The first part of the Christian instruction, and general so[m]me of the doctrine, contained…The firste parte of the Christian instruction, and generall so[m]me of the doctrine, conteyned…

¶ Of the Council of Carthage, concerning the Baptism administered by heretics.

¶ Of the Councell of Carthage, concernyng the Baptisme administred by heretikes.

1. 1Euseb. 7. c. 5

¶ Of the sentence and opinion of the Papists concerning the general and particular Councils, and of the diversity of their decrees.

¶ Of the sentence and opinion of the Papistes concerning the generall and particuler Councells, and of the diuersitie of their decrees.

T. These against whom thou doest inveigh, will confess unto thee that the Councils, yea the general Councils, §11in that that concerneth the manners and discipline of the Church, have oftentimes determined diverse things without any prejudice of the faith, according to the condition & circumstance of the places, times and men, and such like. ¹For this cause Innocent the third said. That it ought not to be judged a thing worthy of blame, if that according to the change of time, mens ordinances did also change, chiefly when an urgent necessity and an apparent commodity doth require it. For God himself hath changed diverse of those things in the new Testament which he ordained in the old. And therefore men may not rashly judge and say, that the Councils are contrary the one sort to the other, although that in things concerning the policy of the church more then the faith, the one hath oftentimes changed: that the other hath decreed. For the lawful general Councils, were never contrary the one to the other in any piece of the substance of our faith, which is necessary to our salvation. And in this sort must it be understood that S. Augustine hath said. The former Councils have been amended ²by the latter: and that the ordinances and decrees of provincial Councils, ought to give place to those of greater Councils: but the Canonical Scripture doth give place to none. And as touching the Council of Carthage, it was no general but a particular Council, as Saint Augustine proveth against the Donatists. And in deed they deny not but that particular Councils may err: and that they ought to be reformed by the general, as it is already declared.

T. THese against whō thou doest inuey, will confesse vnto thée that the Councells, yea the general Councels, §11in that that concerneth the manners and discipline of the Church, haue oftentimes determined diuerse thyngs without any preiudice of the fayth, according to the condition & circumstance of the places, times and men, and such lyke. ¹For this cause Innocent the third sayd. That it ought not to be iudged a thing worthy of blame, if that according to the chaunge of time, mens ordinaunces dyd also chaunge, chiefely when an vrgent necessitie and an apparaunt commoditie doth requyre it. For God himselfe hath chaūged diuerse of those things in the new Testament which he ordeined in the olde. And therfore mē may not rashlye iudge and say, that the Councells are contrary the one sort to ye other, although that in thinges concerning the policie of ye church more then the fayth, the one hath oftentimes chaunged: that the other hath decreed. For the lawfull generall Councells, were neuer contrarye the one to the other in anye peece of the substaunce of our fayth, which is necessarye to our saluation. And in this sort muste it be vnderstoode that S. Augustine hath sayd. The former Councells haue bene amended

¶ Of the errors and abuses that have been brought into the church, what mean there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of such Councils, when need shall require.

¶ Of the errours and abuses that haue beene brought into the church, vvhat meane there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of such Councells, vvhen nede shall requyre.

D. Then they do confess, at the least, that the provincial Councils may err, yea even those, in the which the ⟨p. 123⟩most wise and holy men that were in the world since the Apostles time have been present. For S. Cyprian was one ¹of the best learned men that hath been in the church since that time, and was of such zeal towards the word of God and his church, that he dyed a martyr for the truth of Jesus Christ, And then judge you that if a Council in the which such personages were, might err: what we may think of many Idolatries and superstitions, and of many vain ceremonies, traditions and abuses that have been sowed in the church, not by Councils and particular Synods only, but by particular men, who have charged the church to what so ever pleased them. For one hooded Monk or Fryer had been sufficient to have invented a thousand manner of doings clean contrary to the Scriptures, and forthwith they should have been put in use, and allowed as if they had been articles of the faith. If it were lawful then to change those same very things which the general and lawful Councils had decreed, concerning the policy and discipline of the Church, as touching their manners, according to the needfulness of the circumstances, and the capacity of men, of places and times: it ought then to be no less lawful to those unto whom God hath given the knowledge of his word to condemn and abolish so many abuses & innumerable errors, which by so many means and wrong ways, without order or ecclesiastic discipline have been sowed in the Church of the Lord: and are so intolerable, that the very greatest enemies of verity, even the Romaine Antichrist have been constrained to confess it. And without going any further to prove it, did not the Pope Adrian confess, not many years since, that there were many enormities and inconveniences in the Romish seat, and many abuses, offences, and disorders in the government of the Church? And beside this, what confession did the Legates and orators of the Pope Paul deceased make, at the Council of Trent, of the estate of their church? ⟨p. 124⟩But what wilt thou say if I do prove by S. Augustine that not only the provincial and national Councils may be corrected by the great and general Councils, but also even they them selves may be corrected the one by the others, the first by the last. T.

If it be so, our adversaries should not then think it strange if we would not wholly dwell upon the authority of their Councils. D. That same doth plainly appear by his writings, whereupon he declareth, when that same ought to be done and by what mean: To wit, that when by experience of things, that which was secret is opened, and that which was hidden is known, without any puffing up in pride full of sacrilege, without any swollen arrogance, without any contention and envy, but with holy humility, with the universal Christian peace, he speaketh here generally of all Councils, and of all that ever may be determined in them.

If it be so, our aduersaries shoulde not then thinke it straunge if we would not wholly dwell vppon the authoritie of their Councells. D. That same doth playnlye appeare by his writinges, wherevpon he declareth, when that same ought to be done and by what meane: To witte, that when by experience of thinges, that which was secret is opened, and that which was hidden is knowen, without any puffing vp in pryde full of sacrilege, without any swollen arrogancie, withoute any contention and enuye, but with holy humilitie, with the vniuersall Christiā peace, he speaketh here generally of all Councells, and of all that euer may be determined in them.

¶ Of those that wait upon the Prelates of the Church, and would have them to correct the abuses that therein are: and what liberty every man had to sow and bring them into the Church: and what agreement & difference there is between the ancient Heathen Emperors, and the Popes, and their Councils and assemblies.

¶ Of those that vvayte vpon the Prelates of the Church, and vvoulde haue them to correcte the abuses that therein are: and vvhat libertye euery man hadde to sovve and bryng them into the Church: and vvhat agreement & difference there is betvvene the auncient Heathen Emperours, and the Popes, and their Councells and assemblyes.

T. They do not utterly deny but that there are some abuses and errors in the Church, but they say that it appertaineth not to every man to reform them: but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church, unto whom GOD hath given it. Wherefore, they think meet, to have a general Council, to determine what things should be observed, and what should be abolished, before that any thing should be changed or altered. D. The Seducers and false Prophets, which filled the church with errors, did not tarry a general Council to pour out their poison and to corrupt the Church of the Lord, but we must tarry for a Council to purge it: and in the ⟨p. 125⟩mean time the poor souls shall go to the devil. Must we put the matter in question in a Council, whether we ought to believe that Jesus Christ is God, and the very Son of God, and our only Saviour and redeemer? Shall we do as did the Emperor Tiberius, who put the matter in deliberation in the Council at Rome, with the prerogative of his voice and the testimony of his consent, whether Christ should be accepted and received amongest the Gods, or no? Which thing he did for that (as Tertullian witnesseth) that the Romans had a very ancient law, by the which it was ordained, that there should ¹be no God canonized by the Emperors, and that none should be so received, unless he were allowed and confirmed by the Council. For this cause Jesus Christ was not received for a God, because it pleased not the Council: albeit that the Emperor was of contrary opinion. T. Then had not the Emperor so great authority in the Council at Rome, ne yet in his Empire as the Pope will challenge over the Councils, over the whole church, over all Christendom, yea and over the word of god it self. D. It is true, and therefore I fear greatly that if Jesus Christ were now to be received, he should be as far of from being received at the Councils, in the which this Romaine Antichrist doth preside, as he was then at that Council of Rome. For sith they do reject and disallow his doctrine, they do sufficiently declare what opinion they have of him. T. It can not be better known by any thing then by that, for that is a proof most sure.

T. THey doe not vtterly denye but that there are some abuses and errours in the Church, but they say that it appertayneth not to euery man to reforme them: but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church, vnto whom GOD hath geuen it. Wherfore, they thinke meete, to haue a generall Councell, to determyne what thynges shoulde bee obserued, and what shoulde bee abolyshed, before that any thyng shoulde be chaunged or altered. D. The Seducers and false Prophets, which filled ye church with errours, dyd not tarye a generall Councell to poure out their poyson and to corrupte the Church of the Lorde, but we muste tarrye for a Councell to pourge it: and in the

¶ Of the things which of them selves are already sufficiently resolved among all men, without looking for any resolution of the Council: and of the negligence and carelessness that is in us to put them in use, and to govern our selves according to the same.

¶ Of the thinges vuhich of them selues are alreadye sufficiently resolued among all men, vvithout looking for any resolution of the Councell: and of the negligence and carelesnesse that is in vs to put them in vse, and to gouerne oure selues according to the same.

D. IF they think him to be the very Son of God, and that his Gospel is the word of God, they need not to ⟨p. 126⟩tarry for a Council to determine whether it shall be received and observed, or no, but would rather endeavour themselves to put in execution those things which are not in controversy, but are already agreed upon & resolved among all men, as well by the word of God, as by their own Councils. Let them therefore correct their ignorance and beastliness, their negligence and slothfulness in the executing of their office, and their pomps and ambition, their insatiable covetousness, their execrable whoredom, with the number of those horrible vices which reign among them. For there needeth not any tarrying for yt Council, to condemn or allow it, for it is already resolved. Why do they not observe the decrees of the Pope Alexander the third, of Gelase, of Nicolas the second, of the Elibertin Council of Tolled, of Carthage, of * Cabylone, of Chalcedony, and of Lateran, which have forbidden to any, money or presents for the satisfaction of sins, for baptism, for the churches, for the Sacraments, and for the gifts of God: which ordained also that none should be advanced to any place in the church for money, ne yet for rewards: and that he should be holden for Apostatic, and not for Apostolic, that should obtain the seat of Rome, either by money or else by favour? Why are not the poor nourished and clad, and also the sick and weak, by the Bishops, according to the ordinances of the Aurelian Council? Why do the Monks possess any thing in proper, contrary to the determination of that same Council? But all this is old and abolished, why may we not lawfully reproach them in that sort that Jesus Christ did those Jews, which sought to have him dead, because he had healed a man sick of the Palsy upon the Sabbath day: and yet left not they to violate and break the whole law upon the Sabbath day? And therefore he said unto them, did not Moses give you the law, ¹and none of you observeth the same? Why do you seek to put me to death? They declared plainly by that what ⟨p. 127⟩zeal they had to the law, and yet would they show as though they had a great care for the observation thereof, and chiefly in the pursuit which they made against Jesus Christ.

These good men do even the like, making a show as though they did greatly desire the reformation of the Church, and yet in the mean time there is no one piece of the word of God, Council nor Canon which they do not violate and corrupt, without giving order in any one thing. Now seeing that men are come so far, there needeth now but a Council to abolish the rest that remaineth: for who be they that shall hold it? Even those which have sowed, authorised, and allowed these errors and abuses. And yet will they glory that their law, and faith, with their whole religion is so well approved, that no one jot thereof ought to be called in doubt. It may be no more disputed of, then may the Alcoran of Mahomet among the Turks, but must be holden for fully resolved, what so ever they do approve or disallow.

These good men doe euen the lyke, making a shewe as though they dyd greatlye desire the reformation of the Church, and yet in the meane tyme there is no one peece of the worde of God, Councell nor Canon which they doe not violate and corrupte, without geuing order in anye one thing. Nowe seing that men are come so farre, there needeth nowe but a Councell to abolishe the reast that remayneth: for who be they that shall holde it? Euen those which haue sowed, authorised, and allowed these errours and abuses. And yet will they glorye that their law, and fayth, with their whole religion is so well approued, that no one iote thereof ought to be called in doubte. It may be no more disputed of, then maye the Alcoran of Mahomet amonge the Turkes, but must be holden for fullye resolued, what so euer they do approue or disalowe.

¶ What liberty Christians have to reform the abuses that are among them, according to the power and authority which God hath given them.

¶ VVhat lihertie Christians haue to reforme the abuses that are among them, accordyng to the povver and authoritye vvhich God hath geuen them.

T. They will confess that there are many things (as it hath been already said) which may be changed and abolished according as necessity shall require: as we have ¹example in the Council of Jerusalem holden by the Apostles, as hath ben heretofore declared. There were things that were ordained but for a certain time, which we observe not at this present, for we have not that occasion, unto the which the Apostles then had regard, now among the Christians none are offended to see men eat blood, or to eat of a strangled beast. D. Then if the Church having well considered the intent and end whereunto the Apostles did tend, have abolished in process of time that which the Apostles them selves did decree as touching the ceremonies, knowing that the ordinance did not touch at all any part of the substance ⟨p. 128⟩of the faith, but that it was ordained only for a bond of peace, to keep charity, & to bear for a time with the infirmity & weakness of the Jews: why may she not then more lawfully use her authority to abolish the idolatry, yt superstitions & mens traditions, which are directly against the faith, charity, all good discipline & good order, & against the health of souls? And if it can not be done by a general consent of Christendom, why shall not they yet in their behalf employ them selves, which shall have best means to begin some good reformation? For if it have been lawful for a hooded fellow so boldly to set forth for the word of god, his dreams: shall it not then be lawful for a Christian prince, being accompanied with learned men that fear God, and good ministers of the Gospel, having the word of God for their guide, to reform the churches within their dominions & countries, according to the example of Hezekiah & Josiah, and to purge them of so many intolerable ²abuses, without tarrying any longer for the determination of a Council? But are not all Christian princes bound to do this? for so much as those which ought to procure it will not understand of it as they ought to do, but do enforce them by all means to hinder it that there should be none lawful, ne yet any thing concluded that were good. And therefore we ought not so to depend upon Councils, be they particular or general, that we should not do our duty always, according to the graces & means which god shall give us.