A19884:453
A19884:453
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.An apologeticall reply to a booke called an ansvver to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his wrightings. By Iohn Davenporte BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
That Roman Emperor, whom stories report to have spent so much time in catching flies, might have been better employed in such thoughts as Ahasuerus had, when he could not sleep. The text saith,1 He commanded them to bring the book of records, and they were read before him. In like manner, the Answerer might well have spared this needles, useless labour for enlarging this Section, and, in ste•d thereof, have condemned ⟨p. 112⟩himself for his unthankfulness, who, not only, hath not recompensed the kindness that hath been done him, but hath rewarded evil for good. And, that it may more appear to all men, even in the Sections where my confidence in him and kindness should be mentioned, there he laboured most to injure me with casting intimations to raise suspicions in mens minds causelessly. To be brief. To what end are all these words?
THat Roman Emperour, whom storyes report to have spent so much time in catching flyes, might have bene better imployed in such thoughts as Ahasuerosh had, when he could not sleepe. The text sayth,1 He commanded them to bring the booke of records, and they were read before him. In like manner, the Answerer might well have spared this needles, useles labour for inlarging this Section, and, in ste•d thereof, have condemned ⟨p. 112⟩himselfe for his unthanckfullnes, who, not only, hath not recompensed the kindnes that hath bene done him, but hath rewarded evill for good. And, that it may more appeare to all men, even in the Sections where my confidence in him and kindnes should be mentioned, there he laboured most to injure me with casting intimations to rayse suspitions in mens minds causelesly. To be breife. To what end are all these words?
Are they to prove that I had seen in writing a copy of the differences between the Answerer & Mr. Hooker? J grant it, but withal I affirm three things. 1. That it was long before I left London, and, when I was far from any thoughts of coming into these parts, and leaving mine own land, and so had no cause to fix my mind upon thoughts of those matters. 2. That my coming over was but for 3 or 4 months. He that brought me over, those that wrote for me, the friends I left behind, all know, and can witness it. The Answerer himself knoweth, I told him so, when I first visited him. 3. That in Mr. H. answer to the question, there doeth not appear light sufficient to inform any man what that is, which in the Dutch custom about Baptism, he disliked. And, when he propounded the question to me, about this matter, I did not understand, in what particular, the difference between the Answerer and Mr. H. lay.
Are they to prove that I had seene in wrighting a copy of the differences betweene the Answerer & Mr. Hooker? J grant it, but withall I affirme three things. 1. That it was long before I left London, and, when I was farr from any thoughts of comming into these parts, and leaving mine owne land, and so had no cause to fixe my mind upon thoughts of those matters. 2. That my comming over was but for 3 or 4 moneths. He that brought me over, those that wrote for me, the freinds I left behind, all know, and can witnes it. The Answerer himselfe knoweth, I told him so, when I first visited him. 3. That in Mr. H. answer to the question, there doeth not appeare light sufficient to informe any man what that is, which in the Dutch custom about Baptisme, he disliked. And, when he propounded the question to me, about this matter, I did not understand, in what particular, the difference betweene the Answerer and Mr. H. lay.
Or, secondly, Would he intimate that I sought the place, or went about to intrude my self, for continuance? 1. Himself knoweth, that, when he, with one of the Elders, presented to me a call from the Consistory, I did not suddenly accept it (which I would have done, if I had so desired the place, as he insinuateth) but took time to consider of it, being not satisfied about the lawfulness of the conditions propounded to me. 2, Himself hath reported that I might have had the place, but I refused it: which is true, being understood in that sense, wherein it is said of those worthies, 1that they would not be delivered, viz, not upon unwarrantable, and ill conditions. But this is sufficient to clear me of that imputation of inordinately desiring that place.
Or, secondly, Would he intimate that I saught the place, or went about to intrude my selfe, for continuance? 1. Himselfe knoweth, that, when he, with one of the Elders, presented to me a call from the Consistory, I did not suddenly accept it (which I would have done, if I had so desired the place, as he insinuateth) but tooke time to consider of it, being not satisfyed about the lawfullnes of the conditions propounded to me. 2, Himselfe hath reported that I might have had the place, but I refused it: which is true, being understood in that sense, wherein it is sayd of those worthyes, 1that they would not be delivered, viz, not upon unwarrantable, and ill conditions. But this is sufficient to cleare me of that imputation of inordinately desiring that place.
Or, thirdly, Would he have his credulous Reader to suspect my trueth, when I say that I came over but for 3 or 4 months? ⟨p. 113⟩Else, what mean those 4 presumptions, which he insinuateth to suggest the contrary? To which I will answer briefly.
Or, thirdly, Would he have his credulous Reader to suspect my trueth, when I say that I came over but for 3 or 4 moneths? ⟨p. 113⟩Else, what meane those 4 praesumptions, which he insinuateth to suggest the contrary? To which I will answer breifely.
To the first, For a man of plausible gifts, eminent, and of fame, & wanting present employment, to present himself where a place is vacant where much contention hath been &c. I answer. 1. For the titles which he giveth me, I account them, as they fall from his pen, but an honourable reproach. 2. For the matter of it:1 The extreme necessity of the place, he being so weak and unfit to preach, together with the importunity of those that solicited me, was the cause moving me (who then was out of employment, and in continual danger) to come over to that place, choosing rather to cast my self upon Gods providence, in perils of the sea, and in a strange land, where I might be of some use to the Church, for a time, then to live privately, but neither safely nor profitably, in my own land, in hope that 3 or 4 month would quiet, and pacify their spirits, that were most exasperated and incensed against me, without any just cause; that so my return to my own land might be with safety and comfort. What if this might give them occasion of seeking, and calling me? will it thence follow, that I sought the place before I was called? or that I did intrude, or thrust my self in for a Pastor? 2or that I run before I was sent, as he slandereth me before? No marvel, if diverse learned and godly Ministers, being their neighbours in this country, have been loath to show themselves in this place &c. least they should seem to offer themselves unto this calling. For they knew the Answerers disposition and spirit, and the contentions which have thereby been in this place, which if I had known, so as now I do, no persuasions should have drawn me thither. And it is very likely, that I had stayed at Rotterdam till the Eldership had sent for me, as Mr. H. did, if the necessity of the place had not hurried me sooner, to prevent the shutting up of the Church doors, which (as I have been told, and the event showed) would come to pass the next Lords day, if my coming prevented it not. Yet two of the Elders, with some other members of the Congregation, met me at Harlem, and accompanied me to Amsterdam, & took care for my accommodation with a convenient entertainment:
To the first, For a man of plausible gifts, eminent, and of fame, & wanting present imployment, to present himselfe where a place is vacant where much contention hath bene &c. I answer. 1. For the titles which he giveth me, I account them, as they fall from his pen, but an honourable reproach. 2. For the matter of it:
and, the joy, that was generally expressed soon ⟨p. 114⟩after my being there was known, showed a great desire in the members that they might enjoy me, And the Answerer himself, at that time, acknowledged Gods good providence in my being there, at that time, and jointly with the Elders, who were then present, when I first visited him, entreated my help the Lords day following, and so long as my time would permit, and their need should require.
and, the joy, that was generally expressed soone ⟨p. 114⟩after my being there was knowne, shewed a great desire in the members that they might injoy me, And the Answerer himselfe, at that time, acknowledged Gods good providence in my being there, at that time, and joyntly with the Elders, who were then present, when I first visited him, intreated my helpe the Lords day following, and so long as my time would permit, and theyre need should require.
To the second presumption, that they that sent for me, and I. C. that fetched me over, did not seek me but for 3 or 4 months; J answer. 1. Suppose their desire was to enjoy me longer; will it thence follow, that I yielded for longer time? 2. By what hath been formerly said it appeareth sufficiently that I agreed with him for no longer time, which himself is able and ready to testify. if it be required.
To the second praesumption, that they that sent for me, and I. C. that fetched me over, did not seeke me but for 3 or 4 moneths; J answer. 1. Suppose theyr desire was to injoy me longer; will it thence follow, that I yeelded for longer time? 2. By what hath bene formerly said it appeareth sufficiently that I agreed with him for no longer time, which himselfe is able and ready to testifye. if it be required.
To the third presumption; that the friend which by an open and unsealed letter, which I brought unto him from London, entreated him to receive me for a fellow helper, did not desire that for 3 or 4 months only.
To the third praesumption; that the freind which by an open and unsealed letter, which I brought unto him from London, intreated him to receive me for a fellow helper, did not desire that for 3 or 4 moneths only.
Answer. I think, never did Laban search so narrowly Jacobs stuff to find his Idols, as this Answerer doeth to find an untruth in my assertion. To what end is this brought in? If he think, or would persuade others, that I procured that friends letter that I might obtain the place, he is much deceived. For neither stands it with my judgment to seek a place (much less by such private recommendations) nor need I the letters of any private friend, having a more public testimony. And how little I minded that letter, may appear in this, that I know not that it was unsealed, and, if indeed it was unsealed, I know not at all what was written in it. It is likely, that, knowing the author of it to be my approved friend, and one that hath deserved well of the Answerer, I supposed, he would commend me to him affectionately, to be lovingly entertained, & used by him in a strange Country, and so took no further heed to it. But, what if that friend did entreat him to receive me for a fellow helper? Will it follow thence, that I sought it? who seeth not the vanity of these pretences?
Answer. I thinck, never did Laban search so narrowly Iacobs stuff to find his Idolls, as this Answerer doeth to find an untrueth in my assertion. To what end is this brought in? If he thinck, or would perswade others, that I procured that freinds letter that I might obtaine the place, he is much deceived. For neither stands it with my judgment to seeke a place (much lesse by such private recommendations) nor need I the letters of any private freind, having a more publick testimony. And how litle I minded that letter, may appeare in this, that I know not that it was unsealed, and, if indeed it was unsealed, I know not at all what was written in it. It is likely, that, knowing the authour of it to be my approved freind, and one that hath deserved well of the Answerer, I supposed, he would commend me to him affectionately, to be lovingly intertayned, & used by him in a strange Country, and so tooke no further heed to it. But, what if that freind did intreate him to receive me for a fellowhelper? Will it follow thence, that I saught it? who seeth not the vanity of these pretences?
To the fourth presumption. That it was not likely, that, ⟨p. 115⟩after 3 or 4 months preaching amongst them, I could easily be dismissed, and their labour and care of seeking and calling another must be interrupted, if not wholly broken off.
To the fourth praesumption. That it was not likely, that, ⟨p. 115⟩after 3 or 4 moneths preaching amongst them, I could easily be dismissed, and theyre labour and care of seeking and calling another must be interruped, if not wholly broken off.
Answer. 1. Grant all this to be true: will it thence follow that I sought it? 2. Grant, that at the end of 3 or 4 months, I had accepted of a call to that place (which it is probable, I should have done, if it had been offered upon safe conditions, rather then to live without public employment) will it thence follow, that I inordinately desired, or basely, or unworthily sought it, or unwarrantably, or without a calling intruded my self? 3. what hindrance could my mere preaching there be to their seeking, or calling another, if I should refuse it? Let the indifferent Judge.
Answer. 1. Grant all this to be true: will it thence follow that I saught it? 2. Grant, that at the end of 3 or 4 moneths, I had accepted of a call to that place (which it is probable, I should have done, if it had bene offered upon safe conditions, rather then to live without publick imployment) will it thence follow, that I inordinately desired, or basely, or unworthily saught it, or unwarrantably, or without a calling intruded my selfe? 3. what hindrance could my mere preaching there be to theyre seeking, or calling another, if I should refuse it? Let the indifferent Iudge.
To what he saith in the two following answers, about the necessity of my knowing the state of the Dutch Churches, whet her I stayed here or not. I Answer, that even for that Reason, my coming over was needful. For no mans word or letters could make that so well known to me, as mine own observation, & experience hath done. But the supposition, whereupon he groundeth that opinion, I do not approve. For, in some cases, a good conscience suffers a man to be neutral, viz, in those things which he is not bound to know or practise, & wherein he hath wanted occasion, or means of full information. And what hurt can that man be supposed to do, by private conference, who suspendeth his judgment, and determineth neither way? Are not these passages mere ropes of sand?
To what he sayth in the two following answers, about the necessity of my knowing the state of the Dutch Churches, whet her I stayed here or not. I Answer, that even for that Reason, my comming over was needfull. For no mans word or letters could make that so well knowne to me, as myne owne observation, & experience hath done. But the suppositiō, whereupon he groundeth that opinion, I doe not approve. For, in some cases, a good conscience suffers a man to be neutrall, viz, in those things which he is not bound to know or practise, & wherein he hath wanted occasiō, or meanes of full informatiō. And what hurt can that man be supposed to doe, by private conference, who suspendeth his judgment, and determineth neyther way? Are not these passages mere roapes of sand?
Lastly. Whereas he seemeth to doubt, in the beginning of this Section, whether I came not over with a discordant mind; I profess, in simplicity of my heart, that I came over with a reverent esteem of him, and with confidence that I should reap more fruits of his brotherly love then I have received, and was far from any purpose of raising contention, which I naturally abhor, or suspicion, that I should have met with such contentions, as I have been troubled with, which if I had foreseen, J should never have come to Amsterdam. Yet I do not repine at, but contentedly submit to that good hand of Divine providence, which brought me hither, and is pleased this way ⟨p. 116⟩to try me, and do with a childlike submission and reverence (in my measure) kiss the rod in my Fathers hand, even when I lament the unkindness of my Elder brother, which yet I would not have published, if he would have suffered me to be silent.
Lastly. Whereas he seemeth to doubt, in the beginning of this Section, whether I came not over with a discordant mind; I professe, in simplicity of my heart, that I came over with a reverent esteeme of him, and with confidence that I should reape more fruits of his brotherly love then I have received, and was farr from any purpose of raysing contention, which I naturally abhorr, or suspition, that I should have met with such contentions, as I have bene troubled with, which if I had foreseene, J should never have come to Amsterdam. Yet I doe not repine at, but contentedly submit to that good hand of Divine providence, which brought me hither, and is pleased this way ⟨p. 116⟩to trye me, and doe with a childelike submission and reverence (in my measure) kisse the rod in my Fathers hand, even when I lament the unkindnes of my Elder brother, which yet I would not have published, if he would have suffered me to be silent.
IN this Section three things are to be considered. 1. his gird at Mr. Hook: 2. His partial and defective report of a conference between us. 3. his pretended answer to some passages in my third writing. These we will examine severally and briefly.
IN this Section three things are to be considered. 1. his gird at Mr. Hook: 2. His partiall and defective report of a conference betweene us. 3. his pretended answer to some passages in my third wrighting. These we will examine severally and breifely.