A19884:725
A19884:725
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.An apologeticall reply to a booke called an ansvver to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his wrightings. By Iohn Davenporte BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Concerning the first Classical meeting four things are reported. 1. their dislike of my change. 2.1 their approbation of the five ministers writing. 3. the deputation of diverse Ministers to go to me. 4. the persuasions which these deputies used.
Concerning the first Classicall meeting fowre things are reported. 1. their dislike of my change. 2.1 their approbation of the five ministers wrighting. 3. the deputation of diverse Ministers to goe to me. 4. the persuasions which these deputyes used.
To the first] The Reader, in considering the former Sections, will find that my judgment hath been against this promiscuous baptizing, which the Answerer required, from the first to this instant, without any change.
To the first] The Reader, in considering the former Sections, will find that my judgment hath bene against this promiscuous baptizing, which the Answerer required, from the first to this instant, without any change.
To the second,] 1. It it is not to be expected that they should reprove, or dislike that writing, which was framed in defence of their customs. 2. If this be alleged for the reproof of my dissenting from them, how easily can I reply that no Synod of these Churches alloweth them to require this of me: but I will answer him, as Augustine doeth an Arian, with whom he had to do, saying, Neither may I allege the Council of Nice, nor thou the Council of Ariminum,1 thereby to prejudice one another, but by the Scriptures which are witnesses proper ⟨p. 194⟩to neither, but common to both, matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason ought to be debated. But, neither the five ministers produced any ground from the Scripture, to warrant their opinion or practise in this particular, not the Classis, to justify their approbation, and confirmation thereof.
To the second,] 1. It it is not to be expected that they should reprove, or dislike that wrighting, which was framed in defence of their customs. 2. If this be alleadged for the reproofe of my dissenting from them, how easily can I reply that no Synod of these Churches alloweth them to require this of me: but I will answer him, as Augustine doeth an Arrian, with whom he had to doe, saying, Neither may I alleadge the Councill of Nice, nor thou the Councill of Ariminum,1 thereby to prejudice one another, but by the Scriptures which are witnesses proper ⟨p. 194⟩to neither, but commō to boath, matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason ought to be debated. But, neither the five ministers produced any ground from the Scripture, to warrant their opinion or practise in this particular, not the Classis, to justifye their approbation, and confirmation thereof.
To the third] 1. That is more fitly called a command, then a counsel, wherein a man is bound to rest, and that under such a penalty. 2. Three Dutch Ministers, being deputed to speak with me, desired to know what J disliked, in that letter. I answered them, 1, that I disliked the whole drift of it, which is to deny me that liberty, in Holland, which the Dutch Churches have in England, by a grant of Edw: 6, to Johannes a Lasco, under the broad seal of England, which is continued to this day. 2. I told them the danger of that expression [quorum parents, susceptor esve] whereby I am required to baptize all infants, that are brought, if, either their parents, or sureties are Christians. For, by this rule, the children of Jews, Turks, and Pagans (of all sorts) may be baptised, if a Christian present them. Then, they seemed willing to alter that, and began to wright, but fell off again from their purpose, saying that they would acquaint the Classis with what I said. And so the writing remaineth unaltered, in my hand, to this day.
To the third] 1. That is more fitly called a command, then a counsail, wherein a man is bound to rest, and that under such a paenalty. 2. Three Dutch Ministers, being deputed to speake with me, desired to know what J disliked, in that letter. I answered them, 1, that I disliked the wholl drift of it, which is to deny me that liberty, in Holland, which the Dutch Churches have in England, by a grant of Edw: 6, to Iohannes a Lasco, under the broad seale of England, which is continued to this day. 2. I told them the danger of that expression [quorum parentes, susceptor esve] whereby I am required to baptize all infants, that are brought, if, either their parents, or suretyes are Christians. For, by this rule, the children of Iewes, Turkes, and Pagans (of all sorts) may be baptised, if a Christian present them. Then, they seemed willing to alter that, and began to wright, but fell off againe from their purpose, saying that they would acquaint the Classis with what I sayd. And so the wrighting remaineth unaltered, in my hand, to this day.
To the fourth,] If these two words, entreaties and persuasions, signify one and the same thing, without any difference in the sense, I grant all to be true, which he saith, so that, to their desire of my accepting the call, it be added, upon the condition premised. But, if, by entreaty, he mean mere desires, without arguments to work upon my affections, and, by persuasions, he mean entreaties backed with arguments, to work upon my judgment & affections, then, I grant, entreaties were used, but not persuasions: For I do not remember one argument used by them to induce me, but rather a professed declining thereof, saying that they came not to dispute.
To the fourth,] If these two words, intreatyes and persuasions, signifye one and the same thing, without any difference in the sense, I grant all to be true, which he sayth, so that, to their desire of my accepting the call, it be added, upon the condition premised. But, if, by intreaty, he meane mere desires, without arguments to worke upon my affections, and, by persuasions, he meane intreatyes backed with arguments, to worke upon my judgment & affections, then, I grant, intreatyes were used, but not persuasions: For I doe not remember one argument used by them to induce me, but rather a professed declining thereof, saying that they came not to dispute.
Concerning the second Classical meeting.] It is true, that then I sent them a writing, by advise of one of the three ministers whom they deputed to speak with me: the end thereof was ⟨p. 195⟩to relate the truth concerning passages between the Answerer and me, to prevent and remove misreports. 2. to persuade them by reasons, not to require it of me, as a condition of my calling, to rest in that writing. 3. to acquaint them with my desire of more time propounded by me to the Elders, and accepted by them; wherein had the Classis condescended to so equal a motion, it might have been much for the peace of the Church. I am certain, I intended nothing else in it. But they were herein overswayed by sinister suggestions, arising from a jealousy, that, if I had been in, for a time, the desire of the congregation would be more strong towards me, where as my true purpose was, in that time, if J could not conform to their orders, to order matters so, that they, who much desired my settling there, might be willing to think upon some other, and my purpose was to have given the best help I could for the settling of some other, whom they should desire, in a way of peace and concord. To conclude. All that I aimed at, in that motion, was, either to accept their call, with satisfaction to my conscience, or to desist, with the content of the members, that so no disturbance might arise, for my sake. As for the deputation here spoken of; the ministers deputed, only again prayed me to yield to that writing, as before. There were two of the Elders present, at this time, with some others, witnesses hereof. From us they went to the Classis, and, the same afternoon, returned to me with this answer, or to this effect. That the Classis did judge that I had time enough already to understand the orders, and customs of the Dutch Church, and to satisfy my self concerning the conformity required in that writing, yet they were content that I should proceed in assisting Mr. P. the month following, till the next Classis, but required of me, that if, in the mean space, I could not yield, that I should then desist voluntarily, else they must be constrained to complain to the Magistrate. Which message I received in the presence of diverse witnesses, and promised to do accordingly.
Concerning the second Classicall meeting.] It is true, that then I sent them a wrighting, by advise of one of the three ministers whom they deputed to speake with me: the end thereof was ⟨p. 195⟩
This J promised and performed, I confess, only for the Churches peace, and mine own, yet disliking their injurious manner of proceeding, which I am content to pass by, with such a touch, till further provocation.
This J promised and performed, I confesse, only for the Churches peace, and myne owne, yet disliking their injurious manner of proceeding, which I am content to passe by, with such a touch, till further provocation.
Concerning the third Classical meeting.] It is true; that having occasion of absence,1 at that time, I left my mind in writing with one of the Elders, both in Latin, and English, to the end that he, or they whom the Consistory should depute to be at the next Classis, might, either report by word, or show in writing mine answer, as should be thought most expedient. It is also true, that, in that writing, I signified that my mind was wholly turned away from accepting that call (viz upon those terms) and that I did voluntarily desist (viz; as the Mariner doeth voluntarily cast some goods into the sea, in a storm, to prevent a greater hurt) and that I complained, at the same time, of the Answerers unbrotherly usage of me in such particulars, as are there mentioned; Neither were those complaints unjust, as the Reader may partly perceive, by what hath been said, & may more fully, when the Answerer shall attempt to clear himself of the particulars there charged upon him, which here he doeth not, neither indeed can he.
Concerning the third Classicall meeting.] It is true; that having occasion of absence,1 at that time, I left my mind in wrighting with one of the Elders, both in Latine, and English, to the end that he, or they whom the Consistory should depute to be at the next Classis, might, either report by word, or shew in wrighting myne answer, as should be thought most expedient. It is also true, that, in that wrighting, I signifyed that my mind was wholly turned away from accepting that call (viz upon those termes) and that I did voluntarily desist (viz; as the Marriner doeth voluntarily cast some goods into the sea, in a storme, to prevent a greater hurt) and that I complained, at the same time, of the Answerers unbrotherly usage of me in such particulars, as are there mentioned; Neither were those complaints unjust, as the Reader may partly perceive, by what hath bene sayd, & may more fully, when the Answerer shall attempt to cleare himselfe of the particulars there charged upon him, which here he doeth not, neither indeed can he.
Concerning the Magistrates requiring of them to desist.] It would be known, by whose procurement this was done. And, for him that stirred them up thereunto, my hearty prayer is, that he may escape the judgment of God by judging himself for that unrighteous act. Else, I fear, he will find that injuries done against a Church, in such important cases, are no small sins.
Concerning the Magistrates requiring of them to desist.] It would be knowne, by whose procurement this was done. And, for him that stirred them up thereunto, my hearty prayer is, that he may escape the judgment of God by judging himselfe for that unrighteous act. Else, I feare, he will find that injuryes done against a Church, in such important cases, are no small sinnes.
Concerning an answer made to my writing, by some, whom the Classis deputed thereunto.] That answer was never communicated to me, though I have heard a report thereof. Had J perused it, I should have, either yielded, or replied, as the case had required. Had this Answerer been of the same mind with them, to suppress this treatise, as they did their writing (which, I believe, was more in offensively penned) the adversaries might have wanted that cause of insulting and reproaching us, for these contentions and jars, which now they seem to have.
Concerning an answer made to my wrighting, by some, whom the Classis deputed thereunto.] That answer was never communicated to me, though I have heard a report thereof. Had J perused it, I should have, either yeelded, or replyed, as the case had required. Had this Answerer bene of the same mind with them, to suppresse this treatise, as they did their wrighting (which, I beleive, was more in offencively penned) the adversaryes might have wanted that cause of insulting and reproaching us, for these contentions and jarrs, which now they seeme to have.
That the truth of this passage may appear, the Reader may be pleased to understand, 1, that, after my desistance from the public work, I would have returned to my own Country, but that it was now more unsafe and hazardous for me so to do, then formerly, by a malicious and false report suggested against me in England, by one in Amsterdam (whose name I will conceal, for some reasons, at this time) this audacious Sycophant was not ashamed to inform that I had, in the pulpit, railed against the government of England, against which, the Answerer, and the whole Church are able, and, I hope, ready to testify for my innocency, in that particular: yea, any that have heard or known me, I think will undertake for me, that I am far from railing, at any time, much more in the pulpit, and mine own conscience abundantly cleareth me thereof, in the sight of God. Yet this report was too easily received, and thereupon much bitterness, in terrifying menaces, was expressed against me, in public audience. This I only mention to show the cause of my staying in these parts. 2. Being thus hindered from returning to England, my family also being with me in Amsterdam, I was willing to be as profitable, as I might, to others, without giving just offence to any. For this end, being requested by the Master of the family, where I sojourned, I set a convenient time apart, every Lords day, about 5 a clock in the afternoon, (which was above an hour after the sermon was ended in the English Church) to catechise both our families, upon such grounds of Divinity as I collected from the Scriptures, which I opened and applied to them. To this exercise at first, few ⟨p. 198⟩came, afterwards more coming to the knowledge of it, more resorted: the greatest number (for ought I have heard) which, at the most, have been observed to be present at it, exceeded not 80 persons. It is true, that, as the number increased, some forms were provided for them to sit upon, to save the chairs & stools from hurt. I had the less cause of suspicion, that this would be offensive, seeing it hindered none from the public ordinances which my self and all the rest frequented constantly, and seeing almost as great a number had resorted to a like exercise, at the same hour, in a private family, with the Answerers approbation, formerly.
THat the truth of this passage may appeare, the Reader may be pleased to understand, 1, that, after my desistance from the publick worke, I would have returned to my owne Country, but that it was now more unsafe and hazardous for me so to doe, then formerly, by a malicious and false report suggested against me in England, by one in Amsterdam (whose name I will conceale, for some reasons, at this time) this audacious Sycophant was not ashamed to informe that I had, in the pulpitt, rayled against the government of England, against which, the Answerer, and the wholl Church are able, and, I hope, ready to testifye for my innocency, in that particular: yea, any that have heard or knowne me, I thinck will undertake for me, that I am farr from rayling, at any time, much more in the pulpitt, and myne owne conscience abundantly cleareth me thereof, in the sight of God. Yet this report was too easily received, and thereupon much bitternes, in terrifying menaces, was expressed against me, in publick audience. This I only mention to shew the cause of my staying in these parts. 2. Being thus hindred from returning to England, my family also being with me in Amsterdam, I was willing to be as proffitable, as I might, to others, without giving just offence to any. For this end, being requested by the Master of the family, where I sojourned, I set a convenient time apart, every Lords day, about 5 a clock in the afternoone, (which was above an houre after the sermon was ended in the English Church) to catechise boath our familyes, upon such grounds of Divinity as I collected from the Scriptures, which I opened and applyed to them. To this excercise at first, few
But now the case was altered, and the Answerer raised causeless jealousies,1 concerning this course, as if it had been the beginning of some Sect. But most injuriously, as not only his own pen declareth in the following Section, but also those that heard can testify, from the whole scope of that exercise, which was to arm them against the danger of being carried away by the errors of Sectaries, and the open carriage of it, manifesteth. For, not only the Elders and Deacons would have showed their dislike, if any such sinister courses had been attempted, as their place required, but also those, who came as spies (and we knew to be such, yet excluded none) would have disclosed it to the Answerer, and divulged it to the world. Yea? and mine own conscience knoweth, that one main encouragement of my upholding that private exercise, was, that thereby a rent in the Church might be prevented, and the public peace preserved, whilst the members were somewhat quieted and contented with that help, in private, which was denied them in public; and mine own heart is privy to my intendments, at that time, of doing the best offices I could, for the quiet settling of a faithful man, in the public work, if Gods providence should offer one unto them, whilst I stayed with them, that so peace and concord might be wrought between the Pastor and people, if it might be, before my departure thence. This was my intent. And the event showed that J was not wholly mistaken in my conjecture, as will be evident to him that shall compare the carriage of matters, whilst I lived among them, with the accidents that happened since. Yet, ⟨p. 199⟩when I perceived that the Answerer took such offence at this exercise, I desisted, before any spake with Mr. Wh: from the Classis, but with me none of them ever spake about it. Thus J may say with him in Aristophanes. [Greek or Hebrew] For doing well, I suffer ill. But the servant is not above his Lord.
But now the case was altered, and the Answerer raysed causeles jealousyes,1 concerning this course, as if it had bene the beginning of some Sect. But most injuriously, as not only his owne pen declareth in the following Section, but also those that heard can testifye, from the wholl scope of that exercise, which was to arme them against the danger of being carryed away by the errours of Sectaryes, and the open carriage of it, manifesteth. For, not only the Elders and Deacons would have shewed their dislike, if any such sinister courses had bene attempted, as their place required, but also those, who came as spyes (and we knew to be such, yet excluded none) would have disclosed it to the Answerer, and divulged it to the world. Yea? and myne owne conscience knoweth, that one mayne incouragement of my upholding that private excercise, was, that thereby a rent in the Church might be prevented, and the publick peace preserved, whilest the members were somewhat quieted and contented with that helpe, in private, which was denyed them in publick; and myne owne heart is privy to my intendments, at that time, of doing the best offices I could, for the quiet setling of a faythfull man, in the publick worke, if Gods providence should offer one unto them, whilest I stayed with them, that so peace and concord might be wrought between the Pastor and people, if it might be, before my departure thence. This was my intent. And the event shewed that J was not wholly mistaken in my conjecture, as will be evident to him that shall compare the carriage of matters, whilest I lived among them, with the accidents that happened since. Yet,
AS one absurdity usually follows another, so was it with the Answerer in penning this treatise. For, having taken liberty to cast the suspicion of all other miscarriages, which have happened in others, upon me, (though most injuriously) he now continueth the same note, saying that howsoever I do mislike & speak against Separation and Schism, and reprove the same, yet can I not altogether clear my self of being some occasion of Division amongst them, whilst I maintain such practises so different from them.
AS one absurdity usually followes another, so was it with the Answerer in penning this treatise. For, having taken liberty to cast the suspicion of all other miscarriages, which have happened in others, upon me, (though most injuriously) he now continueth the same noate, saying that howsoever I doe mislike & speake against Seperation and Schysme, and reprove the same, yet can I not altogether cleare my selfe of being some occasion of Division amongst them, whilest I maintaine such practises so different from them.
Ans: 1. It is well that his pen doeth clear me from inclining to Schism or Separation, whose tongue hath unjustly raised suspicions thereof against me in the minds of some. Yea, that his own hand writing, in this Section,1 hath cleared me of those contrary aspersions, and imputations, by himself cast upon me, and written and printed against me in other Sections 2. What need is there, that I should go about to clear my self from that which is not a fault? For, if to be some occasion of division among men, by maintaining a practise different from others be blame-worthy, then Paul and Barnabas were to be blamed for that practise of theirs different from those believers ⟨p. 200⟩who held that it was needful to be circumcised, after the manner of Moses. 2For, the text saith, they had no small dissension, and disputation with them. So were Paul and Silas, who were accused at Philippi, before the Magistrates, as exceeding troublers of the city for teaching customs, 3which were not lawful for them to receive being Romans. At Thessalonica, Jason & other brethren are accused to be those that turn the world upside down. Nor can it be denied that Paul was some occasion of that great stir and uproar,4 which arose in Ephesus, whereby the whole city was filled with confusion. And, howsoever he laboured, by all concord with them in things lawful, to enjoy peace at Jerusalem (as by purifying himself &c.5) yet, upon a causeless jealously of his bringing Greeks into the Temple (because they saw Trophimus with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the Temple) the whole city was moved, and of this commotion Paul could not altogether clear himself of being some occasion, by maintaining some practises so different from the Jews. 3. The Answerer seemeth to insinuate somewhat against my journey out of town, two or three days before the time of administration of the Lords supper (wherein he saith) I was accompanied with some members of the Church, who (as he heard) did go with me, and leave the communion, this, he saith, gave great occasion of strife & other offence to the Church, & was a course tending to Schism. Repl. 1. For the complainants, who, he saith, separated themselves at that time;
Ans: 1. It is well that his pen doeth cleare me from inclining to Schysme or Seperation, whose tongue hath unjustly raysed suspicions thereof against me in the minds of some. Yea, that his owne hand wrighting, in this Section,1 hath cleared me of those contrary aspersions, and imputations, by himselfe cast upon me, and written and printed against me in other Sections 2. What need is there, that I should goe about to cleare my selfe from that which is not a fault? For, if to be some occasion of division among men, by maintaining a practise different from others be blame-worthy, then Paul and Barnabas were to be blamed for that practise of theyrs different from those beleivers ⟨p. 200⟩who held that it was needfull to be circumcised, after the manner of Moses. 2For, the text sayth, they had no small dissention, and disputation with them. So were Paul and Silas, who were accused at Philippi, before the Magistrates, as exceeding troublers of the citty for teaching customs, 3which were not lawfull for them to receive being Romans. At Thessalonica, Iason & other brethren are accused to be those that turne the world upside downe. Nor can it be denyed that Paul was some occasion of that great stirr and uprore,4 which arose in Ephesus, whereby the wholl citty was filled with confusion. And, howsoever he laboured, by all concord with them in things lawfull, to injoy peace at Ierusalem (as by purifying himselfe &c.5) yet, upon a causeles jealously of his bringing Greekes into the Temple (because they saw Trophimus with him in the citty, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the Temple) the wholl citty was moved, and of this commotion Paul could not altogether cleare himselfe of being some occasion, by maintaining some practises so different from the Iewes. 3. The Answerer seemeth to insinuate somewhat against my journey out of towne, two or three dayes before the time of administration of the Lords supper (wherein he sayth) I was accompanied with some members of the Church, who (as he heard) did goe with me, and leave the communion, this, he sayth, gave great occasion of strife & other offence to the Church, & was a course tending to Schysme. Repl. 1. For the complanants, who, he sayth, seperated themselves at that time;