P. I desired you to open it: But see now how hard a work Repentance is, when in a Professor such sins as these will not be confessed.

S. Well, come to the cause it self: Is it I or you that comply with Papists?

P. I make that the business of this Conference with you: It is not you only, but some wiser men than you, that look so much at the evil of Popery, that they forget the evil of an unrighteous opposition, and of the other extreme: And they do as one that by labouring to cure another of a Dead Palsy, casteth himself into a Frenzy or a Fever: or like one that to avoid a Carrion that stinketh in the Ditch, doth run himself into the Ditch on the other side the way. Gods Truth must be vindicated only by Truth; and Wisdom is best justified of her own children by Wisdom. God hath no pleasure in fools, no• doth his Glory need our lye. There is a time when the Devil will seem to be against error and sin (and so against Popery): but it is in a way which shall promote it: which commonly is by ill-doing and over-doing. I tell you plainly, the Cause of Truth and Reformation gets nothing by some men that se•m most zealous for it. For an unstudied half-wise honest Minister or private man to believe false reports of the Papists, and to mis-state Controversies, and to rail on them on such suppositions, and to mix many errors of his own in his opposition, and to backbite those that know more of the matter, as symbolizing with the Papists, this is certainly serving the Devil, how honest soever the instruments in the main may be.

P. I make that the business of this Conference with you: It is not you only, but some wiser men than you, that look so much at the evil of Popery, that they forget the evil of an unrighteous opposition, and of the other extream: And they do as one that by labouring to cure another of a Dead Palsie, casteth himself into a Phrensie or a Feaver: or like one that to avoid a Carrion that stinketh in the Ditch, doth run himself into the Ditch on the other side the way. Gods Truth must be vindicated only by Truth; and Wisdom is best justified of her own children by Wisdom. God hath no pleasure in fools, no• doth his Glory need our lye. There is a time when the Devil will seem to be against error and sin (and so against Popery): but it is in a way which shall promote it: which commonly is by ill-doing and over-doing. I tell you plainly, the Cause of Truth and Reformation gets nothing by some men that se•m most zealous for it. For an unstudied half-wise honest Minister or private man to believe false reports of the Papists, and to mis-state Controversies, and to rail on them on such suppositions, and to mix many errors of his own in his opposition, and to backbite those that know more of the matter, as symbolizing with the Papists, this is certainly serving the Devil, how honest soever the instruments in the main may be.

P. Among the Protestant Divines there are well studied, knowing, solid men, that understand what they say, (such as Bishop Usher, Dr. Chaloner, Dr. Field, Dr. White, Chillingworth, Morton, Davenant, Andrews, and many such; and abroad, Camero, Dallaus, Blondel, Drelincourt, Amyra•dus, Placaeus, V•ssius, Junius, Martinius, Crocius, Bergius, Bucer, Musculus, Melanchthon and many others:) and there are ignorant, hot-headed, self-conceited men, that rave in extremes, (as Gallus, Ambsdorsius and their companions did against Georg. Major, for saying [Bona opera sunt necessaria ad salutem]). And it is no wonder, that the best Churches have many such; and if such are the forwardest to judge and cry down ⟨p. 287⟩all that are not as ignorant as they. And in our times, the World is more beholden to the fewness of buyers, and the wit of Booksellers refusing to Print them, than to the humility or modesty of such men, that the Shops do not abound with such furious Writings, •s Mr. Browns Antichristomachus, Mr. Danvers, Mr. Bagshaw, &c. and that Antichrist, Antichrist, is not made in Print the Universal Confutation of sober truth, as commonly as it is bawled out in words.

P. Among the Protestant Divines there are well studied, knowing, solid men, that understand what they say, (such as Bishop Usher, Dr. Chaloner, Dr. Field, Dr. White, Chillingworth, Morton, Davenant, Andrews, and many such; and abroad, Camero, Dallaus, Blondell, Drelincourt, Amyra•dus, Placaeus, V•ssius, Junius, Martinius, Crocius, Bergius, Bucer, Musculus, Melanchthon and many others:) and there are ignorant, hot-headed, self-conceited men, that rave in extreams, (as Gallus, Ambsdorsius and their companions did against Georg. Major, for saying [Bona opera sunt necessaria ad salutem]). And it is no wonder, that the best Churches have many such; and if such are the forwardest to judge and cry down ⟨p. 287⟩all that are not as ignorant as they. And in our times, the World is more beholden to the fewness of buyers, and the wit of Booksellers refusing to Print them, than to the humility or modesty of such men, that the Shops do not abound with such furious Writings, s Mr. Brownes Antichristomachus, Mr. Danvers, Mr. Bagshaw, &c. and that Antichrist, Antichrist, is not made in Print the Universal Consutation of sober truth, as commonly as it is bawled out in words.

S. Is it not safest to get far enough from Antichrist and Popery? Your study is to teach men how near they may come to sin without sin; and how to dance about the brink of Hell: For my part, I will be one of them that shall come out of Babylon, and partake not of her sins, nor touch the unclean thing, and that keep their garments undefiled; and not one that like you is grown Lukewarm by being over-fond of Unity and Peace: You will follow Grotius it's doubt at last.

P. Uncleanness must not be touched, nor sin partook of, nor lukewarm indifferency to sin entertained; we must go as far from sin as we can. But, poor deceived souls run into it, under the conceit of going far enough from it, and sometimes into greater than they avoid.

P. Uncleanness must not be touched, nor sin partaked of, nor lukewarm indifferency to sin entertained; we must go as far from sin as we can. But, poor deceived souls run into it, under the conceit of going far enough from it, and sometimes into greater than they avoid.

S. What sin have such Protestants run into in their opposition to Popery?

P. I will tell you some, I. In Doctrine: and II. In the consequent• and practice. I. It is more than one injudicious Protestant Divine that hath printed such unsound Opinions as these in opposition to Popery for want of judgement. 1. While they plead against the Romish false Tradition, they have weakened faith, by denying that necessary use of Historical Tradition of Scripture which Christianity doth suppose: (As others have denied the necessary use of Reason unto faith.) 2. They have wronged the Church by undervaluing the Tradition of the Creed and the Essentials of Christianity, by many means besides the Scriptures. 3. They have much wronged the Protestant Cause by denying the perpetual Visibility of the Church, and almost given it away, as I have showed against Johnson. 4. And their denial of its Universality, and confining it long to the Waldenses and such others, is an exceeding injury to the Church and Truth. 5. And so is some mens over-doing as for the Scripture, who teach men that they can be no surer of Christianity, (as delivered many years in Baptism before any of the New Testament was written,) than they are that there is no one error in all the Bible, by the carelessness of the Scribes and Printers, nor any humane frailty in the phrase. 6. And also their feigning the Scripture perfection to consist, in its being a particular determiner of all those circumstances of which it is only a general rule. 7. And those that make every form of prayer, or Ceremony to be Antichristian. 8. And those that make Justifying faith to be a certainty or full persuasion that we are elected and pardoned and shall be saved. 9. And those that say, that To believe that I am justified is to believe Gods Word, or •ides divina; either (as most say) because one of the premises is in Scripture, or (as excellent Chamier saith) because the Witness of the Spirit is Gods Word. ⟨p. 288⟩10. And those that say All that have true faith, are sure they have such: (as Keckerman and too many others.) 11. Those that deny Christ to have made any Law. 12. And those also that assert Imputation of Christs Righteousness in that sense which I have proved to subvert the Gospel. 13. And those that deny Faith it self to be Imputed for righteousness. 14. And those that deny that there is any personal Evangelical Righteousness in our selves that is any way necessary to our Justification. 15.

P. I will tell you some, I. In Doctrine: and II. In the consequent and practice. I. It is more than one injudicious Protestant Divine that hath printed such unfound Opinions as these in opposition to Popery for want of judgement. 1. While they plead against the Romish false Tradition, they have weakned faith, by denying that necessary use of Historical Tradition of Scripture which Christianity doth suppose: (As others have denyed the necessary use of Reason unto faith.) 2. They have wronged the Church by undervaluing the Tradition of the Creed and the Essentials of Christianity, by many means besides the Scriptures. 3. They have much wronged the Protestant Cause by denying the perpetual Visibility of the Church, and almost given it away, as I have shewed against Johnson. 4. And their dnyal of its Universality, and confining it long to the Waldenses and such others, is an exceeding injury to the Church and Truth. 5. And so is some mens over-doing as for the Scripture, who teach men that they can be no surer of Christianity, (as delivered many years in Baptism before any of the New Testament was written,) than they are that there is no one error in all the Bible, by the carelesness of the Scribes and Printers, nor any humane frailty in the phrase. 6. And also their feigning the Scripture perfection to consist, in its being a particular determiner of all those circumstances of which it is only a general rule. 7. And those that make every form of prayer, or Ceremony to be Antichristian. 8. And those that make Justifying faith to be a certainty or full perswasion that we are elected and pardoned and shall be saved. 9. And those that say, that To believe that I am justified is to believe Gods Word, or ides divina; either (as most say) because one of the premises is in Scripture, or (as excellent Chamier saith) because the Witness of the Spirit is Gods Word.

And those that lay all the stress of Faiths Justifying us on the notion of Instrumental efficiency. 16. And those that say we are Justified by no act of faith, but its receiving Christs Righteousness; and all other acts of faith are the Wor•s by which none is justified. 17. And those that say, that Evangelical obedience is not meritorious as it signifieth only Rewardable in point of Paternal Evangelical Governing Justice, and as all the ancient Fathers used that word; because we merit not by Commutation. 18. And those that say, that man hath no free-will (at all, of any sort) to spiritual good. 19. And those that say, that Christ was in Gods reputation, the greatest sinner, or wicked man, Adulterer, Murderer, hater of God in all the world. 20. And those that say, that he suffered in soul Pain altogether of the same kind with those that the damned suffer in H••. 21. And those that in opposition to the Popish Government, Confession, Austerities, and several acts of Worship, do run into the contrary extreme, against due Government, Confession, Austerities, &c. And those that from dark uncertainty or à minus noti• do gather many conclusions against known truth. I pass by such as the Antinomians, who as I have proved▪ subvert the Gospel it self, by running into the contrary extreme from Pope•••.

And those that lay all the stress of Faiths Justifying us on the notion of Instrumental efficiency. 16. And those that say we are Justified by no act of faith, but its receiving Christs Righteousness; and all other acts of faith are the Wor•s by which none is justified. 17. And those that say, that Evangelical obedience is not meritorious as it signifieth only Rewardable in point of Paternal Evangelical Governing Justice, and as all the antient Fathers used that word; because we merit not by Commutation. 18. And those that say, that man hath no free-will (at all, of any sort) to spiritual good. 19. And those that say, that Christ was in Gods reputation, the greatest sinner, or wicked man, Adulterer, Murderer, hater of God in all the world. 20. And those that say, that he suffered in soul Pain altogether of the same kind with those that the damned suffer in H••. 21. And those that in opposition to the Popish Government, Confession, Austerities, and several acts of Worship, do run into the conrary extream, against due Government, Confession, Austerities, &c. And those that from dark uncertainty or à minus noti do gather many conclusions against known truth. I pass by such as the Antinomians, who as I have proved subvet the Gospel it self, by running into the contrary extream from Pope.

S. You are as •ad as Parker, or the Debate-maker, that th•s l•y s••ndal on the Reformers themselves. If these were their faults, you •••• cover them, and not open them. This had been enough for • Romish R•bshakeh.

P. You know not what it is that you say. This is to a•ho•• •••• tance, and to prefer the honour of man before the honour of God: yea, to let the shame be cast on Gods Word and Religion, lest the error of •••• be shamed. But all men are liars (that is, fallible) and God is •••• ▪ He that confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall have mercy, but he that hideth it, shall not prosper. Are there not with you, even with you also (saith the Prophet) sins against the Lord our God? Why hath God recorded in Scripture the faults of so many of his servants, and foamed them to such open Confessions? Did Paul wrong Peter and ••••, Gal. •? or the Ministry when he said, All seek their own thing•, and no•e the things of Jesus Christ? or did the Evangelists wrong all •he Disciples, by saying, that They all forsook him and fled? or James all C•• stians, saying In many things we offend •ll? I think the Prou• Impenitence of many Professors, that will not confess sin, nor endure to be •• led to it, lest Religion be dishonoured, is that great dishonour to Religion which God hath been long punishing us for. When such evils have •••• held and done as our age hath known, either it must be said that they are not evil, or that they are▪ If we deny it, and say they are God •••• and m•ns duty, we feign God, and Scripture, and Religion to be for all that evil, (which is to blaspheme). If we say It is evil, we must sa•• that ⟨p. 289⟩

S. I think you would fain persuade us, that Protestants are as bad as Papists, and persuade us into the Roman Tents.

S. I think you would fain perswade us, that Protestants are as bad as Papists, and perswade us into the Roman Tents.

P. That is but your peevish inference: But little do you know how much of Popery it self you have, while you think that you hate it more than I.

