The first part of the Christian instruction, and general so[m]me of the doctrine, contained…The firste parte of the Christian instruction, and generall so[m]me of the doctrine, conteyned…

¶ In what sort we may esteem men for masters and teachers, and in what manner we are made the disciples of Jesus Christ, or of men.

¶ In vvhat sorte vve may esteme men for masters and teachers, and in vvhat maner vve are made the disciples of Iesus Christ, or of men.

T. Doth he thereby forbid us, to have masters to teach us, and to call those masters of whom we receive instruction? D. How should he forbid it, considering it is he him self, that doth teach us by them that are nothing else, but the ministers of his grace, by whom he, which is our chief master, doth declare him self to us: wherefore should he else have sent his Prophets, Apostles, and disciples, to teach and preach his holy Gospel unto us? would he not that we should hear those that he sendeth unto us, as if it were him self in proper person, that speaketh to us, and doth teach us? Wherefore said he then to his Apostles, he that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that refuseth and despiseth you, refuseth & ¹despiseth me? and after immediately he showeth the reason: For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your heavenly father that speaketh in you. T. What is there to be understood by these? how may we both have, and not have, masters upon the earth. D. If by hearing those that he sendeth unto us, we receive the doctrine which they preach unto us, and believe the same, not for their sake that speak unto us, ne yet for their great authority and appearance, neither for the opinion that we have of them, either to please them, or else to receive some worldly honour or profit at their hands: but only because it is the pure and true word of God, and that we hear yt voice of Jesus Christ our shepherd, through their mouth: being certain and assured by his holy spirit, that it is he that speaketh in them: we are not then the disciples of men, but of Christ. And then is that same fulfilled in us, which our Lord Jesus Christ allegeth of the Prophet Isaiah, and that which he him self expoundeth in the Gospel of S. John: And thy sons shall be all taught ²of God. Then who soever hath heard, and learned of the father, ⟨p. 101⟩cometh to me. For when we believe, having been so taught by God, it is for his sake, that we do receive the doctrine, ³and we take him for our master, and not the men: all beit that he doth communicate his name unto them, because that they are his servants and ministers: as the name of God is given unto Judges, Prophets, and to the elect of God, because that the Image of his majesty & justice doth shine and is present in them, although they be continually men, and not Gods. And on the contrary:

T. DOth he therby forbid vs, to haue masters to teach vs, and to call those masters of whom we receiue instruction? D. How should he forbid it, consideryng it is he hym selfe, that doth teache vs by them that are nothyng els, but the ministers of his grace, by whom he, whiche is our chiefe master, doth declare him selfe to vs: wherfore should he els haue sent his Prophets, Apostles, and disciples, to teach and preache his holy Gospell vnto vs? would he not yt we should heare those that he sendeth vnto vs, as if it were hym self in proper person, that speaketh to vs, and doth teach vs? Wherfore sayd he then to his Apostles, he that receiueth you receiueth me, and he that refuseth and despiseth you, refuseth & ¹despiseth me? and after immediatly he sheweth the reason: For it is not you that speake, but the spirite of your heauenly father that speaketh in you. T. What is there to be vnderstode by these? how may we both haue, and not haue, masters vpon the earth. D. Yf by hearynge those that he sendeth vnto vs, we receiue the doctrine whiche they preach vnto vs, and beleue the same, not for their sake that speake vnto vs, ne yet for their great authoritie and apparēce, neither for the opinion that we haue of them, either to please them, or els to receiue some worldly honor or profit at their hāds: but onely bycause it is the pure and true word of God, and yt we heare yt voyce of Iesus Christ our shepheard, throughe their mouth: beyng certayne and assured by his holy spirite, that it is he that speaketh in them: we are not then the disciples of men, but of Christ. And then is that same fulfilled in vs, whiche our Lorde Iesus Christe alledgeth of the Prophete Esaye, and that whiche hee him selfe expoundeth in the Gospell of S. Iohn: And thy sonnes shalbe all taught ²of God. Then who soeuer hath heard, and lerned of the father, ⟨p. 101⟩commeth to me. For when we beleue, hauyng bene so taught by God, it is for his sake, that we do receyue the doctrine, ³and we take him for our master, and not the men: all beit that he doth communicate his name vnto thē, bycause that they are his seruauntes and ministers: as the name of God is gyuen vnto Iudges, Prophetes, and to the electe of God, bycause that the Image of his maiestie & iustice doth shyne and is presente in them, although they be continually men, and not Gods. And on the contrary:

1. 1Math. x.
2. 2Isaiah. iiii• John. 6Esay. iiii• Iohn. 6
3. 3Psal. lxxx•

¶ Of the nature and virtue of true faith, and what difference there is between it and opinion.

