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A14462:45

:44p. 3

Of the Authors and causes of all order and disorder among men, and of the goodness of God, and of the ingratitude & malice of men.

Of the Authours and causes of all order and disorder amonge men, and of the goodnes of God, and of the ingratitude & malice of men.

:45p. 3–4§2

T. I Would be very glad if thou wouldest declare and open unto me somewhat particularly the causes hereof. D. I first ask thee, who is the author and cause of all good order? T. God only, who hath created and made all things, and hath set an order amongest his creatures, such as he knoweth to be meet for them. D. And who is the author and cause of all disorder? T. The devil, adversary to God and to all his creatures: who continually employeth all his forces to overthrow and confound the whole order which God hath set amongst his creatures. D. Seeing that it is so, and that men estrange them selves from God, and flee from his counsel as much as in them is, and on the contrary, endeavour them withal their power to join them selves to the devil, pleasuring in nothing so much as to follow his counsels, and therefore dost thou marvel if all be in disorder ⟨p. 4⟩and extreme confusion? Hast thou not rather occasion much more to wonder at the great goodness and inestimable sufferance of God, how he can endure so long, not only on so great an ingratitude, but rather so great a fury and rage wherewith men are filled, by the which they enforce them by all means possible utterly to destroy them selves, and to hasten their destruction and to make it more fearful and horrible? T. It is very true. And the whole being well considered, it seemeth that we have made a league with Satan, our mortal enemy, to aid him to destroy our selves, and to hinder the goodness that God of his grace, being moved of his own only goodwill, will bestow upon us: and contrarily that God by his great goodness and mercy doth fight against our malice and frowardness, even as to bestow of his graces upon us, will we, nill we, and to withdraw us from these bottomless pits of wickedness, into the which we go about to throw our selves most willingly.

T. I Would be very glad if thou wouldest declare and opē vnto me somewhat particularly the causes herof. D. I first aske thee, who is the authour and cause of all good order? T. God onely, who hath created and made all thinges, and hath set an order amongest his creatures, suche as he knoweth to be meete for them. D. And who is the authour and cause of all disorder? T. The deuill, aduersarie to God and to all his creatures: who continually employeth all his forces to ouerthrow and confound the whole order whiche God hath set amongst his creatures. D. Seyng that it is so, and that men estraunge them selues from God, and flee from his councell as much as in them is, and on the contrarie, endeuour them withal their power to ioyne them selues to the deuill, pleasuryng in nothyng so much as to folowe his councels, and therfore doost thou meruell if all be in disorder ⟨p. 4⟩and extreme confusion? Hast thou not rather occasiō much more to wonder at the great goodnes and inestimable suffraunce of God, how he can endure so long, not onely on so greate an ingratitude, but rather so great a furie and rage wherwith men are fylled, by the whiche they enforce them by all meanes possible vtterly to destroye them selues, and to hasten their destruction and to make it more fearefull and horrible? T. It is very true. And the whole beyng wel cōsidered, it semeth that we haue made a league with Satan, our mortal enemy, to ayde him to destroy our selues, and to hinder the goodnes that God of his grace, beyng moued of his owne onely goodwil, will bestow vpon vs: and cōtrarely that God by his great goodnes and mercy doth fight agaynst our malice and frowardnes, euen as to bestowe of hys graces vpon vs, will we, nill we, and to withdraw vs frō these bottomles pittes of wickednes, into the which we go about to throw our selues most willingly.

:46p. 4

¶ Of the cause of the fall and •uyne of mankind, and of the remedy and mean how to recover the same.

¶ Of the cause of the fall and •uyne of mankind, and of the remedy and meane hovv to recouer the same.

:47p. 4–5§3

D. That same was the first fountain and spring of all the disorders & mischiefs that ever entered into the world. That same was the very path that our first parents took: That same was the very mean by the which they fell from that high degree and state of felicity, peace, quietness, and joy, in the which God had placed them in the beginning, through the which they have damned them selves withal their race, and are fallen into this great disorder and confusion, in the which we are even at this present, because that we as their proper children follow even the self and same counsel that they followed. Therefore seeing that we do know the cause of the evil, why do we not travail to find out the remedies contrary to the same? for so much as the evil doth proceed of that, that we refused to follow the counsel and will of God, and followed the counsel ⟨p. 5⟩and persuasion of the devil. Let us now leave the devil withal his enticements and persuasions, and let us enquire at the mouth of God and take counsel of him, how to learn to know his will and to follow the same: and then all disorder and confusion shall be clean put away, and every thing shall be brought into good order. For in deed the only will of God, and the obedience thereunto belonging, is the mother and nurse of all good order. It is only she that doth beget it, nourish it, and maintain it, and is the only rule wherewith, if you measure all things well, all disorder shall be changed into good order.

D. THat same was the first fountaine and spryng of all the disorders & mischiefes that euer entred into the worlde. That same was the very pathe that our first parentes tooke: That same was the very meane by the which they fell from that hye degree and state of felicitie, peace, quietnes, and ioye, in the whiche God had placed thē in the beginnyng, throughe the whiche they haue dampned them selues withall their rase, and are fallen into this greate disorder and confusion, in the whiche we are euen at this present, bycause that we as their proper children folow euē the selfe and same councell that they folowed. Therfore seyng that we do knowe the cause of the euill, why do we not trauayle to finde out the remedies contrary to the same? for so much as the euil doth procede of that, that we refused to folow the councell and will of God, and folowed the councell ⟨p. 5⟩and persuasiō of the deuil. Let vs now leaue the deuill withall his intisementes and persuasions, and let vs enquire at the mouth of God and take councell of him, howe to learne to knowe his will and to folow the same: and then all disorder and confusion shalbe cleane put away, and euery thing shalbe brought into good order. For in dede the onely wil of God, and the obedience thereunto belongyng, is the mother and nource of al good order. It is onely she that doth beget it, nourish it, and maintayne it, and is the onely rule wherwith, if you measure all things wel, al disorder shalbe chaū ged into good order.

:48p. 5

¶ Of the difficulty that is in men to acknowledge their errors and faults, and of the arguments that they hold of ancient custom, and of the authority of their predecessors, and of auncientie, and of the multitude, wherewith they arm them selves.

¶ Of the difficultie that is in men to acknovvledge their errours and faultes, and of the argumentes that they hold of aūcient custom, and of the authoritie of their predecessors, and of auncientie, and of the multitude, vvherevvith they arme them selues.

:49p. 5§4

T. I Do like all that which thou hast said very well, but there are very few that will take that way, for there are, that are so hard hearted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them believe that they are in error: what reason soever he bring against them out of the book of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faults: although they be so filthy and apparent that every man doth see them, and that every man doth handle them. These men allege their predecessors, and say that they will be no wiser, nor better then they: for they say that they were honest men, and wise enough for to know the will of God. Whereupon they conclude that if those were damned, they will be also damned with them. An other sort allege ancient customs and the multitude of men, and the continuance of time, and the auncienti of their order of life.

T. I Do like all that whiche thou hast sayde very well, but there are very fewe that will take that waye, for there are, that are so hard harted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them beleue that they ar in errour: what reason soeuer he bryng agaynst them out of the booke of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faultes: although they be so filthie and apparent that euery man doth see thē, and that euery man doth handle them. These men alledge their predecessours, and say that they wilbe no wiser, nor better then they: for they say that they wer honest men, and wise ynoughe for to know the wil of God. Wherupon they conclude that if those wer dampned, they wilbe also dampned with them. An other sort alledge aunciēt customes and the multitude of men, and the continuance of tyme, and the auncienti of their order of lyfe.

:50p. 5

¶ Of the process that men bring against God, and of the shifts that they seek to cloak their rebellion against hy• word.

¶ Of the proces that men brynge agaynste God, and of the shyftes that they seeke to cloke their rebellion agaynste hy• vvorde.

:51p. 6

D. For so much as men will not be brought to that pass, to yield that obedience unto God which they owe §5unto him, but will go to the law with him, it must needs come to pass that they search out some shift and some starting holes and excuses to give some show to their cause. Wherefore if we shall give them place, they will never be unfurnished of shifts. But it is great folly for them to plead their cause with God, for he must be the judge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure them selves that all their reasons and excuses shall be of no great value before him, when they shall be weighed in the balances of his justice and judgements. But because that men have been always accustomed to flatter them selves, and that they do so delight in their errors, that it is a hard matter to bring them to acknowledge them selves to be so foul and filthy, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fair discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad thereof.

D. FOr so muche as men wil not be brought to that passe, to yelde that obedience vnto God whiche they owe §5vnto him, but will go to the lawe with hym, it must nedes come to passe that they searche out some shifte and some starting holes and excuses to giue some shew to their cause. Wherefore if we shall gyue them place, they will neuer be vnfurnished of shiftes. But it is greate follie for them to pleade their cause with God, for he must be the iudge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure them selues that all their reasons and excuses shalbe of no greate value before hym, when they shalbe wayed in the ballances of hys iustice and iudgementes. But bycause that men haue bene alwayes accustomed to flatter them selues, and that they do so dilighte in their errours, that it is a hard matter to bryng them to acknowledge them selues to be so foule and filthie, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fayre discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad therof.

:52p. 6

¶ How that all false Religion may be well defended: if that antiquity & the authority of predecessors may have place.

¶ Hovv that al false Religion may be vvel defēded: if that antiquitie & the authoritie of predecessours may haue place.

