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A14462:49

:48p. 5

¶ Of the difficulty that is in men to acknowledge their errors and faults, and of the arguments that they hold of ancient custom, and of the authority of their predecessors, and of auncientie, and of the multitude, wherewith they arm them selves.

¶ Of the difficultie that is in men to acknovvledge their errours and faultes, and of the argumentes that they hold of aūcient custom, and of the authoritie of their predecessors, and of auncientie, and of the multitude, vvherevvith they arme them selues.

:49p. 5§4

T. I Do like all that which thou hast said very well, but there are very few that will take that way, for there are, that are so hard hearted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them believe that they are in error: what reason soever he bring against them out of the book of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faults: although they be so filthy and apparent that every man doth see them, and that every man doth handle them. These men allege their predecessors, and say that they will be no wiser, nor better then they: for they say that they were honest men, and wise enough for to know the will of God. Whereupon they conclude that if those were damned, they will be also damned with them. An other sort allege ancient customs and the multitude of men, and the continuance of time, and the auncienti of their order of life.

T. I Do like all that whiche thou hast sayde very well, but there are very fewe that will take that waye, for there are, that are so hard harted and obstinate, that a man shall not make them beleue that they ar in errour: what reason soeuer he bryng agaynst them out of the booke of God, nor they will not acknowledge their abuses & faultes: although they be so filthie and apparent that euery man doth see thē, and that euery man doth handle them. These men alledge their predecessours, and say that they wilbe no wiser, nor better then they: for they say that they wer honest men, and wise ynoughe for to know the wil of God. Wherupon they conclude that if those wer dampned, they wilbe also dampned with them. An other sort alledge aunciēt customes and the multitude of men, and the continuance of tyme, and the auncienti of their order of lyfe.

:50p. 5

¶ Of the process that men bring against God, and of the shifts that they seek to cloak their rebellion against hy• word.

¶ Of the proces that men brynge agaynste God, and of the shyftes that they seeke to cloke their rebellion agaynste hy• vvorde.

:51p. 6

D. For so much as men will not be brought to that pass, to yield that obedience unto God which they owe §5unto him, but will go to the law with him, it must needs come to pass that they search out some shift and some starting holes and excuses to give some show to their cause. Wherefore if we shall give them place, they will never be unfurnished of shifts. But it is great folly for them to plead their cause with God, for he must be the judge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure them selves that all their reasons and excuses shall be of no great value before him, when they shall be weighed in the balances of his justice and judgements. But because that men have been always accustomed to flatter them selves, and that they do so delight in their errors, that it is a hard matter to bring them to acknowledge them selves to be so foul and filthy, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fair discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad thereof.

D. FOr so muche as men wil not be brought to that passe, to yelde that obedience vnto God whiche they owe §5vnto him, but will go to the lawe with hym, it must nedes come to passe that they searche out some shifte and some starting holes and excuses to giue some shew to their cause. Wherefore if we shall gyue them place, they will neuer be vnfurnished of shiftes. But it is greate follie for them to pleade their cause with God, for he must be the iudge, and not they: wherefore they may well assure them selues that all their reasons and excuses shalbe of no greate value before hym, when they shalbe wayed in the ballances of hys iustice and iudgementes. But bycause that men haue bene alwayes accustomed to flatter them selues, and that they do so dilighte in their errours, that it is a hard matter to bryng them to acknowledge them selues to be so foule and filthie, as they are: I am well contented that we do examine their fayre discourses, and their goodly allegations. T. I would be very glad therof.

:52p. 6

¶ How that all false Religion may be well defended: if that antiquity & the authority of predecessors may have place.

¶ Hovv that al false Religion may be vvel defēded: if that antiquitie & the authoritie of predecessours may haue place.

:53p. 6–7§6

D. Let us now see, what foundation that hath, whereof you have now spoken. There is no error, sect, heresy, false doctrine, nor wickedness so great, but that it may easily be defended, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a Jew, a Turk, and a Pagan, may well allege as much. T. I confess the same. D. If then these Christians (as they name them) were Jews, Turks, or Pagans borne, they would so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessors before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men have none other reason to main tayne their order and manner of life, but only wilfulness & obstinacy, by the which they do right well declare that they have not well considered what the Lord saith by his Prophet Ezekiel: Walk not in the ways of your fathers, nor be ¹you filed with their Idols, for I am the Lord your God: you shall walk in my commandments, & see that you swerve ⟨p. 7⟩neither to the right hand, ne yet to the left hand. It is also written, you shall not do as those ye are gone before you, neither file ²you your selves as they have done. Take heed that you do not according to the custom of the land of Egypt, in the which you have dwelled: Nor yet after the custom of the land of Canaan. So ye you walk not in their statutes: but see ye you observe my ordinances, & that you give good heed to my commandments: to the end that you may walk in them. Let us consider also how the spirit of God, did blame & reprove the ancient ³Samaritans: These people did not hearken at all, but did live according to their ancient custom. These people then feared the Lord: but yet they served their Idols notwithstanding. They follow their ancient custom even to this very day. They do not fear the Lord, nor keep yt ceremonies & yt judgements, & the law, & the commandment that the Lord gave to the son of Jacob, which is surnamed Israel. If our predecessors have walked in the ways of the Lord, we may justly allege them: for God hath commanded us to follow such personages: not for their own worthiness, for they are but men as we are, & not Gods: but because that they have followed in the way of the Lord, which saith that it is he, that is the Lord our God, not our fathers.

:54p. 7§6

For he is the most ancient father that we have, which only is the father of verity & truth, as the devil is the father of lies, who is in deed a very ancient father, but not so ancient as is God the father of all truth.

For he is ye most aūciēt father yt we haue, which onely is ye father of veritie & truth, as the deuill is the father of lyes, who is in dede a very aūcient father, but not so auncient as is God the father of all truth.

:55p. 7

¶ Of the arguments taken of the multitude.

¶ Of the argumentes taken of the multitude.

:56p. 7

T. What sayest thou of the arguments taken of the multitude? D. If it were lawful to allege the multitude of men, the fools and wicked should always have the better: for they are alway the greatest number. Wherefore we are forbidden in law, to follow the multitude, for to do evil. And our saviour Jesus Christ hath willed us to pass through the strait way, for it is yt way that leadeth to eternal life: & contrarily forbiddeth us to follow the large, through the which many pass, for that way leadeth to destruction.¹

T. WHat sayest thou of the argumentes taken of the multitude? D. If it were lawefull to alledge the multitude of mē, the fooles and wicked should alwayes haue the better: for they are alwaye the greatest nomber. Wherfore we are forbidden in law, to folowe the multitude, for to do euill. And our sauiour Iesus Christ hath willed vs to passe thorow the straite way, for it is yt waye that leadeth to eternall life: & cōtraryly forbiddeth vs to folow ye large, thorow the which many passe, for that way leadeth to destruction.¹

1Esech. 20

:57p. 8

¶ Of the arguments of time auncientie.

¶ Of the argumentes of tyme auncientie.

:58p. 8§8

T. What sayest thou of those that allege long time & auncientie? D. There is no greater reason in the alleging of time & auncienti, then in the alleging of the multitude. For what is more ancient in this world, then lying, rebellion, and disobedience, manslaughter, violence, extortion, whoredom, Idolatry, villainy, and all kind of wickedness and abomination, for they have had their being even immediately after the beginning of the world, as soon as men were borne into the world. T. These things have begun at the least even from the time, that the devil hath been in the world, which is as ancient as any man that ever was: for he is the ancientest of all creatures, and the father of all the evil that ever was, is, or shall be in the world, and it is by him, that it is entertained, increased, and maintained.

T. WHat sayest thou of those that alledge long time & auncientie? D. Ther is no greater reason in the alledging of time & auncienti, then in the alledging of the multitude. For what is more auncient in this world, then lying, rebellion, and disobedience, manslaughter, violence, extorcion, whoredome, Idolatrie, villeny, and all kinde of wickednesse and abhomination, for they haue had their beyng euen immediatly after the beginning of the world, as soone as men were borne into the world. T. These thinges haue begon at the least euen from the tyme, that the deuil hath bene in the world, whiche is as ancient as any man that euer was: for he is the auncientest of al creatures, and the father of al the euill that euer was, is, or shalbe in the worlde, and it is by him, that it is entertained, encreased, and maintained.

:59p. 8

¶ Of the fall of the devil, and of his children, whose predecessor he is.

¶ Of the fall of the deuill, and of his children, vvhose predecessour he is.

:60p. 8–9§9

D. IN deed it is very well said of thee, for our Saviour Jesus Christ doth call him not only a liar, but also the father ¹of lies. For albeit that God did create him an Angel, and in the same truth that is in God: yet he could not so continue, but did fall from truth into lies, which is the original of all other evils, even as truth is the fountain of ²all goodness. He is also called a manslayer and a murderer from the beginning. And because that Cain did by and by follow him, S. John sayeth that he is the son of the devil, ³and that he slew his brother because he was of the wicked. And in the same place he saith also: he that sinneth is of the devil: for the devil sinneth even from the beginning. In the which Saint John hath followed the manner of speaking of his master Jesus Christ: who called the Jews, children ⁴of the devil: for that they were liars and murderers of the servants of God, and of him which was and is the very ⟨p. 9⟩son of God, which thing proceeded of the very hatred that they had against the truth, which was preached unto them by Jesus Christ and his Disciples.

D. IN dede it is very well sayd of thee, for our Sauiour Iesus Christ doth call him not onely a lyar, but also the father ¹of lyes. For albeit that God did creat hym an Angell, and in ye same truth that is in God: yet he could not so continue, but did falle from truth into lyes, whiche is the originall of all other euils, euen as truth is the fountaine of ²all goodnes. He is also called a mansleyar and a murderer from the begynning. And bycause that Cain did by and by folow him, S. Iohn sayeth that he is the sonne of the deuill, ³and that he slew his brother bycause he was of the wicked. And in the same place he saith also: he that sinneth is of the deuil: for the deuil sinneth euen from the begynning. In the whiche Saint Iohn hath folowed the maner of speakyng of his master Iesus Christe: who called the Iewes, childrē

:61p. 9

¶ Of the predecessors of the wicked and infidels, and how the auncientie of sins doth procure Gods wrath upon men, and doth not excuse them.

¶ Of the predecessours of the vvicked and infidels, and hovve the auncientie of sinnes doth procure Gods vvrath vpon men, and doth not excuse them.

D. LEt vs nowe see, what foundation that hath, whereof you haue nowe spoken. There is no errour, secte, heresie, false doctrine, nor wickednesse so greate, but that it may easely be defēded, if such reasons mought be allowed, For a Iewe, a Turcke, and a Pagane, may well alledge as much. T. I confesse the same. D. If then these Christiās (as they name thē) were Iewes, Turkes, or Pagans borne, they woulde so continue, because they were so borne & also their predecessours before them. T. There is no doubt of it. D. These kind of men haue none other reason to main tayne their order and maner of lyfe, but onely wilfulnes & obstinacie, by the which they do right wel declare that they haue not well considered what ye Lord sayth by his Prophet Ezechiell: Walke not in the wayes of your fathers, nor be ¹you filed with their Idoles, for I am ye Lord your God: you shall walk in my commaundements, & see that you swarue ⟨p. 7⟩neither to the right hād, ne yet to the left hād. It is also writtē, you shal not do as those ye ar gone before you, neither file ²you your selues as they haue done. Take hede that you do not according to ye custome of ye land of Egypt, in the which you haue dwelled: Nor yet after ye custome of ye land of Chanaan. So ye you walke not in their statutes: but se ye you obserue my ordinaunces, & that you giue good hede to my cō maūdemēts: to ye end that you may walke in thē. Let vs cō sider also how ye spirite of God, did blame & reproue ye aūciēt ³Samaritanes: These people did not hearken at all, but did liue according to their aūcient custome. These people then feared ye Lord: but yet they serued their Idols notwtstāding. They folow their auncient custome euen to this very day. They do not feare the Lord, nor kepe yt ceremonies & yt iudgements, & the law, & the cōmaūdemēt that ye Lord gaue to the son of Iacob, which is surnamed Israell. If our predecessours haue walked in ye wayes of ye Lord, we may iustly alledge thē: for God hath cōmaūded vs to folow such personages: not for their own worthynes, for they are but mē as we are, & not Gods: but bycause yt they haue followed in the way of the Lord, which saith yt it is he, yt is ye Lord our God, not our fathers.