The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wiseThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise
The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Divided into three parts, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take great pleasure in the reading thereof. Translated out of French into English, by John Brooke of AsheThe Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe
Pierre Viret 1511–1571London: printed by Thomas East, 1579
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
The which also afterwards were corrupted, as we may see this day by experience, insomuch that they are more dangerous, then those of the Paynims, I think that that which hath been already entreated, of the feast of Saint Peters chair, the which they celebrate in February, agreeth to that very purpose whereof Saint Augustine hath spoken.
The which also afterwardes were corrupted, as wée may sée this day by experience, insomuch that they are more daungerous, then those of the Panims, I thinke that that which hath bene alreadye entreated, of the feast of Sainct Peters chaire, the whiche they celebrate in February, agréeth to that very purpose whereoff Sainct Augustine hath spoken.
Hillarius. It is most true, that those ancient fathers would have driven away the superstition by such inventions, as we do drive out a pin with one other pin. But they were not much profitable unto the Church.
Hillarius. It is most true, that those auncient fathers would haue driuen away the superstition by such inuentions, as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne. But they were not muche profitable vnto the Church.
Theophilus. After that manner came the custom to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiastical assembles and in the celebration of the supper, over and beside the causes before alleged. And afterwards by little and little, the superstition hath begun, and is augmented unto this which we do now see it. We have no example 1in all the holy Scripture, that the Apostles have done any thing of this. About the time of Tertullian and of Cyprian, there was no question neither of Purgatory, nor of prayers nor offerings, for to deliver the souls, but such which we have seen. About the time of Ambrose and Augustine, the superstition did begin very much to take root and to increase, insomuch that in
stead of simple commemorations, giving of thanks, and exhortations, which they made in celebrating the memory of the dead, they had already begun to dispute, that the prayers did profit them: and that the
question of Purgatory was already begun to be stirred up. For it is very easy for men, yea, the most sage and wisest, to fall into superstition, because that it is natural unto us, and chiefly about the dead, by reason of an affection and love that we do bear unto our parents and friends, whom we cannot forget, although they be absent from us, but we do abide and continue always affectioned towards them, as though we might greatly aid them, yea, many times more after they be dead then before when they were alive. From thence it cometh that we are so much inclined to invent and receive every thing that we think may serve them. And although in deed it serveth them to no end, yet nevertheless we cannot refrain our selves, because that. we think that we do feel comfort and satisfaction to our affection, judging the affection of the dead, after our own, our dealings is fowardes them, as towards God. What is the original and beginning of all Idolatry, but our foolish fantasy and affection, by the which we do measure God, thinking that
he taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth us? Wherefore we serve him not after his will, but after ours. For in making feasts, in reposing our selves, being apparelled with goodly robes and gowns, making great cheer, hearing goodly singings and melodies, walking about and passing the time in going a procession, w•e think that we do serve God well.
Theophilus. After that manner came the custome to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiasticall assembles and in the celebration of the supper, ouer and beside the causes before alledged. And afterwardes by little and little, the superstition hath begun, and is augmented vnto this which we doe now sée it. We haue no example 1in all the holy Scripture, that the Apostles haue done any thing of this. About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian, there was no question neither of Purgatory, nor of prayers nor offeringes, for to delyuer the soules, but such which wée haue séene. About the tyme of Ambrose and Augustine, the superstition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increase, insomuch that in ⟨image 187⟩stéede of simple commemorations, giuinge of thanckes, and exhortations, which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead, they had already begunne to dyspute, that the prayers dyd profite them: and that the 2question of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée sturred vp. For it is very easie for men, yea, the most sage and wysest, to fall into superstition, bicause that it is naturall vnto vs, and chiefely about the dead, by reason of an affection and loue that wée doe beare vnto our parentes and friendes, whome wée cannot forget, although they be absent from vs, but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them, as though we might greatly ayde them, yea, many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue. From thence it commeth that we are so much inclined to inuent and receiue euery thing that wee thincke maye serue them. And althoughe in déede it serueth them to no ende, yet neuerthelesse wée cannot refraine our selues, bycause that. wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and satysfaction to our affection, iudgeinge the affection of the dead, after our owne, our dealinges is fowardes them, as towardes God. What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry, but our foolishe fantasse and affection, by the which wée doe measure God, thinkinge that 3hée taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth vs? Wherefore wée serue him not after his wyll, but after ours. For in makinge feastes, in reposinge our selues, béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes, makinge greate chéere, hearinge goodly singinges and melodyes, walkinge about and passinge the time in goinge a procession, w•e thincke that wee doe serue God well.
But what service do w•e unto him? Do we not rather serve our selves and our affections, making unto us a God altogether like unto our selves, delighting our selves in the like vanities? As much is happened unto us about the dead.1
But what seruice doe w•e vnto him? Doe we not rather serue our selues and our affections, making vnto vs a God altogether like vnto our selues, deliting our selues in the like vanities? As much is happened vnto vs aboute the dead.1
1Foolish assestiō towards y• dead.Foolissh assestiō towards y• dead.
Hillarius. When a man is angry, yet it doth him much ⟨p. 181⟩good to revenge himself upon some one, for to make him pass away his sorrow and anger, although he do receive no great profit. Even so when a man is in sorrow and beavines, for the death of his friend, he must have some solace and comfort, for to comfort his sorrow & heaviness. And thereof it came that the woman that loveth well her husband, or the mother, her child, oftentimes cannot refrain to kiss them after that they shall be dead, or to embrace them, & some time with more greater affection, then ever she did during the time that he lived. But whereto profiteth all that, either to the quick or dead?
Hillarius. When a man is angry, yet it doth him much ⟨p. 181⟩good to reuenge himselfe vpon some one, for to make hym passe away his sorrow and anger, although hée do receiue no great profit. Euen so when a man is in sorrowe and beauines, for the death of his friend, hée muste haue some solace and comfort, for to comfort his sorrow & heauinesse. And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir husbande, or the mother, hir childe, oftentymes cannot refrayne to kisse them after that they shalbe dead, or to embrace them, & some time with more greater affection, then euer she dyd during the tyme that he lyued. But wheretoo profiteth all that, eyther to the quick or dead?
Theophilus. Of 1such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images, as it showed unto us in the book of wisdom, yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry, as all y• ancient Fathers do witness, especially Lactantius & Eusebius. 2For the men for the affection that they did bear unto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had, & to remember them, and besides to honour them, they made Images, and set up sumptuous Sepulchres in their honour. Afterwards they began to build Temples and Chapels hard by their graves, and to set therein their Images. Afterwards in success of time, all was converted and changed into great superstition and Idolatry. And even as it begun among the Paynims, so is it entered among the Christians, 3by occasion of the Sepulchres of the Martyrs. For they have begun to make there their Ecclesiastical assemblies, to go thither to watch, and pray unto God, and to celebrate the supper. Afterward they have builded Chapels and Temples, and have ordained Annual feasts. And after that those foundations were once set up, which was yet some thing tolerable, the thing was afterwards perverted. Insomuch that in stead of the Candles that they carried for to watch all the night, they 4began to offer them to the Saints, and to their Images. ⟨image 188⟩In stead of the prayers y• were made unto god, they have begun to address & direct them unto them. In stead of yt supper 5y• they celebrated in y• name of y• death & passion of Jesus Christ, they have also begun to ado the •ememoration of y• Saints & Saints: And thereof came yt Commemorantes which is in y• Even of the Mass, in which they do make 6••p••sse remembrance, of some Saints & Saints. And afterwards by little & little, in stead of y• simple commemoration which is done of y• Saints & Saints, they have begun to give unto every one of […], his Mass all wholly, insomuch y• there is neither Saint nor Saints, but hath one, & that they do call upon it in steed of God, & unto whom y• Priests have not given some occupation & office for to help & aide God in so many affairs. And after y• satan hath so well augmented his stuff, under y• title of Martyrs, & of their Commemorations, to y• end y• nothing should remain, but y• it should be full of idolatry & superstition, he hath also lound y• means to make men muse after y• are dead, after an other manner.
Theophilus. Of 1such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images, as it shewed vnto vs in the booke of wisdome, yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry, as all y• auncient Fathers do witnes, especially Lactantius & Eusebius. 2For the men for the affection that they did beare vnto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had, & to remember them, and besides to honour them, they made Images, and set vppe sumptuous Sepulcres in their honour. Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues, and to set therein their Images. Afterwardes in successe of time, all was conuerted and chaunged into great superstition and I•olatry. And euen as it begun among the Panims, so is it entred among the Christians, 3by occasion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs. For they haue begunne to make there their Ecclesiasticall assemblies, to go thither to watch, and pray vnto God, and to celebrate the supper. Afterwarde they haue builded Chappels and Temples, and haue ordeyned Annuall feastes. And after that those foundations were once sette vppe, which was yet some thing tollerable, the thinge was afterwardes peruerted. Insomuche that in stéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night, they 4began to offer them to the Saincts, and to their Images. ⟨image 188⟩In steede of the prayers y• were made vnto god, they haue begun to addresse & direct thē vnto them. In st•ede of yt supper 5y• they celebrated in y• name of y• death & passiō of Iesus Christ, they haue also begun to adoe the •ememoration of y• Saynts & Sayntes: And theroff came yt Commemorantes which is in y• Eauen of the Masse, in which they doe make 6
1The original of Images. Sap•en. •. •. b. 15The originall of Im•ges. Sap•en. •. •. b. 15
2Lact. de fal. rcl li. a. ca. 13. Euseb. de pra ena li. 3. ca. 8
3The beginning of the Idolatry among the Christi•is.
4The •ardell• of a good […].The •ardell• of a good 〈…〉.
For to make them all to be worshipped as Saints he could not. Also he knew very well, y• after the damned, men will not much travail nor bestow any cost. And therefore he hath sound a third order.
For to make them al to be worshiped as Saincts he could not. Also he knew very wel, y• after ye damned, men wil not much traualic nor bestowe any cost. And therfore he hath sound a third order.
Hillarius. There doth lack but one, but y• there should be as many as of y• orders 1of the beggars. But they have it already. For y• Limb is, for y• fourth order.
Hillarius. There doth lacke but one, but y• ther should be as many as of y• orders 1of ye beggers. But they haue it already. For y• Limbe is, for y• fourth order.
Theophilus. Therefore hath he begun in a lucky hour, yea a sithens y• time of Augustin, to forge the Purgatory: although y• then, it was not received nor allowed, as an article of faith, but they disputed only, as of an opinion, which hath some colour & show. For although y• S. Augustin moved y• question, & touched some thing y• matter, 1yet nevertheless he hath determined or concluded nothing for certain, but rather to y• contrary. He hath written, y• there were some which did think that there was a certain fire of Purgatory, & that the thing was not incredible. But yet nevertheless, he •urst not affirm it, but spake of it as of a thing doubtful and incertein: notwithstanding that he ••emeth to be of an opinion, that the prayers made for the ⟨p. 182⟩dead, did profit them. But when all shall be well considered, what witness or what example doth he allege out of the holy Scripture, either of the old or new testament, sufficient for to prove and confirm that doctrine? I• he show forth unto me y• custom of the ancient Church, & the traditions of the Apostles, I will demand upon the same the witness or example of the holy scripture, or of the primitive Church. For I am certain he shall not find it. It is then necessary, that we do come to the next age, as was the time of Tertullian, Ireneus and other like: and afterwards from 2thence unto the same of Cyprian. For I have already proved by their writings, that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead, as they were after the time of Saint Augustin. For they did them not to the intent to help & succour the dead, but they directed them unto God only, for to give him praise & for to demand his grace & mercy towards the living:
Theophilus. Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre, ye a sithens y• time of Augustin, to forge the Purgatory: although y• thē, it was not receiued nor allowed, as an article of faith, but they disputed only, as of an opinion, which hath some colour & shew. For although y• S. Augustin moued y• questiō, & touched some thing y• matter, 1yet neuerthelesse he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein, but rather to y• contrary. He hath writtē, y• ther were some which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of Purgatory, & that the thing was not incredible. But yet neuerthelesse, he •urst not affirme it, but spake of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein: notwithstanding that hee ••emeth to bee of an opinion, that the prayers made for the ⟨p. 182⟩dead, did profit them. But when all shal be well considered, what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture, either of the olde or new testament, sufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine? I• he shewe foorth vnto me y• custome of the aūcient Church, & the traditions of the Apostles, I will demaunde vpon the same the witnes or example of the holy scripture, or of the primitiue Church. For I am certeine he shall not finde it. It is then necessary, that we do come to the next age, as was the time of Tertulian, Ireneus and other like: and afterwards from 2thence vnto the same of Cyprian. For I haue already proued by their writings, that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead, as they were after the time of Sainct Augustin. For they did them not to the intent to helpe & succour the dead, but they directed them vnto God only, for to giue him prayse & for to demaund his grace & mercy towards the lyuing:
1The question of […].The question of 〈…〉.
2The time of Tertullian and Cyprian.The time of Tertul••n and Cyprian.
even as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w•ich were done about their Sepulchres, to the glory of God & consolation of the living, have b•ne converted & changed to y• invocation of saints, & they have made Idols of them, so the commemoration which is done of other that be dead, hath been changed into meritorious prayers, for to draw them from pain, & successively sithence that one hath learned the custom to make a certain remembrance & mention in y• ecclesiastical assemblies they came afterward to y• point to make y• commemoration in y• supper 1for to witness y• they held them of whom in y• same they made remembrance for true faithful & catholic, & of y• communion of saints which in y• supper is repres•t•d. […] y• same manner ought we to understand y• which S. Augustin hath written of y• remembrance which they celebrated for y• dead, in the sacrifice of y• altar & of a mediator, by which we ought not to understand a sacrifice, in which Jesus christ our only mediator 2is offered to god his •ather, for y• redemption of our souls, as he was offered upon y• tr•e of y• cross, & after y• manner as y• priests do glory & boast themselves at this present time to offer in their Mass, according to y• witness of their Canon. ⟨image 189⟩For there is but one such Sacrifice, the which Jesus hath 3once offered, which of none other can be done, but of him alone, who is the Priest and everlasting bishop, after the order of Melchizedec, if we will not be lye the holy Ghost, who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle.
euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w•ich were done about their Sepuleres, to the glory of God & consolation of the liuing, haue b•ne conuerted & chaunged to y• inuocation of saincts, & they haue made Idols of thē, so the cōmemoration which is done of other that be dead, hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers, for to draw thé from paine, & successiuely sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certein remēbrance & mention in y• ecclesiastical assibles thei came afterward to y• point to make y• cōmemoration in y• supper 1for to witnes y• they held thē of whō in y• same they made remēbrance for true faithful & catholicke, & of y• cōmunion of saints which in y• supper is repres•t•d. 〈…〉 y• same manner ought we to vnderstád y• which S. Augustin hath writté of y• remēbrance which they celebrated for y• dead, in the sacrifice of y• aulter & of a mediator, by which we ought not to vnderstād a sacrifice, in which Iesus christ our only mediator 2is offred to god his •ather, for y• rediption of our souls, as he was offred vpō y• tr•e of y• crosse, & after y• manner as y• priests do glory & boast thēselues at this present time to offer in their Masse, according to y• witnes of their Canon.
1Remembrance of the de •• in the supper.Remembraunce of the de •• in the supper.
2The sacrifice of the altar & of a mediator.The sacrifice of the aulter & of a mediator.
Theophilus. Thou oughtest to understand 1that there be two sorts of Sacrifices, which do comprehend all y• other. The first is y• sacrifice of reconciliation & redemption, for to deliver the sinners from the ire and wrath of God: But this appertaineth but to Jesus Christ alone, of whom y• Levitical sacrifices were but a shadow 2and figure. The other is y• sacrifice of praise & thanks giving, by which we may comprehend all y• works of the faithful, by which they do praise God, and do travail to 3be joined unto him. As Saint Augustine doth expound it. Now forasmuch as the sacrament of the holy supper of our Lord, is one of the principal things that the church 4hath, for to glorify God, rightly it was called by the ancients, sacrifice, as not long ago hath been touched: not by reason that Jesus Christ is offered unto God by us: But because that he offereth himself unto us, and that through faith we receive it, and render unto him it, ankes for the great benefit that he hath done for us, giving himself to the death for us: and we confess and protest, that we do not take nor hold any other for a saviour then he only, nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his. For that cause hath the supper in like manner been called Eucharistia by the Greeks: The which word signifieth giving of 5thanks. After the same manner have Saint Augustine and other ancient Doctors of the Church understanded it. And they understand not by the altar any other thing 6but the table upon which y• Church hath used to celebrate the supper, making allusion unto the altars of the ancient law and have regard to that sacrifice of thanks giving, which in the supper is offered unto god by his church. Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that ⟨p. 183⟩point, in the time of Saint Augustine, which was about 7four hundred years after the death and passion of Jesus Christ, in which the church did begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted.
Theophilus. Thou oughtest to vnderstand 1that there bee two sortes of Sacrifices, whiche doe comprehend all y• other. The first is y• sacrifice of reconciliation & redemption, for to deliuer the sinners from the yre and wrath of God: But this apperteyneth but to Iesus Christ alone, of whom y• Leuiticall sacrifices wer but a shadow 2and figure. The other is y• sacrifice of praise & thanks giuing, by which we may comprehend al y• workes of the faithfull, by which they do prayse God, and doe trauiale to 3be ioyned vnto him. As Sainct Augustine doth expounde it. Now forasmuche as the sacrament of the holye supper of our Lord, is one of the principall things that the church 4hath, for to glorifie God, rightly it was called by the auncients, sacrifice, as not long agoe hath bene touched: not by reason that Iesus Christe is offred vnto God by vs: But bicause that he offreth himselfe vnto vs, and that thorow faith we receiue it, and render vnto him it, ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs, giuing himselfe to the death for vs: and we confesse and protest, that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a sauiour then hée onely, nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his. For that cause hath the supper in like manner bene called Eucharistia by the Greeks: The which word signifieth giuing of 5thankes. After the same manner haue Sainct Augustine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderstanded it. And they vnderstand not by the aulter any other thinge 6but the table vpon which y• Church hath vsed to celebrate the supper, making allusion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that sacrifice of thankes gyung, which in the supper is offred vnto god by his church. Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that ⟨p. 183⟩poynt, in the tyme of Sainct Augustine, which was about
1[…] sorts of […] The sacrifice of reconciliation.〈…〉 sortes of 〈…〉 The sacrifice of reconciliation.
2The sacrifice of thanks givingThe sacrifice of thankes giuing
3August. li. 10. de ciut. Dei. c. •. 6
4But sacrifice the supper is.
5Eucharis•ia.
6The material […] of the Church.The materiall 〈…〉 of the Church.
For after that one once had begun to mingle the commemoration of the dead with that of Jesus Christ (for which only the supper is celebrated, not for sinful men, who have not redeemed us by their death) from one opinion and error, it is fallen into another, in such sort that men are fallen into such dreaming, that they have thought that y• supper, to the which those that were a live did communicate, did profit the dead, and that they might take it for them, and to their health & salvation, after the same manner as they did the other suffrages in their name.
For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Iesus Christe (for which onely the supper is celebrated, not for sinfull men, who haue not redemed vs by their death) from one opinion and error, it is fallen into another, in suche sorte that men are fallen into such dreaming•, that they haue thought that y• supper, to the which those that were a lyue dyd cōmunicate, dyd profyt the dead, and that they might take it for them, and to their health & saluation, after the same manner as they dyd the other suffrages in theyr name.
Hillarius. If we will understand that which saint Paul hath written of the Corinthians, which 1baptised themselves for the dead, after the sense in which the ancients have taken it, we should have no less reason to excuse them, then those here. For if I may take the supper for an other man, wherefore may I not in like manner be baptised for him? I think that they will not grant we that, that one may be baptised for an other, and that 2that baptism doth profit him, and yet less to the dead then to the living.
Hillarius. If we will vnderstand that which saint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians, which 1baptised themselues for the dead, after the sence in which the auncients haue taken it, we should haue no lesse reason to excuse them, then those here. For if I may take the supper for an other man, wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptised for him? I thinke that they will not graunte we that, that one may be baptised for an other, and that 2that baptisme doth profite him, and yet lesse to the dead then to the lyuing.
1To take the supper for y• dead. 1. Cor. 15. d. 29
2Baptism for the dead.Baptisme for the dead.
1511–1571
ReformersLausanne/Geneva
Reformer of Lausanne and colleague of Calvin.
Transcription key
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••p••sse remēbrance, of some Saints & Saint•s. And afterwards by little & little, in st•ede of y• simple cōmmoration which is done of y• Saincts & Sanctes, they haue begun to giue vnto euery one of 〈…〉, his Masse al whelly, insomuch y• there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes, but hath one, & that they do cal vpon it in steed of God, & vnto whom y• Priests haue not giuen some occupacion & office for to helpe & aide God in so many affaires. And after y• sathan hath so well augmented his stuffe, vnder y• title of Martyrs, & of their Cēmemorations, to y• ende y• nothing should remaine, but y• it should be ful of •dolatry & superstition, he hath also loūd y• meanes to make mé muse after y• are dead, after an other manner.
⟨image 189⟩
For there is but one such Sacrifice, the whiche Iesus hath
once offered, which of none other can be done, but of him alone, who is the Priesse and euerlasting bishop, after the order of Melchizedec, if we wil not be lye the holy Ghost, who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle.
