Gildas Salvianus: The Reformed Pastor

3. And I would know whether on the grounds of this objection before mentioned all Discipline should not be cast out of the Church, at least ordinarily; And so is not this against the Thing it self, rather then against the present season of it? For this reason is not drawn from any thing proper to our times, but common to all times and places. Wicked men will always storm against the means of their public shame; and the use of Church censures is purposely to shame them, that sin may be shamed, and disowned by the Church. What age can you name since the days of the Apostles wherein you would have executed the Discipline that you now refuse, if you go on these grounds, supposing that it had not been by Magisterial compulsion? If therefore it be Discipline it self that hath such intolerable inconveniences, why have you so prayed for it, and perhaps fought for it, and disputed for it as you have done? What must all dissenters bear your frowns and censures, and all for a work which your selves judge intolerable, and dare not touch with one of your fingers? When do you look to see all these difficulties over, that you may set upon that which you now avoid? Will it be in your days? Or will you wait till you are dead, and leave it as a part of your Epitaph to posterity, that you so deeply engaged and contended for that which you so abhorred to the death, that you would never be brought to the practice of it! And doth ⟨p. 222⟩not this Objection of yours plainly give up your cause to the Separatists? and even tell them that your contending is not for your way of Discipline; but that there may be none, because it will do more harm then good. Certainly if this be true, it would have been better to speak it out at first, before all our wars, and tears, and prayers, and contentions, then now in the conclusion to tell the world, that we did all this but for a name or word, and that the thing is so far from being worth our cost, that it is not tolerable, much less desirable.

3. And I would know whether on the grounds of this objection before mentioned all Discipline should not be cast out of the Church, atleast ordinarily; And so is not this against the Thing it self, rather then against the present season of it? For this reason is not drawn from any thing proper to our times, but common to all times and places. Wicked men will alwaies storm against the means of their publike shame; and the use of Church censures is purposely to shame them, that sin may be shamed, and disowned by the Church. What age can you name since the daies of the Apostles wherein you would have executed the Discipline that you now refuse, if you go on these grounds, supposing that it had not been by Magisterial compulsion? If therefore it be Discipline it self that hath such intolerable inconveniences, why have you so prayed for it, and perhaps fought for it, and disputed for it as you have done? What must all dissenters bear your frowns and censures, and all for a work which your selves judge intolerable, and dare not touch with one of your fingers? When do you look to see all these difficulties over, that you may set upon that which you now avoid? Will it be in your daies? Or will you wait till you are dead, and leave it as a part of your Epitaph to posterity, that you so deeply engaged and contended for that which you so abhord to the death, that you would never be brought to the practice of it! And doth