The first part of the Christian instruction, and general so[m]me of the doctrine, contained…The firste parte of the Christian instruction, and generall so[m]me of the doctrine, conteyned…

¶ Of the weaknesses that have been found at the Council of Nice, in them that were there gathered and assembled, and what holy and excellent personages there were present at the same.

¶ Of the vveakenesses that haue bene founde at the Councell of Nice, in them that vvere there gathered and assembled, and vvhat holy and excellent personages there vvere present at the same.

T. Thou speakest as yet but in general: I pray thee let us now come to particular examples. D. We spake lastly of the Council of Nice: but thinkest thou that all the decrees of the same be as well founded upon the holy Scriptures, as were the disputations, arrests and determinations which were there agreed upon against the Arians? T. I have no occasion to doubt it, if I see not the contrary. D. If all those which are named unto it, were there determined, there are some touching the discipline of the Church very superstitious & curious, and an other sort rigorous and curious enough. Moreover I see no great appearance in that which forbiddeth men to kneel, when they pray on the Sundays, and on the day of Pentecost. I leave that whereof Gracian maketh mention under the same title, concerning the consecration of temples or churches: because it is to beastly and to unworthy of such a Council. On the other part, how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the ministers of the church to use their lawful wives, yea by the common consent of all such as did there assist, directly against the word of God, if one Paphnutius had not had more of the spirit of God in that behalf, then all ¹the rest of the Council, who letted that determination, by the very word of God. Moreover in the same Council was not the Emperor Constantine greatly ashamed, to hear ⟨p. 113⟩the Bishops and pastors of the church, which were men so greatly esteemed for their doctrine and holiness of life, so to accuse the one the other (being personages of so great honesty) and to contend and outrage one an other, as it had been a number of women that had chidden. Was he not constrained to caste all their accusations and libels of evil report (which they had prepared the one against the other) in to the fire? For he well understood that these affections and particular causes which they had one against an other, should hinder the principal causes for the which they were assembled. For many of them were more affectionate to their particular causes, then to the common cause: and desired more their victory, then that of the truth. There were there, three hundred and threescore Bishops by account in that Council, the flower of Christendom:

T. THou speakest as yet but in generall: I praye thee let vs now come to particular examples. D. We spake lastly of the Councell of Nice: but thinkest thou that all the decrees of the same be as wel founded vpon the holy Scriptures, as were the disputations, arrestes and determinations which were there agreed vpon against the Arrians? T. I haue no occasion to doubt it, if I see not the contrarye. D. If all those which are named vnto it, were there determined, there are some touching the discipline of the Church very supersticious & curious, and an other sorte rigorous and curious inough. Moreouer I see no greate apparence in that which forbiddeth men to knele, when they praye on the Sondaies, and on the day of Pentecoste. I leaue that whereof Gracian maketh mencion vnder the same title, concerning the consecratiō of temples or churches: because it is to beastly and to vnworthy of such a Councell. On the other part, how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the ministers of the church to vse their lawfull wiues, yea by the common consent of all suche as dyd there assiste, directlye agaynst the worde of God, if one Paphnutius had not had more of the spirite of God in that behalfe, then all ¹the reste of the Councell, who letted that determination, by the very worde of God. Moreouer in the same Councel was not the Emperour Constantine greatly ashamed, to heare ⟨p. 113⟩the Bishops and pastours of the church, which were men so greatly estemed for their doctrine and holynes of life, so to accuse the one the other (being personages of so greate honestie) and to contend and outrage one an other, as it had bene a number of women that had chidden. Was he not constrained to caste all their accusations and libells of euil report (which they had prepared the one against the other) in to the fire? For he well vnderstoode that these affections and particular causes which they had one agaynste an other, shoulde hinder the principal causes for the which they were assembled. For many of them were more affectionate to their particular causes, then to the common cause: and desired more theyr victorie, then that of the truth. There were there, three hundred and threscore Byshops by accompte in that Councell, the flower of Christendome:

