P. 1. About Conformity, forbear me here, for I must deal with you of that by it self elsewhere. 2. As to my doctrine of Justification, if I have not fully justified it elsewhere, I shall not now on this occasion. 3. But whether you or I be righter about Popery, let us now debate. Have you read my Safe Relig. and my Key for Catholics, and my Treatise of the Certainty of Christianity without Popery, and my late Dialogue, and my Treat. against Johnson of the Visibility of the Church? and others against Popery?

P. 1. About Conformity, forbear me here, for I must deal with you of that by it self elsewhere. 2. As to my doctrine of Justification, if I have not fully justified it elsewhere, I shall not now on this occasion. 3. But whether you or I be righter about Popery, let us now debate. Have you read my Safe Relig. and my Key for Catholicks, and my Treatise of the Certainty of Christianity without Popery, and my late Dialogue, and my Treat. against Johnson of the Visibility of the Church? and others against Popery?

S. I have somewhat else to do than read all your Writings.

P. Why have you not then somewhat else to do than hear me, and backbite me, and judge of things which you have not leisure to understand? Do we not still deal on hard terms with such men as you? that neither speaking nor writing can make them know our minds? Have all your party that revile me, done more each one against Popery than I have done? But if this be all that you have to call me to repentance for, I have a great deal more to say against my self; And now I will deal faithfully with you: ⟨p. 285⟩I beseech you try, whether it be not necessary that you speedily repent of all these following sins: 1. What a shame is it for one that would be taken for a Religious man to be so Ignorant as you are, and no better know the truth of Christ, from the errors of Popery, than (it appeareth) you do? 2. What a sin for one so Ignorant to be so rash and bold in venturing to judge of that which he understandeth not? 3. What a sin is it for one so Ignorant to be so proud of his pretended knowledge, as to venture to defame his Teachers for contradicting him in his erroneous conceits? Have you studied these things as long and hard as I have done? or are you sure that you have done it more in partially; and that God hath illuminated you so much more, as your confidence would import? 4. What an unchristian crime is it, to make lies and carry them abroad of your Teachers, and then be forced to confess, that it was the failing of your memory as to what you heard? 5. What a sin is it to be a backbiter? Neither you, nor any one of your quality did ever come to my face either to know my meaning, or to hear what I had to say, nor to reprove my sin, or convince me of my error. 6. Is not unrighteousness a sin, in your judging and reports, as it is in public Judgements? Should not a man be heard before he be condemned? especially a Minister of Christ? 7. What a sin is it to receive false reports from others, and encourage backbites whom you should rebuke and frown away? 8. What a heinous sin is it thus to destroy the Hearers souls, and as those that have the Plague, to carry your infection from house to house, and kill mens Love, and breed in them false conceits and bitter injurious thoughts of others? 9. What a sin is it with such unthankfulness to requite Christs servants that spend their days, and strength, and estates in labouring for mens good?

P. Why have you not then somewhat else to do than hear me, and backbite me, and judge of things which you have not leisure to understand? Do we not still deal on hard terms with such men as you? that neither speaking nor writing can make them know our minds? Have all your party that revile me, done more each one against Popery than I have done? But if this be all that you have to call me to repentance for, I have a great deal more to say against my self; And now I will deal faithfully with you: ⟨p. 285⟩I beseech you try, whether it be not necessary that you speedily repent of all these following sins: 1. What a shame is it for one that would be taken for a Religious man to be so Ignorant as you are, and no better know the truth of Christ, from the errors of Popery, than (it appeareth) you do? 2. What a sin for one so Ignorant to be so rash and bold in venturing to judge of that which he understandeth not? 3. What a sin is it for one so Ignorant to be so proud of his pretended knowledge, as to venture to defame his Teachers for contradicting him in his er•oneous conceits? Have you studied these things as long and hard as I have done? or are you sure that you have done it more in partially; and that God hath illuminated you so much more, as your confidence would import? 4. What an unchristian crime is it, to make lyes and carry them abroad of your Teachers, and then be forced to confess, that it was the failing of your memory as to what you heard? 5. What a sin is it to be a backbiter? Neither you, nor any one of your quality did ever come to my face either to know my meaning, or to hear what I had to say, nor to reprove my sin, or convince me of my error. 6. Is not unrighteousness a sin, in your judging and reports, as it is in publick Judgements? Should not a man be heard before he be condemned? especially a Minister of Christ? 7. What a sin is it to receive false reports from others, and encourage backbites whom you should rebuke and frown away? 8. What a heinous sin is it thus to destroy the Hearers souls, and as those that have the Plague, to carry your infection from house to house, and kill mens Love, and breed in them false conceits and bitter injurious thoughts of others? 9. What a sin is it with such unthankfulness to requite Christs servants that spend their dayes, and strength, and estates in labouring for mens good?

