these. And himselfe, when the Emperour and Councell wrote vnto him, that he should come to make his answere, made this answere to them, and other he would make none, that hee cursed them all to hell if they attempted to depriue him, as hée heard say they did. Luitprandus, a deacon of a Church in Italie, pa man commended for his holines, who liued at the same time, qdoth write this storie of Pope Iohn; and that with such credit, that beside rMartinus, sTritemius, tPlatina, uKrātzius, and xothers, men of your owne religion, who write the summe of it after him: Sigonius (an Italian, yto whom your Pope giueth almost a thousand crownes yearely to reade in one of his Uniuersities,) though he dissemble much, in his Italian historie, the thinges that touch the Popes state; yet zhe acknowledgeth this, and writeth it somewhatfully. Now (I hope) you will not say of this Pope, Pope Iohn the twelfth, that perhaps he shewed his faith by his workes: or if you would say that he shewed his faith (as it may be he did,) yet you will not say that it was such a faith, as was the faith of Peter for which our Sauiour prayed. For, if you thinke here, that notwithstanding all these crimes he might be good after, as Peter repēted when he had denyed Christ, and so his faith did not faile, though it did fainte: then I must tell you further, that Pope Iohn went forwarde as he had begoon, and his death was answerable vnto his life. aWhile he was committing adulterie▪ he was slaine: whether
pPlatina in vita Stephani quint.
qHistor. re•ū per Europam gesta•um l. 6. c. 6. & 7. & 8. & 10Histor. re•ū per Europam gesta•um l. 6. c. 6. & 7. & 8. & 10
rMartin. Polon. in supput. Pont.
sIn Chronic. monast. Hirsau.
tin Johann. decimo tert.in Iohann. decimo tert.
uSaxon. l. 4. c. 9. & Metrop. l. 3. c. 1.
xSigibertus in Chronic. Blondus decad. 2. lib. 3.
yThe discovery of Nicols, part. 2.The discouery of Nicols, part. 2.
zSigon. de regno Italiae lib. 7.
aAlb. Krantz. Metrop. l. 5 c. 1.
bPlatina in vita Johan. decimi tert. Blondus decad 2. lib. 3.Platina in vita Iohan. decimi tert. Blondus decad 2. lib. 3.
cLuitpr•nd. Ticin. l. 6. c. 11. Sigibert. in Chron. Tritem. in Chron. monast. Hirsaug.
Hart. What if Pope John, and some others of them, offended in their lives? Yet their faith failed not, that faith which Christ spake off. For by the name of [faith] he meant the doctrine of faith, which he prayed for Peter and so for his successors that they might keep sound, and never be seduced from it to any heresy. No more was Pope John, nor any other of the Popes: though in their lives they were not all of the best.
Hart. What if Pope Iohn, and some others of them, offended in their liues? Yet their faith failed not, that faith which Christ spake off. For by the name of [faith] he meant the doctrine of faith, which he prayed for Peter and so for his successours that they might kéepe sound, and neuer be seduced from it to any heresie. No more was Pope Iohn, nor any other of the Popes: though in their liues they were not all of the best.
Rainoldes. I thought that Christ had meant by the name of [faith] a lively Christian faith: which eembraceth the promise of the mercy of God; which fworketh by love, and bringeth forth the fruits of faith; which gwhosoever have, they have assurance of everlasting life. But you think belike that he meant a dead faith: a faith, which they have of whom hit is written, the Devils believe, and tremble; a faith, which Pope John might have, and be a reprobate, and dye without repentance, and be the heir of death eternal.
Rainoldes. I thought that Christ had meant by the name of [faith] a liuely Christian faith: which eimbraceth the promise of the mercie of God; which fworketh by loue, and bringeth forth the fruites of faith; which gwhosoeuer haue, they haue assurance of euerlasting life. But you thinke belike that he meant a dead faith: a faith, which they haue of whom hit is writen, the Diuels beleeue, and tremble; a faith, which Pope Iohn might haue, and be a reprobate, and dye without repentance, and be the heire of death eternall.
Hart. I say not that Christ meant a dead faith, but the right faith: that is, as I said, the true and Catholic doctrine of the faith of Christ. As the scripture useth that word, where it is written, that iin the later times some shall depart from the faith, and shall give heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of Devils. The doctrines of Devils are heresies whatsoever. The faith is the true doctrine set against heresies. S. Pe•er held this faith when he said, kThou art Christ, the Son of the living God. From this faith the devil would have removed him. But Christ prayed for him that it should not fail. And so I say he prayed for the Bishops of Rome, that it should fail in none of them.
Hart. I say not that Christ meant a dead faith, but the right faith: that is, as I saide, the true and Catholike doctrine of the faith of Christ. As the scripture vseth that worde, where it is writen, that iin the later times some shall depart from the faith, and shall giue heede to spirites of errour, and doctrines of Diuels. The doctrines of Diuels are heresies whatsoeuer. The faith is the true doctrine set against heresies. S. Pe•er held this faith when he saide, kThou art Christ, the Sonne of the liuing God. From this faith the diuell would haue remoued him. But Christ prayed for him that it should not faile. And so I say he prayed for the Bishops of Rome, that it should faile in none of them.
Rainoldes. But this faith is also a faith, which lthe Devils may have, and yet tremble: a faith, which Pope John might have and be a reprobate, and die without repentance, and be the heir of death eternal.
Rainoldes. But this faith is also a faith, which lthe Deuils may haue, and yet tremble: a faith, which Pope Iohn might haue and be a reprobate, and die without repentance, and be the heire of death eternall.
his predecessour out of his graue, brought it into iudgement before a Councell of Bishops, spoyled it of his Papall roabes, clad it with a lay-mans garmentes, endited it, arraigned it, condemned it,
twelfth. For he did shew more crueltie vpon the bodies of many liuing; then the other, of one dead: and the other excelled not so much in one vice, as Iohn the twelfth in all, in vngodlinesse, vnrighteousnesse, intemperance, pride, in whooredomes, adulteri•s, incestes, murders, in periuries, simonie, sacrileges, blasphemies, and such abominations as I abhorre to mention. Not Catiline, not Nero, not Heliogabalus, not ye most monstrous wretches that euer liued in Rome, came néere vnto him.
nLui•prand. ••cin. l. 1. c. 8. where he ascribeth it to Sergius, because they were of Sergius faction whose ministry Stephen did use in it: Sigon. lib. 6. •ergiani.Lui•prand. ••cin. l. 1. c. 8. where he ascribeth it to Sergius, because they were of Sergius faction whose ministerie Stephen did vse in it: Sigon. lib. 6. •ergiani.
owhom Platina calleth John the thirteenth.whom Platina calleth Iohn the thirteenth.
Cardinall Turrecremata doth take that as more likely, which is
⟨p. 284⟩
more dreadfull. Because the life (saith he) of Pope Iohn was detestable, and marueilous offensiue to the Christian people: therefore Christ himselfe gaue out the sentence of condemnation against him. For, while he was abusing a certaine mans wife, the Diuell strooke him sodenly, and so he died without repentance.
