A fresh suit against human ceremonies in God's worship. Or a triplication unto. D.…

Neither doeth it in deed, any more than Order.¹ So Mr. Perkins, lat. to. 2. p. 888. Decency is, when the service of God is performed with convenient and fit circumstances of time, place, person, and gesture, and hereof the Apostle speaketh. 1. Cor. 14.40.

Neyther doeth it in deed, any more thē Order.¹ So Mr. Perkins, lat. to. 2. p. 888. Decency is, when the service of God is performed with convenient and fitt circumstances of time, place, person, and gesture, and heereof the Apostle speaketh. 1. Cor. 14.40.

1. 1Decentiae est cum cultut Dei, idone•t atque convenientibut temporis loci, personae & gestus cire•• stantijs absolvitur. De ha• Decentia, Apostolus loqui tur. 1. Cor. 14.4•.

The plain simple trueth, without Ceremonial affectation, is, that Decency is (in this place) nothing ⟨p. 78⟩but good civill fashion,¹ agreeable not only to worship, but also to any grave assembly. Decency (saith Pareus upon the place) is opposed to vanity, Spots, riot it stands not in hoods, Caps, or visors of fond Ceremonies. etc.

The plaine simple trueth, without Ceremoniall affectation, is, that Decencie is (in this place) nothing ⟨p. 78⟩but good civill fashion,¹ agreable not onely to worship, but also to any grave assemblie. Decencie (sayth Pareus upon the place) is opposed to vanity, Spottes, ryott it stands not in hoods, Caps, or vizardes of fond Ceremonies. etc.

1. 1D•••rum apponitur vanita•i, sordibut, •uxni: non est in casuli•, cappl•, aut ceremoniarum lar•is, etc.

I dare appeal to D.B. his conscience, if Baptism be not as decently administered without the Cross, as with it? and public prayers made as decently without a Surplice, as with it? Let Conscience here speak, and the Rejoinder hearkening unto it, will (without doubt) confess, that Decency in this place doeth no more require either Cross or Surplice, then Order, and that both of them together doeth no more require those Ceremonies, then a hundred other, which in England (though not at Rome) are denied unto them.

I dare appeall to D.B. his conscience, if Baptisme be not as decently administred without the Crosse, as with it? and publicke prayers made as decently without a Surplice, as with it? Let Conscience here speak, and the Rejoynder hearkening unto it, wil (without doubt) confesse, that Decencie in this place doeth no more require eyther Crosse or Surplice, then Order, and that both of them together doeth no more require those Ceremonies, then a hundred other, which in England (though not at Rome) are denyed unto them.

12. The received definitions of Order are brought in to the same purpose, by the Replier. And the Rejoinder yieldeth so much as they import, viz. that order in strict signification doeth not imply such Ceremonies as ours.

12. The receyved definitions of Order are brought in to the same purpose, by the Replier. And the Rejoynder yeeldeth so muche as they importe, viz. that order in strict signification doeth not implie suche Ceremonies as ours.

He must therefore either prove, that in this place. 1. Cor, 14.40. that word is not taken strictly, which he himself formerly granted, or give up this place which is (by his own confession) the only place of all the New. Testament, for warranting of such Ceremonies, or fly to Decency, upon which he cannot any more fasten then upon order, as hath been showed.

He must therfore eyther prove, that in this place. 1. Cor, 14.40. that word is not taken strictly, which he himself formerly granted, or give up this place which is (by his owne confession) the onely place of all the New. Testament, for warranting of suche Ceremonies, or flie to Decencie, upon which he cannot any more fasten then upon order, as hath been shewed.

Nothing material is added in the rest of the Rejoynd. his answer unto this Argument (where our Divines are observed, to distinguish order and decency from mystical Ceremonies, the context of the chapter. 1. Corinth 14. Is declared to respect no mystical Ceremonies, the phrase of Scripture is showed to consent,) nothing (I say, and the Reader may see) is added: but only the same things are repeated about Order, and Decency which are now sufficiently discussed.

Nothing materiall is added in the rest of the Rejoynd. his answer unto this Argument (where our Divines are observed, to distinguish order and decencie from mysticall Ceremonies, the context of the chapter. 1. Corinth 14. Is declared to respect no mysticall Ceremonies, the phrase of Scripture is shewed to consent,) nothing (I say, and the Reader may see) is added: but onely the same thinges are repeated about Order, and Decencie which are now sufficiently discussed.

So that the Rejoinder hath nothing to say to the contrary, but that we may safely conclude, Ergo, to appoint and use the Ceremonies as we do, is not left to the liberty of the Church, 1. e. it is unlawful.

So that the Rejoynder hath nothing to say to the contrarie, but that wee may safely conclude, Ergo, to appoint and use the Ceremonies as we doe, is not left to the libertie of the Churche, 1. e. it is unlawfull.

If there were nothing else against them, in all the Scripture, then this place, beside which the Def. and Rejoinder can find none in all the New. Testament, for them, any indifferent man would say they are not allowed.

If ther were nothing else against them, in all the Scripture, then this place, beside which the Def. and Rejoynder can finde none in all the New. Testament, for them, any indifferent man would say they are not allowed.

Those that are devoted to the Ceremonies, may shuffle up and down, first to order, and when they are beaten thence, to Decency, and from Decency, when they can defend that no longer, to Edification, as the Rejoinder doeth: but all will not help. Let them pitch or insist upon one of these grounds, without starting, I will pawn my head, their anchor will come home to them again as finding no fast ground, either in Order, or Decency, or edification, for double significant Ceremonies (such as ours) to ride at.

Those that are devoted to the Ceremonies, may shufle up and downe, first to order, and when they are beaten thence, to Decencie, and from Decencie, when they can defend that no longer, to Edification, as the Rejoynder doeth: but all will not helpe. Let them pitch or insist upon one of these grounds, without starting, I will pawne my head, their anchor will come home to them againe as finding no fast grounde, eyther in Order, or Decencie, or edification, for double significant Ceremonies (suche as ours) to ride at.

The Def. could frame no Consequence out of any of these words, the Rejoinder saith there is one, but he cannot show it. To the contrary consequence nothing is answered of any moment.

The Def. could frame no Consequence out of any of these words, the Rejoynder sayth ther is one, but he cannot shew it. To the contrarie consequence nothing is answered of any moment.

And is not this a miserable cause, which hath no place in all the New Testament, which the best Advocates can allege for it, but only that; out of which it is utterly confounded? To the Defend. and Rejoinders maintaining such a cause, this testimony may be given that they would willingly, so far as they can, favour things which the times favour, and therefore strive to make something, of that which maketh nothing for them. In the former section, when Order, Decency, and Edification, should have been handled as Rules, according to the title of the digression, the Rejoinder suddenly ⟨p. 81⟩breaketh off, referring them to a fitter place. Now here in this place, he was constrained to touch upon them, but so softly and sparingly, that it appeareth he found this no fitter place then the former, for those reserved considerations. When shall we come to the fitter place?

And is not this a miserable cause, which hath no place in all the New Testament, which the best Advocates can allege for it, but onely that; out of which it is utterly confounded? To the Defend. and Rejoynders mainteyning such a cause, this testimonie may be given that they would willinglie, so farre as they can, favour thinges which the times favour, and therfore strive to make somthing, of that which maketh nothing for them. In the former section, when Order, Decencie, and Edification, should have been handled as Rules, according to the title of the digression, the Rejoynder soddainly ⟨p. 81⟩breaketh off, referring them to a fitter place. Now here in this place, he was constreined to touche upon them, but so softly and sparinglie, that it appeareth he founde this no fitter place then the former, for those reserved considerations. When shall we come to the fitter place?

SECT. 17. Concerning the ancient Fathers allowing of Humane Ceremonies.

1. OF these, the Repl. answered, it cannot be proved, nor is probable, that from the first beginning of the Primitive Church they brought in any new inventions. Upon this, the Rej. accusing not him alone, but others also, that they can believe no trueth cross to their opinion, because they seek honour one of another, & presume of their new traditions, as if the spirit of trueth had come only to them, or from them alone, answereth that it is a matter of fact, proved by Records of Churches, against which nothing can be said. But if he could keep-in his passion, so long, as to hear this only word, that there are no sufficient Records of any such thing, extant from the beginning, then he might see that sufficient answer is given, unto the name of all Fathers, always.

1. OF these, the Repl. answered, it cannot be proved, nor is probable, that from the first beginning of the Primitive Churche they brought in any new inventions. Vpon this, the Rej. accusing not him alone, but others also, that they can beleive no trueth crosse to their opinion, because they seeke honour one of another, & praesume of their new traditions, as if the spirit of trueth had come onely to them, or from thē alone, answereth that it is a matter of fact, proved by Records of Churches, against which nothing can be sayd. But if he could keep-in his passion, so longe, as to hear this onely word, that there are no sufficient Records of any suche thing, exstant from the beginninge, then he might see that sufficient answer is given, unto the name of all Fathers, allways.

Yet I will add one conjecture, to show, that those ⟨p. 82⟩observations which seem to have been universal, in the Primitive Church, were not so in deed, without exception. Praying toward the East, hath as ancient testimony, as any other humane Rite. Tertullian Apol. cap. 16. witnesseth, that that was one cause why the Christians were esteemed to worship the Sun. And yet Socrates, lib. 5. cap. 22. doeth witness, that at Antioch which was the first Church of Christians by name, they used not to place their Mysteries which directed their posture of prayer, toward the East, but rather toward the West. And why may we not conceive the like of Easter, as well as of this East observation?

Yet I will adde one conjecture, to shew, that those ⟨p. 82⟩observations which seem to have been universall, in the Primitive Churche, were not so in deed, without exception. Praying toward the East, hath as ancient testimonie, as any other humane Rite. Tertullian Apol. cap. 16. witnesseth, that that was one cause why the Christians were esteemed to worship the Sunne. And yet Socrates, lib. 5. cap. 22. doeth witnesse, that at Antioche which was the first Churche of Christians by name, they used not to place their Mysteries which directed their posture of prayer, toward the East, but rather toward the West. And why may we not conceyve the like of Easter, as well as of this East observation?

2. It was secondly answered, that those, Feasts, which the Primitive Church is said to have observed, were not by Canonical imposition, but voluntary accommodation to the infirmity of some, as appeareth by the variety of their observation, and Socrates his testimony. Mark now, what a Rejoinder is given? 1. He telleth us of a strange conjecture of his, even from this answer▪ viz. that the Churches held, it not only lawful, but also convenient, to impose upon themselves such Feasts. As if occasional accommodation, were all one with imposition, or voluntary joining in action for the good that is in it, were always a certain argument of holding that opinion which others do affix unto it. But if they had thought them so convenient, yet that Arg. would be of little force. For many Ceremonies were thought then convenient, which long since are universally thought otherwise of, & therefore left off, though no reason of inconvenience can be showed, which did ⟨p. 83⟩not agree to those times as well as to succeeding times, except further abuse: which cannot be denied of our Ceremonies in question, as religious use of milk, honey, & abstaining from washing ones hands for certain days after Baptism etc. 2. That which was mentioned of infirmity occasioning this accommodation, the Rej. (after his manner) crieth down as a fiction, boldly delivered, without proof, or colour, merely for opposition sake: Whereas notwithstanding it is so clear, that the infirmity of men newly converted from Judaism, and Gentilism, did bring into Christian Churches customs like unto those in use among Jews and Gentiles, that Cardinal Baronius, from that ground maintaineth many Ceremonies.¹ What wonder if the grown customs among the Gentiles (and we may add the Jews also) were such as from which, tho they were converted to Christianism, they were yet so hardly taken, that it might seem impossible to putt them quite off, what wonder I say then if the most holy Bishops have granted them place in the worship of God?

2. It was secondly answered, that those, Feasts, which the Primitive Churche is sayd to have observed, were not by Canonicall imposition, but voluntarie accommodation to the infirmitie of some, as appeareth by the varietie of their observation, and Socrates his testimonie. Marke now, what a Rejoynder is given? 1. Hee telleth us of a strange conjecture of his, even from this answer viz. that the Churches held, it not onely lawfull, but also convenient, to impose upon themselves suche Feasts. As if occasionall accommodation, were all one with imposition, or voluntarie joining in action for the good that is in it, were always a certaine argument of holding that opinion which others doe affixe unto it. But if they had thought them so cōveniēt, yet that Arg. would be of litle force. For many Ceremonies were thought then convenient, which longe since are universally thought otherwise of, & therfor left off, though no reason of inconvenience can be shewed, which did