S. Who is it that is censorious? you or I? It is sin with you to open your sin.

P. I desired you to open it: But see now how hard a work Repentance is, when in a Professor such sins as these will not be confessed.

S. Well, come to the cause it self: Is it I or you that comply with Papists?

P. I make that the business of this Conference with you: It is not you only, but some wiser men than you, that look so much at the evil of Popery, that they forget the evil of an unrighteous opposition, and of the other extreme: And they do as one that by labouring to cure another of a Dead Palsy, casteth himself into a Frenzy or a Fever: or like one that to avoid a Carrion that stinketh in the Ditch, doth run himself into the Ditch on the other side the way. Gods Truth must be vindicated only by Truth; and Wisdom is best justified of her own children by Wisdom. God hath no pleasure in fools, no• doth his Glory need our lye. There is a time when the Devil will seem to be against error and sin (and so against Popery): but it is in a way which shall promote it: which commonly is by ill-doing and over-doing. I tell you plainly, the Cause of Truth and Reformation gets nothing by some men that se•m most zealous for it. For an unstudied half-wise honest Minister or private man to believe false reports of the Papists, and to mis-state Controversies, and to rail on them on such suppositions, and to mix many errors of his own in his opposition, and to backbite those that know more of the matter, as symbolizing with the Papists, this is certainly serving the Devil, how honest soever the instruments in the main may be.

P. I make that the business of this Conference with you: It is not you only, but some wiser men than you, that look so much at the evil of Popery, that they forget the evil of an unrighteous opposition, and of the other extream: And they do as one that by labouring to cure another of a Dead Palsie, casteth himself into a Phrensie or a Feaver: or like one that to avoid a Carrion that stinketh in the Ditch, doth run himself into the Ditch on the other side the way. Gods Truth must be vindicated only by Truth; and Wisdom is best justified of her own children by Wisdom. God hath no pleasure in fools, no• doth his Glory need our lye. There is a time when the Devil will seem to be against error and sin (and so against Popery): but it is in a way which shall promote it: which commonly is by ill-doing and over-doing. I tell you plainly, the Cause of Truth and Reformation gets nothing by some men that se•m most zealous for it. For an unstudied half-wise honest Minister or private man to believe false reports of the Papists, and to mis-state Controversies, and to rail on them on such suppositions, and to mix many errors of his own in his opposition, and to backbite those that know more of the matter, as symbolizing with the Papists, this is certainly serving the Devil, how honest soever the instruments in the main may be.

S. I perceive that you have an aching tooth at the Protestant Divines as well as at me: Are you wiser than all they? or are you not warping to Grotianism which you have written against?

S. I perceive that you have an aking tooth at the Protestant Divines as well as at me: Are you wiser than all they? or are you not warping to Grotianism which you have written against?

P. Among the Protestant Divines there are well studied, knowing, solid men, that understand what they say, (such as Bishop Usher, Dr. Chaloner, Dr. Field, Dr. White, Chillingworth, Morton, Davenant, Andrews, and many such; and abroad, Camero, Dallaus, Blondel, Drelincourt, Amyra•dus, Placaeus, V•ssius, Junius, Martinius, Crocius, Bergius, Bucer, Musculus, Melanchthon and many others:) and there are ignorant, hot-headed, self-conceited men, that rave in extremes, (as Gallus, Ambsdorsius and their companions did against Georg. Major, for saying [Bona opera sunt necessaria ad salutem]). And it is no wonder, that the best Churches have many such; and if such are the forwardest to judge and cry down ⟨p. 287⟩all that are not as ignorant as they. And in our times, the World is more beholden to the fewness of buyers, and the wit of Booksellers refusing to Print them, than to the humility or modesty of such men, that the Shops do not abound with such furious Writings, •s Mr. Browns Antichristomachus, Mr. Danvers, Mr. Bagshaw, &c. and that Antichrist, Antichrist, is not made in Print the Universal Confutation of sober truth, as commonly as it is bawled out in words.

