Shadows without substance, or, Pretended new lightsShadowes without substance, or, Pretended new lights
Shadows without substance, or, Pretended new lights: together, with the impieties and blasphemies that lurk under them, further discovered and drawn forth into the light: in way of rejoinder unto Mr John Saltmarsh his reply: entitled Shadows flying away. Wherein nothing less is showed to have been performed, then what the title page importeth; or the preface promiseth. As also, divers points of faith and passages of Scripture are vindicated and explained. / By Thomas Gataker, B. of D. and pastor of Rotherhith. Published by authority.Shadowes without substance, or, Pretended new lights: together, with the impieties and blasphemies that lurk under them, further discovered and drawn forth into the light: in way of rejoynder unto Mr Iohn Saltmarsh his reply: entituled Shadowes flying away. Wherein nothing lesse is shewed to have been performed, then what the title page importeth; or the preface promiseth. As also, divers points of faith and passages of Scripture are vindicated and explained. / By Thomas Gataker, B. of D. and pastor of Rotherhith. Published by authority.
Thomas Gataker 1574–1654London: printed for Robert Bostock, 1646
[2], 52, 53a-62k, 53-114, [2] p. · 52k words · Wing G326 · ESTC R201089
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
2. If we do ill in preaching after their first methods; good Sir, be pleased to show us where or when they altered their methods; or where having at first preached, and pressed upon people, faith, repentance, and newness of life, they afterward revoked and repealed any part thereof, as tho formerly needful, yet no more necessary then, or where they imposed ought on any, that came not within compass of these; which if you be not able to do, you have little reason to control us for preaching after that method which they retained, and constantly held on to the last.
2. If we do ill in preaching after their first methods; good Sir, be pleased to shew us where or when they altred their methods; or where having at first preached, and pressed upon people, faith, retance, and newnesse of life, they afterward revoked and repealed any part thereof, as tho formerly needfull, yet no more necessary then, or where they imposed ought on any, that came not within compasse of these; which if you be not able to do, you have litle reason to controll us for preaching after that method which they retained, and constantly held on to the last.
3. Whereas you say (and that it seems is the mischief, and the main ground of the quarrel, that we admit noth your more glorious new lights, as you term them) we look not to the revelation of the mystery, which the Apostle said is now made manifest: Sir, you put me in mind of Dr Alabaster's dotage, ofi a new way of expounding Scripture, which Solomon had foretold, should in these latter days come to light; and was accordingly now revealed to him: For in like manner, it seems you would make us believe, that the Apostle in his times foretold of some mysteries, that should in these days be made known; and that the same are now revealed to your self, and your associates. But, good Sir, when the Apostle saith in the place you point us to,k
The revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began; but now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the Prophets made known to all Nations, for the obedience of faith: did he not speak of the times wherein he lived; and of that mystery of the Gospel, which tho concealed formerly from the Gentiles, yet had bin manifested by Gods Prophets from time to time to his people, and was
out of their writings, and according to the same, by himself, and other
⟨p. 40⟩
the Apostles and Ministers of Christ, in those days preached, revealed, and made known also to the Gentiles? Or, can you hope that any, unless fanatical and fantastical people (I will not say, like your self) can be persuaded (and yet, what are not such prone to believe?) that the Apostle, when he spake that, should so much as dream of Mr S. or I know what other Enthusiasts, and of some Mysteries, that in these times should be revealed to him or any other; which the Apostle himself was either ignorant of, or was loth to trust pen and paper with? But this, Sir, may well render you justly suspected, to be one of the Revelationists, reported to be rise abroad. Howbeit, you must excuse us if we take you not, for any such extraordinary man, either Prophet or Apostle, until you produce a better patent for it. And by your own grounds such an one you must be, if you will profess your self a dispenser of the Gospel; what else import those words of yours else-where, that
Both Presbyterians and Independents have need of Seekers, because none of them have the Ordinances by the first pattern in the Word, as by Apostleship and Baptism of Spirit:
3. Whereas you say (and that it seems is the mischief, and the maine ground of the qarell, that we admit noth your more glorious new lights, as you term them) we look not to the revelation of the mystery, which the Apostle said is now made manifest: Sir, you put me in minde of Dr Alabasters dotage, ofi a new way of expounding Scripture, which Solomon had foretold, should in these latter dayes come to light; and was accordingly now reveiled to him: For in like manner, it seems you would make us believe, that the Apostle in his times foretold of some mysteries, that should in these dayes be made known; and that the same are now reveiled to your self, and your associates. But, good Sir, when the Apostle saith in the place you point us to,k The revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began; but now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the Prophets made known to all Nations, for the obedience of faith: did he not speak of the times wherein he lived; and of that mystery of the Gospel, which tho concealed formerly from the Gentiles, yet had bin manifested by Gods Prophets from time to time to his people, and wasl out of their writings, and according to the same, by himself, and other ⟨p. 40⟩the Apostles and Ministers of Christ, in those dayes preached, reveiled, and made known also to the Gentiles? Or, can you hope that any, unlesse fanaticall and fantasticall people (I will not say, like your self) can be perswaded (and yet, what are not such prone to believe?) that the Apostle, when he spake that, should so much as dream of Mr S. or I know what other Enthusiasts, and of some Mysteries, that in these times should be reveiled to him or any other; which the Apostle himself was either ignorant of, or was loth to trust pen and paper with? But this, Sir, may well render you justly suspected, to be one of the Revelationists, reported to be rise abroad. Howbeit, you must excuse us if we take you not, for any such extraordinary man, either Prophet or Apostel, untill you produce a better patent for it. And by your own grounds such an one you must be, if you will professe your self a dispenser of the Gospel; what else import those words of yours els-where, that* Both Presbyterians and Independents have need of Seekers, because none of them have the Ordinances by the first patern in the Word, as by Apostleship and Baptism of Spirit:
As for Johns manner of preaching, mhis preaching, you say, ought to be no more an example to us then his baptism; and that we know the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater then he.