1. 1Hist. trip. li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euseb. hist. eccl. li 10. •Hist. trip. li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euseb. hist. ec•l. li 10. •

among whom was this Paphnutius, a Bishop of Egypt, of whom we have already spoken, a very man of God who had endured much for the truth, and had the gift of miracle. Spiridion Bishop, of Cypre, who was a very excellent personage, there was in like sort present: Paul Neocharien Martyr, who had both his hands burnt in the persecution, of Maximian, and many other such like who had the gift of miracle, and had behaved them selves valiantly and constantly in that persecution, if then the imperfections, weaknesses and affections were so great among the Bishops, in such a company, that Constantine was all amazed and ashamed, to see at such a time, that so worthy personages should show them selves, in such sort men, and so subject to their affections: let us then think what might be in our time, and what assistance of the holy Ghost we may hope: for in such a company as shall there assemble. T. It is easy to discern.

amonge whom was thys Paphnutius, a Byshop of Egipte, of whom wee haue alreadye spoken, a very man of God who had endured muche for the truth, and had the gifte of myracle. Spiridion Bishop, of Cypre, who was a very excellent personnage, there was in lyke sorte present: Paule Neocharien Martyr, who had both hys handes burnte in the persecution, of Maximian, and many other suche lyke who had the gifte of miracle, and had behaued them selues valiauntly and constauntly in that persecution, if then the imperfections, weakenesses and affections wer so great among the Byshoppes, in suche a companie, that Constantine was all amased and ashamed, to see at suche a tyme, that so worthy personnages shoulde shewe them selues, in suche sorte men, and so subiecte to their affections: let vs then thincke what myght bee in our tyme, and what assistaunce of the holy Ghost wee may hope: for in suche a companie as shall there assemble. T. It is easie to discerne.

¶ Of the great contrarieties, discords & dissentions that have ben in many of the ancient Councils, between the Bishops, and the Ministers of the Church.

¶ Of the greate contearieties, discordes & dissentiōs that haue ben in many of the auncient Councels, betvvene the Byshops, and the Ministers of the Churche.

D. Let us proceed: and for greater proof of that which we have said, let men see in the histories of the Church what the partialities, the bands and dissentions of the Bishops have done, in the Councils holden in Tyr, in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Sirmie, and at Constantinople. Moreover ¹how hath the Council of Alexandria troubled that of Calcedonie, and the Council of Antioch, that of Ephesus. There arose so great trouble in Christendom, and it was so divided and was so full of sects, Schisms, heresies and humane affections, that if men should have given more place to the favour of Emperors, kings and princes, to the assembles of Popes and Bishops, to the authority of Councils, to the art and eloquence of Orators, to the subtlety & understanding of Philosophers, than to the truth, it had ben needful to have abrogated, cased, undone, and abolished, that which had ben agreed, determined and holily confessed for Christ, and for the Christian doctrine, in the Councils of Nice, Milan, Sardice, Corduba and such like, many other Councils, which were holden after them, would have overthrown all that ever was determined and agreed upon in them, which had not much less appearance then the others. If they had not so much or more. And the matters whereof the differences did grow, were of no small importance. For there was question of the divinity of Christ against ²the Arians, for the which the Bishops of the East and West did celebrate & hold Councils, the one against the other, the one sort condemning the cause and doctrine of the Arians, the other sort approving and maintaining the same.

