A93091:164
A treatise of liturgies, power of the keys, and of matter of the visible…A treatise of liturgies, power of the keyes, and of matter of the visible…
A treatise of liturgies, power of the keys, and of matter of the visible church. In answer to the reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball. By Thomas Shepherd, sometimes fellow of Emanuel-College in Cambridge, and late pastor of Cambridge in New-England.A treatise of liturgies, power of the keyes, and of matter of the visible church. In answer to the reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball. By Thomas Shephard, sometimes fellow of Emanuel-Colledge in Cambridge, and late pastour of Cambridge in New-England.
London: printed by E. Cotes for Andrew Crooke, 1652
Title page typeset from the transcription.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Answ. There is a wide difference between the whole Liturgy, so imposed, and so clogged, as is before showed: and such prayers of the Minister having something amiss. But you may put the case so, as it would be unlawful for people to join in such prayers also: as if the Minister for matter usually pray to Saints, for manner, turn himself, and fix his eye on a Crucifix.
Answ. There is a wide difference betweene the whole Liturgie, so imposed, and so clogged, as is before shewed: and such prayers of the Minister having something amisse. But you may put the case so, as it would bee unlawfull for people to joyne in such prayers also: as if the Minister for matter usually pray to Saints, for manner, turne himselfe, and fix his eye on a Crucifix.
Reply. It is all one to the people in this •ase, whether the fault be personal (as some distinguish) or otherwise; known before hand or not known; for if simple presence defile, whether known before hand or not, all presence is faulty, and if simple presence defile not, our presence is not condemned by reason of the corruptions known, whereof we stand not guilty.
Reply. It is all one to the people in this •ase, whether the fault bee personall (as some distinguish) or otherwise; knowne before hand or not knowne; for if simple presence defile, whether knowne before hand or not, all presence is faultie, and if simple presence defile not, our presence is not condemned by reason of the corruptions knowne, whereof wee stand not guiltie.
Answ. First, we distinguish not here between personal and ministerial faults, but object against the personal act of him that joins with that whole Liturgy, and so in the corruptions of it, as he must needs do, that joins with the whole, not only saying Amen to them, but as is known he takes his share in those shreds of prayers, Responds, &c. which in Mr. Cartwrights judgement is so absurd, as makes a man seem out of his wits. And therefore his personal, actual conformity must needs carry guilt, and therefore there is more then simple presence in this case, as is clear to any understanding.
Answ. First, we distinguish not here between personall and ministeriall faults, but object against the personall act of him that joynes with that whole Liturgie, and so in the corruptions of it, as hee must needs doe, that joyns with the whole, not onely saying Amen to them, but as is knowne he takes his share in those shreds of prayers, Responds, &c. which in Mr. Cartwrights judgement is so absurd, as makes a man seeme out of his wits. And therefore his personall, actuall conformitie must needs carry guilt, and therefore there is more then simple presence in this case, as is cleare to any understanding.
Secondly, it is not all one whether the faults be known, or not known before hand, as appears plainly, 1 Cor. 10. 27, 28, 29. where we see, if a man come to a feast, and know not they eat with reference to the Idol, nor that any take offence, he may eat without asking any question: but if he know such things, he may not eat.
Secondly, it is not all one whether the faults bee knowne, or not knowne before hand, as appeares plainely, 1 Cor. 10. 27, 28, 29. where wee see, if a man come to a feast, and know not they eate with reference to the Idoll, nor that any take offence, he may eate without asking any question: but if hee know such things, he may not eate.
Besides, public sinful actions of Ministers are either, 1 Accidental & occasional, or 2ly. known & appointed in a stated service; now the frailties of a Minister, which accidentally fall in and are not known before, nor are any part and essence of the service, unto which men that come, do or should take themselves to be called, hinder not communion; because they do not prae see far by their presence to attend and observe them, but the corruptions of the Liturgy are known and appointed, and to which and with which the imposers call others to join as in a stated service to God; the use of which if it be an humane frailty in Gods Ministers, not yet convinced of the evil thereof, yet for those to communicate herein, who know such evils, have surely passed the bounds of frailty and infirmity; because in this action of prayer there is not only communion by way of presence, as it is in hearing the word; but communion of action: public prayer being the common action of the whole Church towards God. There can be no prayer by any man offered to God, but there will be some humane frailties attending on it; if therefore for this cause we should reject communion in prayer, we should reject the ordinances of God, and never join in any prayer in this world; but the corruptions of the Liturgy are not such, but that they may be more easily cast off, then kept.
Besides, publique sinfull actions of Ministers are either, 1 Accidental & occasional, or 2ly. known & appointed in a stated service; now the frailties of a Minister, which accidentally fall in and are not known before, nor are any part and essence of the service, unto which men that come, doe or should take themselves to bee called, hinder not communion; because they doe not prae se ferre by their presence to attend and observe them, but the corruptions of the Liturgie are knowne and appointed, and to which and with which the imposers call others to joyne as in a stated service to God; the use of which if it bee an humane frailtie in Gods Ministers, not yet convinced of the evill thereof, yet for those to communicate herein, who know such evills, have surely passed the bounds of frailtie and infirmitie; because in this action of prayer there is not onely communion by way of presence, as it is in hearing the word; but communion of action: publique prayer being the common action of the whole Church towards God. There can be no prayer by any man offered to God, but there will be some humane frailties attending on it; if therefore for this cause wee should reject communion in prayer, wee should reject the ordinances of God, and never joyne in any prayer in this world; but the corruptions of the Liturgie are not such, but that they may bee more easily cast off, then kept.
This case stands not in tolerating faults in another (as the reply makes it) but in actual joining with the sins of another, ⟨p. 56⟩wherein he that joineth is involved, and therefore whether they be corruptions, that may be tolerated or not in another, yet if sins, they may not be practised and so joined in with another. And therefore the case you put of communion with any person obstinate in error, till he may be convinced, is nothing to this purpose. For we must not join with him in his error, no not an hour, though we may tolerate him a month.
This case stands not in tolerating faults in another (as the reply makes it) but in actuall joyning with the sinnes of another, ⟨p. 56⟩wherein hee that joyneth is involved, and therefore whether they bee corruptions, that may bee tolerated or not in another, yet if sinnes, they may not bee practised and so joyned in with another. And therefore the case you put of communion with any person obstinate in errour, till hee may bee convinced, is nothing to this purpose. For wee must not joyne with him in his error, no not an houre, though wee may tolerate him a moneth.
Reply. Hath not Christian wisdom and experience of humane frailties lessoned you (dear brethren) to bear one with another in matters of greater consequence, then any have, or can be objected truly against the form of prayer in use among us?
Reply. Hath not Christian wisedome and experience of humane frailties lessoned you (deare brethren) to beare one with another in matters of greater consequence, then any have, or can bee objected truely against the forme of prayer in use among us?
Answ. The Lord hath lessoned us to tolerate and bear with many humane frailties not only in one another, but also in our dear brethren abroad; but to join with the best of men in conformity to known and gross corruptions in worshipping God, or to stoop so low, to the insolent tyranny of usurping Prelates, as to bear on our backs their whole Liturgy, and the corruptions thereof, we confess we have not yet learned, and now we hope never to go to that school again to learn the same.
Answ. The Lord hath lessoned us to tolerate and beare with many humane frailties not onely in one another, but also in our deare brethren abroad; but to joyne with the best of men in conformitie to knowne and grosse corruptions in worshipping God, or to stoop so low, to the insolent tyranny of usurping Prelates, as to beare on our backs their whole Liturgie, and the corruptions thereof, wee confesse wee have not yet learned, and now wee hope never to goe to that schoole againe to learne the same.
Reply. And why such corruptions should not be ascribed to humane frailty, we see not. For if a godly Minister make use of a book, in things which he judges lawful for matter and manner, the corruption of him that useth it, according to his judgement, from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailty?
Reply. And why such corruptions should not bee ascribed to humane frailtie, we see not. For if a godly Minister make use of a booke, in things which hee judges lawfull for matter and manner, the corruption of him that useth it, according to his judgement, from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailtie?
Answ. First, the learned replier is very apt to forget the terms of the Proposition, which is of the whole Liturgy, not of some things in it, that he may judge lawful, to judge the whole lawful, we think none of those who sent the questions do.
Answ. First, the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Proposition, which is of the whole Liturgie, not of some things in it, that hee may judge lawfull, to judge the whole lawfull, wee thinke none of those who sent the questions doe.
Secondly, our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailty, but whether the worship offered therein, be not so corrupt for matter and manner, as puts a great difference between it, and the prayers of a Minister that may be subject to failings of humane frailty. We doubt not, but Bilney, Latimer, &c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome, out of humane frailty, yet the service it self and those ceremonies of holy water, holy bread, &c. which Latimer turned to as good use, as he could, were evil and no way to be conformed unto by the godly.
Secondly, our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailtie, but whether the worship offered therein, bee not so corrupt for matter and manner, as puts a great difference betweene it, and the prayers of a Minister that may bee subject to faylings of humane frailtie. Wee doubt not, but Bilney, Latimer, &c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome, out of humane frailtie, yet the service it selfe and those ceremonies of holy water, holy bread, &c. which Latimer turned to as good use, as hee could, were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly.
Thirdly, there are many things done of others through humane ⟨p. 57⟩frailty, that is, ignorantly and in some measure perversely, yet such frailties, though they are to be very long tolerated in the man, yet every humane frailty is not so to be tolerated, as to be communicated with; for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense, if ignorantly done, be accounted humane frailty. It is true, we may be freed from communicating in another's sin two ways. 1. By bearing witness against his sin, or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it. There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the growing abominations of Antichrist for many years; and there are times (as Cameron well observes) wherein the Lord commands his people not only to bear witness, but to come out of Babylon. The case may be so put as that we may quit our hands from communicating with other men, in their sinful worship, by bearing witness only against the sin, yet communicating with them in the rest; & è contra the circumstances may be such, as that we best free our selves from sin, by withdrawing from them in such acts. And we freely confess we know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgy, without the one or the other.
Thirdly, there are many things done of others through humane ⟨p. 57⟩frailtie, that is, ignorantly and in some measure perversely, yet such frailties, though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man, yet every humane frailtie is not so to bee tolerated, as to bee communicated with; for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense, if ignorantly done, be accounted humane frailtie. It is true, wee may bee freed from communicating in anothers sinne two wayes. 1. By bearing witnesse against his sinne, or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it. There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the growing abominations of Antichrist for many yeeres; and there are times (as Cameron well observes) wherein the Lord commands his people not onely to beare witnesse, but to come out of Babylon. The case may be so put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men, in their sinfull worship, by bearing witnesse onely against the sinne, yet communicating with them in the rest; & è contra the circumstances may bee such, as that wee best free our selves from sinne, by withdrawing from them in such acts. And wee freely confesse wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie, without the one or the other.
Reply. We rest assured you question not the integrity of many, who make much more use of the book, then only in a few select prayers.
Reply. Wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many, who make much more use of the booke, then onely in a few select prayers.
Answ. You may so do, and we rest assured you question not the integrity of many that have conformed to the ceremonies, yet we hope you will not justify them in that act, no more then we do any in this.
Answ. You may so doe, and wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies, yet wee hope you will not justifie them in that act, no more then we doe any in this.
Reply. From the bottom of our hearts, we pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends, and yet all things might be so done, as might be approved in the consciences of all.
Reply. From the bottome of our hearts, wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends, and yet all things might be so done, as might be approved in the consciences of all.
Answ. We not only join with you in this hearty desire, but bless God that we live to see the same so far accomplished in a good part of England, as it is; but as we are persuaded the growing light and zeal of many godly Ministers and Christians, that have discovered the evil of the book it self, as well as the ceremonies thereof, and their resolute rejection of the same, was one blessed means hereof, so we fear the pleas and endeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it, will be a dangerous means to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it, and loathness to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats, from whence it first came.
Answ. Wee not onely joyne with you in this hearty desire, but blesse God that wee live to see the same so farre accomplished in a good part of England, as it is; but as wee are perswaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Ministers and Christians, that have discovered the evill of the booke it selfe, as well as the ceremonies thereof, and their resolute rejection of the same, was one blessed meanes hereof, so wee feare the pleas and indeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it, will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it, and loathnesse to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats, from whence it first came.