A19884:716
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Whereas he addeth, that, both he, and they promised to prevent all further occasion of offence, so much as in them lay, had this been done accordingly, the Elders might well have added, in way of testification, their persuasion, that no occasion would befall to work any scruple unto me in that which I feared. For, then the order which I desired, had been made to prevent further occasion of offence, seeing that lay in their power to do, if the Answerer would have joined with the Elders lovingly and freely therein, and no other course could help me, as the case now stood, which the Answerer knew, though the Elders and Deacons did not, all of them, see so far into it. Now, seeing this lay in them to do, and yet they did it not, neither would the Answerer suffer it to be done, how was this promise performed of doing what lay in them?
Whereas he addeth, that, both he, and they promised to prevent all further occasion of offence, so much as in them lay, had this bene done accordingly, the Elders might well have added, in way of testification, their persuasion, that no occasion would befall to worke any scruple unto me in that which I feared. For, then the order which I desired, had bene made to prevent further occasion of offence, seing that lay in their power to doe, if the Answerer would have joyned with the Elders lovingly and freely therein, and no other course could helpe me, as the case now stood, which the Answerer knew, though the Elders and Deacons did not, all of them, see so farr into it. Now, seing this lay in them to doe, and yet they did it not, neither would the Answerer suffer it to be done, how was this promise performed of doing what lay in them?
When I had spoken somewhat, to show the insufficiency of this order to secure me: they again prayed me to walk forth, and, after a shorter absence then before, they sent for me to return to them, to hear what was added for perfecting that order, which they wrote down, in these words. And further we purpose if any should at unawares, bring such children, whose parents are not members, we shall desire and counsel them by the Coster (without absolute denial) to bring their children the next exercise following, that, in the mean time, there may be conveniency of examination.
When I had spoken somewhat, to shew the insufficiency of this order to secure me: they againe prayed me to walke forth, and, after a shorter absence then before, they sent for me to returne to them, to heare what was added for perfecting that order, which they wrote downe, in these words. And further we purpose if any should at unawares, bring such children, whose parents are not members, we shall desire and counsaile them by the Coster (without absolute denyall) to bring their children the next excercise following, that, in the meane time, there may be conveniency of examination.
Upon which Additional I will note some observations. 1. That the Elders and Deacons, did, in effect, revoke that testification, which was last spoken of. For, by their adding of this ⟨p. 191⟩to what was then done, it appeared that themselves saw that the former order was not sufficient to safeguard me from the thing that I feared. 2. That this Additional is only a declaration of their purpose, but hath not the force of an order, 3. That, considering that they purposed only to signify so much privately to those persons who should at anytime so come (and not to have it published, that the whole Church might take knowledge of it) and that by the Coster, a mean man, whom they, to whom he should speak, would easily slight, and his commission was only to desire and counsel them, which they would easily reject, and ask him, what he had to do to counsel them to defer the baptising of their children, In this case, what could he answer but this, J do only desire and counsel you, but I may not absolutely deny you? And, how can such a course secure me?
Vpon which Additionall I will noate some observations. 1. That the Elders and Deacons, did, in effect, revoke that testification, which was last spoken of. For, by their adding of this ⟨p. 191⟩to what was then done, it appeared that themselves saw that the former order was not sufficient to safeguard me from the thing that I feared. 2. That this Additionall is onely a declaration of their purpose, but hath not the force of an order, 3. That, considering that they purposed onely to signifye so much privately to those persons who should at anytime so come (and not to have it published, that the wholl Church might take knowledge of it) and that by the Coster, a meane man, whom they, to whom he should speake, would easily slight, and his commission was only to desire and counsaile them, which they would easily reject, and aske him, what he had to doe to counsaile them to deferr the baptising of their children, In this case, what could he answer but this, J doe onely desire and counsail you, but I may not absolutely deny you? And, how can such a course secure me?
Here again the Answerer misreporteth my answer: for he affirmeth, that this would not content me, unless there might have been an absolute denial of Baptism, in such a case, if entreaty would not serve. But I made no such Answer, neither is any such answer recorded in the Acts of that Consistory, which I have purposely examined. All that I stood upon, was, that a firm order might be made in the Consistory to secure me from future trouble, about that matter. But this the Answerer would not permit to be done, though it might have been done, without any offence to the Classis, and with much content to the Church. So that I have just cause to complain of his want of brotherly moderation, in this point, what soever he seemed to yield, which, he knew, was not sufficient to prevent the thing which I feared.
Here againe the Answerer misreporteth my answer: for he affirmeth, that this would not content me, unlesse there might have benean absolute denyall of Baptisme, in such a case, if intreaty would not serve. But I made no such Answer, neither is any such answer recorded in the Acts of that Consistory, which I have purposely examined. All that I stoode upon, was, that a firme order might be made in the Consistory to secure me from future trouble, about that matter. But this the Answerer would not permit to be done, though it might have bene done, without any offence to the Classis, and with much content to the Church. So that I have just cause to complaine of his want of brotherly moderation, in this point, what soever he seemed to yeeld, which, he knew, was not sufficient to prevent the thing which I feared.
The following passage is an unjust reproach, which I will pass by, having answered to the substance of it formerly. How unlawful that practise is, and how necessary it was that I should witness against, it doth appear in my Reply to his twelfth Section.
The following passage is an unjust reproach, which I will passe by, having answered to the substance of it formerly. How unlawfull that practise is, and how necessary it was that I should witnesse against, it doth appeare in my Reply to his twelfth Section.
In Conclusion. when the Elders prayed me to defer my answer to another time, the Answerer told me, that, when I should give mine answer, if I did accept of this calling, I must promise ⟨p. 192⟩to rest in, that is, to conform to, the writing of the five Ministers. Whereby it appeareth, that, not withstanding all these pretences of accommodation, conformity to that writing, which bound me to this disorder of promiscuous baptizing, was, first and last, the condition, whereupon my calling to that ministry, must stand or fall, and that the Answerer would have it so. Thus that day passed.
In Conclusion. when the Elders prayed me to deferr my answer to another time, the Answerer told me, that, when I should give myne answer, if I did accept of this calling, I must promise ⟨p. 192⟩to rest in, that is, to conforme to, the wrighting of the five Ministers. Whereby it appeareth, that, not withstanding all these pretences of accommodation, conformity to that wrighting, which bound me to this disorder of promiscuous baptizing, was, first and last, the condition, whereupon my calling to that ministry, must stand or fall, and that the Answerer would have it so. Thus that day passed.
Now, though I had just cause of offence at these passages, yet, that it might appear how much I was for peace and brotherly concord, the next day of their meeting, being the 15 of Feb. I came into the Consistory to give my answer, which was, that, if a promise must be made by me to conform to the judgment of those Ministers set down as an order for me to rest in, I could not do it, because the promise of doing any thing is a Confession that the thing is lawful to be done, which I do not believe to be so, in this case, yet, because I much prized their loves and tendered their peace (as I truly told them) I was willing; if they desired it, to go on in assisting the Answerer, as I formerly had done, for a convenient time, to see, if, in the interim, by a friendly acquainting my self with the Dutch Ministers, I might be satisfied about the lawfulness of this custom, whereunto my conformity was required, or procure that this question might be laid down, & might understand what those other orders & customs of the Dutch Church are which I must observe, & more fully know the members & state of the English Church, wherewith I should join. In which motion I intended no intrusion (which I have always abhorred, and was very far from, in that place) but only the peace and good of the Church. This the Elders apprehended to be very reasonable, & desired that it might take effect, but the Answerer was otherwise minded, as it is, in express words, by the Elders recorded in the Acts of that Consistory.
Now, though I had just cause of offence at these passages, yet, that it might appeare how much I was for peace and brotherly concord, the next day of their meeting, being the 15 of Feb. I came into the Consistory to give my answer, which was, that, if a promise must be made by me to conforme to the judgment of those Ministers set downe as an order for me to rest in, I could not doe it, because the promise of doing any thing is a Confessiō that the thing is lawfull to be done, which I doe not beleive to be so, in this case, yet, because I much prized their loves and tendred their peace (as I truely told them) I was willing; if they desired it, to goe on in assisting the Answerer, as I formerly had done, for a convenient time, to see, if, in the interim, by a freindly acquainting my selfe with the Dutch Ministers, I might be satisfyed about the lawfullnes of this custom, whereunto my conformity was required, or procure that this questiō might be layd downe, & might understand what those other orders & customs of the Dutch Church are which I must observe, & more fully know the mēbers & state of the English Church, wherwith I should joyne. In which motion I intended no intrusion (which I have alwayes abhorred, and was very farr from, in that place) but onely the peace and good of the Church. This the Elders apprehended to be very reasonable, & desired that it might take effect, but the Answerer was otherwise minded, as it is, in expresse words, by the Elders recorded in the Acts of that Consistory.
IN this Section we have the story of passages concerning this business, in three Classes, and with the Magistrates. But, before I examine them, it may be demanded, why this matter was brought into the Classis, seeing I had in the Consistory declared my not accepting the call, which was offered me, upon those terms? was it because the Consistory had not power to give me a convenient time for informing my self concerning the orders & customs of the Dutch Church, by consent amongst themselves, without seeking to the Classis? But I come to the particulars.
IN this Section we have the story of passages concerning this buisenes, in three Classes, and with the Magistrates. But, before I examine them, it may be demanded, why this matter was brought into the Classis, seing I had in the Consistory declared my not accepting the call, which was offered me, upon those termes? was it because the Consistory had not power to give me a convenient time for informing my selfe concerning the orders & customs of the Dutch Church, by consent amongst themselves, without seeking to the Classis? But I come to the particulars.
Concerning the first Classical meeting four things are reported. 1. their dislike of my change. 2.1 their approbation of the five ministers writing. 3. the deputation of diverse Ministers to go to me. 4. the persuasions which these deputies used.
Concerning the first Classicall meeting fowre things are reported. 1. their dislike of my change. 2.1 their approbation of the five ministers wrighting. 3. the deputation of diverse Ministers to goe to me. 4. the persuasions which these deputyes used.
To the first] The Reader, in considering the former Sections, will find that my judgment hath been against this promiscuous baptizing, which the Answerer required, from the first to this instant, without any change.
To the first] The Reader, in considering the former Sections, will find that my judgment hath bene against this promiscuous baptizing, which the Answerer required, from the first to this instant, without any change.
To the second,] 1. It it is not to be expected that they should reprove, or dislike that writing, which was framed in defence of their customs. 2. If this be alleged for the reproof of my dissenting from them, how easily can I reply that no Synod of these Churches alloweth them to require this of me: but I will answer him, as Augustine doeth an Arian, with whom he had to do, saying, Neither may I allege the Council of Nice, nor thou the Council of Ariminum,1 thereby to prejudice one another, but by the Scriptures which are witnesses proper ⟨p. 194⟩to neither, but common to both, matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason ought to be debated. But, neither the five ministers produced any ground from the Scripture, to warrant their opinion or practise in this particular, not the Classis, to justify their approbation, and confirmation thereof.
To the second,] 1. It it is not to be expected that they should reprove, or dislike that wrighting, which was framed in defence of their customs. 2. If this be alleadged for the reproofe of my dissenting from them, how easily can I reply that no Synod of these Churches alloweth them to require this of me: but I will answer him, as Augustine doeth an Arrian, with whom he had to doe, saying, Neither may I alleadge the Councill of Nice, nor thou the Councill of Ariminum,1 thereby to prejudice one another, but by the Scriptures which are witnesses proper ⟨p. 194⟩to neither, but commō to boath, matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason ought to be debated. But, neither the five ministers produced any ground from the Scripture, to warrant their opinion or practise in this particular, not the Classis, to justifye their approbation, and confirmation thereof.
To the third] 1. That is more fitly called a command, then a counsel, wherein a man is bound to rest, and that under such a penalty. 2. Three Dutch Ministers, being deputed to speak with me, desired to know what J disliked, in that letter. I answered them, 1, that I disliked the whole drift of it, which is to deny me that liberty, in Holland, which the Dutch Churches have in England, by a grant of Edw: 6, to Johannes a Lasco, under the broad seal of England, which is continued to this day. 2. I told them the danger of that expression [quorum parents, susceptor esve] whereby I am required to baptize all infants, that are brought, if, either their parents, or sureties are Christians. For, by this rule, the children of Jews, Turks, and Pagans (of all sorts) may be baptised, if a Christian present them. Then, they seemed willing to alter that, and began to wright, but fell off again from their purpose, saying that they would acquaint the Classis with what I said. And so the writing remaineth unaltered, in my hand, to this day.
To the third] 1. That is more fitly called a command, then a counsail, wherein a man is bound to rest, and that under such a paenalty. 2. Three Dutch Ministers, being deputed to speake with me, desired to know what J disliked, in that letter. I answered them, 1, that I disliked the wholl drift of it, which is to deny me that liberty, in Holland, which the Dutch Churches have in England, by a grant of Edw: 6, to Iohannes a Lasco, under the broad seale of England, which is continued to this day. 2. I told them the danger of that expression [quorum parentes, susceptor esve] whereby I am required to baptize all infants, that are brought, if, either their parents, or suretyes are Christians. For, by this rule, the children of Iewes, Turkes, and Pagans (of all sorts) may be baptised, if a Christian present them. Then, they seemed willing to alter that, and began to wright, but fell off againe from their purpose, saying that they would acquaint the Classis with what I sayd. And so the wrighting remaineth unaltered, in my hand, to this day.
To the fourth,] If these two words, entreaties and persuasions, signify one and the same thing, without any difference in the sense, I grant all to be true, which he saith, so that, to their desire of my accepting the call, it be added, upon the condition premised. But, if, by entreaty, he mean mere desires, without arguments to work upon my affections, and, by persuasions, he mean entreaties backed with arguments, to work upon my judgment & affections, then, I grant, entreaties were used, but not persuasions: For I do not remember one argument used by them to induce me, but rather a professed declining thereof, saying that they came not to dispute.
To the fourth,] If these two words, intreatyes and persuasions, signifye one and the same thing, without any difference in the sense, I grant all to be true, which he sayth, so that, to their desire of my accepting the call, it be added, upon the condition premised. But, if, by intreaty, he meane mere desires, without arguments to worke upon my affections, and, by persuasions, he meane intreatyes backed with arguments, to worke upon my judgment & affections, then, I grant, intreatyes were used, but not persuasions: For I doe not remember one argument used by them to induce me, but rather a professed declining thereof, saying that they came not to dispute.
Concerning the second Classical meeting.] It is true, that then I sent them a writing, by advise of one of the three ministers whom they deputed to speak with me: the end thereof was ⟨p. 195⟩to relate the truth concerning passages between the Answerer and me, to prevent and remove misreports. 2. to persuade them by reasons, not to require it of me, as a condition of my calling, to rest in that writing. 3. to acquaint them with my desire of more time propounded by me to the Elders, and accepted by them; wherein had the Classis condescended to so equal a motion, it might have been much for the peace of the Church. I am certain, I intended nothing else in it. But they were herein overswayed by sinister suggestions, arising from a jealousy, that, if I had been in, for a time, the desire of the congregation would be more strong towards me, where as my true purpose was, in that time, if J could not conform to their orders, to order matters so, that they, who much desired my settling there, might be willing to think upon some other, and my purpose was to have given the best help I could for the settling of some other, whom they should desire, in a way of peace and concord. To conclude. All that I aimed at, in that motion, was, either to accept their call, with satisfaction to my conscience, or to desist, with the content of the members, that so no disturbance might arise, for my sake. As for the deputation here spoken of; the ministers deputed, only again prayed me to yield to that writing, as before. There were two of the Elders present, at this time, with some others, witnesses hereof. From us they went to the Classis, and, the same afternoon, returned to me with this answer, or to this effect. That the Classis did judge that I had time enough already to understand the orders, and customs of the Dutch Church, and to satisfy my self concerning the conformity required in that writing, yet they were content that I should proceed in assisting Mr. P. the month following, till the next Classis, but required of me, that if, in the mean space, I could not yield, that I should then desist voluntarily, else they must be constrained to complain to the Magistrate. Which message I received in the presence of diverse witnesses, and promised to do accordingly.
Concerning the second Classicall meeting.] It is true, that then I sent them a wrighting, by advise of one of the three ministers whom they deputed to speake with me: the end thereof was ⟨p. 195⟩
This J promised and performed, I confess, only for the Churches peace, and mine own, yet disliking their injurious manner of proceeding, which I am content to pass by, with such a touch, till further provocation.
This J promised and performed, I confesse, only for the Churches peace, and myne owne, yet disliking their injurious manner of proceeding, which I am content to passe by, with such a touch, till further provocation.
