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A14462:128

:127p. 39

¶ Of the mean and order that princes should keep in judgement of things, appertaining to Religion, and to the reformation of the same.

¶ Of the meane and order that princes should kepe in iudgement of thinges, appertaining to Religion, and to the reformation of the same.

:128p. 39–40§38

T. All those things do confirm the opinion of those that will commit all things y• touch Religion, to those that are called men of the Church, without dealing therein them selves. D. If thou diddest well understand me, I did not conclude that princes, & other men should so address them, to the Ministers of the Church, in matters of Religion & conscience, that they should not deal therein so far as their office should require, and to ⟨p. 40⟩take good heed to what kind of men they came: least that in stead of coming to the true Prophets of God and Ministers of Jesus Christ, they should address them to false Prophets and Ministers of Antichrist, as often times it happeneth. T. This matter is perilous. D. Therefore, as those men are greatly to be blamed, that make none account of the true Ministers of God, and of his Church, but will govern the Church, and determine of those things which appertain to the reformation of the same, following their own fantasy and opinion, or else as though they had to determine of some worldly policy: even so on the contrary part, these kind of men, are greatly to be blamed, which will not deal in it at all, but suffer others to determine of it even as it pleaseth them, and are ready to execute that which others shall appoint, without having any consideration of the thing them selves. But even as shall please the others, without due examining and understanding what they do. For, as the first sort usurp a great tyranny over the Church, and over the Ministry of the same, like unto that of the Antichrist, who hath plucked to him self the authority to dispose of the Church at his pleasure: in like manner this last sort do wrong to them selves, and do frame and establish a derye dangerous tyranny, both against them selves, & against the whole Church, and do confirm Antichrist in the possession which he hath all ready usurped over them. For albeit that a judge, before he give sentence, and before he will execute the same, do ask the advise and counsel of his assistants, yet doth he not give his judgement according to their sentences, until he have well examined and understood them. Otherwise he should put him self in great danger, and his office should not be greatly differing from the office of a hang man.

T. ALl those things do confirme the opiniō of those yt wil cōmit all things y• touch Religion, to those yt are called mē of the Church, without dealing therin thē selues. D. Yf thou diddest wel vnderstād me, I did not cōclude yt princes, & other men should so addresse thē, to the Ministers of ye Church, in matters of Religiō & cōscience, that they should not deale therin so far as their office should require, and to ⟨p. 40⟩take good hede to what kinde of men they came: least that in stede of commyng to the true Prophetes of God and Ministers of Iesus Christe, they should addresse them to false Prophetes and Ministers of Antechriste, as often tymes it happeneth. T. This matter is perillous. D. Therefore, as those men are greatly to be blamed, that make none accoumpt of the true Ministers of God, and of hys Churche, but wyll gouerne the Churche, and determine of those thynges which appertayne to the reformation of the same, folowing their own fantasie and opinion, or els as though they had to determine of some worldly policie: euen so on the contrarie part, these kinde of men, are greatly to be blamed, whiche will not deale in it at all, but suffer others to determine of it euen as it pleaseth them, and are ready to execute that whiche others shall appoynte, without hauynge any consideration of the thynge them selues. But euen as shall please the others, without due examynyng and vnderstandynge what they do. For, as the firste sorte vsurpe a greate tyranny ouer the Churche, and ouer the Ministerie of the same, lyke vnto that of the Antichriste, who hath plucked to hym selfe the authoritie to dispose of the Churche at hys pleasure: in lyke maner this laste sorte do wronge to them selues, and do frame and establishe a derye daungerous tyrannye, both agaynst them selues, & agaynste the whole Church, and do confirme Antechriste in the possession whiche he hathe all ready vsurped ouer them. For albeit that a iudge, before he gyue sentence, and before he wyll execute the same, do aske the aduise and counsell of hys assistauntes, yet doth he not gyue hys iudgemente accordynge to theyr sentences, vntil he haue wel examined and vnderstood them. Otherwise he should put him selfe in greate daunger, and hys office should not be greatly differyng from the office of a hange man.

:129p. 40–41§38

For the hang man doth not assist in the council of the judges, he giveth no sentence, he hath no voice, nor meddleth with their process ⟨p. 41⟩or causes of those that are delivered into his hands: he hath nothing to do but only to execute that which is given him in charge. But a judge, hath far other authority and greater charge, the which Pilate did very well know. And therefore he would not condemn Jesus Christ upon the only report of the Jews, when they had brought him unto him, all ready condemned in their Council: nor was forthwith priest to command him to be executed as an evil doer, according to their desire, but did diligently enquire of the causes, for the which they would have him to be condemned: giving them plainly to understand, that he would not be their hangmen, but would do the office of a Judge, which is duly to examine the cause. And if he see the sentence of his assistants to be unjust, he ought not to follow it, but to reject it, according to the authority that God hath given him: and he ought to put in use that, which is written in the law to ¹that same purpose. Thou shalt not follow the multitude, to do evil, for if he give sentence contrary to right and equity, he shall make answer for the same before God. For if he know it be unjust, and do consent and agree to it, or else do dissemble the matter, or else through negligence he hath not sought to understand the truth of it. he can not excuse himself but that he is greatly culpable before God. T. That is very true.

For the hange man doth not assiste in the counsell of the iudges, he gyueth no sentence, he hath no voyce, nor medleth with theyr processe ⟨p. 41⟩or causes of those that are delyuered into hys handes: he hath nothing to do but only to execute that which is gyuen hym in charge. But a iudge, hathe farre other authoritie and greater charge, the whiche Pilate dyd very well knowe. And therefore he woulde not condemne Iesus Christe vpon the onely reporte of the Iewes, when they had brought hym vnto hym, all ready condemned in theyr Counsell: nor was forthwith preste to commaunde hym to be executed as an euill doer, accordynge to their desire, but did diligently enquire of the causes, for the which they would haue hym to be condemned: gyuing them playnely to vnderstande, that he woulde not be their hangemen, but woulde do the office of a Iudge, whiche is duely to examine the cause. And if he see the sentence of hys assistauntes to be vniuste, he oughte not to folowe it, but to reiecte it, accordyng to the authoritie that God hath gyuen hym: and he ought to put in vse that, whiche is written in the lawe to

:130p. 41

¶ Howe men ought to have greater care for those matters that appertain to Religion: then for any others, and the reasons why.

¶ Hovve men ought to haue greater care for those matters that appertayne to Religion: then for any others, and the reasons vvhy.

:131p. 41–42§39

D. Moreover, the case in matters of Religion is not like to that of other matters, or of other arts, sciences, occupations and estates. For when there is question in matters of Religion, we have not a matter in hand of a piece of money, or of a piece of land, or for an other man which toucheth not us at all. But a matter of the greatest importance, ⟨p. 42⟩that may be, and toucheth all men in general and in particular, so near, as nothing in the world doth so nearly touch them. If there were question, of a piece of an earthly inheritance, or else of our honour & fame, we would not so greatly put others in trust, but that we would put to our own hand: & would know in what sort the matter should pass. And further, if it were a matter that touched our life, we would not sleep the matter, but would be so much that more careful, we would leave no mean unsought for, that might stand us in stead. T. Experience teacheth it plainly. D. Now in this matter, whereof we speak, the question is of the greatest honour or dishonour that ever may happen unto us: here is the question of a marvellous great honour & glory, or else of an extreme shame & confusion, which we shall once receive, before the face of God, & before all men which ever have ben, are, or shall be, this question is of an eternal inheritance: to wit, of Paradise or else of hell, here is the question of our death, or of our life, not only temporal, but eternal, Wherefore I do greatly marvel of those that have so great trust in the sound faith of their Curates, Priests, Monks, Bishops and Prelates, which commit them wholly into their hands, both body and soul. T. There are no small number of those that do so.

D. MOreouer, the case in matters of Religion is not lyke to that of other matters, or of other artes, sciences, occupations and estates. For whē there is question in matters of Religion, we haue not a matter in hand of a péece of money, or of a péece of lande, or for an other man whiche toucheth not vs at all. But a matter of the greatest importance, ⟨p. 42⟩that may be, and toucheth all men in generall and in particular, so neare, as nothynge in the worlde doth so nearely touch them. Yf there were question, of a péece of an earthly inheritaunce, or els of our honor & fame, we would not so greatly put others in trust, but yt we wold put to our own hād: & would know in what sort ye matter should passe. And further, if it wer a matter yt touched our life, we would not slepe the matter, but would be so much yt more carefull, we would leaue no meane vnsought for, yt myght stand vs in stede. T. Experiēce teacheth it plainly. D. Nowe in this matter, wherof we speake, ye question is of ye greatest honor or dishonor yt euer may happē vnto vs: here is ye questiō of a maruelous great honor & glory, or els of an extreme shame & confusion, whiche we shall once receaue, before the face of God, & before al mē which euer haue ben, are, or shalbe, this questiō is of an eternall inheritaūce: to wit, of Paradise or els of hell, here is the questiō of our death, or of our life, not onely tēporal, but eternal, Wherfore I do gretly maruel of those yt haue so great trust in ye sond fayth of their Curates, Priestes, Monckes, Byshops and Prelates, whiche cōmitte thē wholly into their handes, both body and soule. T. There are no small nomber of those that do so.

:132p. 42

¶ Of those men that make greater account of their purses, then of their consciences, and of the danger into the which they cast themselves, that commit such charge to false teachers, and they them selves to have no great regard to the same.

¶ Of those men that make greater accoumpt of their purses, then of their consciences, and of the daūger into the which they cast thēselues, that cōmit such charge to false teachers, and they them selues to haue no great regard to the same.

:133p. 42–43§40

D. I Would gladly understand of those men, if they would in the like sort trust them with their purses, & never ask them any account, nor never have regard, to their government. T. I do not believe it. For there is no prince nor other, that committeth the charge of his affairs to others, but that sometime he will know, in what sort they are passed & done. D. Then their purse is dearer unto them, than is their conscience or their soul, ⟨p. 43⟩or else yt inheritance of the kingdom of heaven: for they put their trust in such, & commit the whole charge of their consciences, & souls to those, that they would hardly trust for a couple of crowns: they esteem very slenderly, yt price which our Lord Jesus Christ hath payed for them, which is much more precious ¹than all the gold & all the silver, that ever was in the world. T. They do trust, as I have already said, that these men shall answer for them. D. It is very true that they shall answer, but so much the worse for those for whom they shall answer: for so much as they shall not by means thereof, be acquitted of the debt: for if it must needs be shall, that they answer, for default of that debt which they owe to our great Lord, which shall not be paid unto him, according as their office doth require, it shall be them for that the same is lost. The Lord speaking of this matter, saith by his Prophet Ezekiel, that he ²will require at yt hands of the shepherd, the blood of the sheep which shall perish through his default, it followeth then, that the sheep shall be lost, whose blood the lord will require. When a murderer hath slain a man, & is taken upon the same, he must ³satisfy the justice with his own life: yet notwithstanding the pain, which he shall endure shall be small recompense, to him that is slain. Wherefore I do not think, that those men which make so small account of the life of their souls, would lose their bodily life, for such a price. T. I am of your opinion. D. If a man do us wrong, either in spoiling us of our worldly goods, or else in using any violence against our persons, and we endure the same patiently for the honour of God: this same shall be no loss unto us before God, but a great profit, for God hath promised, great reward to those that shall suffer wrongfully. In this behalf none shall sustain the loss, but he only that

:134p. 43–44§40

for he hath hurt his soul and there is no hurt that can so hurt a man, as can that hurt. But in this matter whereof we do now speak, the soul is not only hurt, but slain: wherefore the loss can ⟨p. 44⟩never be recovered. And therefore I would wish that such as are of that opinion, should well consider that which Jesus Christ said, let them alone, for they are blind, and leaders of the blind: If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the dyke. He doth not say that the blind guide ¹shall alone fall into the dyke, but he also that shall be led by him: wherefore that counsel is best to be followed which Jesus Christ him self doth give in that behalf, in the same passage or text, he doth not say: Follow such leaders, and if they lead you wrong, they shall endure the punishment for you, •nd you shall go free: but he giveth expressed commandment to flee from them, declaring plainly in what peril they put them selves, that follow such guides.

for he hathe hurte hys soule and there is no hurte that can so hurte a man, as can that hurte. But in thys matter whereof we doo nowe speake, the soule is not onely hurte, but slayne: wherefore the losse can ⟨p. 44⟩neuer be recouered. And therefore I would wishe that such as are of that opinion, should well consider that whiche Iesus Christ sayd, let them alone, for they are blynd, and leaders of the blinde: If the blynde leade the blynde, both shall fall into the dyke. He doth not saye that the blynde guyde ¹shall alone fall into the dyke, but he also that shalbe led by hym: wherefore that councell is best to be folowed whiche Iesus Christe hym selfe doth gyue in that behalfe, in the same passage or texte, he doth not say: Folow such leaders, and if they lead you wronge, they shall endure the punishement for you, •nd you shall go free: but he gyueth expressed commaundement to flee from them, declaryng playnely in what perill they put them selues, that folow such guides.

:135p. 44

¶ Of the care that every man ought to have, to know the way of salvation, and how they ought to beware of false Prophets and seducers of the people.

¶ Of the care that euerye man ought to haue, to knovve the vvay of saluation, and hovv they ought to bevvare of false Prophetes and seductors of the people.

:136p. 44–45§41

T. Then we ought not to be so careless, but that we must enquire of that same way by the which we should pass, to the end that we might easily know, if that in stead of leading us in the right way, they should lead us wrong. D. It is very true: and also we ought not to be so rash and foolish, that we should suddenly take guides and conductors, without having any knowledge or testimony of them. For if we should but pass through a wood, or some other passage which were hard and difficile, we would not take a man at adventure to be our guide, of whom we could not assure us, least that in stead of guiding us the right way, he should bring us into the laps of thieves to cut our throats, as it happeneth oftentimes to many. T. Yet not withstanding, this way, which we must pass, is the most dangerous of all: for there needeth no great straying, to loose us all. D. Therefore it is more needful to take good heed in this matter, then in any matter else. And for this cause are we so often warned in the holy Scriptures, ⟨p. 45⟩not only by the Prophets and Apostles, but also by Jesus Christ our Lord, to take heed of false Prophets, which ¹come to us in sheep's clothing, and within are ravening Wolves. This admonition is not given unto us without cause. T. That is doubtless.

T. THen we ought not to be so carelesse, but that we must enquire of that same waye by the whiche we shoulde passe, to the ende that we mighte easely knowe, if that in stede of leadyng vs in the ryght waye, they should leade vs wronge. D. It is very true: and also we ought not to be so rashe and foolish, that we should sodenly take guydes and conductors, without hauyng any knowlege or testimony of them. For if we should but passe thorow a wood, or some other passage whiche were hard and difficill, we woulde not take a man at aduenture to be our guide, of whō we could not assure vs, least that in stede of guidyng vs the right waye, he should bryng vs into the lappes of theeues to cut our throates, as it happeneth oftentimes to many. T. Yet not withstandynge, thys way, which we must passe, is the moste daungerous of al: for there nedeth no greate straying, to loose vs all. D. Therfore it is more nedefull to take good hede in this matter, then in any matter els. And for this cause are we so often warned in the holy Scriptures, ⟨p. 45⟩

:137p. 45

¶ How that the admonitions which are written in the holy Scriptures, against the false Prophets, do make them to be without excuse, that suffer them selves to be seduced by them.

¶ Hovv that the admonitions vvhich are vvritten in the holy Scriptures, agaynst the false Prophets, do make them to be vvithout excuse, that suffer them selues to be seduced by them.

:138p. 45–46§42

D. For so much then that we are all advertised, and that the spirit of God hath given us so many marks and signs, whereby to know these false Prophets, we may no more pretend ignorance in this point for our defence, then in the other matters whereof we have already spoken. For the case is not like with a Christian, in matters of Christian religion, as it is in other arts and sciences, for that it sufficeth any man, because he can not learn all arts and sciences, to learn one or two, and to be excellent in some one science. But the substance of religion is of an other nature, it is an art, it is a science and occupation, which all men ought to understand, although all men may not be of like excellency in the knowledge of the same, nor yet be sufficient to execute the office of a Prophet, or of an Apostle, or of a pastor and Doctor in the church, yet at the least every man is bound to know so much, as he may understand how to frame and govern himself according to the will of God, to know how to embrace that which is good, and to refuse that which is evil, and to know how to keep himself from false Prophets and seducers: for he that can not do this, shall pay for his ignorance, as it hath been sufficiently proved by the reasons before alleged. Wherefore every man hath great occasion before all other things, diligently to commend himself to God in these affairs, with certain affiance to be heard, for he speaketh not this in vain: seek & you shall ⟨p. 46⟩find, ask, and it shall be given unto you, knock at the door, and it shall be opened unto you, for he that seeketh, findeth, ¹and he that asketh, receiveth, and he that knocketh at the door, entereth. For the Lord is near unto those that call upon him in verity. Beside this it is earnestly required of every ²man to seek out diligently those that are good teachers, least that in steed of the shepherd, we follow the Wolfe, trimmed like a shepherd, which will devour us: for we may not through our negligence attempt God. And if we do this, having a sincere and true care for the glory of God, and for our own salvation, God will not leave us without the conduct of his holy spirit, and without provision of his goodness, according as it shall be needful for the salvation of every man, for that which Jesus Christ hath spoken, shall remain always true:

:139p. 46§42

to wit, that he that will ¹do the will of God, shall understand of his doctrine, whether it be of God or no.

to wit, that he that wil ¹do the will of God, shal vnderstand of his doctrine, whether it be of God or no.

1John. viiIohn. vii

:140p. 46

¶ Of such as always excuse them by their great business, and can never find convenient time to hearken to the word of God, and to lay their hands to his work

¶ Of suche as alvvayes excuse them by theyr great busines, and can neuer fynde conuenient tyme to hearken to the vvorde of God, and to laye their handes to his vvorke

D. I Would gladly vnderstād of those mē, if they would in the like sorte trust thē with their purses, & neuer aske thē any accōpt, nor neuer haue regard, to their gouernmēt. T. I do not beleue it. For there is no prince nor other, yt committeth ye charge of his affaires to others, but yt somtime he will know, in what sort they are passed & done. D. Thē their purse is dearer vnto thē, thē is their cōsciēce or their soule, ⟨p. 43⟩or els yt inheritaūce of ye kingdom of heauē: for they put their trust in such, & cōmit the whole charge of their cōsciences, & soules to those, that they would hardly trust for a couple of crownes: they esteme very slēderly, yt price which our Lord Iesus Christ hath payed for thē, whiche is much more precious ¹thē all the gold & all ye siluer, yt euer was in ye world. T. They do trust, as I haue already said, yt these men shal aunwere for thē. D. It is very true yt they shal aūswere, but so much ye worse for those for whō they shall aunswere: for so much as they shall not by meanes therof, be acquited of the det: for if it must needes be shall, that they aunswere, for default of that debt whiche they owe to our greate Lorde, whiche shall not be payd vnto him, according as their office doth require, it shalbe thē for that the same is lost. The Lord speaking of this matter, saith by his Prophet Ezechiel, yt he ²wil require at yt hāds of the shepherd, the bloud of the shepe which shal perish through his default, it foloweth thē, yt the shepe shalbe lost, whose blud ye lord wil require. Whē a murderer hath slayne a man, & is taken vpon the same, he must ³satisfie the iustice with hys own lyfe: yet notwithstandyng the payne, whiche he shall endure shalbe small recompense, to hym that is slayne. Wherfore I do not thinke, that those men whiche make so small accoumpte of the lyfe of theyr soules, woulde lose their bodely lyfe, for such a price. T. I am of your oppinion. D. If a man do vs wrong, either in spoylynge vs of our worldlye goods, or els in vsinge any violence agaynste our personnes, and we endure the same patiently for the honoure of God: this same shalbe no losse vnto vs before God, but a great profite, for God hath promised, great rewarde to those that shall suffer wrongfully. In this behalfe none shal sustayn the losse, but he onely that ⁴hathe done the wronge:

D. FOr so much then that we are all aduertised, and that the spirit of God hath geuen vs so many markes and signes, wherby to knowe these false Prophets, we may no more pretende ignoraunce in thys poynte for our defence, then in the other matters wherof we haue already spoken. For the case is not lyke with a Christian, in matters of Christian religion, as it is in other artes and sciences, for that it sufficeth any man, because he cā not learne all artes and sciences, to learne one or two, and to be excellent in some one science. But the substance of religiō is of an other nature, it is an arte, it is a science and occupation, which al men ought to vnderstand, although all men may not be of like excellencie in ye knowledge of the same, nor yet be sufficient to execute the office of a Prophet, or of an Apostle, or of a pastour and Doctor in the church, yet at the least euery mā is bound to knowe so much, as he may vnderstand how to frame and gouerne himself according to the wil of God, to know how to embrace that which is good, and to refuse that which is euill, and to knowe how to kepe himself from false Prophets and seducers: for he that cā not do this, shall paye for his ignoraunce, as it hath bene sufficiently proued by the reasons before alledged. Wherefore euery man hath great occasion before al other things, diligently to cōmend himself to God in these affayres, with certaine affiaunce to be heard, for he speaketh not this in vayne: seeke & you shall ⟨p. 46⟩find, aske, and it shall be geuē vnto you, knocke at the doore, and it shall be opened vnto you, for he that seeketh, findeth, ¹and he that asketh, receaueth, and he that knocketh at the doore, entreth. For the Lord is nere vnto those that call vpon him in veritye. Beside this it is earnestlye requyred of euery ²man to seeke out diligentlye those that are good teathers, least that in steed of the shepeheard, we followe the Wolfe, trymmed lyke a shepeheard, which wil deuoure vs: for we may not through our negligence attempt God. And if we do this, hauing a sincere and true care for the glorye of God, and for our own saluation, God will not leaue vs without the conducte of his holy spirite, and without prouision of his goodnes, according as it shall be nedefull for the saluation of euery man, for that which Iesus Christ hath spoken, shall remayne alwayes true: