Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
5. They object; If B lievers may not ordain, it shall follow either that Officers may minister without ordination, against the Scripture, 1 Tim. 4. 14. Heb. 6. 1. or, by virtue of ordination received in another Church, they might minister. Now if this be, we establish an i•d•l•ble character of Papists, but if being called to another Church, there be need of a new Election, then there is need of a new ordination, for that dependeth upon this; Ergo, then ordination cometh by succession, but we see not what authority ordinary officers have to ordain Pastors to a Church, whereof themselves are not members.
5. They object; If B lievers may not ordaine, it shall follow either that Officers may minister without ordination, against the Sripture, 1 Tim. 4. 14. Heb. 6. 1. or, by vertue of ordination received in another Church, they might minister. Now if this be, we establish an i•d•l•ble character of Papists, but if being called to another Church, there be need of a new Election, then there is need of a new ordination, for that dependeth upon this; Ergo, then ordination commeth by succession, but we see not what authority ordinary officers have to ordaine Pastors to a Church, whereof themselves are not members.
. No more then that one not baptized for want of a Pastor should yet believe in Christ. 2. We see no indelible Character, because a Pastor is always a called Pastor; if the man commit scandals, the Church may call all his character from him, and turn him into a mere private man. But to renew ordination, when election to another congregation is renewed, is to speak ignorantly of ordination and election: for election maketh not the
⟨p. 200⟩
man a Minister, nor giveth him a calling, but appropriateth his Ministry to such a flock. But they speak of Election to a charge as of marriage, which is not well understood, for by marriage a man is both made a Husband, and a Husband to this Wife only: by election a Pastor is not made a Pastor, by ordination he is made a Pastor of the Church Universal, though he be not made an Universal Pastor. 3. The ordination by succession of Pastors, where Pastors are, you hold your selves. But a popish personal succession, we disclaim, as well as you do:
Answ. 1. That ordination be wanting, where Ministers are wanting, is extraordinary, and not against, 1 Tim. 4 14. No more then that one not baptized for want of a Pastor should yet believe in Christ. 2. We see no indeleble Character, because a Pastor is alwayes a called Pastor; if the man commit scandals, the Church may call all his character from him, and turne him into a meere private man. But to renew ordination, when election to another congregation is renewed, is to speake ignorantly of ordination and election: for election maketh not the ⟨p. 200⟩man a Minister, nor giveth him a calling, but appropriateth his Ministery to such a flock. But they speake of Election to a charge as of marriage, which is not well understood, for by marriage a man is both made a Husband, and a Husband to this Wife onely: by election a Pastor is not made a Pastor, by ordination he is made a Pastor of the Church Universall, though hee be not made an Universall Pastor. 3. The ordination by succession of Pastors, where Pastors are, you hold your selves. But a popish personall succession, wee disclaime, as well as you doe:
The 5. Objection I omit to another time. The 6. *Objection is; If there be a magistrate before, the succeeding magistrate receiveth keys or (word from the preceding magistrate: but if there be none, he receiveth them from the people. So here.
Answ. Christs calling is not ordered according to the pattern of civill governments, his kingdom is not of this world. People may both ordain and elect to a civill office, without consent of the preceding Magistrate. But we read of no officers ordained by the people, only in an ordinary way.
Answ. Christs calling is not ordered according to the patterne of civill governments, his kingdome is not of this world. People may both ordaine and elect to a civill office, without consent of the preceding Magistrate. But we reade of no officers ordained by the people, only in an ordinary way.
Ordination (say they) is not of such eminency as is conceived, it is not mentioned in the Apostles first commission, Mat. 28, 19. Mark 16. 15, 16. The Apostles accounted preaching and praying principal. So aPerkins bWillet cWhittaker, dAmesius.
Ordination (say they) is not of such eminency as is conceived, it is not mentioned in the Apostles first commission, Mat. 28, 19. Marke 16. 15, 16. The Apostles accompted preaching and praying principall. So aPerkins bVVillet cVVhittaker, dAmesius.
aPerkins. on Gala.
bWillet synop. con. 1. 4, 3. p. 371.
cWhittaker de eccles. q. 5. c. 6.
dAmes. Bel. l•m. enerv. de cler. l. 3. de ordin. c. 2.
Answ. So answer Arminians eand so doth the Socinian fTheol. Nicolaides, and gSocinus; and so in your words saith ⟨p. 201⟩hto reform, but this is not to take away the necessity of ordination, by Pastors.
Answ. So answer Arminians eand so doth the Socinian fTheol. Nicolaides, and gSocinus; and so in your words saith ⟨p. 201⟩hto reforme, but this is not to take away the necessity of ordination, by Pastors.
eApol. Remostran. c. 21. •. 227 missio seu ordinatio Episcoporum non est •am necessaria in ecclesia constitute.Apol. Remostran. c. 21. •. 227 missio seu ordinatio Episcoporum non est •am necessaria in ecclesia constitut•.
fNicola•d. in d•s•tract. de miss. min. c. 1. •. 144. In c••ombus Apostolorum, quibus describuntur om•••. quae pertinent ad constituend•• Episcopos & Doctores, quondam nulla sit mentio missionis (ordinatio is;) h•nc concludinus eam ad ips• muneris Episcopalis substantiā & naturam nul•o modo requi•i.Nicola•d. in d•s•tract. de miss. min. c. 1. •. 144. In c••ombus Apostolorum, quibus describuntur om•••. quae pertinent ad constituend•• Episcopos & Doctores, quon•am nulla sit mentio missionis (ordinatio is;) h•nc concludinus eam ad ips• muneris Episcopalis substantiā & naturam nul•o modo requi•i.
hOstorodius in de sens. de Eccles. & miss. Ministr•. adversus M•edzeboz. c. 1. f. 10•. &. c. 2. falsum est Apostolos semper requisivisse in Ministro ordinationem.
I come now to answer, what Mr. Robinson doth add, to what is said for the ordination of Pastors by Pastors, and not by single Believers, Mr. Robinson isaith, the question is, whether succession of Pastors be of such absolute necessity, as that no Minister can in any case be made but by a Minister, and if they must be ordained by popes, and prelates.
I come now to answer, what Mr. Robinson doth adde, to what is said for the ordination of Pastors by Pastors, and not by single Believers, Mr. Robinson isaith, the question is, whether succession of Pastors be of such absolute necessity, as that no Minister can in any case be made but by a Minister, and if they must be ordained by popes, and prelates.
Answ. But we say that this is no question at all, we affirm ordination of pastors not to be of that absolute necessity, but in an exigence of necessity the election of the people, and some other thing, may supply the want of it. Nor do we think a calling from papists no calling, as we shall hear: before I proceed this must be discussed.
Answ. But we say that this is no question at all, wee affirme ordination of pastors not to be of that absolute necessity, but in an exigence of necessity the election of the people, and some other thing, may supply the want of it. Nor doe wee thinke a calling from papists no calling, as we shall heare: before I proceed this must be discussed.
•. Election we are to consider, to whom it belongeth of right. 2. The force and influence thereof to make a Church-officer; but let these considerations first be pondered.
1. Consid. Election is made either by a people gracious and able to discern, or by a people rude and ignorant; the former is valid, Jure & facto, the latter not so.
1. Consid. Election is made either by a people gratious and able to discerne, or by a people rude and ignorant; the former is valid, Jure & facto, the latter not so.
2. Consid. Election is either comparative or absolute; when Election is comparative, though people have nothing possibly positively to say against a person, yet though they reject him and choose one si•ter, the Election is reasonable.
3. Consid. Peoples Election is not of a person to the Ministry as a Wikis choice of a man to be a Husband, but of a Minister; Election doth not make a Minister.
3. Consid. Peoples Election is not of a person to the Ministery as a VVi•is choyse of a man to be a Husband, but of a Minister; Election doth not make a Minister.
4. Consid. Election is either to be looked to, quoad jus, or, quoad f•ctum. A people not yet called externally, cannot elect their own Minister, a Synod or others of charity (as Reverend Junius asaith) may choose for them, though, de facto, and in respect of their case, they cannot choose their own Pastor.
4. Consid. Election is either to be looked to, quoad jus, or, quoad f•ctum. A people not yet called externally, cannot elect their own Minister, a Synod or others of charity (as Reverend Junius asaith) may chuse for them, though, de facto, and in respect of their case, they cannot chuse their own Pastor.
aJunius contra Bellarm. de Cl•r. l. 1. c. 7.Iunius contra Bellarm. de Cl•r. l. 1. c. 7.
1. Conclus. The people have Gods right to choose, for so the bword prescribeth. So cTertullian, dEyprian. Non blandiatur sibi plebs, quasi immunis à contagione delicti esse possit, cum sacerdote peccatore communicans & ad injustum ⟨p. 202⟩atque illicitum propositi Episcopatum consensum s•um accommodans, &c. and dnefas sine consensu po•uli: and this Cyprian writ an hundred years before the Nicene Council. Bellarmine lo•ed hi• face eto say this custom began in the time of the Nicene Council. It was not a consuetude fQu•d ipsum (inquit Cyprianus) videmus de Divina autoritate descender•; gIgnatius, It is your part, as the Church of God to choose the Pastor; [Greek or Hebrew]. So speaketh he to the people of Philadelphia; and so speaketh hAmbrose to Valentinian, Omitto, quia jam ipse populus judicavit, iOrigen: Requiritur ergo in ordinando sacerd te praesentia populi, &c. and his reason is Scripture, a pastor must be of good report. And kChrysostom saith, all elections of pastors are null, [Greek or Hebrew], without the conscience of the people. And the Council of Nice did write this to the Bishops of Alexandria as lTheodoret saith, and the fi•st general council of Constantinople wrote the same to Daemasus, Ambrose, and others, as mTheodoret also showeth nThe council of Africa is cited by Cyprian producing Scripture, as Acts 1. 23. Acts 6. to prove that the people had their consent in elections; and othe council of Chalcedon pthe council of Ancyron, and qof Laodicea; and the Popes own rCanons say this, sso Nicolaus the Pope in his Decrees saith, the Clergy and people did choose the pope, Reliquus clerus & populus Romanus ad consensum nova electionis pontificis à Cardinalibus factae accedant. So tGelasius the pope writeth to Philippus and Cernuti•• Bishops, so Stephanus ad Romanum uarchiepiscopum Rav•• natensem, is cited in the gloss to that purpose; in xthe Epistles of Ivo Bishop of Chartres, we being called, by the will of God, the Clergy and people of such a City, and this Pope Ur••• practised upon Ivo.
1. Conclus. The people have Gods right to chuse, for so the bword prescribeth. So cTertullian, dEyprian. Non blandiatur sibi plebs, quasi immunis à contagione delicti esse possit, cum sacerdote peccatore communicans & ad injustum ⟨p. 202⟩atque illicitum propositi Episcopatum consensum s•um accommodans, &c. and dnefas sine consensu po•uli: and this Cyprian writ an hundreth yeeres before the Nicen Councell. Bellarmine lo•ed hi• face eto say this custome began in the time of the Nicon Councell. It was not a consuetude fQu•d ipsum (inquit Cyprianus) videmus de Divina autoritate descender•; gIgnatius, It is your part, as the Church of God to chuse the Pastor; 〈non-Latin alphabet〉. So speaketh hee to the people of Philadelphia; and so speaketh hAmbrose to Valentinian, Omitto, quia jam ipse populus judicavit, iOrigen: Requiritur ergo in ordinando sacerd te praesentia populi, &c. and his reason is Scripture, a pastor must be of good report. And kChrysostome saith, all elections of pastors are null, 〈non-Latin alphabet〉, without the conscience of the people. And the Councell of Nice did write this to the Bishops of Alexandria as
2. Conclus. But elections in the ancient Church were not by one single congregation, but by the Bishops of diverse other Churches. In the ycouncil of Sardis, Si unum tantùm in provincia contigerit remanere Episcopum, suporstes Episcopus con•• care debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae. & cum iis orainare sibi comprovincales Episcopos; quod si id facero negligat, populus convocare debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae & peter• sibi rectorem. ⟨p. 203⟩In the zcouncil of Toledo it was ordained, that the Bishop of Toledo might choose in quibustibee Pr•vinciis, in any provinces about Bishops to be his successors, salvo privilegio unius•njusqu• provinciae. Cardinals are forbidden to usurp to choose a Bishop, if the see vace in the time of a general Council, this was enacted in the council of *Constance and aBasil. The Abbot of Panormo saith, it was obtained of the council of Carthage bto avoid dissension, that they should transfer their right to the Cardinals. So cAlmain and dGerson prove the equity of this by good reasons. That wicked council of Trent, labouring to exalt the popes chair, did abrogate these good acts to the offence of many, as the Author eof the review of the council of Trent showeth; nor should good men stand for Leo his abrogation of what the council of Basil did in this kind, as may be seen in that wicked council of Lateran fwherein much other wicked power is given to the pope and his Legates by Julius III. and Paul the III. and Pius the IIII. and gTheodoret saith, all the Bishops of a Province ought to be at the ordination of a Bishop. The ordination of the worthy, Ambrose, as he hhimself saith, was confirmed by all the Bishops of the East and West. Cornelius Bishop of Rome was confirmed by the Bishops of Africa. More of this may be seen in iZonaras, In kTheodoret lthe council of Carthage and mPetrus a Navarre, who all witness ordination of a Bishop was never done in the ancient Church by one single Congregation, and these destitute of pastors and Elders. The learned say, that Gregory the VII. or Hildebrand did first exclude the people from voicing in elections of pastors. Illiricus saith only from the time of Frederick the XI. about the year, 1300 they were excluded from this power. And though it were true, that the election of Alexander the III.
2. Conclus. But elections in the ancient Church were not by one single congregation, but by the Bishops of diverse other Churches. In the ycouncell of Sardis, Si unum tantùm in provincia contigerit remanere Episcopum, suporstes Episcopus con•• care debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae. & cum iis orainare sibi comprovincales Episcopos; quod si id facero negligat, populus convocare debet Episcopos vicinae provinciae & peter• sibi rectorem. ⟨p. 203⟩In the zcouncell of Toledo it was ordained, that the Bishop of Toledo might chuse in quibustibee Pr•vinciis, in any provinces about Bishops to be his successors, salvo privilegio unius•njusqu• provinciae. Cardinalls are forbidden to usurp to chuse a Bishop, if the see vace in the time of a generall Councell, this was enacted in the councell of *Constance and aBasil. The Abbot of Panormo saith, it was obtained of the councell of Carthage bto avoyde dissension, that they should transfer their right to the Cardinalls. So cAlmain and dGerson prove the equity of this by good reasons. That wicked councell of Trent, labouring to exalt the popes chaire, did abrogate these good acts to the offence of many, as the Author eof the review of the councell of Trent sheweth; nor should good men stand for Leo his abrogation of what the councell of Basil did in this kinde, as may be seene in that wicked councell of Lateran fwherein much other wicked power is given to the pope and his Legates by Iulius III. and Paul the III. and Pius the IIII. and
yConcil. Sardicens. ut ha be•ure. 3. dist. 65.
zConcil. Tolet, 12. can. 6. ut citatur cum longe dist. 63.
so Nicolaus the Pope in his Decrees saith, the Clergy and people did chuse the pope, Reliquus clerus & populus Romanus ad consensum nova electionis pontificis à Cardinalibus factae accedant. So
the Epistles of Ivo Bishop of Chartres, we being called, by the will of God, the Cle•gy and people of such a City, and this Pope Ur••• practised upon Ivo.
himselfe saith, was confirmed by all the Bishops of the East and West. Cornelius Bishop of Rome was confirmed by the Bishops of Africa. More of this may be seene in
Petrus a Navarre, who all witnes ordination of a Bishop was never done in the ancient Church by one single Congregation, and these destitute of pastors and Elders. The learned say, that Gregory the VII. or Hildebrand did first exclude the people from voycing in elections of pastors. Illiricus sayth onely from the time of Frederick the XI. about the yeare, 1300 they were excluded from this power. And though it were true, that the election of Alexander the III.