D. LEt vs procede: and for greater proofe of that whiche we haue said, let men see in the hystories of ye Church what the partialities, the bandes and dissentions of the Bishops haue done, in the Councels holden in Tyr, in Ierusalem, in Antioche, in Sirmie, and at Constantinople. Moreouer ¹howe hath the Councell of Alexandrie troubled that of Calcedonie, and the Councell of Antioche, that of Ephesus. There arose so great trouble in Christendome, and it was so denided and was so full of sectes, Scismes, heresies and humane affections, that if men shoulde haue gyuen more place to the fauour of Emperors, kinges and princes, to the assembles of Popes and Bishops, to the authoritie of Councels, to the arte and eloquence of Orators, to the subtilitie & vnderstandyng of Philosophers, thē to the truth, it had ben nedefull to haue abrogated, cassed, vndone, and abolished, that whiche had ben agreed, determined and hollyly confessed for Christe, and for the Christian doctrine, in the Councels of Nice, Millane, Sardice, Corduba and such like, many other Councels, whiche were holden after them, would haue ouerthrowē all that euer was determined and agreed vpon in them, which had not much lesse apparence then the others. Yf they had not so much or more. And the matters wherof the differences did growe, were of no small importaunce. For there was question of the diuinitie of Christ agaynst

¶ Of the contradiction of the Popes, and of their Decrees and Ordinances, the one sort contrary to the other.

¶ Of the contradiction of the Popes, and of their Decrees and Ordinaunces, the one sorte contrarie to the other.

T. Thou doest declare unto me, things very unpleasant and offensive to those that are Christians. D. There is yet much more, as well of Councils, as of Popes which ⟨p. 115⟩will be the presidents of them. For how many Popes have there been that have condemned and abolished that, which their predecessors have established & ordained? What a non ber hath there ben of them, which have even as the ancient Romaine Emperors did, who when they possessed the Empire after the decease of their predecessors, did abrogate and make of none effect, all that ever their predecessors had established and ordained? Behold one Pope shall make laws, and shall cause a Council to be holden for his purpose, in the which he will ordain, what so ever shall please him, and shall command it under pain of excommunication and everlasting cursing, that the same shall be kept and observed among the Christian people. And after him there shall come an other, which shall abolish all that, and shall do clean contrary, he shall excommunicate and curse all those that will do that which before was commanded under pain of excommunication and damnation. T. If it be so, the Christian people can not choose but stand always a cursed. D. It is certain. For it is an impossibility to observe and keep their Decrees and ordinances, without falling into such perplexities and inconveniences: he that will not believe me, let him read their Canons and Decrees, and Platina which hath written, the lives of the Popes, and hath been nourished and brought up in their Court, and Sabellicus, & the other historians which have entreated of these matters. T. I beseech thee show me some examples to prove this to be true, to the end that I may not think that thou speakest of pleasure, without proof. D. If I should allege all those that I might gather out of their books, I could find enough wherewith to outretayne thee a long time: but I will hold me contented with a reasonable number, to satisfy thy request. We will first speak of the Canons and Decrees that the Popes have made the one sort contrary to the other. ¹What agreement is there between the Pope John, the xxij. & the Pope Nicholas, when the one pronounced judicially ye ⟨p. 116⟩Jesus Christ and his Apostles possessed nothing neither in private ne yet in common: and the other did the clean contrary.

¹In the matter of divorce, Celestine doth permit that the faithful party shall marry again: if that the other party be fallen into heresy, Innocent on the contrary denieth it. Afterward, Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect, the acts of the Pope Formosus, by the authority of the Council: and again John the x. who succeeded this Stephen, did condemn his sentence in the assemble of Ravenna, here must it needs be of necessity, that not only the one or the other of the Popes hath erred, but also that Coū cels which have followed their opinions and sentences, whom they have abused, to confirm their errors, abuses, and tyranny by their authority. Wherefore Gerson, which was one of their own doctors, said not without great reason, that the saying of one doctor approved by the Canonical Scriptures, was more to be credited then the declaration of the Pope, and the saying of a doctor well seen in the holy Scriptures, and alleging the universal authority, was more to be credited then a general Council. T. He did not amiss, for so much as they do so disagree among them selves. D. Panormitan which was at the same time, a man of great reputation, and was present at the Councils of Constance ²and Basel, as Gerson was, hath said no less, although he were a great Idolater of the Papacy: for he said that we ought more to credit the saying of a simple lay man, alleging for his proof the Scriptures, then to all the whole Council.

¹In the matter of diuorce, Celestine doth permit that the faithfull partie shall marry agayne: yf that the other partie be fallen into heresie, Innocent on the contrarie denieth it. Afterward, Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect, the actes of the Pope Formosus, by the authoritie of the Councell: and agayne Iohn the x. who succeded this Stephen, did condempne his sentence in the assemble of Rauenna, here must it nedes be of necessitie, that not onely the one or the other of the Popes hath erred, but also yt Coū cels whiche haue folowed their opinions and sentences, whom they haue abused, to cōfirme their errors, abuses, and tyrannie by their authoritie. Wherfore Gerson, which was one of their owne doctors, sayd not without greate reason, that ye saying of one doctor approued by ye Canonical Scriptures, was more to be credited then the declaracion of the Pope, and the saying of a doctor well sene in the holy Scriptures, and alledging the vniuersall authoritie, was more to be credited then a generall Councell. T. He did not amisse, for somuch as they do so disagree amonge them selues. D. Panormitan which was at the same tyme, a man of great reputacion, and was present at the Councels of Constance

¶ Of the contrariety of the Decrees of many Councils touching the Marriage of the Ministers of the Church.

¶ Of the contrarietie of the Decrees of many Councels touchyng the Mariage of the Ministers of the Churche.

T. I Do not a little marvel, that such men durst affirm any such thing in those days. D. It is so: but the verity is of such power, that she constraineth her very enemies, yea the devils them selves, to confess her, but following our ⟨p. 117⟩purpose, for so much as we have spoken of Popes, let us now come to the contrariety of Councils. The Council of Nice, ¹of whom we have already spoken, which was holden in the year three. C. twenty and three, did allow the Marriage of Ministers of the Church, and condemned those that would forbid it. The first Council of Sangres, holden in the year three hundred thirty and three, hath done no less: and did accurse all such as under colour of Religion, should leave their fathers, mothers and wines. The sixth Council of Constantinople, hath in like sort ordained that no man should make any vow to live without a wife, & that the Priests which should separate them selves from their wives, for their holy orders sake, should be excluded from the Communion. ²The Council of Anticyre, holden in the year three hum dread and four, hath in like sort permitted that Deacons should marry, yea even after that, they had received their orders. And as concerning the Council of Carthage, holden ³in the year four hundred twenty & one, in the which the heresy of Pelagius was condemned by two hundred and seventeen Bishops, among whom S. Augustin was, it appeareth manifestly, by the twelveth constitution of the ⁴same, that the Bishops and other men of the Church were married. And Boniface the viij. did suffer the religious to enjoy their liberties, although they were married. The viij. Council of Toledo, doth allow to break all vows and oaths which are made against the faith. And Epiphanius doth earnestly condemn those, who having not the gift of continency, had rather for shame of the world, to commit fornication and adultery secretly, then to marry. On the ⁵contrary, the Council of Neocesarie, holden the year three hundred and thirty, and the second Council of Carthage, holden the year four hundred and twenty, & after them the Council of Magonce, did condemn the Marriage of Priests and Ministers of the Church, & did wholly forbid it, and did bind the Priests, Monks, and Nuns, to

This Council of Magonce was holden by the Emperor Henry the iij. in the which he assembled an hundred and thirty Bishops, Some say that the Pope Leo the ix. was there also present at it. It was also ordained in that Council, y• men of the Church should keep neither hound, greyhound, spaniel, nor hawk, ne yet should use any secular traffic, and that none should be received for a Monk, unless he came of his own free will, and were of lawful age: but these Decrees have not ben so well observed as hath the forbidding of Marriage. Likewise Gregory the vij. a Monk of Clunie, otherwise called Hildebrand, which was Pope in the time of the Emperor Henry the iiij. did command by his letters to Otto Bishop of Constance, ¹near about the year a thousand forty and seven, that he should forbid through out all his diocese all Priests to marry, which were not then married, and that he should dissolve the marriage of all such as were already married. T. I see in this no great accord. D. Notwithstanding, all this was done, and not without great tyranny: ne yet without great resistance. T. I believe so.

Thys Councell of Magonce was holden by the Emperour Henry the iij. in the whiche he assembled an hundred and thyrtie Bishops, Some saye that the Pope Leo the ix. was there also present at it. It was also ordeyned in that Councell, y• men of the Church should keepe neytheir hounde, greyhond, spaniel, nor hauke, ne yet should vse any seculer traffique, and that none should be receiued for a Monke, vnles he came of his own free wil, and were of lawfull age: but these Decrees haue not ben so well obserued as hath the forbidding of Mariage. Likewise Gregory the vij. a Monk of Clunie, otherwise called Hildebrād, which was Pope in ye tyme of the Emperor Henry the iiij. did commaunde by his letters to Otto Bishop of Constāce, ¹neare about the yeare a thousand fortie and seuen, that he should forbid through out all his diocese all Priestes to marie, whiche were not then maried, and that he should disolue the mariage of all such as were already married. T. I see in this no great accord. D. Notwithstandyng, all this was done, and not without great tyrānie: ne yet without great resistaunce. T. I beleue so.

¶ Of the contrariety of certain Councils, concerning the forbidding and difference of Meats.

¶ Of the contrarietie of certaine Councels, concerning the forbiddyng and difference of Meates.

D. Here is as much as I did determine to speak, as touching Marriage, let us now come to the forbidding of of meats. The second Bracarense Council, holden the year ¹six hundred & nineteen, did accurse all such, as did abstain from eating of any meat, through superstition: and that which the Pope Martin held, did the like. The third Council of Tolled did accurse those that should forbid men to eat. And the Pope Eleutherius did ordain, that no man should refrain through superstition from eating of any meat that was agreeable with mans nature. On the contrary, the Romaine Council, did forbid to eat flesh on the Saturday: ⟨p. 119⟩and afterward that defence was extended further, as we see at this day, to Friday, Vigils, Ember days, and Lent. T. The Papists will reply against this and say, that by making of those statutes concerning the forbidding of meats, they do nothing against the ancient Decrees and Councils, for so much as they do abstain neither for superstition, ne yet for any evil opinion, that they have of the good creatures of God, as did the ancient heretics, but only for abstinence. D. I understand it well, but if they do it for abstinence, how happeneth it, that they have on those days these kinds of meat, which are forbidden, in so great abomination? Why do they attribute to their abstinence so great merits? why do they not rather put difference in the quantity of the meat, then in the kind? which they do not at all. T. It is even so.

D. HEre is as much as I did determine to speake, as touching Mariage, let vs now come to the forbidding of of meates. The second Bracarense Coūcell, holden the yere ¹six hundred & nynetene, did acursse all such, as did abstaine from eating of any meate, thorow supersticion: and yt which the Pope Martin helde, did the like. The thyrd Councell of Tolede did accursse those that should forbid men to eate. And the Pope Eleutherius did ordayne, that no mā should refraine throughe supersticion from eatyng of any meate that was agreable with mans nature. On the contrarie, the Romaine Coūcell, did forbid to eate fleshe on the Saterday: ⟨p. 119⟩and afterward that defence was extended further, as we see at this day, to Friday, Vigils, Imber dayes, and Lent. T. The Papistes will replie agaynst this and say, that by makyng of those statutes concerning ye forbiddyng of meates, they do nothing agaynst the auncient Decrees and Councels, for so much as they do abstaine neither for supersticiō, ne yet for any euill opinion, that they haue of the good cretures of God, as did the aūcient heretikes, but onely for abstinence. D. I vnderstand it well, but if they do it for abstinence, how happeneth it, that they haue on those dayes these kindes of meat, which are forbidden, in so great abhomination? Why do they attribute to their abstinence so great merites? why do they not rather put difference in the quantitie of the meate, then in the kind? whiche they do not at all. T. It is euen so.