P. Among the Protestant Divines there are well studied, knowing, solid men, that understand what they say, (such as Bishop Usher, Dr. Chaloner, Dr. Field, Dr. White, Chillingworth, Morton, Davenant, Andrews, and many such; and abroad, Camero, Dallaus, Blondell, Drelincourt, Amyra•dus, Placaeus, V•ssius, Junius, Martinius, Crocius, Bergius, Bucer, Musculus, Melanchthon and many others:) and there are ignorant, hot-headed, self-conceited men, that rave in extreams, (as Gallus, Ambsdorsius and their companions did against Georg. Major, for saying [Bona opera sunt necessaria ad salutem]). And it is no wonder, that the best Churches have many such; and if such are the forwardest to judge and cry down ⟨p. 287⟩all that are not as ignorant as they. And in our times, the World is more beholden to the fewness of buyers, and the wit of Booksellers refusing to Print them, than to the humility or modesty of such men, that the Shops do not abound with such furious Writings, s Mr. Brownes Antichristomachus, Mr. Danvers, Mr. Bagshaw, &c. and that Antichrist, Antichrist, is not made in Print the Universal Consutation of sober truth, as commonly as it is bawled out in words.

S. Is it not safest to get far enough from Antichrist and Popery? Your study is to teach men how near they may come to sin without sin; and how to dance about the brink of Hell: For my part, I will be one of them that shall come out of Babylon, and partake not of her sins, nor touch the unclean thing, and that keep their garments undefiled; and not one that like you is grown Lukewarm by being over-fond of Unity and Peace: You will follow Grotius it's doubt at last.

P. Uncleanness must not be touched, nor sin partook of, nor lukewarm indifferency to sin entertained; we must go as far from sin as we can. But, poor deceived souls run into it, under the conceit of going far enough from it, and sometimes into greater than they avoid.

P. Uncleanness must not be touched, nor sin partaked of, nor lukewarm indifferency to sin entertained; we must go as far from sin as we can. But, poor deceived souls run into it, under the conceit of going far enough from it, and sometimes into greater than they avoid.

S. What sin have such Protestants run into in their opposition to Popery?

P. I will tell you some, I. In Doctrine: and II. In the consequent• and practice. I. It is more than one injudicious Protestant Divine that hath printed such unsound Opinions as these in opposition to Popery for want of judgement. 1. While they plead against the Romish false Tradition, they have weakened faith, by denying that necessary use of Historical Tradition of Scripture which Christianity doth suppose: (As others have denied the necessary use of Reason unto faith.) 2. They have wronged the Church by undervaluing the Tradition of the Creed and the Essentials of Christianity, by many means besides the Scriptures. 3. They have much wronged the Protestant Cause by denying the perpetual Visibility of the Church, and almost given it away, as I have showed against Johnson. 4. And their denial of its Universality, and confining it long to the Waldenses and such others, is an exceeding injury to the Church and Truth. 5. And so is some mens over-doing as for the Scripture, who teach men that they can be no surer of Christianity, (as delivered many years in Baptism before any of the New Testament was written,) than they are that there is no one error in all the Bible, by the carelessness of the Scribes and Printers, nor any humane frailty in the phrase. 6. And also their feigning the Scripture perfection to consist, in its being a particular determiner of all those circumstances of which it is only a general rule. 7. And those that make every form of prayer, or Ceremony to be Antichristian. 8. And those that make Justifying faith to be a certainty or full persuasion that we are elected and pardoned and shall be saved. 9. And those that say, that To believe that I am justified is to believe Gods Word, or •ides divina; either (as most say) because one of the premises is in Scripture, or (as excellent Chamier saith) because the Witness of the Spirit is Gods Word. ⟨p. 288⟩10. And those that say All that have true faith, are sure they have such: (as Keckerman and too many others.) 11. Those that deny Christ to have made any Law. 12. And those also that assert Imputation of Christs Righteousness in that sense which I have proved to subvert the Gospel. 13. And those that deny Faith it self to be Imputed for righteousness. 14. And those that deny that there is any personal Evangelical Righteousness in our selves that is any way necessary to our Justification. 15.

P. I will tell you some, I. In Doctrine: and II. In the consequent and practice. I. It is more than one injudicious Protestant Divine that hath printed such unfound Opinions as these in opposition to Popery for want of judgement. 1. While they plead against the Romish false Tradition, they have weakned faith, by denying that necessary use of Historical Tradition of Scripture which Christianity doth suppose: (As others have denyed the necessary use of Reason unto faith.) 2. They have wronged the Church by undervaluing the Tradition of the Creed and the Essentials of Christianity, by many means besides the Scriptures. 3. They have much wronged the Protestant Cause by denying the perpetual Visibility of the Church, and almost given it away, as I have shewed against Johnson. 4. And their dnyal of its Universality, and confining it long to the Waldenses and such others, is an exceeding injury to the Church and Truth. 5. And so is some mens over-doing as for the Scripture, who teach men that they can be no surer of Christianity, (as delivered many years in Baptism before any of the New Testament was written,) than they are that there is no one error in all the Bible, by the carelesness of the Scribes and Printers, nor any humane frailty in the phrase. 6. And also their feigning the Scripture perfection to consist, in its being a particular determiner of all those circumstances of which it is only a general rule. 7. And those that make every form of prayer, or Ceremony to be Antichristian. 8. And those that make Justifying faith to be a certainty or full perswasion that we are elected and pardoned and shall be saved. 9. And those that say, that To believe that I am justified is to believe Gods Word, or ides divina; either (as most say) because one of the premises is in Scripture, or (as excellent Chamier saith) because the Witness of the Spirit is Gods Word.

And those that lay all the stress of Faiths Justifying us on the notion of Instrumental efficiency. 16. And those that say we are Justified by no act of faith, but its receiving Christs Righteousness; and all other acts of faith are the Wor•s by which none is justified. 17. And those that say, that Evangelical obedience is not meritorious as it signifieth only Rewardable in point of Paternal Evangelical Governing Justice, and as all the ancient Fathers used that word; because we merit not by Commutation. 18. And those that say, that man hath no free-will (at all, of any sort) to spiritual good. 19. And those that say, that Christ was in Gods reputation, the greatest sinner, or wicked man, Adulterer, Murderer, hater of God in all the world. 20. And those that say, that he suffered in soul Pain altogether of the same kind with those that the damned suffer in H••. 21. And those that in opposition to the Popish Government, Confession, Austerities, and several acts of Worship, do run into the contrary extreme, against due Government, Confession, Austerities, &c. And those that from dark uncertainty or à minus noti• do gather many conclusions against known truth. I pass by such as the Antinomians, who as I have proved▪ subvert the Gospel it self, by running into the contrary extreme from Pope•••.

And those that lay all the stress of Faiths Justifying us on the notion of Instrumental efficiency. 16. And those that say we are Justified by no act of faith, but its receiving Christs Righteousness; and all other acts of faith are the Wor•s by which none is justified. 17. And those that say, that Evangelical obedience is not meritorious as it signifieth only Rewardable in point of Paternal Evangelical Governing Justice, and as all the antient Fathers used that word; because we merit not by Commutation. 18. And those that say, that man hath no free-will (at all, of any sort) to spiritual good. 19. And those that say, that Christ was in Gods reputation, the greatest sinner, or wicked man, Adulterer, Murderer, hater of God in all the world. 20. And those that say, that he suffered in soul Pain altogether of the same kind with those that the damned suffer in H••. 21. And those that in opposition to the Popish Government, Confession, Austerities, and several acts of Worship, do run into the conrary extream, against due Government, Confession, Austerities, &c. And those that from dark uncertainty or à minus noti do gather many conclusions against known truth. I pass by such as the Antinomians, who as I have proved subvet the Gospel it self, by running into the contrary extream from Pope.

S. You are as •ad as Parker, or the Debate-maker, that th•s l•y s••ndal on the Reformers themselves. If these were their faults, you •••• cover them, and not open them. This had been enough for • Romish R•bshakeh.