P. That is but your pievish inference: But little do you know how much of Popery it self you have, while you think that you hate it more than I.

S. You would make me believe any thing, if you make me think that I have more of Popery than you.

P. 1. Do not you agree with them in confining the Catholic Church to one Sect or Party? only They to their Sect, and You to yours. 2. Do you not agree with them in your vehement condemnation of dissenters? only they excommunicate and burn them, and you deny them your communion and reproach them: But their charity extendeth much further than yours, and you condemn more dissenters than they do. 3. Do you not agree with them in being superstitious, by a great deal of self-made Duty and Sin? only theirs and yours are not in the same things: They say, Touch not, taste not, handle not some things, and you other things, while you say that God hath forbidden forms of prayer, and many lawful circumstances of Worship, and other such like. And I now entreat you and all the servants of Christ soberly to consider, whether a wild injudicious calling sound Doctrine and Practices Antichristian, and using that name as a bugbear for want of solid argument, and an injudicious running from Papists into the contrary errors and extremes, hath not brought on many the guilt and misery which in all the following particulars I shall open to you. 1. Such men have corrupted the Gospel of Christ, by bringing in many doctrinal errors, and opening a door to the heretical to bring in more. Almost all the Libertine Antinomian errors, have come in by an injudicious opposition to Popery, as if they were the Vindication of Election, Free Grace, Christs Righteousness, Justification by faith, Perseverance, against mans Works and Merits: And it is not to be denied, that the said Libertine Doctrines do more contradict the Doctrine of the Gospel, even Christianity it self, than the Doctrine of the Papists about the same subjects do. I know this to be true, who ever is offended at it: Aquinas, Scotus, Gabriel, Bellarmine, Pererids, Tolet, yea, Vasquez, Suarez and Molina are not near so erroneous about Justification, Grace, Faith and good works, as Richardson, Randal, Simpson, Town, Crispe, Saltmarsh, and many such others are. Yet how many Religious people have I known, that have gloried in these errors as the sweet discoveries of free grace! 2. Such erroneous extremes in opposition to Popery have greatly dishonoured the Reformers, and Reformation. When it cannot be denied but such and such errors are found among them, it maketh all the Reformation suspected:

P. 1. Do not you agree with them in consining the Catholick Church to one Sect or Party? only They to their Sect, and You to yours. 2. Do you not agree with them in your vehement condemnation of dissenters? only they excommunicate and burn them, and you deny them your communion and reproach them: But their charity extendeth much further than yours, and you condemn more dissenters than they do. 3. Do you not agree with them in being superstitious, by a great deal of self-made Duty and Sin? only theirs and yours are not in the same things: They say, Touch not, taste not, handle not some things, and you other things, while you say that God hath forbidden forms of prayer, and many lawful circumstances of Worship, and other such like. And I now intreat you and all the servants of Christ soberly to consider, whether a wild injudicious calling sound Doctrine and Practices Antichristian, and using that name as a bugbear for want of solid argument, and an injudicious running from Papists into the contrary errors and extreams, hath not brought on many the guilt and misery which in all the following particulars I shall open to you. 1. Such men have corrupted the Gospel of Christ, by bringing in many doctrinal errors, and opening a door to the heretical to bring in more. Almost all the Libertine Antinomian errors, have come in by an injudicious opposition to Popery, as if they were the Vindication of Election, Free Grace, Christs Righteousness, Justification by faith, Perseverance, against mans Works and Merits: And it is not to be denyed, that the said Libertine Doctrines do more contradict the Doctrine of the Gospel, even Christianity it self, than the Doctrine of the Papists about the same subjects do. I know this to be true, who ever is offended at it: Aquinas, Scotus, Gabriel, Bellarmine, Pererids, Tolet, yea, Vasquez, Suarez and Molina are not near so erroneous about Justification, Grace, Faith and good works, as Richardson, Randal, Sympson, Towne, Crispe, Saltmarsh, and many such others are. Yet how many Religious people have I known, that have gloried in these errors as the sweet discoveries of free grace! 2. Such erroneous extreams in opposition to Popery have greatly dishonoured the Reformers, and Reformation. When it cannot be denyed but such and such errors are found among them, it maketh all the Reformation suspected: