The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. I marvel what you mean to take us up so sharply, as for a heinous matter, that we call the Pope, head of the church: whereas you give that title your selves to the Queen whom it may less agree to. So one that preached to us h•re not long ago in the Tower-chapel, did make a long talk to prove that Christ only is head of the church, and charged us with blasphemy, for saying that the Pope is head: & yet him self praying for the Queens majesty did name her supreme head of the church of England: wherein we smiled at his folly. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Queen head: why should it be blasphemy to call the Pope head?
Hart. I maruell what you meane to take vs vp so sharply, as for a heinous matter, that we call the Pope, head of the church: whereas you giue that title your selues to the Quéene whom it may lesse agrée to. So one that preached to vs h•re not long agoe in the Tower-chappell, did make a long talke to proue that Christ onely is head of the church, and charged vs with blasphemy, for saying that the Pope is head: & yet him selfe praying for the Quéenes maiesty did name her supreme head of the church of England: wherin we smiled at his folly. For if it be no blasphemy to call the Quéene head: why should it bée blasphemy to call the Pope head?
Rainoldes. We give unto her Highness the title, not of head, but of qSupreme governor: and that upon how just ground of Gods word, and high commission from the highest, it shall in ⟨p. 53⟩*due place be showed if you will. As for the Preacher, whom you mention: I had rather you would deal with me by public monuments and writings of our church, as I do with you, then by reports of private speeches: for perhaps you fancied more then he said: perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fancy. But if your report of his Sermon be true, it is likely that he gave the name of head to the Queen in the same meaning that we do the title of supreme governor, which I will prove to be godly: and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning, in which that name belongeth unto Christ alone, condemning them of blasphemy who give it him so. And they, who did smile hereat, as at folly, because they were Papists, might, if they were Paynims, smile at the scriptures too: which do give the title of
Mercurius and Jupiter Gods? Is not this your reason? But our doctrine as it is holy and true, so it is plain: if men will rather learn it humbly, as Christians, then laugh at it as Lucians, or, as Julians, revolt from it. For we teach
that Christ is the head of the church, as he doth quicken it with his spirit, as he is the light, the health, the life of it: and is present always to fill it with his blessings, and with his grace to govern it. In the which respects, because
the Scripture giveth the name of head to Christ alone, by an excellency: thereof we so conclude, that he is the only head of the church. For otherwise, we know, that (in an other kind and degree of resemblance) they may be called heads, who have any preeminence of place or government over others. As in the Hebrew text we read
Gregory, when he had named our Saviour Christ the head of the universal church, he calleth Christs ministers as it were heads:
Rainoldes. We giue vnto her Highnes ye title, not of head, but of qSupreme gouernour: and that vpon how iust grounde of Gods word, and high commission from the highest, it shall in ⟨p. 53⟩*due place be shewed if you will. As for the Preacher, whom you mention: I had rather you would deale with me by publike monuments and writings of our church, as I doe with you, then by reports of priuate spéeches: for perhaps you fansied more then he said: perhaps he said so much that you were glad to smile it out with that fansie. But if your report of his Sermon be true, it is likely that he gaue the name of head to the Quéene in the same meaning that we doe the title of supreme gouernour, which I will proue to be godly: and he denied the Pope to be head in an other meaning, in which that name belongeth vnto Christ alone, condemning them of blasphemy who giue it him so. And they, who did smile hereat, as at folly, because they were Papists, might, if they were Painims, smile at the scriptures too: which doe giue the title of 3Gods vnto gouernors, and yet condemne them who haue sother Gods beside the Lord. For if it be, no blasphemy to call the Magistrates Gods: why should it bée blasphemy to call tMercurius and Iupiter Gods? Is not this your reason? But our doctrine as it is holy and true, so it is plaine: if men will rather learne it humbly, as Christians, then laugh at it as Lucians, or, as Iulians, reuolt from it. For wée teach uthat Christ is the head of the church, as hee doth quicken it with his spirite, as he is the light, the health, the life of it: and is present alwayes to fill it with his blessinges, and with his grace to gouerne it. In the which respects, because xthe Scripture giueth the name of head to Christ alone, by an excellency: thereof we so conclude, that he is the onely head of the church. For otherwise, we know, that (in an other kinde and degrée of resemblance) they may be called heads, who haue any preeminence of place or gouernment ouer others. As in the Hebrue text we reade ythe heads of the Leuites, for the chéefe of them: and, zthe priest the head, that is to say, the chiefe Priest. After the which sort, I will not contend, if you entitle Bishops heads of the churches, as aAthanasius doth: and bGregorie, when he had named our Sauiour Christ the head of the vniuersall church, hée calleth Christes ministers as it were heads:
qThe oath of the […] li. 5. c. 5.The othe of the 〈…〉 li. 5. c. 5.
Hart. You grant in effect, as much as I require. For, if either Bishop or Cardinal have given that unto the Pope, ⟨p. 54⟩which is due to Christ, as he is head properly: we maintain them not. Uve say that as pastors, all who have the charge to govern the church, are heads after a sort, that is improperly, as I termed it: so the Pope, who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head. And in this sense you must take us, when we do entitle 1the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church.
Hart. You graunt in effect, as much as I require. For, if either Bishoppe or Cardinall haue giuen that vnto the Pope, ⟨p. 54⟩which is due to Christ, as he is head properlie: wée maintaine them not. UUe say that as pastors, all who haue the charge to gouerne the church, are heads after a sort, that is improperly, as I termed it: so the Pope, who is the chiefest of them all is the supreme head. And in this sense you must take vs, when we do entitle 1the Bishop of Rome the supreme head of the church.
1Stapleton. in dedicat. prin cipiorum fid. doctrine. Gregor. de•imo tertio, Pon. Opt. Max.Stapleton. in dedicat. prin cipiorum fid. doctrin. Gregor. de•imo tertio, Pon. Opt. Max.
Rainoldes. I will take you so. Howbeit, for as much as the name of head hath sundry significations in this kind of speeches as the scripture showeth, 1God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of the woman; 2the head of Syria, Damascus; the head of Damascus, Retzin; the king, 3the head of the tribes of Israel; and 4the heads of households, the eldest; and 5the head of the people, the foremost; and 6the head of the mountains, the highest; and 7the head of the spices, the chiefest; &, in offenders 8the heads, the principal; and amongst Davids captains, 9the heads, the most excellent, some of the which import a preeminence of other things, not of power, and they that do of power, some import a greater power, some a lesser: I would understand particularly what power you give unto the Pope by calling him supreme head, least afterward we vary about the meaning of it.
Rainoldes. I will take you so. Howbeit, for as much as the name of head hath sundrie significations in this kind of spéeches as the scripture sheweth, 1God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of the woman; 2the head of Syria, Damascus; the head of Damascus, Retzin; the king, 3the head of the tribes of Israel; and 4the heads of housholdes, the eldest; and 5the head of the people, the formost; and 6the head of the mountaines, the highest; and 7the head of the spices, the chiefest; &, in offenders 8the heads, the principall; and amongst Dauids captaines, 9the heads, the most excellent, some of the which import a preeminence of other things, not of power, and they that do of power, some import a greater power, some a lesser: I would vnderstand particularlie what power you giue vnto the Pope by calling him supreme head, least afterward we vary about the meaning of it.
Hart. The power, which we mean to him by this title, is *that the government of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him: in him doth lye the power of judging and determining all causes of faith; of ruling councils, as President, and ratifying their decrees; of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors; of deciding causes brought him by appeals from all the coasts of the earth; of reconciling any that are excommunicate; of excommunicating, suspending, or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend, yea on Princes and nations; finally, of all things of the like sort for governing of the church, even what soever toucheth either preaching of doctrine, or practising of discipline in the church of Christ.
Hart. The power, which we meane to him by this title, is *that the gouernement of the whole church of Christ throughout the world doth depend of him: in him doth lye the power of iudging and determining all causes of faith; of ruling councels, as President, and ratifying their decrées; of ordering and confirming Bishops and pastors; of deciding causes brought him by appeales from all the coastes of the earth; of reconciling any that are excommunicate; of excommunicating, suspending, or inflicting other censures and penalties on any that offend, yea on Princes and nations; finallie, of all things of the like sort for gouerning of the church, euen what soeuer toucheth either preaching of doctrine, or practising of discipline in the church of Christ.
*Staple• princip. doct. lib. 6. in praefat. And herein the Rhe•ish annotations on the new Testament (Mat. 16.•9▪) follow D. •••apleton: as also in the handling of Scriptures and Fathers for this whole matter of the Popes supremacy commonly they […].Staple• princip. doct. lib. 6. in praefat. And herin the Rhe•ish annotations on the new Testament (Mat. 16.•9▪) folow D. •••apleton: as also in the handling of Scriptures and Fathers for this whole matter of the Popes supremacie commonlie they 〈…〉.
