The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wiseThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise
The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take great pleasure in the reading thereof. Translated out of French into English, by John Brooke of AsheThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe
Pierre Viret 1511–1571London: printed by Thomas East, 1579
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hillarius. But have we not had Anabaptists, which would baptise them selves again, and have condemned 1the baptism of young Infants, willing to defer it until they should come unto the age of discretion?
Hillarius. But haue we not had Anabaptistes, which would baptise them selues againe, and haue co•demned 1the baptisme of young Infants, willing to deferre it vntill they should come vnto the age of discretion?
Theophilus. Let us not doubt, that from the time of Saint Augustine, but that there be many found, more negligent, then they ought to he, touching the sacraments: the which thing hath compelled the ancients to magnify ⟨p. 239⟩them so much. And therefore those which are come after them, not considering the causes wherefore they did the same, have taken the words rawly, without a fit interpretation, and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rhetorically and figuratively, which hath been the cause that they have made Idols, as though the virtue of Jesus Christ, and of the Christian religion were in those visible signs. We cannot deny, but that in the time of those good ancient fathers, many after that they had known the Gospel, tarried not long time to cause 1themselves to be baptised: yea, often times until the latter end of their life. Now they did the same, some through negligence others, because of the opinion that they had, that thorough the baptism, all the sins that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that reason they tarried as long as they could, for to depart out of this world more purer and clean from their sins. But which is worse, some under that hope, did take the greater holdnesse to sin. Whom Chrysostom rebuketh, showing unto them, that peradventure God will not give
them the grace, to have space to be baptised, if they did tarry until the hour of their death, and if they did abuse so the baptism, as he hath seen that it hath happened unto many, who thorough that vain hope & trust, have been deceived. In like manner also hath Basil the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharply those which do so. Even as then the great and old ones have delayed their baptism, it is not to be doubted, but that for these same reasons, they have done the like towards their children. And therefore we must not be abashed, if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptism, for to correct such faults, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and stir up the Christians to give their endeavours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that
Theophilus. Let vs not doubt, that from the time of Saint Augustine, but that there be many founde, more negligent, then they ought to he, touching the sacramēts: the which thing hath cōpelled the aun•ients to magnifie ⟨p. 239⟩them so much. And therefore those which are come after them, not considering the causes wherefore they did ye same, haue taken the wordes rawly, without a fit interpretation, and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely, which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols, as though the vertue of Iesus Christ, and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes. Wée cannot deny, but that in the time of those good auncient fathers, many after that they had knowen the Gospell, tarryed not long time to cause 1themselues to be baptised: yea, often times vntill the latter end of their life. Nowe they did the same, some through negligence others, bicause of the opinion that they had, that thorough the baptisme, all the sinnes that might be in man, were defaced and put out. For that reason they tarryed as long as they could, for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their sinnes. But which is worse, some vnder that hope, did take the greater holdnesse to sinne. Whome Chrisostome rebuketh, shewing vnto them, that peraduenture God wil not giue 2them the grace, to haue space to be baptised, if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death, and if they did abuse so the baptisme, as he hath séene that it hath happened vnto many, who thorough that vaine hope & trust, haue béene deceiued. In like manner also hath Basill the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharpely those which do so. Euen as then the greate and old ones haue delayed their baptisme, it is not to be doubted, but that for these same reasons, they haue done the like towardes their children. And therefore we must not be abashed, if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptisme, for to correct such faultes, negligences and opinions, and the better to incytate and stirre vp the Christians to giue their indeuours in that, as well for them as for their little children. For that 3cause it was auncyently established in the Church, that they shoulde baptise twise in a yeare. That is to say, at ⟨image 246⟩Easter and at Whits••tyde • although that the baptisme 4was permitted at all t••e in case of 〈…〉.
1Baptism delayedBaptism delaied
2Chris•. in epist. ad Hebr. De cons. dist. 4. ca. quando
3To baptise twice in a year.To baptise twice in a yere.
There was yet an other reason, which •ight have given […] unto saint Augustine to speak so. He did see and perceive that many […] infected with the here••e of the Pelagians 1which did not attribute much unto the grace of God, and did […] at all original […], but did greatly magnify the virtues and strengths of men. •or which caus• they had not the baptism in grea•e estimation.
And therefore would •aint Augustine declare the nature of original sin, and induce men to give and 2bear more greater honour unto the sacraments. Then the better for to manifest the same, he declareth how the young infants which have not yet committed any actual sin, are not yet nevertheless without sin worthy of death and eternal damnation, because of their corrupt nature which they have drawn, as from a right inheritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mothers in their conception and nativity. For they have been conceived and borne in sin and in•quitie: and 3can be none others, then such as the sinful beginning, from which they are come. For that which is borne of the ••esh, is flesh: And a wolf cannot engender but 4a young Woolf: a Serpent a young Serpent. And even as we do not leave off or cease to hate a young Woolf, although that he hath not yet eaten any sheep, or a Serpent, notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venom, but do judge him worthy of death, because of the perverse nature that is in them: so ought we to esteem, and think that God hath no less occasion to hate and condemn us, even from our mothers belly, because of our perversity and natural malice engendered with us. And though he should damn us eternally, he should do us no wrong, but only that which our nature meriteth and deserveth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any work, which ⟨p. 240⟩we may Judge to be evil and wicked, sith that he hath not yet the understanding, discretion nor the power to do it, it followeth not therefore, but that the perversity and malice, which is natural in man, hath already his root in him, as one part of his paternal inheritance, the which cannot please God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth her fruits, yet they do remain still there, as in their root, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venom is already in a Serpent, although that he bite not:
There was yet an other reason, which •ight haue giuen 〈…〉 vnto saint Augustine to speake so. He did sée and pe•ce•ue that many 〈…〉 infected with the here••e of the Pelagians 1which did not attribute much vnto the grace of God, and did 〈…〉 at all originall 〈…〉, but did greatly mag••fie the vertues and strengthes of men. •or which caus• they had not the baptisme in grea•e estimation.
And therefore woulde •aint Augustine declare the nature of originall sinne, and induce men to giue and 2beare more greater honour vnto the sacramentes. Then the better for to manifest the same, he declareth howe the young infants which haue not yet committed any a•tuall sinne, are not yet neuerthelesse without sinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation, bicause of their corrupt nature which they haue drawen, as from a right inheritance and proper heritage, of their fathers and mothers in their conception and natiuitie. For they haue béene conceiued and borne in sinne and in•quitie: and 3can be none others, then such as the sinnefull beginning, from which they are come. For that whiche is borne of the ••esh, is flesh: And a wolfe cannot ingender but 4a young Woolfe: a Serpent a young Serpent. And euen as wée doe not leaue off or cease to hate a young Woolfe, although that he hath not yet eaten any shéepe, or a Serpent, notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venym, but do iudge him worthie of death, bicause of the peruerse nature that is in them: so ought we to estéeme, and thinke that God hath no lesse occasion to hate and condempne vs, euen from our mothers bellie, bicause of our per•ersitie and naturall malyce engendred with vs. And though he shoulde dampne vs eternally, he shoulde doe vs no wrong, but onely that which our nature meriteth and deserueth. For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke, which
and the nature of a Woolf, in a young Woolf, how innocent so ever he seemeth to b••.
But from whence do the fruits of the flesh proceed, and the sins which man committeth, when he is of age, but of that vicious root, of that original sin, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Augustine did no wrong, to aggravate that natural corruption, and to say that the infant, from his mothers belly is culpable of e[…] fire, not only the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptism: if he do understand by the baptism the grace and mercy of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated unto the elect: As I think verily, that he did chiefly understand it.
For if he would take it by the rigour, for the exterior baptism, and the material ceremony, I cannot nor may not agree with him: sith that he •lledgeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures, for so prove that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant unto the bounty and grace of GOD, as we have already sufficiently declared: But I esteem and judge rather, that he understandeth by the baptism made in the name of the Father, the Sonn•and of the holy Ghost, the virtue and efficacy and the thing figured by the exterior Baptism, which is the true sign and witness of him, which is spiritual and interior, as the sign and exterior ceremony, by the which yet nevertheless, he signifieth and comprehendeth all the virtue ⟨image 247⟩of the baptism of Jesus Christ, after the manner, as the holy scripture hath accustomed to use. For in the same 1the sign & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured, comprehending the whole for part because that the scripture addresseth it unto the faithful, which do not receive the sacraments in vain, and without a spiritual meaning: Therefore the Apostle saith: All ye that are baptised have put on Christ. And yet nevertheless, Simon the Magician was baptised outwardly 2by Philip, and yet I do not believe that ever he did put on Christ, sith that he did not truly believe.
and the nature of a Woolfe, in a young Woolfe, howe innocent so euer he seemeth to b••.
But from whence doe the fruites of the fleshe procéede, and the sinnes which man committeth, when hée is of age, but of that vicious roote, of that originall sinne, and corrupt nature? Then Saint Augustine did no wronge, to aggrauate that natural corruption, and to say that the infant, from his mothers belly is culpable of e〈…〉 fire, not onely the men that are of age, if they do dye without baptisme: if he doe vnderstande by the baptisme the grace and mercie of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated vnto the electe: As I thinke verely, that he did chiefely vnderstande it.
For if he woulde take it by the rigour, for the exteriour baptisme, and the materiall ceremony, I cannot nor may not agrée with him: sith that hée •lledgeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures, for so proue that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant vnto the b•untie and grace of GOD, as wee haue alreadie sufficiently declared: But I estéeme and iudge rather, that hée vnderstandeth by the baptisme made in the name of the Father, the Sonn•and of the holye Ghost, the vertue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptisme, whiche is the true signe and witnesse of him, whiche is spirituall and interiour, as the signe and exteriour ceremonye, by the which yet neuerthelesse, hée signifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue ⟨image 247⟩of the baptisme of Iesus Christ, after the manner, as the holy scripture hath accustomed to vse. For in the same 1the signe & the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured, comprehending the whole for parte bicause that the scripture addresseth it vnto the faithfull, which do not receiue the sacraments in vaine, and without a spirituall meaning: Therefore the Apostle saith: All ye that are baptised haue put on Christ. And yet neuerthelesse, Symon the Magitian was baptised outwardly 2by Philip, and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Christ, sith that he did not truely beléeue.
1Signs and figures for the things ligned & figuredSignes and figures for the things ligned & figured
Theophilus. It is certain. But yet nevertheless he hath well declared af•ewardes, that the same which he hath done was but dissembling, and that he had never true faith. But saint Luke, who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking, as we do say, that a man hath received the gospel: or that a Jew hath made himself or is become a christian, and hath believed in Jesus which yet nevertheless may do it, by hypocrisy, and not in deed. Yet nevertheless we do speak even as the things are showed unto us, leaving the judgment of y• heart unto God. So hath saint Augustine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Simon Magus hath believed.
Theophilus. It is certeine. But yet neuertheles he hath well declared af•ewardes, that the same which hée hath done was but dissembling, and that he had neuer true faith. But saint Luke, who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking, as wée doe say, that a man hath receiued the gospell: or that a Iewe hath made himselfe or is become a christian, and hath beléeued in Iesus which yet neuertheles may doe it, by hypocrisse, and not in déede. Yet neuerthelesse we doe speake euen as the thinges are shewed vnto vs, leauing the iudgment of y• heart vnto God. So hath saint Augustine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued.
Hillarius. I think, Eusebius, that thou oughtest to content thyself with the answer which Theophilus made unto thee. For it is so clear and easy, and so much confirmable unto the Analogy of the faith, that none can speak against it, except he do love rather to contend and strive through obstination, then to content himself with reason. And if thou do diligently consider, and well way that which hath been answered unto thee, thou m•ist profit by it many ways. For by the same thou mayest know what ought to be the use of the sacraments: what ought to be the true baptism and the true regeneration of a Christian. If thou dost understand that, thou shall be ⟨p. 241⟩[…] more in doubt, nor in […] of the young Infant•• which dye without baptism: But wilt leave them in the hands of God, and […] refor•e all unto his mercy. And if thou be once come unto that point, th•• shalt also know the […] o• those which do carry their children that are bor•• dead […] they did in that […] unto […] of grace of Geneva, or unto our […] of Lau•anne.
Hillarius. I thinke, Eusebius, that thou oughtest to content thyselfe with the aunswere which Theophilus made vnto thée. For it is so cleare and easie, and so much confirmable vnto the Annallogie of the faith, that none can speake against it, except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination, then to content himselfe with reason. And if thou doe diligently consider, and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée, thou m•ist profite by it many wayes. For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments: what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian. If thou dost vnderstande that, thou shall bée ⟨p. 241⟩〈…〉 more in doubt, nor in 〈…〉 of the younge Infant•• which dye without baptisme: But wylt leaue them in the handes of God, and 〈…〉 refor•e all vnto his mercy. And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe, th•• shalt also knowe the 〈…〉 o• those which doe carie their children that are bor•• dead 〈…〉 they dyd in that 〈…〉 vnto 〈…〉 of grace of Geneua, or vnto our 〈…〉 of Lau•anne.
Hillarius. There […] now then but a Lady of Cheese, […] of Butter, the which is now altogether […]. W•• should have but a little judgement, if we •••we not those great abuses, and to judge of those false […]. Further more, by th•se same reasons thou mayest judge of the […] of those which do give authority unto the wise and […] ••emon to baptis• the young 1[…] they […] danger of […]
Hillarius. Ther 〈…〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese, 〈…〉 of Butter, the whiche is nowe altogether 〈…〉. W•• shoulde haue but a little iudgement, if wée •••we not those great abuses, and to iudge of those false 〈…〉. Further more, by th•se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈…〉 of those which doe giue authoritie vnto the wise and 〈…〉••emon to baptis• the younge 1〈…〉 they 〈…〉 daunger of 〈…〉
Theoph••••. There is first of all this evil, that those that require such baptism, are of an opinion that it is so necessary unto […], that without the same their child cannot be saved. Wherein they do […] unto the grace of Jesus Christ, and do presume […] of the virtue of his holy spirit, and do render public and open witness of their superstition and infidelity. Again, they sin in that that they do dishonour the Sacraments, when they give and bestow them unto others then unto those unto whom God hath given the charge to administer them. Wherefore they cannot fail, either on the one side or on the other, but that they are greatly to be rebuked. For if they do add to it necessity, it appeareth already into what error they are. If they say that they do not put to it necessity, and that they do not tie the grace of God unto the corruptible elements, and exterior ministry, wherefore then do they give that authority ⟨image 248⟩unto women, without the word of God? Wherefore do they take any other […] then the same which is given them of Jesus Christ? Wherefore do they separate that which God hath joined together? For the baptism & the administration of Sacraments are joined together with the […], and […] be separated, without over throwing the orna• which Jesus Christ hath put and set in his Church. Now even as the institution of the Sacraments is a public Ceremony and joined together with the ministry of the Gospel, so ought they to be 1administered publicly in the Church, by those self same unto whom the ministry of the Gospel is committed, and which of God and of the same are elected pastor• and ministers. And therefore Jesus Christ hath not given charge to baptise unto others then unto those unto whom 2he hath commanded to preach his gospel, & to exercise the Evangelical ministry in his Church. For it is expressly 3forbidden women to speak in the Church, and to usurp upon them any ecclesiastical office: the which thing is not permitted but unto women, & yet not unto all indiffer•• ly, but unto those which are elected & lawfully ordained to the same, the which he doth sufficiently declare, when he commanded by his Apostle, y• all things should be done honestly 4& in order.
Theoph••••. There is first of all this euill, that those that require such baptisme, are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈…〉, that without the same their childe cannot be saned. Wherein they doe 〈…〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ, and doe presume 〈…〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite, and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie. Againe, they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes, when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them. Wherefore they cannot fayle, either on the one side or on the other, but that they are greatly to bée rebuked. For if they doe adde to it necessitie, it appeareth already into what errour they are. If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie, and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes, and exteriour ministrie, wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie ⟨image 248⟩vnto woemen, without the word of God? Wherefore doo they take any other 〈…〉 then the same which is giuen them of Iesus Christ? Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together? For the baptisme & the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈…〉, and 〈…〉 be seperated, without ouer throwing the orna• which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church. Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the ministrie of the Gospel, so ought they to be 1administred publyckly in the Church, by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed, and which of God and of the same are •lected pastor• and ministers. And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom 2he hath commaunded to preach his gospel, & to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church. For it is expre••y 3forbidden woemen to speake in the Church, and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office: the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen, & yet not vnto all indiffer ly, but vnto those which are elected & lawefully ordeyned to the same, the which he doth sufficiently declare, when he cōmaunded by his Apostle, y all things should be done honestly
For if in y•••uile administration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exercise y• offices, but to the officers, d• we think y• Jesus Christ requireth less in the ecclesiastical policy? and that he will suffer, that the same that he hath set should be overthrown? Those then that will allow the baptism of women, ought first to show in what place God hath ordained it: what witness or example of the Scripture they have. If that is wanting them, as I am well assured that it is, they shall be constrained to confess, that that baptism is given without faith, and that it is builded but upon mans opinion.
For faith cometh by the hearing of the word of 1God. If then it have not the word of God, it can have no faith. If it have no faith, it is then sin. For all that ⟨p. 242⟩2which is done without faith is sin. We may then 3ask them, even as Jesus Christ asked the Pharisees, touching the baptism of John. Baptist: to wit, whether it were from heaven or of men. Also in like manner that baptism of women, whether it be of God or of men? If they answer y• it •• […] God, where are the witnesses of the Scripture. I• they answer it is of men, as they shall […] constrayne• to say, they shall be compelled to confess, that it is the proceeded from an other author contrary unto God: ••th that Jesus Christ directeth men unto heaven and unto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his contrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptism is proceeded of any other, but of the adversary of God, which would advance, women unto the ministry and ecclesiastical offices, from which God would draw and pull them from it, for to declare themselves in all things contrary unto GOD. Even so hath he done 4among the Pa••ms, which have used women Priests: And among the heretics Marcionists, who with their master Martion, have permitted women to baptise, as Epiphanius witnesseth. Behold the examples & witnesses which you may have, for your baptism of women.
For if in y•••uile administration order be required, & that it is not lawful to exercise y• offices, but to the officers, d• we thinke y• Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie? and that hée will suffer, that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen? Those then that will allow the baptisme of women, ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it: what witnesse or example of the Scripture they haue. If that is wantinge them, as I am well assured that it is, they shall bée constrayned to confesse, that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth, and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion.
For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of 1God. If then it haue not the word of God, it can haue no faith. If it haue no fayth, it is then sinne. For all that ⟨p. 242⟩2whiche is done without fayth is sinne. We maye then 3aske them, euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises, touching the baptisme of Iohn. Baptist: to witte, whether it were from heauen or of men. Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen, whether it be of God or of men? If they answere y• it ••〈…〉 God, where are the witnesses of the Scripture. I• they answere it is of men, as they shall 〈…〉 constrayne• to say, they shalbe compelled to confesse, that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God: ••th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God, declaring thereby that that which is not of the one, is of his cōtrary. I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other, but of the aduersary of God, which would aduance, women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices, from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it, for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto GOD. Euen so hath hée done 4
4women priests Martionistes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h•. 42 De cons. dist. 4. ca. Baptisandi, & constat. Mul•er. E• con•. Car•• […] 30. q. 3. Super quis. Unde versus ex Chans. de Sacra. Baptizat. laicus, multer si mors t•meatur. Est tamen officium solum modo presbyterorum. Mortis in periculo sufficit omnis homo.vvomen priestes Martionistes Epiph. Tom. 3. lib. 1. contr. Mart. h•. 42 De cons. dist. 4. ca. Baptisandi, & constat. Mul•er. E• con•. Car••〈…〉 30. q. 3. Super quis. Vnde versus ex Chans. de Sacra. Baptizat. laicus, multer si mors t•meatur. Est tamen officium solum modo presbyterorum. Mortis in periculo sufficit omnis homo.
Eusebius. I do agree unto all that which thou sayest, as touching the public office, and having no necessity. For the Councils, Canons and ancient Doctors, do not say much less, but do witness plainly, that it is not lawful for any person to baptise, but unto the Ministers of the Church, as the Bishops and Priests do. But they do understand the same, when there is no extraordinary necessity, and danger of death. For in such case they do dispense and permit to do it, not only unto lay men and handicrafts men, but in like mann•r •nto women.
Eusebius. I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest, as touching the publyke office, and hauinge no necessytie. For the Councells, Canons and auncient Doctours, doe not saye much lesse, but doe witnesse playnelye, that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise, but vnto the Ministers of the Church, as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe. But they doe vnderstande the same, when there is no extraordinarye necessitie, and daunger of death. For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it, not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men, but in like mann•r •nto women.
Theophilus. We do not dispute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath commanded. I find no necessity, but when God giveth us y• means, & that there may be fault in us. Nevertheless if it be needful to arm th•selues with y• authority of men, in this matter, yet ⟨image 249⟩we will prove that the […] for v•. For first of all, […] i• […] that ••er Jesus Christ hath said ••to […] and baptise, Wherefore saint August•••ath […] •• […] •••ly of the woman, but of the pri••te and p••ticul•r man, to wit, whether he do• […] i• […] i• […] of nieces[…] To the whi•h •é• […] the rather for to […] it th•• […] the •eas•, 1wi•e it is a thing […] that •• […] •ot […] that it is lawful, but confe••eth […] that there […] • certain fault, although that •ee made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happeneth […] ••to the good Mariners, who through the •iol••c•s •• the […] are constrained to […] from their right […] and to follow whether the tempests and winds will drive and carry them. There •s no doubt, that […] from the time of Saint Augustine, that error and custom was not any thing at all received. Wherefore Saint Augustine ••rst not altogether condemn it. No more also durst he •o allow it, nor altogether excuse it o• […] Yet nevertheless, if we do follow the rule of Jesus Christ, that will put us •ut of all doub•e. Although that we yet have on our side, the fourth Council of Africa, which hath forbidden the same, without any exception. 2It is most true, that in the •e•ré•s •f Gratian, that Canon is alleged, but not according to the truth: as it is written in the book of Councils. For he addeth to it the exception, which is not in the true original.
Theophilus. Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit, but of that which god hath cōmaunded. I finde no necessitie, but whē God giueth vs y• means, & that ther may be falt in vs. Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme th•selues with y• authoritie of men, in this matter, yet ⟨image 249⟩wée will proue that the 〈…〉 for v•. For first of all, 〈…〉 i•〈…〉 that ••er Iesus Christ hath sayd ••to 〈…〉 and baptise, Wherefore sainct August•••ath 〈…〉••〈…〉•••ly of the woeman, but of the pri••te and p••ticul•r man, to witte, whether hée do•〈…〉 i•〈…〉 i•〈…〉 of neces〈…〉 To the whi•h •é•〈…〉 the rather for to 〈…〉 it th••〈…〉 the •eas•, 1
Hillarius. Although that •here w•re none but the witnesses of the Priests, they do sufficiently declare that it is evil. For when one bringeth the children to •ee baptised, they do demand: is there any thing but good? They demand the same, for to know whether that the Infant hath been baptised by the woem•n. If it hath not been baptised, th•• answer, that all is well or there is nothing but good. It followeth then that ⟨p. 243⟩th•re was an evil when the child was baptised by them.
Hillarius. Althoughe that •here w•re none but the witnesses of the Priestes, they doe sufficientlye declare that it is euill. For when one bringeth the •hildren to •ée baptised, they doe demaunde: is there any thinge but good? They demaund the same, for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptised by the woem•n. If it hath not bene baptised, th•• aunswere, that all is well or there is nothinge but good. It followeth then that ⟨p. 243⟩th•re was an euill when the childe was baptised by them.
Eusebius. They d•• not understand it so as thou takest it.
Eusebius. They d•• not vnderstand it so as thou takest it.
ReformersLausanne/Geneva
Reformer of Lausanne and colleague of Calvin.
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wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked, sith that he hath not yet the vnderstanding, discretion nor the power to doe it, it followeth not therefore, but that the peruersitie and malyce, which is naturall in man, hath alreadie his roote in him, as one part of his paternall in•erita•nce, the which cannot please God. For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites, yet they doe remaine still there, as in their roote, which will bring them forth in his time: As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent, although that he bite not:
amonge the Pa••ms, which haue vsed woemen Priestes: And amonge the heretickes Martionistes, who with their master Martion, haue permitted woemen to baptyse, as Epiphanius wytnesseth. Beholde the examples & witnesses which you may haue, for your baptisme of women.
wi•e it is a thing 〈…〉 that ••〈…〉•ot 〈…〉 that it is lawfull, but confe••eth 〈…〉 that there 〈…〉• certeyne fault, although that •ée made it light. But he hath taken it, as it happen•th 〈…〉••to the good Mariners, who through the •iol••c•s •• the 〈…〉 are constrayned to 〈…〉 from their right 〈…〉 and to followe whether the tempestes and windes will driue and cary them. There •s no doubte, that 〈…〉 from the time of Sain•t Augustine, that errour and custome was not any thing at all receyued. Wherefore Sainct Augustine ••rst not altogether condempne it. No more also durst hée •o allowe it, nor altogether excuse it o•〈…〉 Yet neuerthelesse, if wée doe followe the rule of Iesus Christe, that will put vs •ut of all doub•e. Althoughe that wée yet haue on our side, the fourth Councell of Africa, whiche hath forbidden the same, without any exception.
It is most true, that in the •e•ré•s •f Gra•ian, that Canon is alledged, but not accordinge to the truth: as it is written in the booke of Councells. For hée addeth to it the exception, whiche is not in the true oryginall.