1. It is true, we know, nour Saviour so saith; and in that respect wherein he so spake, we deny it not; tho we stand not now to discuss it; because it would require a large discourse.
1. It is true, we know, nour Saviour so saith; and in that respect wherein he so spake, we deny it not; tho we stand not now to discusse it; because it would reqire a large discourse.
2. But Sir, for the example of Johns preaching, and the duties he required of those that should be saved by the Messiah, whom he preached, we may well make him our pattern; for that the things required by him were such as were in all ages the same; and the rather are we emboldened so to do, because we find the Apostle Paul in his preaching by his own report (as I haveo showed in mine Answer) treading precisely in his steps, andp paralleling him to an heir: howsoever such preaching (it seems) is now out of date, since the day of other more glorious mysteries revealed unto you and yours.
2. But Sir, for the exampell of Johns preaching, and the duties he reqired of those that should be saved by the Messias, whom he preached, we may well make him our patern; for that the things reqired by him were such as were in all ages the same; and the rather are we emboldned so to do, because we finde the Apostle Paul in his preaching by his own report (as I haveo shewed in mine Answer) treading precisely in his steps, andp paralleling him to an heir: howsoever such preaching (it seems) is now out of date, since the day of other more glorious mysteries reveiled unto you and yours.
3. Nor know I any reason, why his baptism for the substance of it, should not be an example to us also in these times, beingq the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins; that is, if I mistake not, ⟨p. 41⟩baptism obsigning remission of sins upon condition of repentance.
But this expression you take exception to, and cannot endure to hear faith, repentance, and new obedience, termed conditions of life and salvation; and askr why I keep not the wholesome words of Scripture; and where the Scripture calleth these conditions of salvation.
But this expression you take exception to, and cannot endure to hear faith, repentance, and new obedience, termed conditions of life and salvation; and askr why I keep not the wholsome words of Scripture; and where the Scripture calleth these conditions of salvation.
Sir, I will not make stay to insist on the like demand from you, whether Christs believing for us, and repenting for us, be either Scripture phrases or contain in them Scripture doctrine; either such as is found expressed in Scripture, or such as may by necessary consequence be thence deduced; It may peradventure be one of those mysteries that have since the Apostles writings been revealed unto your self and some others, who take upon them to mould us out a new notional Divinity, not in words and terms only, but in matter of faith, other then from the Scriptures which with many are now grown into contempt, we had formerly received.
Sir, I will not make stay to insist on the like demand from you, whether Christs believing for us, and repenting for us, be either Scripture phrases or contain in them Scripture doctrine; either such as is found expressed in Scripture, or such as may by necessary conseqence be thence deduced; It may peradventure be one of those mysteries that have since the Apostles writings been revealed unto your self and some others, who take upon them to mould us out a new notionall Divinity, not in words and terms only, but in matter of faith, other then from the Scriptures which with many are now grown into contempt, we had formerly receaved.
Nor will I stand to examine whether by such demand you intend to help out Paul Best, that blasphemous beast his impious assertions: (Fors that was the main objection the Arian and others of that way used, that the Names and Terms were not found in Scripture:) the rather to be suspected, because you are so eager a pleadert for opinions of all sorts.
sVideantur Dionysius Alex. apud Athanas. de ejus Sent. Gregor. Naz. de Theolog. Orat. 5. Ambros. de fide c. 5. Aug. epist. 178.
Nor will I take exception to your misrelating of my words, that faith, repentance, and new obedience are conditions of life and salvation; for I no where so speak, but thatu pardon of sin and salvation are propounded and preached upon condition of faith, repentance and newness of life, which are the conditions of the Gospel; and yet may they also be so termed, as conditions of peace, xupon agreement unto, and performance whereof, peace may be had, which otherwherewise cannot be obtained.
Nor will I take exception to your misrelating of my words, that faith, repentance, and new obedience are conditions of life and salvation; for I no where so speak, but thatu pardon of sin and salvation are propounded and preached upon condition of faith, repentance and newnesse of life, which are the conditions of the Gospel; and yet may they also be so termed, as conditions of peace, xupon agreement unto, and performance whereof, peace may be had, which otherwherewise cannot be obtained.
Only Sir, I shall endeavour by help of Logic out of Scripture thus toy justify the use of that term.
Only Sir, I shall endeavour by help of Logick out of Scripture thus toy justifie the use of that term.
y[Greek or Hebrew]. Athan. de Syn. Nic. Idem fere Cyr l. de Tr nit. dial. 1.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Athan. de Syn. Nic. Idem fere Cyr l. de Tr nit. dial. 1.
That which is so propounded as that being performed life and salvation may undoubtedly be attained, and without which it cannot be had; may well be termed a condition.
Yea, but this say you, isa to make a condition by consequence; and the interpreting of the Spirit thus in the letter, and by consequence ⟨p. 42⟩hath much darkened the glory of the Gospel; and when as bsome of Christs Disciples took his words as I do, under a condition, cExcept ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, &c? the words, saith he, that I speak are Spirit.
Yea, but this say you, isa to make a condition by consequence; and the interpreting of the Spirit thus in the letter, and by consequence ⟨p. 42⟩hath much darkned the glory of the Gospel; and when as bsome of Christs Disciples took his words as I do, under a condition, cExcept ye eat the flesh of the Sonne of man, &c? the words, saith he, that I speak are Spirit.