¶ Of the nature and vertue of true fayth, and vvhat difference there is betvvene it and opinion.

T. According to this account there are mo disciples of men, then of Jesus Christ. For there are very few which have not greater regard to men, then to any thing else. D. Yet notwithstanding if it be so, their faith to say truth is no faith, but opinion, as it hath ben already declared. For seeing that it is not builded upon the authority of God, and his word, but only upon the opinion which I have of such personages, it may be no faith. For faith may have none other regard, object, subject, nor foundation, but God in Jesus Christ, & his only truth. If it have any other ⟨p. 102⟩foundation, if it be builded upon men, and upon the opinion that men shall have of them, it shall change as men do, and as the opinion doth that men have conceived. It shall fall when they fall, it shall be inconstant, variable and subject to change, even as they are. For she shall not be builded upon ¹the lively stone, which is Jesus Christ, and upon the sure foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, upon the which, the true Church must be builded, if it will endure against the gates of hell, and the whole hellish power, otherwise how may it be a faith? For these vices are as contrary to faith, as is the fire to the water. Wherefore, such as dwell upon men in this sort, and do not discern of things, nor prove the spirits whether they be of God or no, according to the Coū cell given by Saint John: What assurance may they have ²in their consciences? Whilst they are at rest, and that they be not assailed by temptations, nor wakened by the judgement of God, and that they do haunt among such as are of the same religion, that they are of, it seemeth unto them, that their faith is very sure & strong: but when they shall find them selves assailed with divers temptations, & compassed round with great dangers, & that God shall a little astone their con sciences with his judgement, they shall then find what stay they have of men, & that there is no perfect assurance, nor true quietness of conscience, but in the true faith, engendered in the hearts of men, by the very persuasion of the word & spirit of God. And if it should happen that they should be conversant among men of an other Religion, what would they then do? T. If they should be in Turkey, they would as well receive the laws of Mahomet, & refuse the Christian Religion, as the Turks do:

for they have even the same reasons and arguments to do it, as otherwise they have to accept or refuse that, which they have already received or disallowed. They would even do the like, if that they were among the Jews, or any other nation, which should hold any other religion, then the Christian. D. It is not to be doubted.

for they haue euen the same reasons and argumentes to do it, as otherwise they haue to accepte or refuse that, whiche they haue already receiued or disalowed. They would euē do the lyke, if that they were among the Iewes, or any other nation, whiche should hold any other religion, then the Christian. D. It is not to be doubted.

¶ Of the honour that is dew, to good and true teachers in the Church, and of the mean that we ought to keep, to the end that we do give neither to much, ne yet to little credit to men: & how perilous a thing it is, to trust to much to a mans own judgement.

¶ Of the honor that is devve, to good and true teachers in the Churche, and of the meane that vve ought to kepe, to the ende that vve do gyue neither to much, ne yet to little credite to men: & hovv perillous a thing it is, to trust to much to a mans ovvne iudgemente.