Rainoldes. And all this you mean by the Popes supremacy. A power, very great in weight, and large in compass, for one man to wield: yea, for one Apostle, much more for one Bishop. Bishop of Rome is he, or Bishop of the whole world? You said that you call him a head improperly. I ween you give this power improperly to him also. For out of all doubt you can never prove that it belongeth to him properly.
Rainoldes. And all this you meane by the Popes supremacie. A power, verie great in weight, and large in compasse, for one man to wéeld: yea, for one Apostle, much more for one Bishop. Bishop of Rome is he, or Bishop of the whole world? You said that you call him a head improperlie. I wéene you giue this power improperlie to him also. For out of all doubt you can neuer proue that it belongeth to him properlie.
The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacy pretended to be made by Christ unto Peter, 1 in the words, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my church: 2 &, to thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be known, and who shall judge thereof. 3 what is meant by the keys, the power of binding and loosing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles.
The second Chapter. The promise of the supremacie pretended to be made by Christ vnto Peter, 1 in the wordes, Thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke will I build my church: 2 &, to thee wil I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen. Of expounding the scriptures: how the right sense of them may be known, and who shall iudge therof. 3 what is meant by the keyes, the power of binding and loosing, promised by Christ to Peter, and (in Peter) to all the Apostles.
HART. How large and great soever this power and supremacy doth seem in your eyes:1 it belongeth properly to the Bishop of Rome. And that is already proved by the reason which before I made. S. Peter was head of all the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power over Bishops that he had over the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of all Bishops, and by consequent of their dioceses, that is of all the church of Christ.
HART. How large and great soeuer this power and supremacie doth séeme in your eyes:1 it belongeth properlie to the Bishop of Rome. And that is alreadie prooued by the reason which before I made. S. Peter was head of all the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles. The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of all Bishops, and by consequent of their dioceses, that is of all the church of Christ.
Hart. *Christ did say unto him, nTu es Petrus, & super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam: Thou art Peter, and upon this peter will I build my church. Therefore he did promise him.
Hart. *Christ did say vnto him, nTu es Petrus, & super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam: Thou art Peter, and vpon this peter will I build my church. Therefore he did promise him.
Rainoldes. The reason doth not follow. But why do you english it so, Thou art Peter, and upon this peter? oYour doctors were wont to cite it, Thou art Peter, & upon this rock: and to that rock you tied all. Do you fear shipwreck there now?
Rainoldes. The reason doth not folow. But why do you english it so, Thou art Peter, and vpon this peter? oYour doctors were wont to cite it, Thou art Peter, & vpon this rocke: and to that rocke you tyed all. Doo you feare shipwracke there now?
oSanders rock of the church. Bristow Me•tin. 47.Sanders rocke of the church. Bristow Me•tin. 47.
Hart. No sir. But to make our anchor-hold the surer, the which is fastened on S. Peter, Doctor Allen thought good that in the translation of the new testament into our tongue, which we were about at Rhemes, 1it should be thus englished; Thou art ⟨p. 56⟩Peter and upon this peter. The which I rather follow, then the other of the rock, because it is agreeable unto the original.
Hart. No syr. But to make our anker-holde the surer, the which is fastned on S. Peter, Doctor Allen thought good that in the translation of the new testament into our tongue, which wée were about at Rhemes, 1it should be thus englished; Thou art ⟨p. 56⟩Peter and vpon this peter. The which I rather folow, then the other of the rocke, because it is agréeable vnto the originall.
1As in their Annotations on Mat. 16.18. they say it should be by Christs words speaking in the Syriac tongue: yea, and by the meaning of the greek words too. Though they keep the name of rock in their text, because of the latin.As in their Annotations on Mat. 16.18. they say it should be by Christs words speaking in the Syriake tongue: yea, and by the meaning of the greeke wordes too. Though they keepe the name of rocke in their text, because of the latin.
Rainoldes. It is not. For the original is the Greek text: and that hath, [Greek or Hebrew]. whereto your latin old translation agreeth, with Petrus and petra: as your self alleged it. The words of both which though they differ not so much as Peter and rock: yet they are not one, as your Peter and peter.
Rainoldes. It is not. For the originall is the Gréeke text: and that hath, 〈non-Latin alphabet〉. wherto your latin olde translation agreeth, with Petrus and petra: as your selfe alleaged it. The wordes of both which though they differ not so much as Peter and rocke: yet they are not one, as your Peter and peter.