:53p. 6–7§6

D. Let us now see, what foundation that hath, whereof you have now spoken. There is no error, sect, heresy, false doctrine, nor wickedness so great, but that it may easily be defended, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a Jew, a Turk, and a Pagan, may well allege as much. T. I confess the same. D. If then these Christians (as they name them) were Jews, Turks, or Pagans borne, they would so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessors before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men have none other reason to main tayne their order and manner of life, but only wilfulness & obstinacy, by the which they do right well declare that they have not well considered what the Lord saith by his Prophet Ezekiel: Walk not in the ways of your fathers, nor be ¹you filed with their Idols, for I am the Lord your God: you shall walk in my commandments, & see that you swerve ⟨p. 7⟩neither to the right hand, ne yet to the left hand. It is also written, you shall not do as those ye are gone before you, neither file ²you your selves as they have done. Take heed that you do not according to the custom of the land of Egypt, in the which you have dwelled: Nor yet after the custom of the land of Canaan. So ye you walk not in their statutes: but see ye you observe my ordinances, & that you give good heed to my commandments: to the end that you may walk in them. Let us consider also how the spirit of God, did blame & reprove the ancient ³Samaritans: These people did not hearken at all, but did live according to their ancient custom. These people then feared the Lord: but yet they served their Idols notwithstanding. They follow their ancient custom even to this very day. They do not fear the Lord, nor keep yt ceremonies & yt judgements, & the law, & the commandment that the Lord gave to the son of Jacob, which is surnamed Israel. If our predecessors have walked in the ways of the Lord, we may justly allege them: for God hath commanded us to follow such personages: not for their own worthiness, for they are but men as we are, & not Gods: but because that they have followed in the way of the Lord, which saith that it is he, that is the Lord our God, not our fathers.

:54p. 7§6

For he is the most ancient father that we have, which only is the father of verity & truth, as the devil is the father of lies, who is in deed a very ancient father, but not so ancient as is God the father of all truth.

For he is ye most aūciēt father yt we haue, which onely is ye father of veritie & truth, as the deuill is the father of lyes, who is in dede a very aūcient father, but not so auncient as is God the father of all truth.

:55p. 7

¶ Of the arguments taken of the multitude.

¶ Of the argumentes taken of the multitude.

:56p. 7

T. What sayest thou of the arguments taken of the multitude? D. If it were lawful to allege the multitude of men, the fools and wicked should always have the better: for they are alway the greatest number. Wherefore we are forbidden in law, to follow the multitude, for to do evil. And our saviour Jesus Christ hath willed us to pass through the strait way, for it is yt way that leadeth to eternal life: & contrarily forbiddeth us to follow the large, through the which many pass, for that way leadeth to destruction.¹

T. WHat sayest thou of the argumentes taken of the multitude? D. If it were lawefull to alledge the multitude of mē, the fooles and wicked should alwayes haue the better: for they are alwaye the greatest nomber. Wherfore we are forbidden in law, to folowe the multitude, for to do euill. And our sauiour Iesus Christ hath willed vs to passe thorow the straite way, for it is yt waye that leadeth to eternall life: & cōtraryly forbiddeth vs to folow ye large, thorow the which many passe, for that way leadeth to destruction.¹

1Esech. 20

:57p. 8

¶ Of the arguments of time auncientie.

¶ Of the argumentes of tyme auncientie.

D. LEt vs nowe see, what foundation that hath, whereof you haue nowe spoken. There is no errour, secte, heresie, false doctrine, nor wickednesse so greate, but that it may easely be defēded, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a Iewe, a Turcke, and a Pagane, may well alledge as much. T. I confesse the same. D. If then these Christiās (as they name thē) were Iewes, Turkes, or Pagans borne, they woulde so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessours before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men haue none other reason to main tayne their order and maner of lyfe, but onely wilfulnes & obstinacie, by the which they do right wel declare that they haue not well considered what ye Lord sayth by his Prophet Ezechiell: Walke not in the wayes of your fathers, nor be ¹you filed with their Idoles, for I am ye Lord your God: you shall walk in my commaundements, & see that you swarue ⟨p. 7⟩neither to the right hād, ne yet to the left hād. It is also writtē, you shal not do as those ye ar gone before you, neither file ²you your selues as they haue done. Take hede that you do not according to ye custome of ye land of Egypt, in the which you haue dwelled: Nor yet after ye custome of ye land of Chanaan. So ye you walke not in their statutes: but se ye you obserue my ordinaunces, & that you giue good hede to my cō maūdemēts: to ye end that you may walke in thē. Let vs cō sider also how ye spirite of God, did blame & reproue ye aūciēt ³Samaritanes: These people did not hearken at all, but did liue according to their aūcient custome. These people then feared ye Lord: but yet they serued their Idols notwtstāding. They folow their auncient custome euen to this very day. They do not feare the Lord, nor kepe yt ceremonies & yt iudgements, & the law, & the cōmaūdemēt that ye Lord gaue to the son of Iacob, which is surnamed Israell. If our predecessours haue walked in ye wayes of ye Lord, we may iustly alledge thē: for God hath cōmaūded vs to folow such personages: not for their own worthynes, for they are but mē as we are, & not Gods: but bycause yt they haue followed in the way of the Lord, which saith yt it is he, yt is ye Lord our God, not our fathers.