T. IF the matter be as thou sayest, to what purpose do the good doctors serve, which have received so many excellent gifts of God, for the edifying of his Church? D. I say not these things to despise or condemn them: for we should be to much unkind toward them, if we should condemn or despise them, considering they have taken so great pain to make the holy Scriptures more plain and easy unto us, and that by their labour we have had great commodity. They have sweat, to deliver us from a great deal of pain and travail, and have greatly holpen us with their labour, and made the way more plain for us. Also we should be to outrageous against God, if that we should despise them, blaspheming the gifts of his holy spirit which he hath bestowed among them. Wherefore, think not that I do allow the judgement of certain rash men, or favour a number of puffed proud spirits, who without any regard condemn all men, esteeming none but them selves. Because they have known that the world hath been seduced by giving to much credit to the judgements of men, and have been to light of credit, not enquiring of the truth, by the witness of the holy Scriptures, they have gone so far on the other side, that they are no less to be blamed, then those whom they do condemn. For if it be perilous to credit to much the judgements of men, so is it also dangerous, if that we give not that credit that we ought to do, to the judgements of those, which govern them selves according to the word of God. T. It is a very hard matter to keep measure and mean, and so to do thinking to avoid the one sort, of extremity and ⟨p. 104⟩peril, that we fall not more dangerously into the other. For if I give no credit to the judgement of others, but will dwell wholly upon mine own, and upon my opinion, wherein am I more worthy of praise, then they whom I do condemn? Am not I a man as they are? D. There is no doubt but if I do follow only mine own judgement, & fantasy, I follow the judgement of men, for I am no God, any more then other men are. If the others be to be blamed, because of their over much lightness, negligence, rash belief, & folly, so should I also fear that I be not subject to greater blame through folly, pride, self will & false persuasion of my self. T. Here is no small danger:

T. IF the matter be as thou sayest, to what purpose do the good doctors serue, which haue receiued so many excellent giftes of God, for the edifying of his Churche? D. I say not these thynges to despise or condempne them: for we should be to much vnkynde towarde them, if we should condempne or despise them, considerynge they haue taken so greate payne to make the holy Scriptures more playne and easie vnto vs, and that by their laboure wee haue had greate commoditie. They haue sweat, to delyuer vs from a greate deale of payne and trauayle, and haue greatlye holpen vs with their labour, and made the way more plaine for vs. Also we should be to outragious against God, if that we should despise them, blasphemyng the giftes of hys holy spirite whiche he hath bestowed among them. Wherefore, thincke not that I do alow the iudgement of certaine rashe men, or fauoure a nomber of puffed prowde spirites, who without any regarde condempne all men, esteemyng none but them selues. Bycause they haue knowē that the worlde hath bene seduced by gyuyng to much credite to the iudgementes of men, and haue bene to lyght of credite, not enquiryng of the truth, by the witnes of the holy Scriptures, they haue gone so farre on the other syde, that they are no lesse to be blamed, then those whome they do condemne. For if it bee perillous to credite to muche the iudgementes of men, so is it also daungerous, if that we gyue not that credite that we ought to do, to the iudgementes of those, which gouerne them selues accordyng to the worde of God. T. It is a very hard matter to kepe measure and meane, and so to do thinckyng to auoyde the one sorte, of extremitie and

but before all other things we ought to fear, least we stand to much in our own con- & trust to much to our own judgements & understanding, despising the judgements of others, & to be to much given and wedded to our own wills. For this vice is marvellous dangerous, & is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Schisms, which are the most dangerous pestilences, that may happen into the Church. D. Therefore have I said these things to the end that we might know how to follow that moderation, the which S. Augustine hath followed without giving more or less unto men, then faith & Christian charity may endure, yielding always to God, & to the canonical Scriptures, that honour which we do owe unto them, & taking good heed, that we give no more to Councils & to men, then to them, what appearance or show so ever they have For they that come to Councils, are men. And in that they are men: they are changeable, subject to errors and untruth. They do conclude according as the spirit is, by whom they are governed. If they be led by the spirit of God they will conclude in the favour of the truth: if they be led by the spirit of error, as were the Prophets of Ahab against Miche, they will maintain and confirm lies. ¹And by these means they, that shall follow them, shall be in very good case.

but before all other things we ought to feare, least we stand to much in our owne con- & trust to much to our owne iudgements & vnderstanding, despising the iudgementes of others, & to be to much gyuen and wedded to our own willes. For this vice is meruellous daungerous, & is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Scismes, whiche are the most daungerous pestilences, that may happen into the Church. D. Therfore haue I sayd these thinges to the ende that we mighte know how to folow that moderation, the which S. Augustine hath folowed without giuing more or lesse vnto men, then faith & Christian charitie may endure, yelding alwayes to God, & to the canonicall Scriptures, that honor which we do owe vnto thē, & taking good hede, that we gyue no more to Councels & to men, then to them, what apparēce or shew so euer they haue For they that come to Councels, are men. And in that they are men: they are chaungeable, subiecte to errors and vntruth. They do conclude accordynge as the spirite is, by whom they are gouerned. If they be led by the spirit of God they wyll conclude in the fauour of the truth: yf they be led by the spirite of error, as were the Prophetes of Achab agaynste Miche, they will maynetayne and confirme lyes.

¶ Of the difference that men ought to put between the doctrine and writings of the Apostles and Prophets, and of those that came after them, and the cause thereof.

¶ Of the difference that men ought to put betvvene the doctrine and vvritings of the Apostles and Prophets, and of those that came after them, and the cause therof.

T. I Do confess that those which come to the Councils, are men, but a man may reply, that in a lawful general Council, they are guided by the holy Ghost, and that he will not suffer them to err. S. Paul and S. John, ¹David and Ely, Isaiah and Moses, and all the Prophets and Apostles were men like unto others, subject to the same infirmities that others were, and yet S. Paul doth so authorise his doctrine (as hath been already said) that he condemneth the Angels of heaven, if they do gain say it. Wherefore they conclude, that even so as the Prophets and Apostles were men; and yet notwithstanding all their writings are without error, even so fareth it with the fathers in all their determinations and Councils. D. They conclude very evil, and speak wholly against the sentence of S. Augustin, who is as good a christian as any one. For they attribute as much to the books & ordinances of men, as to the Canonical books: whereupon we ought to consider, that albeit the Prophets and Apostles were men, yet notwithstanding there is great difference between them and those that came after them. For we are certain that they spake by the spirit of God, and that God hath not suffered any error to be mingled in their writings, because that he would they should be given and left to us for most certain rules, whereby to examine all other doctrines. There is yet an other matter beside this, which is well worthy to be noted: To wit, that if any of those by whom it hath pleased God to be served in this work, have chanced to commit any fault in their office, the spirit of God hath not hidden it, but hath manifestly declared it, to the end ye men should not so be moved with the authority of such personages, that they should follow lies in the steed of the truth, ⟨p. 106⟩and vice in the stead of virtue. We have an evident example hereof in Nathan the Prophet, who without having demanded ²at the mouth of the Lord, said of his own only authority, and proper counsel to David, that he should build the Lords house and temple, wherefore he was rebuked and corrected immediately: the next night following by the Lord, who commanded him to declare the contrary to David. We may also allege the example of the Prophet which was sent into Beth-ell and was killed by the Lyon: ³

and also that of Hely and of Jonah, & so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the which S. Paul reproved him. I leave untouched a number of others: such like. Now it standeth not so at this present with us, ne yet with the ancient doctors that were before us. For seeing that God would that this rule should be observed in his church, it could not otherwise be, but that it must be appointed by a number of books certain, or ells there would never have been any end. Seeing then that the Lord hath once appointed and allowed this rule, we may compare unto it neither book nor Council, what so ever they be. For if since the time of the Apostles there hath never been man, of what holiness or knowledge so ever he were, that hath so perfectly and well written and taught, as the Prophets and Apostles did without failing in any one thing▪ we may not think that it is otherwise in their Councils and Synodal statutes, then it is in their books. For those that write such books, be the very self and same men by whom the Councils are celebrated and holden, unto whom their advises and opinions are spoken, even as they are couched in their books. Wherefore they may as well err in the one, as in the other: we must also know that the most holy and perfect men in deed have not all the gifts of God, neither continually nor in all ages, ne yet in all things, no, not those gifts in deed which are given unto them: but that GOD doth reveal many ⟨p. 107⟩things to others, and at other times.

