The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wiseThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise
The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take great pleasure in the reading thereof. Translated out of French into English, by John Brooke of AsheThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe
Pierre Viret 1511–1571London: printed by Thomas East, 1579
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Eusebius. §ObiectionWherefore then reserved he yet pains unto David, after that the fault was pardoned 1him, insomuch that he was driven from his kingdom by his own son Absalom? Wherefore punished & chastised he him, after that the Prophet Nathan had declared unto him the remission of his sin?
Eusebius. §ObiectionWherefore then reserued he yet paines vnto Dauid, after that the faulte was pardoned 1him, insomuch that he was driuen from his kingdome by his owne sonne Absalom? Wherefore punished & chastised he him, after that the Prophet Nathan had declared vnto him the remission of his sinne?
12. Reg. 12. 15. 16. 1•. & 18 The punishment of David2. Reg. 12. 15. 16. 1•. & 18 The punishmēt of Dauid
Theophilus. 1When God chastised David, & when he chastiseth us every day, because of our sins, he doth it not so much, for the sin which hath been committed, as for to advertise and admonish us, that we do not sin hereafter. And the pain that we bear is not for to satisfy God. For there is none other 2satisfaction then the death & passion of Jesus Christ, that he can allow to be sufficient. For if we must satisfy for our selves, we must bear & carry all the importable burden of the wrath and judgement of God. Now if we must bear them, there is none of us but should have his shoulders broken, and should be plunged & drowned in the golf & bottom of hell with the Devils. For if the Angels could
not bear it, which of us shall be sufficient, which are but worms of the earth? And wherefore did God our good father send us Jesus Christ to help us, but to that end that he would bear it & satisfy for us, & that through his satisfaction
we should be reconciled unto God, & delivered from his judgement? Seeing then that God our father hath the satisfaction of Jesus Christ his son, which is more then sufficient for us all, he requireth for us none other satisfaction. And if he require good works of us, he requireth
them not for satisfaction, for they are too insufficient: But for praises and giving of thanks, and witnesses of our faith, & of the remembrance that we have of the benefits that hoe hath given unto us in his son Jesus Christ, and for to incite our brethren for to praise and magnify him. Therefore said Jesus Christ unto his Disciples. Let your light so shine before men, that
they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven. He said not to the end that by them, you should satisfy for your sins: or that you should merit the kingdom of heaven, and be justified. For the faithful man hath obtained already all that by the faith of Jesus Christ, which is
our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, through whose merit Paradise is given unto us. For that cause the holy Apostle calleth the eternal life, the gift of GOD. Wherefore we may understand that we merit it not through our good deeds, but it is given
us freely, through Gods liberality: Even as the Fathers inheritance is given unto the son:
Theophilus. 1When God chastised Dauid, & when he chastiseth vs euery day, bicause of our sinnes, he doth it not so much, for the sinne which hath bene committed, as for to aouertise and admonish vs, that we do not sinne heereafter. And the paine that we beare is not for to satisfie God. For ther is none other 2satisfaction then the death & passion of Iesus Christ, that he can allow to be sufficient. For if we must satisfie for our selues, we must beare & cary all the importable burthen of the wrath and iudgement of God. Now if we must beare them, there is none of vs but should haue his shoulders broken, and should be plunged & drowned in the goulfe & bottome of hell with the Diuels. For if the Angels could 3not beare it, which of vs shall be sufficient, which are but wormes of the earth? And wherfore did God our good father send vs Iesus Christ to helpe vs, but to that end that he would beare it & satisfie for vs, & that thorow his satisfaction 4we should be reconciled vnto God, & deliuered from his iudgement? Seing then that God our father hath the satis•action of Iesus Christ his sonne, which is more then sufficient for vs all, he requireth for vs none other satisfaction. And if hee require good woorkes of vs, he requireth 5them not for satisfaction, for they are too insufficient: But for prayses and giuing of thanckes, and wytnesses of our faith, & of the remembraunce that wee haue of the benefites that hoe hathe gyuen vnto vs in his sonne Iesus Christ, and for to incite our bretheren for to prayse and magniste hym. Therefore sayde Iesus Christe vnto hys Dysciples. Let your lyght so shine before men, that ⟨p. 84⟩6they maye sée your good woorkes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen. Hée sayde not to the ende that by them, you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes: or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen, and bée iustyfied. For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe, whiche is 7our wisedome, ryghteousnesse, sanctification, thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs. For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe, the gift of GOD. Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes, but it is gyuen 8vs froelye, thorowe Gods lyberalytie: Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne:
1For what cause God chastiseth us in this worldFor vvhat cause God chastiseth vs in this world
2Satisfaction for the sinsSatisfaction sor the sinnes
not for that he hath deserved it, but because that he pleased him so, for that he loved him, and that he is his child, and will give him his goods freely. Otherwise grace 1should be no more grace, but debt. On the contrary, when Saint Paul did speak of the eternal death, he 2calleth it the wages of sin: declaring thereby that man hath well deserved it, and that he can deserve none other thing, but that that wages is due unto 3him, for a recompense of the service that he hath done unto the Devil, the Prince of this world, even as the wages which is paid unto a soldier, for bearing of weapons under his Captain. We […] then see that 4the works done by the children of God, and the service that the Angels doo• unto him, do tend all unto one end, to wit, to glorify GOD and to sanctify his name. Even as then the Angels serve not GOD for to merit Paradise, of which they are already in possession, neither for satisfaction of their sins, of which they are not entangled: But only for the love that they have in GOD, and the desire of his glory, so Gods elect do regard none other thing, for they are already washed and purged 5from their sins by the bloud• of Jesus Christ, and their heart purified by the faith in him, ⟨image 91⟩and through the word that they have heard of him: And are already possessors of the kingdom of heaven in hope: the which is no less sure and certain, then if the thing were present, and that the Angels are assured of that that they have. Therefore the holy Apostle saith, that we 6are saved through hope, and that Jesus Christ doth make us sit in the heavenly places. And therefore when God doth chastise and correct us in this world, that is, as the Apostle also writeth unto the Corinthians, for to correct and chastise us, that we should not be damned with the world and the Infidels: because that we are yet in the way, and 7capable of chastisement and amendment, But there is an other reason after this life here, when we are out of the way; and need, and that we cannot any more impair nor amend: And therefore the Lord doth chasten us here, as the good Father who beateth not his son for to have 8any recompense thereby for the fault that he hath committed: For the pain of the child bringeth no profit unto the Father.
not for that he hath deserued it, but bycause that hée pleased hym so, for that hee loued him, and that hée is hys chylde, and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely. Otherwyse grace 1shoulde bée no more grace, but debte. On the contrary, when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death, hée 2calleth it the wages of sinne: declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it, and that hée can deserue none other thinge, but that that wages is due vnto 3hym, for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell, the Prince of this worlde, euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer, for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne. Wee 〈…〉 then sée that 4the woorkes done by the chyldren of God, and the seruice that the Angelles doo• vnto hym, doe tende all vnto one ende, to witte, to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name. Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse, of whiche they are alreadye in possession, neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes, of whithe they are not entangled: But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD, and the desyre of hys glorye, so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge, for they are alreadye washed and purged 5from theire sinnes by the bloud• of Iesus Christ, and theyre hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym, ⟨image 91⟩and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym: And are already possessors of ye kingdome of heauē in hope: the which is no lesse sure and certeine, then if the thinge were present, and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue. Therefore the holy Apostle sayth, that wee 6are saued thorowe hope, and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places. And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde, that is, as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians, for to correct and chastise vs, that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels: bicause that we are yet in the waye, and 7
Also he doth not beat him through rigour nor through malice that he hath to take vengeance of him: For he loveth him as his child, and the fatherly affection maketh him soon forget the faults and injuries that he hath done unto him: As it is clearly showed unto us in the Father of the prodigal child.1
Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him: For hée loueth him as his childe, and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him: As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe.1
Theophilus. If he knew that he would never do any more fault he would soon pardon him, without any punishment: But fearing least through his great patience • gentleness should fall again, he is constrained to beat and chastise him, although that he do, it not willingly, but it to that end to make him more prudent and wise, and to better advise himself in time to come, and that he take diligent heed not to shall again in y• fault or in any other greater. The which is no more to be feared in those whom, GOD hath called from this world. Wherefore they cannot any more rectius punishment which should be to c•n•en them as is y• same of the father towards ⟨p. 85⟩his child, for to amend him. But if there he a punishment, 1it is rather, to declare the judgement & the severity of God towards the wicked and reprobates, and to manifest his goodness and mercy towards his elect: As the Judge doth condemn the traitor, murderer and other malefactors, that have deserved death, not for to have any recompense, nor those unto whom they have done wrong and injury. For what recompense can they have by their deaths? neither do they it for to cause them to walk in time to come more uprightly, sith that they take from them their life: But for to satisfy righteousness, and to maintain it, to that end that other may take example, and that they may know how available it is to have followed virtue and eschewed vice.
Theophilus. If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him, without any punishment: But fearing least thorow his great patience • gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne, hee is constrained to beate and chastise him, although that he doe, it not willingly, but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse, and to better aduise himselfe in time to come, and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in y• fault or in any other greater. The which is no more to be feared in those whome, GOD hath called from this worlde. Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to c•n•en them as is y• same of the father towards ⟨p. 85⟩his child, for to amend him. But if there hée a punishment, 1it is rather, to declare the iudgement & the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates, and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect: As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor, murtherer and other malefactors, that haue deserued death, not for to haue any recompence, nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury. For what recompence can they haue by their deathes? neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly, sith that they take from them their life: But for to satisfie righteousnes, and to mayntaine it, to that end that other may take example, and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice.
1The punishment of the malefactors.The punishmēt of the malefactors.
Eusebius. To what purpose then doth Saint John 1in his revelation say: Their works do follow them? what works do follow them, but the good deeds that men do for them after their death? For those that they have done whilst they lived went before, not after. Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them.
Eusebius. To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn 1in his reuelation say: Their works do follow them? what workes do follow them, but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death? For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before, not after. Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them.
1Apo. 14. c. 13 Obie cten O pera. N. illorum sequuntur illos. What •orkes follow y• dead.Apo. 14. c. 13 Obie cten O pera. N. illorum sequuntur illos. VVhat •orkes follovv y• dead.
Theophilus. Saint John speaketh it because that their works do bear witness that they are the children of God. He saith not other mens works, but their own works. For as man liveth of his own soul, and not of the soul of an other mans, even so doth the righteous man of his faith. And as the righteous man liveth of his faith, & not of the faith of an other, even so shall every one be judged according to his works, and not after 1those that other men shall do. For it is written: Every one shall bear his own burden. And therefore Jesus Christ saith: by thy word & thou shalt be justified: and by thy words thou shalt be condemned: That is so say thy 2words and thy works shall bear witness, of thy heart, and by them thou shalt, be justified, that is to say, absolved, declared and pronounced just and righteous: O• by them thou shalt be condemned, known and judged worthy of death and condemnation. Not that God ⟨image 92⟩needeth any witness of our works, for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condemnation. For he knoweth y• hearts, & needeth none other witness but his own. 3But y• scripture useth such manner of speaking for to apply it to our capacity, for to manifest & declare unto us better the Just Judgement of god, which will show forth y• h•pecri•e of man heart. For man how wicked soever his heart be, he would always hide it: & if one put it to his own con •c•éce although y• he do condemn it, he will not for y• leave off to advance & brag he y• le an honest man, until such time as he he taken with his wicked deed, as y• thief with his stea•ing. For he is so perverse & wicked although y• be be taken with the deed, he will excuse himself: And as y• shameless whore, is not a shamed to deny y• which we see with our eyes, & handle with our hands: As we have an example in Came. Although 4that he killed his brother, and y• his hands were yet all bloody and wet with the blood that he •ad shed, it seemeth to hear him speak, that God did unto him great miury and wrong, in asking him where he is.
Theophilus. Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of God. He sayth not other mens workes, but theyr owne workes. For as man lyueth of his owne soule, and not of the soule of an other mans, euen so doth the righteous man of his faith. And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith, & not of the faith of an other, euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes, and not after 1those that other men shall doe. For it is written: Euery one shall beare his owne burthen. And therefore Iesus Christ sayth: by thy worde & thou shalt bee iustified: and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned: That is so saye thy 2wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes, of thy heart, and by them thou shalt, bée iuslified, that is to saye, absolued, declared and pronounced iust and righteous: O• by them thou shalt be condem•ned, knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation. Not that God ⟨image 92⟩néedeth any witnes of our workes, for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condēnation. For he knoweth y• hearts, & néedeth none other witnes but his owne. 3But y• scripture vseth such māner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie, for to manifest & declare vnto vs better ye Iust Iudgemēt of god, which wil shew foorth y• h•pecri•e of mā heart. For mā how wicked soeuer his heart be, he wold alwaies hide it: & if one put it to his own cō •c•éce although y• he do condemne it, he wil not for y• leaue off to aduasice & brag he y• le an honest man, vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed, as y• theefe wt his stea•ing. For he is so peruers & wicked although y• be be taken wt the deed, he wil excuse himself: And as y shameles whore, is not a shamed to deny y which we see wt our eyes, & hanole wt our hands: As we haue an example in Came. Although
2Gala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the Judgement shall be according to the worksGala. 6. b. 5 Mat. 12. d. 37. Wherefore the Iudgement shal be according to the vvoorkes
3Psa. 159. a. 2 […]. 9 […]. 30 […]. 4Psa. 159. a. 2 〈…〉. 9 〈…〉. 30 〈…〉. 4
And therefore God would vanquish the malice and perversity of mans heart, and condemn it by the works that are manifest, for to declare unto him, and to make him confess by the fruit, that he is the root a•d the tree, to the end that he may not glorify himself to be the Fig & the O life 1tree, when one doth evidently show unto him the thorns & thistles that it hath born. And even so every creature is constrained to acknowledge and conf•sse, that the judgement of God is just, and that it consisteth in all truth and equity. Now the works y• men do for us, after that we 2be dead, are not ours. Wherefore we cannot say, that they follow us. For it is another matter to be in the way and journey, and to have already ended his journey and to be arrived at the port, whilst that we are in the course of this present life, he taketh us as a sree which yet groweth, the which one may dress and prune, for to 3make him bear fruit. But when he is once cut down, there is no more hope, he lieth where lie falleth, he must travail ⟨p. 86⟩no more afterwards. In like manner may we judge of man. Whilst y• he is in the way, & that he is in his course & 4sight, one may aide him by admonitions, entreatings & other morkes of charity, which we owe y• one to y• other, whilst y• we are herein the work of god, for us to help the one the other to obtain & win the victory. But after that he hath called us from the work in the which he hath set us, we must attend and look no more but for the reward and Crown of righteousness, the which the righteous Judge shall give unto us, as Saint Paul hoped for himself, as 5we have fought for him the good fight, and have fulfilled our course and have kept the faith unto the end: On the contrary, we must look for fear, confusion, and eternal death, as the slothful servant, unfaithful and ungracious, we have hid away and stolen the Talent away 6from our Master, without bringing unto him any profit. 7Therefore Saint John saith: Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance: that is to say, through which you show forth that truly you repent you of your sins, and that you have amended your evil life. For the are is put unto the root of the tree, so that every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit, is hewen down and cast in to the fire. Upon that ma•ter Saint Augustine did writ 8unto Macedonius after this manner:
And therefore God would vanquishe the malyce and peruersitie of mans hearte, and condemne it by the workes that are manifest, for to declare vnto him, and to make him confesse by the fruite, that he is the roote a•d the tree, to the ende that he may not glorify himself to be the Figge & the O life 1tree, when one doth emdently shewe vnto him the thornes & thistles that it hath born. And euen so euery creature is constrayned to acknowledge and conf•sse, that the iudgement of God is iust, and that it consisteth in all truth and equitie. Now the workes y• men do for vs, after that wee 2bee dead, are not ours. Wherefore wee cannot saye, that they follow vs. For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney, and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port, whylest that we are in the course of this present life, he taketh vs as a sree which yet groweth, the which one may dresse and proyne, for to 3make him beare fruite. But when he is once cut downe, ther is no more hope, he lieth wher lie falleth, he must trauayle ⟨p. 86⟩no more afterwards. In like maner may we iudge of man. Whilest y• he is in ye way, & that he is in his course & 4sight, one may aide him by admonitiōs, entreatings & other morkes of charitie, which we owe y• one to y• other, whilst y• we are herein ye work of god, for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine & win the victory. But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath set vs, wée must attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteousenes, the which the righteous Iudge shall giue vnto vs, as Sainct Paul hoped for himselfe, as 5we haue fought for him the good fight, and haue fulfilled our course and haue kept the faith vnto the ende: On the contrary, we must looke for feare, confusion, and eternall death, as the slougthfull seruant, vnfaithfull and vngrations, we haue hid away and stollen the Talent away
There is no other place for to correct and amend manners, then in this life. 1For after this life every one shall have that that he hath gotten here. And in another place he saith: In this world the 2mercy of god helpeth those y• rep•t: But in y• world to come repentance profiteth not, but we must render account of our works. Liberty of repentance is only given unto us in this life, after y• we be dead there is no more licence of correction. Now is y• time of mercy, after wards shall be the time of judgment. And in expounding those words of Jesus Christ: He 3which believeth not is already judged, saith after this man ner. The jug•ei•ent appeareth not yet, but y• judgement is already done. For y• Lord knoweth who are his. He knoweth 4those which abide looking & faring for the crown, & ⟨image 93⟩those which abide looking for the fire. Moreover Saint John Chrysostom speaketh more plainly, confirming that 5which I have said, in such words: Prepare and make ready thy works for the end, and prepare thy self to the way, and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from any man, restore it again: and make restitution, and say with 6Zachens: if I have taken from any man by forged cavillation, I restore him four fold. If thou art angry with any man, agree with him, before that thou do come unto judgement: dispatch here all things, that without let thou mayst see that Judicial seat. All the while that we are here in this world we have goodly hopes, but as soon as we shall be gone from thence, it lieth no more in our power to do penance, nor to deface and put out our sins. For after the 7end of our life, there is no more occasion of merits, no more then there is unto those ye play at prises & games, to obtain crowns and rewards after that the combat, play and prises are finished and ended. For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sins, afterwards he shall find no consolation. For in hell (as it is written) who shall confess thee? That is to say, who shall praise 8thee in the grave? And by good reason. For this is the time of the Theatres, of Combats, Plays, and Prises: But ye shall be the time of the Crowns, rewards and salaries. Also let us not think when we shall be come thither, that we shall have mercy, which do nothing at all, wherefore we ought to have pardon: No though Abraham, Noah, Job, and Daniel did pray for us.
There is no other place for to correct and amende manners, then in this life. 1For after this life euery one shall haue that that hee hath gottē here. And in another place he saith: In this world the 2mercy of god helpeth those y• rep•t: But in y• world to come repētance profiteth not, but we must rīder accompt of our works. Liberty of repētance is only giuen vnto vs in this life, after y• we be dead there is no more licr̄ce of correctiō. Now is y• time of mercy, after wards shalbe ye time of iudgment. And in expoūding those words of Iesus Christ: Hee 3which beleeueth not is already iudged, saith after this mā ner. The iug•ei•ēt appereth not yet, but y• iudgemēt is already done. For y• Lord knoweth who are his. He knoweth 4those which abyde looking & farryng for the crown, & ⟨image 93⟩those which abyde looking for the fire. Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chusostome speaketh more plainely, confirming that 5which I haue said, in such words: Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end, and prepare thy self to the way, and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from anye man, restore it againe: and make restitution, and say with 6Zachens: if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilatiō, I restore him foure fould. If thou art angry with any man, agree with him, before that thou do come vnto iudgement: dispatche here al things, that without let thou mayst sée that Iudictall seate. All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes, but assone as we shalbe gone from thence, it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce, nor to deface and put out our sinnes. For after ye
Whilst then we have time, let us prepare for our selves great trust and assurance towards God. And Saint Hierome saith no less, confessing that 1in the other world. And Saint Ambrose, is of the same opinion, saying, David required that his sins might be pardoned him before that he departed out of this life. For he that shall not here in this life receive forgiveness of his sins, shall not have it in the other: he shall not have it because he shall not have the power to come and attain ⟨p. 87⟩to the eternal life. For the forgiveness of sins, is the eternal life. Therefore saith he: pardon me O Lord, that I may be comforted before that I goo and shall be no more. And therefore I greatly marvel of that papistical doctrine, which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures, and to the witness of the ancient Doctors of the 2Church. Saint Cyprian hath written, in the Sermon that he made of the immortality, that the faithful that do dye, have taken white robes and garments, By which he 3meaneth, that they are come to the beatitude and felicity, and feacheth, that we must weep no more for the dead. Sith that they are already in the estate of felicity. But me thinks that the Priests do not take them to be assured of the eternal life whom they lodge in their Purgatory, but that from Purgatory, they may yet fall into hell: Or if they understand it not so, wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Mass for the dead? Domine Jesu Christi &c. That is to say, O Lord Jesus Christ king of glory deliver the souls of all the faithful that dye from the pains of hell, and from the deep lake. Deliver them from the Lions mouth, least the in hell he devour them, lest ye they fall not in the obscure & dark places, but the S. Michel the standard bearer do represent them into the holy light, which of late thou diddest promise unto Abraham and to his seed.
Whilest then wee haue time, let vs prepare for our selues great trust and assurance towards God. And Sainct Hierome saith no lesse, confessing that 1in the other world. And Sainct Ambrose, is of the same opinion, saying, Dauid required that his sinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life. For he that shall not here in this life receaue forgiuenesse of his sinnes, shal not haue it in the other: he shall not haue it bicause he shall not haue the power to come and attaine ⟨p. 87⟩to the eternal life. For ye forgiuenes of sinnes, is the eternall life. Therfore saith hee: pardon mee O Lorde, that I may bee comforted before that I goo and shall be no more. And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papisticall doctrine, which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures, and to the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the 2Churche. Sainct Cyprian hath written, in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie, that the faithfull that do dye, haue taken white robes and garments, By which he 3meaneth, that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie, and feacheth, that we muste wéepe no more for the dead. Sith that they are alreadie in the estate of felicitie. But me thinkes that the Priestes do not take them to bee assured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory, but that from Purgatory, they may yet fall into hell: Or if they vnderstand it not so, wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Masse for the dead? Domine Iesu Christi &c. That is to say, O Lord Iesu Christ king of glory deliuer the soules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell, and from the déepe lake. Deliuer thē from ye Lions mouth, least ye in hell he deuour thē, lest ye they fal not in ye obscure & dark places, but ye S. Michel ye standard bearer do represent thē into the holy light, which of late thou diddest promise vnto Abraham and to his seed.
1Hierome. 12. q. 2. Inpresenti. Ambrosius. lib. de bon. mor. ca. 2.
2Cyprian
3The office forth dead Domine Jesus Chreste rex glory libera ammas omnium sidelium desire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera, eas de ore leonis, ne ab sor beat eas tar tarus, ne cadunt in obscuro sed signifer sanctus Michael rpresentet eas in lucem sanctam quam olim Abrahe promisisls & seminie jus Quia in inserno nulla est redemptio. Mantua. 3. calami Sed neque rex Ereli quemque tranare paludi Ne super is ite rū reddt sinit The signification of hell.The office sorthe dead Domine Iesu Chreste rex glorie libera ammas omnium sidelium desire torum & de penis inferni de profundo lacu Lsbera, eas de ore leonis, ne ab sor beat eas tar tarus, ne cadūt in obscuro sed signifer sanctus Michael rpresentet eas in lucem sanctam quam olim Abrahe promisisls & seminie ius Quia in inserno nulla est redemptio. Mantua. 3. calami Sed neque rex Ereli quemque tranare paludi Nee super is ite rū reddt sinit The significatiō of hell.
Thomas. Me thinks that this is repugnant unto that which Eusebius hath spoken before, and to that which the Priests do sing, saying: that in hell there is no ransom nor deliverance. And yet nevertheless, they pray here in that offertory, unto Jesus Christ, that he will deliver them from the pains of hell. It must then needs follow, that either their prayer is vain, and that they demand a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary unto his will, or that there is aswell deliverance in hell as in Purgatory, and that they speak against themselves, or else that hell & Purgatory be all one thing.
Thomas. Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Eusebius hath spoken before, and to that which the Priests do sing, saying: that in hell there is no raunsome nor delyuerance. And yet nenerthelesse, they pray here in that o•fertory, vnto Iesus Christ, that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell. It must then needes follow, that eyther their prayer is vaiue, and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary vnto his will, or that there is aswel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory, and that they speake against themselues, or els that hell & Purgatory be al one thing.
Eusebius. Thy disjunctive is not good. For not, withstanding ye commonly men take hell for the hell fire ⟨image 94⟩and the place of the damned, yet nevertheless it may be understanded more amply for yt low places and countries, & the estate & condition of the dead: after this manner, his signification shall comprehend & contain also the Purgatory, as it doth in this place here.
Eusebius. Thy disiunetiue is not good. For not, withstanding ye commonly men take hell for the hell fire ⟨image 94⟩and the place of the dampned, yet neuerthelesse it may bee vnderstanded more amply for yt low places and cositries, & the estate & condicion of the dead: after this manner, his signification shall comprehende & contrine also the Purgatory, as it doth in this place here.
Thomas. And what shall we understand by the deep lake?
Thomas. And what shall we vnderstand by the deepe lake?
Pierre Viret
1511–1571
ReformersLausanne/Geneva
Reformer of Lausanne and colleague of Calvin.
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capable of chastisment and ainendement, But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere, when wee are out of the waye; and néede, and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend: And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere, as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue
that he killed his brother, and y• his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he •ad shed, it seemeth to heare him speake, that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge, in asking him where he is.
Therefore Sainct Iohn saith: Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance: that is to say, thorow which you shewe foorth that truely you repent you of your sinnes, and that you haue amended your euill life. For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree, so that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite, is hewen downe and cast in to the fire. Uppon that ma•ter Sainct Augustine did writte
end of our life, there is no more occasion of merites, no more then there is vnto those ye play at prises & games, to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat, play and prises are finished and ended. For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sinnes, afterwards he shal finde no consolation. For in hell (as it is written) who shall confesse thee? That is to say, who shall prayse
thee in the graue? And by good reason. For this is the time of the Theators, of Combals, Playes, and Prises: But ye shalbe the time of the Crownes, rewards and salaryes. Also let vs not thinke when we shall be come thyther, that we shall haue mercy, which do nothing at all, wherefore we ought to haue pardon: No though Abraham, Noe, Iob, and Daniell did pray for vs.
