A19884:699
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
This Section is begun, and ended with misreports, and filled up with causeless reproaches, in the intercurrent passages. ⟨p. 183⟩For. 1. he saith, in the beginning, that, upon my consent to the writing of the five ministers, considered with the order above mentioned, it was thereupon resolved &c. The untruth of this report is manifested to the Reader in the two former Sections, 2. In the conclusion of this Section, he chargeth me with reproaching him, when I said in my writing, to prove that he did not desire to have me with him, that the conditions, whereunto he held me, showed it to be so, and added, upon which terms, he is content to have others, whom he hath no cause to desire for Colleagues with him. This he saith, is a great untruth. But I know it to be true, and can demonstrate it, if I would fall into his vein of disparaging men in print, and diverse of his Congregation will witness it to be true. 3. For the intercurrent reproachful passages, the Reader may note more then a good many. But I let these things pass, & will relate the story of this passage also, as it was. The Answerer (in all probability) by the help of this writing of the five Minister, thought that he had me now fast in his lurch, which way soever I resolved upon. If I should rest in it; then the question was yielded & I had bound my self to baptise promiscuously all that should be brought, according to their custom: which I could not do, without sin against my conscience. If I should refuse to conform thereunto; he had the five Ministers now engaged to assist him, both with the Magistrates, and with the Classis, to hinder my settling there. This ground-work being thus laid, it was no hard matter to persuade him to go to either of them. Hereupon, at the entreaty of the Elders, he accompanied them to the Burgomasters, whom, when they made their address to them, they found praepossest with a false information, about the cause of my coming into those countries, concerning which they desired to be satisfied. For they had been told that it was not for matters Ecclesiastical, but for some offence against the civill Magistrate. which when I understood, I desired the Elders, that they would not prosecute their request any further, till this matter were cleared.
THis Section is begun, and ended with misreports, and filled up with causeles reproaches, in the intercurrent passages. ⟨p. 183⟩For. 1. he sayth, in the beginning, that, upon my consent to the wrighting of the five ministers, considered with the order above mentioned, it was thereupon resolved &c. The untruth of this report is manifested to the Reader in the two former Sections, 2. In the conclusion of this Section, he chargeth me with reproaching him, when I sayd in my wrighting, to prove that he did not desire to have me with him, that the conditions, whereunto he held me, shewed it to be so, and added, upon which termes, he is content to have others, whom he hath no cause to desire for Colleagues with him. This he sayth, is a great untruth. But I know it to be true, and can demonstrate it, if I would fall into his veine of disparadging men in print, and diverse of his Congregation will witnes it to be true. 3. For the intercurrent reproachfull passages, the Reader may noate more then a good many. But I let these things passe, & will relate the story of this passage also, as it was. The Answerer (in all probability) by the helpe of this wrighting of the five Minister, thaught that he had me now fast in his lurch, which way soever I resolved upon. If I should rest in it; then the questiō was yeelded & I had bound my selfe to baptise promiscuously all that should be brought, according to their custom: which I could not doe, without sinne against my conscience. If I should refuse to conforme thereunto; he had the five Ministers now ingaged to assist him, both with the Magistrates, and with the Classis, to hinder my setling there. This ground-worke being thus layed, it was no hard matter to persuade him to goe to either of them. Hereupon, at the intreaty of the Elders, he accompanyed them to the Burgomasters, whom, when they made their addresse to them, they found praepossest with a false information, about the cause of my comming into those countryes, concerning which they desired to be satisfyed. For they had bene told that it was not for matters Ecclesiasticall, but for some offence against the civill Magistrate. which when I understood, I desired the Elders, that they would not prosecute their request any further, till this matter were cleared.
And, upon enquiry, what had been said on both sides, I found that the Answerer was so far from doing me full right ⟨p. 184⟩(in clearing my innocency, as he might have done, having understood the truth concerning the cause of my coming into these parts, by mine own report to himself, in private) that what he spake might seem, rather to increase, then remove the suspicion.
And, upon enquiry, what had bene sayd on both sides, I found that the Answerer was so farr from doing me full right ⟨p. 184⟩(in clearing my innocency, as he might have done, having understood the truth concerning the cause of my comming into these parts, by myne owne report to himselfe, in private) that what he spake might seeme, rather to encrease, then remove the suspicion.
The pretend cause of my trouble with the civill Magistrates in England (as it appeared) was a pious work, wherein I (with others more worthy) was entrusted, to wit, the redeeming of impropriations, & restoring of the means to the right use, the maintenance of faithful and painful ministers, in those places, where was most need. Wherein three other ministers (whereof two were Doctors of Divinity) and four Lawyers (of which one was the Kings Sergeant at Law) and five Citizens (of whom one was Lord Major of London, when I came thence) were trustees with me, by the entreaty and appointment of many, some whereof are at rest, others are yet alive. The work it self was applauded in that very order which was made in the Exchequer against our proceeding in it: Our faithfulness in discharging that trust was testified by his Maties Attorney general (who prosecuted the suite against us) upon his examination of our accounts, which we gave in, upon our oaths. I had no more cause to fly for fear of trouble about this, then the rest, nor had they, or I any cause to withdraw our selves, at that time, when I came over. For the business was wholly ended before my departure. This objection being answered, and the informer himself falling off from his report, the former motion, for their consent to my calling to that ministry, was, without my knowledge, revived, by the Elders. Before the Burgomasters had given their answer, they were informed by one or two of the Dutch ministers, both concerning me, and concerning this difference: when the Elders again waited upon them for their answer, the Burgomasters told them. 1. that they were satisfied about the former report. 2. That they had received a very good report from one or two of the Dutch ministers, with whom they had speech, concerning me. 3. That the said ministers had acquainted them with some difference, which had risen about this custom, and that J had now promised to join ⟨p. 185⟩with the Classis, and to conform to the orders, and customs of the Dutch Church, and, in particular, in this their manner of baptising all that are brought. And they concluded, in effect, in these words, we expect that he do accordingly, and so you may proceed in your choice. By this the Reader may perceive that matters were now so far from being accommodated, that they were set in a worse state, then before.
For now, not only the five Ministers, but the Magistrates also were engaged so far in this matter, that they gave but a conditional assent unto my calling, and had, upon misinformation, made my conformity to this unwarrantable custom, the condition thereof. So that, how easily might he, who before abused the Magistrates with untrue reports about the cause of my coming over (to hinder my admittance) by a malicious (though true) complaint of my not observing that order, in some cases, cause me to be ejected thence? Now a gap was opened to every one, that hereafter should seek my hurt, to procure some such children to be brought (of which sort there can be no want, at any time, in such a city as Amsterdam) as they know I dare not baptise, that thereupon they might ground a complaint against me to the Magistrate. Nor could I, in such a case, expect any help from the Answerer, whom I have found an hinderer of my accommodation hitherto, both in those three ways propounded by me, & in the order, which should have been made in the Consistory, by the promise and endeavours of the Elders.
For now, not only the five Ministers, but the Magistrates also were ingaged so farr in this matter, that they gave but a conditionall assent unto my calling, and had, upon misinformation, made my conformity to this unwarrantable custom, the condition thereof. So that, how easily might he, who before abused the Magistrates with untrue reports about the cause of my coming over (to hinder my admittance) by a malicious (though true) complaint of my not observing that order, in some cases, cause me to be ejected thence? Now a gapp was opened to every one, that hereafter should seeke my hurt, to procure some such children to be brought (of which sort there can be no want, at any time, in such a citty as Amsterdam) as they know I dare not baptise, that thereupon they might ground a complaint against me to the Magistrate. Nor could I, in such a case, expect any helpe from the Answerer, whom I have found an hinderer of my accommodation hitherto, both in those three wayes propounded by me, & in the order, which should have bene made in the Consistory, by the promise and endeavours of the Elders.
The truth of this passage I will briefly relate. After the Elders had received this answer from the Magistrate; out of their desire to accomplish the business (and not finding me at home when they came to speak with me) they went, without ⟨p. 186⟩my consent, or knowledge, to one of the Dutch ministers, whom they entreated to call an extraordinary Classis to meet on the monday following, fearing (as it seemeth) least longer delays might occasion new troubles. The minister, having granted their request, in their return homewards from him, they told me what they had done, about the calling of a Classis, I, being yet ignorant of the issue of their treaty with the Magistrates, desired to know what conclusion they had made, and the very words, wherein they had expressed their consent, which when I understood, I told them that matters were now in a worse state then before: they also apprehended my reason. I wished that the calling of a Classis had been forborne, and prayed them to return to the minister, from whom they came, and to wish him not to call an extraordinary Classis, for this matter, and to tell him that, upon some considerations, they are willing that matters rest as they are, till the ordinary time should come. They promised so to do, and went from me with that resolution, but another of the Elders, with whom they met afterwards, altered their purpose, and therefore they went not. This change of their mind I knew not, till it was too late to help it. The day when the Classis met, they were with me, in the morning, before they went to the meeting. I prayed them to deal plainly with the Classis, in telling them my judgment in this question, and told them the danger of neglecting so to do. They promised me, and purposed to do so, but perceiving that the Ministers of the Classis gave consent to my call, without interposing any question about my conformity to this custom, they did not perform their promise, still hoping and purposing to secure and satisfy me by an effectual order that should be made for that end, in the Consistory. Whereas the Answerer saith, that the Ministers, at that time, understood from them, that I had declared my consent with them, I am informed by the Elders, that, not one word was spoken, to them, at that time, thereabout.
THe truth of this passage I will breifely relate. After the Elders had received this answer from the Magistrate; out of their desire to accomplish the buisenes (and not finding me at home when they came to speake with me) they went, without ⟨p. 186⟩
whereas he saith, Had I known that he was unresolved to accord with us, and to go on in the same practise with us, I would never have made such a proposition for his admission, as I did, in the Classis. J answer.
whereas he sayth, Had I knowne that he was unresolved to accord with us, and to goe on in the same practise with us, I would never have made such a proposition for his admission, as I did, in the Classis. J answer.
1. Had he said so to me, at first, much trouble might have been prevented, but he held me in expectation of a better end, by telling me that he would see what he could do with the Classis, and that he would not answer me alone. &c.
1. Had he said so to me, at first, much trouble might have bene prevented, but he held me in expectation of a better end, by telling me that he would see what he could doe with the Classis, and that he would not answer me alone. &c.
2. What proposition he made I know not, but what opposition he made, both concerning the tendering of a call to me in writing, and concerning the manner of expressing my call, both he knoweth, and others can testify that were there present.
2. What proposition he made I know not, but what opposition he made, both concerning the tendring of a call to me in wrighting, and concerning the manner of expressing my call, both he knoweth, and others can testifye that were there present.
The title of this Section supposeth. 1. that I had consented, 2. that afterwards J with drew my consent: the untruth of both which assertions hath been shown in the foregoing Sections. Here, he speaketh of matters that passed between us the next Consistory, after this meeting of the Classis. The story whereof was thus. A writing, wherein the agreement of the Answerer with the officers of the Church about my calling, was delivered to me by the Answerer, & Mr. A, which when I had read, I first gave them thanks for this expression of their good esteem of me, and then, to omit other passages, desired to be certified, whether the order was made in the Consistory which was promised. Whereby it appeareth that I still expected that an order should be made, more to my content then yet it had been. For answer hereunto, the Answerer told me, that they could do no more in that business, then had been done formerly When I heard this, & perceived, by a clause in that writing, that, in accepting this call, I should bind my self to conform to ⟨p. 188⟩the orders and customs of the Dutch Church in this particular, as well as in others, I made some demur indeed, and desired time for deliberation, and being urged by the Answerer to a speedy resolution, I gave my answer to them in the Consistory, in the end of the same week. But desiring, & obtaining secret conference with the Answerer, I acquainted him, in as inoffensive manner as I could, with my still continuing unsatisfiedness, about the lawfulness of that conformity which was expected, praying him to help me with his advise, that my desistance might be so ordered as might best conduce to the preventing of all disturbance, and offence. He refused to give advice, saying he might do nothing, of himself, in that matter. To omit other passages, seeing the Elders, and Deacons were now come together, we agreed to speak with them in the Consistory. As for his proceeding to hasten my calling, without delay, upon my supposed consent; the examining of the former Sections, hath sufficiently given light to the intelligent Reader, for the discovery of the vanity of this overture.
THe title of this Section supposeth. 1. that I had consented, 2. that afterwards J with drew my consent: the untruth of both which assertions hath bene shewen in the foregoing Sections. Here, he speaketh of matters that passed betweene us the next Consistory, after this meeting of the Classis. The story whereof was thus. A wrighting, wherein the agreement of the Answerer with the officers of the Church about my calling, was delivered to me by the Answerer, & Mr. A, which whē I had read, I first gave them thanckes for this expression of their good esteeme of me, and then, to omit other passages, desired to be certifyed, whether the order was made in the Consistory which was promised. Whereby it appeareth that I still expected that an order should be made, more to my content then yet it had bene. For answer hereunto, the Answerer told me, that they could doe no more in that buisenes, then had bene done formerly When I heard this, & perceived, by a clause in that wrighting, that, in accepting this call, I should bind my selfe to conforme to
But if any man think I made too strict an interpretation of the words in that writing, which the Answerer calleth a form of calling (because, upon the reading of it; I made some demur, desiring time of deliberation) let him know that, if I had accepted the calling delivered to me in that form, I had actually bound my self to conform to that unwarrantable custom. Nor is this my opinion alone, but the judgment of the Answerer, and (as he saith) of the Classis also, which will appear by his own words hereafter to be examined,1 wherein, to prove that M.B. was not of the same opinion with me, he produceth these words out of the form of his calling, which was sent to him in writing. For (saith he) being called to administer the word and dependences thereof, according to the order of these Reformed Churches, and especially of those which are combined with the Classis of Amsterdam, and making no exception against this form, but resting therein, after this question had been propounded unto him, this is taken for an evidence that he was willing to observe their order in the administration of Baptism. TO SUCH AS THEY USE TO DO, and so it was understood by the Classis.
But if any man thinck I made too strict an interpretation of the words in that wrighting, which the Answerer calleth a forme of calling (because, upon the reading of it; I made some demurr, desiring time of deliberation) let him know that, if I had accepted the calling delivered to me in that forme, I had actually bound my selfe to conforme to that unwarrantable custom. Nor is this my opinion alone, but the judgment of the Answerer, and (as he sayth) of the Classis also, which will appeare by his owne words hereafter to be examined,1 wherein, to prove that M.B. was not of the same opinion with me, he produceth these words out of the forme of his calling, which was sent to him in wrighting. For (sayth he) being called to administer the word and dependances thereof, according to the •rder of these Reformed Churches, and especially of those which are combined with the Classis of Amsterdam, and making no exception against this forme, but resting therein, after this question had bene propounded unto him, this is taken for an evidence that he was willing to observe their order in the administration of Baptisme. TO SƲCH AS THEY ƲSE TO DOE, and so it was understood by the Classis.
So that, it is not only the judgment of the Answerer but of the Classis also. Nor was this Mr. B. case alone, to have such an exposition put upon those words, in his form of calling, but in the same sense, the same form was tendered me. Therefore the Answerer addeth. And had Mr. D. accepted this call, when it was, in the same form, offered unto him, that would also have been taken for a grant of his professed agreement with us, &c. Now let the Reader judge, whether, my apprehensions, concerning the purpose of those expressions, so rightly concurring with the intention and meaning of the Classis, and of the Answerer, and my judgement being so settled concerning the unlawfulness of that custom, and all means for accommodation being frustrated, I had not cause to desire time for deliberation, and to be wholly turned, in my affections, from that calling and employment, which was so clogged with ill conditions.
So that, it is not only the judgment of the Answerer but of the Classis also. Nor was this Mr. B. case alone, to have such an exposition put upon those words, in his forme of calling, but in the same sense, the same forme was tendred me. Therefore the Answerer addeth. And had Mr. D. accepted this call, when it was, in the same forme, offered unto him, that would also have bene taken for a grant of his professed agreement with us, &c. Now let the Reader judge, whether, my apprehensions, concerning the purpose of those expressions, so rightly concurring with the intention and meaning of the Classis, and of the Answerer, and my judgement being so setled concerning the unlawfullnes of that custom, and all meanes for accommodation being frustrated, I had not cause to desire time for deliberation, and to be wholly turned, in my affections, from that calling and imployment, which was so clogged with ill conditions.
The Answerer beginneth this Section with a misreport of my withdrawing my consent, which, he saith, I had formerly given, whereas the truth is, that, from first to last, I was of the same judgment against this unwarrantable custom, and so expressed my self, without any alteration.
THe Answerer beginneth this Section with a misreport of my withdrawing my consent, which, he sayth, I had formerly given, whereas the truth is, that, from first to last, I was of the same judgment against this unwarrantable custom, and so expressed my selfe, without any alteration.
The pretende cause of my trouble with the civill Magistrates in England (as it appeared) was a pious worke, wherein I (with others more worthy) was intrusted, to witt, the redeeming of impropriations, & restoring of the meanes to the right use, the maintenance of faythfull and painfull ministers, in those places, where was most need. Wherein three other ministers (whereof two were Doctors of Divinity) and fowre Lawyers (of which one was the Kings Serjant at Law) and five Citizens (of whom one was Lord Major of London, when I came thence) were trustees with me, by the intreaty and appoyntment of many, some whereof are at rest, others are yet alive. The worke it selfe was applauded in that very order which was made in the Exchecquor against our proceeding in it: Our faithfullnes in discharging that trust was testifyed by his Maties Atturney generall (who prosecuted the suite against us) upon his examination of our accounts, which we gave in, upon our oathes. I had no more cause to flye for feare of trouble about this, then the rest, nor had they, or I any cause to withdraw our selves, at that time, when I came over. For the buisenes was wholly ended before my departure. This objection being answered, and the informer himselfe falling off from his report, the former motion, for their consent to my calling to that ministry, was, without my knowledge, revived, by the Elders. Before the Burgomasters had given their answer, they were informed by one or two of the Dutch ministers, both concerning me, and concerning this difference: when the Elders againe wayted upon them for their answer, the Burgomasters told them. 1. that they were satisfyed about the former report. 2. That they had received a very good report from one or two of the Dutch ministers, with whom they had speech, concerning me. 3. That the sayd ministers had acquainted them with some difference, which had risen about this custom, and that J had now promised to joyne ⟨p. 185⟩with the Classis, and to conforme to the orders, and customs of the Dutch Church, and, in particular, in this their manner of baptising all that are brought. And they concluded, in effect, in these words, we expect that he doe accordingly, and so you may proceed in your choyse. By this the Reader may perceive that matters were now so farr from being accommodated, that they were set in a worse state, then before.