and also that of Hely and of Ionas, & so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the whiche S. Paule reproued him. I leaue vntouched a number of others: such lyke. Now it standeth not so at this present with vs, ne yet with the auncient doctors that were before vs. For seing that God woulde that thys rule shoulde be obserued in hys church, it coulde not otherwise be, but yt it must be appoynted by a number of bookes certayne, or ells there woulde neuer haue beene any ende. Seing then that the Lorde hath once appoynted and allowed thys rule, we maye compare vnto it neyther booke nor Councell, what so euer they bee. For if since the time of the Apostles there hath neuer beene man, of what holines or knowledge so euer he were, that hath so perfectelye and wel written and taughte, as the Prophettes and Apostles didde without faylinge in anye one thinge▪ wee maye not thincke that it is otherwise in their Councelles and Sinodall statutes, then it is in their bookes. For those that write such bookes, be the very self and same men by whom the Councells are celebrated and holden, vnto whom their aduises and opinions are spoken, euen as they are couched in their bookes. Wherefore they may as wel erre in the one, as in the other: we must also knowe that the most holy and perfecte men in deede haue not all the giftes of God, neyther continuallye nor in all ages, ne yet in all things, no, not those giftes in dede which are geuen vnto them: but that GOD doth reueale manye

¶ What rule S. Augustine giveth concerning Councils and the writings of the ancient Fathers.

¶ VVhat rule S. Augustine geueth concerning Councells and the vvritinges of the auncient Fathers.

T. Seeing it is so, it is very needful that we have some certain rule wherewith to guide us in these matters. D. I do think that we can not do better, nor follow a better rule, when any of these things come in question, then to follow the manner of proceeding that S. Augustine did use with Maximin, Bishop of the Arians, which would arm himself with the Council of Arimine, against the conclusion that was made and confirmed by the holy fathers, touching the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the Council of Nice, by the authority of the truth, as it is said, and hy the truth of authority. Tom. 6. Lib. 3. I may not now, sayeth he, allege the Council of Nice, nor thou the Council of Arimine, as for a prejudice, neither am I bound to the authority of the one, nor thou to the authority of the other. Let us debate the one matter with the other, the one cause with the other, the one reason with the other, by the authority of the Scriptures, not by proper and particular witness of every man, but by indifferent to us both. Which thing he hath also written in other places as concerning ¹the authority of the Canonical books, & agreeth very well with this. I will not, saith he, that thou embrace mine authority, to the end thou shouldest think it necessary to believe any thing, because that I have spoken it: but that thou believe the Canonical Scriptures. And again, I confess to thy charity, that I have learned to bear that honour and reverence to the only books of the Scriptures which are called Canonical, that I do believe assuredly that no one of the authors of them hath in any one jot of his writings erred. And i•••diatlye after he saith: But I read y• others in such […] what excellency of holiness and doctrine so ever be […], I ⟨p. 108⟩think not that which they say to be true because that they were of that opinion, but because that I am persuaded that that which they speak, is agreeing to the truth, either by the Canonical authors, or else by apparent reason. This is his manner of writing to Saint Hierome. And again, thou seest here how S. Augustine submitteth the writings of the ancients, and the Councils, to the word of God, and to the determinations thereof, contained in the holy Scriptures, and maketh it judge above all. T. I do find the advise of S. Augustine very good:

but me thinketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the ancient Doctors and determinations of the lawful Councils, whereof I would gladly hear the resolution. But because that we have entreated of many good points touching this matter of Councils, it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an end, to the end I may have some little time to call to my remembrance those things, whereof we have already discoursed to that purpose, and because I will not be to tedious unto thee. D. Fear not to demand of me: for there is nothing that I do more willingly. T. I know that well, but I should be to much discourteous and rude, if I should have no regard: nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy self. Moreover it is not suffii• ent for me to hear only as do many scholars, which charge them selves with moe lessons then their capacity may endure, doing nothing but hear without profiting or learning of any thing. D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest.

but me thincketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the auncient Doctors and determinations of the lawfull Councels, whereof I woulde gladlye heare the resolution. But because that we haue entreated of manye good poyntes touchyng thys matter of Councells, it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an ende, to the end I may haue some little tyme to call to my remembraunce those thinges, whereof we haue alreadye discoursed to that purpose, and because I will not be to tedious vnto thee. D. Feare not to demaunde of me: for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye. T. I know that wel, but I should be to much discourtese and rude, if I shoulde haue no regarde: nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy selfe. Moreouer it is not suffii• ent for me to heare onely as doe many scholers, whiche charge them selues with moe lessons then their capacitie may endure, doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing. D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest.