A treatise of liturgies, power of the keys, and of matter of the visible…A treatise of liturgies, power of the keyes, and of matter of the visible…

Secondly, if any yet have not so far renounced those Churches they belonged unto, yet they are not orderly recommended unto us, which also you grant ought to be, and indeed otherwise we may oft receive persons justly excommunicate, or such as are no members of Churches any where, or otherwise under great offence, as frequent examples amongst our selves do show, though the Church may think well of such as offer themselves. What else follows in this Paragraph, is the same in substance, and much of it in words also, that we have answered before; and therefore we pass it over; and that of the Jewish Church we shall speak to after. As for that you desire leave to set down, and us to examine what may be objected against that we affirmed, That the distinct Churches named in the New Testament were Congregational Societies; we shall consider as followeth:

Secondly, if any yet have not so far renounced those Churches they belonged unto, yet they are not orderly recommended unto us, which also you grant ought to be, and indeed otherwise we may oft receive persons justly excommunicate, or such as are no members of Churches any where, or otherwise under great offence, as frequent examples amongst our selves doe shew, though the Church may think well of such as offer themselves. What else follows in this Paragraph, is the same in substance, and much of it in words also, that we have answered before; and therefore we passe it over; and that of the Jewish Church we shall speak to after. As for that you desire leave to set down, and us to examine what may be objected against that we affirmed, That the distinct Churches named in the New Testament were Congregationall Societies; we shall consider as followeth:

Reply. The number of believers were so great in some Cities, that they could not conveniently meet in one place as one Assembly to worship God according to his will, and for their edifying, as in Samaria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus.

Reply. The number of beleevers were so great in some Cities, that they could not conveniently meet in one place as one Assembly to worship God according to his will, and for their edifying, as in Samaria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus.

Answ. Although we expected not Objections in this case against the currant Tenet of our godly Reformers, Bath, Parker, &c. with whom we join; and we might refer you to them for answer to this beaten Objection of the Prelates; yet we are not unwilling to examine what is said in this digression. The Argument stands thus: If the number of believers were so great in some City, as could not meet in one Assembly to edification; then there was some other form of a Church besides Congregational; But so it was in Samaria, &c▪ Answ. We deny the consequences, for when they grew to so great a number, they might fall into more Congregational Churches, and so no other form arise from the multitude; but we suppose you mean of such a multitude as is called a Church; and therefore to answer to your Assumption, we deny that any such multitude of believers as is here called a Church were so great as could not meet to edification: And first concerning Samaria.

Answ. Although we expected not Objections in this case against the currant Tenent of our godly Reformers, Baine, Parker, &c. with whom we joyn; and we might refer you to them for answer to this beaten Objection of the Prelates; yet we are not unwilling to examine what is said in this digression. The Argument stands thus: If the number of beleevers were so great in some City, as could not meet in one Assembly to edification; then there was some other form of a Church besides Congregationall; But so it was in Samaria, &c▪ Answ. We deny the consequences, for when they grew to so great a number, they might fall into more Congregationall Churches, and so no other form arise from the multitude; but we suppose you mean of such a multitude as is called a Church; and therefore to answer to your Assumption, we deny that any such multitude of beleevers as is here called a Church were so great as could not meet to edification: And first concerning Samaria.

Answ. We grant a Church or Churches were gathered in Samaria▪ and we accept your reason as good, because they received the ⟨p. 127⟩Word, and were baptized, where (by the way) you grant what we pleaded for before, That the Apostles gathered Churches, when they baptized them: but that there was but one Congregational Assembly, lies not in us to prove, until you prove that all the believers were called a Church, or one Church, which doth not appear in the whole story, Acts 8. nor any other where that we can find; and it is very probable that as Philip converted and baptized so great a multitude at several times, and gathered them into the Church or Churches as he baptized them, so he might gather several Churches, as well as one, seeing that none doubt but that Congregational Churches are an ordinance of Christ, what ever men contend for beside. And therefore be the number of believers in Samaria as great as you would have it, it proves nothing.

Answ. We grant a Church or Churches were gathered in Samaria▪ and we accept your reason as good, because they received the ⟨p. 127⟩Word, and were baptized, where (by the way) you grant what we pleaded for before, That the Apostles gathered Churches, when they baptized them: but that there was but one Congregationall Assembly, lyes not in us to prove, untill you prove that all the beleevers were called a Church, or one Church, which doth not appear in the whole story, Acts 8. nor any other where that we can finde; and it is very probable that as Philip converted and baptized so great a multitude at severall times, and gathered them into the Church or Churches as he baptized them, so he might gather severall Churches, as well as one, seeing that none doubt but that Congregationall Churches are an ordinance of Christ, what ever men contend for beside. And therefore be the number of beleevers in Samaria as great as you would have it, it proves nothing.

Reply. The Church at Jerusalem was one, and distinct, yet increased to 3000, then to 5000, &c.

Reply. The Church at Jerusalem was one, and distinct, yet encreased to 3000, then to 5000, &c.

Answ. Be it so, the increase was very great; yet so long as they are called one distinct Church, it was one Congregation, viz. until they scattering by the persecution about Stephen, Acts 7. 8. which is evident by these two arguments. First, Acts 2 41, &c. where we see the 3000 added to the 120. they have their communion together described: 1 In regard of their spiritual communion, to be in the Apostles doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread and Prayer, verse 42. Secondly, in regard of their outward communion in the good things of this life; they bad all things common, and sold their possessions, &c. verse 44, & 45: Now the manner of both parts of this communion in respect of time and place is described, verse 46. viz. in their spiritual duties; They continued daily with one accord in the Temple. And secondly, in respect of their outward communion in their States, They eat their meat from house to house; this latter requiring many tables and many houses to provide for them; so that although in their outward communion, it was in private houses, yet their spiritual communion it was with one accord in one place, viz. the Temple, where they had room enough; being the place erected for a National Church; and having favour with all the people, were not interrupted therein by any persecution. We need not step out of our way to reply to all that is said against this reason. It is enough for us to note, that they daily with one ⟨p. 124⟩accord met, and that in the Temple, which is not answered by any [Greek or Hebrew], or [Greek or Hebrew].

Answ. Be it so, the increase was very great; yet so long as they are called one distinct Church, it was one Congregation, viz. untill they scattering by the persecution about Stephen, Acts 7. 8. which is evident by these two arguments. First, Acts 2 41, &c. where we see the 3000 added to the 120. they have their communion together described: 1 In regard of their spirituall communion, to be in the Apostles doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread and Prayer, verse 42. Secondly, in regard of their outward communion in the good things of this life; they bad all things common, and sold their possessions, &c. verse 44, & 45: Now the manner of both parts of this communion in respect of time and place is described, verse 46. viz. in their spirituall duties; They continued daily with one accord in the Temple. And secondly, in respect of their outward communion in their States, They eat their meat from house to house; this latter requiring many tables and many houses to provide for them; so that although in their outward communion, it was in private houses, yet their spirituall communion it was with one accord in one place, viz. the Temple, where they had room enough; being the place erected for a Nationall Church; and having favour with all the people, were not interrupted therein by any persecution. We need not step out of our way to reply to all that is said against this reason. It is enough for us to note, that they daily with one ⟨p. 124⟩accord met, and that in the Temple, which is not answered by any 〈non-Latin alphabet〉, or 〈non-Latin alphabet〉.

2 This appeareth, Acts 6. 1, 5. where it is evident the election of Deacons was before, and by the multitude, verse 1. by the whole multitude, verse 5. and this was the last Church-meeting and Church-act we read of before their scattering; neither can it appear that the Jews and Grecians, whose Widows murmured were two distinct Congregations; but the contrary is evident, in that the Deacons were chosen all by the whole, and for the whole, not distinctly so many for this, and so many for that Church, as it was needful if they were two Churches. These proofs being so clear, the inconveniences objected are of no force, and sufficiently answered by many examples of as great Assemblies meeting ordinarily to edification; as beside the Auditory of Chrysostom, cited by others; the Assemblies of Stepney in London, Y•rmouth in Norfolk, and others in our experience. Beza, a man not loving to hyperbolize, saith, that being in Paris, there met at a Sermon ^*24000. And of a Synodal Assembly that they received the Lords-supper no less then 10000. Beza Epist. 65.

2 This appeareth, Acts 6. 1, 5. where it is evident the election of Deacons was before, and by the multitude, verse 1. by the whole multitude, verse 5. and this was the last Church-meeting and Church-act we read of before their scattering; neither can it appear that the Jews and Grecians, whose Widows murmured were two distinct Congregations; but the contrary is evident, in that the Deacons were chosen al by the whole, and for the whole, not distinctly so many for this, and so many for that Church, as it was needful if they were two Churches. These proofs being so clear, the inconveniences objected are of no force, and sufficiently answered by many examples of as great Assemblies meeting ordinarily to edification; as beside the Auditory of Chrysostome, cited by others; the Assemblies of Stepney in London, Y•rmouth in Norfolk, and others in our experience. Beza, a man not loving to hyperbolize, saith, that being in Paris, there met at a Sermon ^*24000. And of a Synodall Assembly that they received the Lords-supper no lesse then 10000. Beza Epist. 65.

1. *Calvin Epist. 332.

Reply. Without question the number of believers at Antioch was not small, of which it is expressly said, That a great number believed, and that a great multitude were added to the Lord by the preaching of Barnabas, &c. and therefore we may think the Church rose to such a bigness as could not well assemble in one Congregation, Acts 11. 21. & 14. 27.

Reply. Without question the number of beleevers at Antioch was not small, of which it is expresly said, That a great number beleeved, and that a great multitude were added to the Lord by the preaching of Barnabas, &c. and therefore we may think the Church rose to such a bignesse as could not well assemble in one Congregation, Acts 11. 21. & 14. 27.

Answ. 1 In that place, Acts 11. 21. the great number that believed, was the fruit of all the scattered Christians at Phenice, Cyprus, and Antioch; for the hand of the Lord was with them all, and their whole success is summed up together, nothing said before of the other places.

Answ. 1 In that place, Acts 11. 21. the great number that beleeved, was the fruit of all the scattered Christians at Phenice, Cyprus, and Antioch; for the hand of the Lord was with them all, and their whole successe is summed up together, nothing said before of the other places.

2 Though Paul and Barnabas taught much people, yet it proveth not that this much people were converted to the Church.

3 Though much people were added to the Lord, yet doth it follow they were more then could meet in one Congregation? and if first Disciples were there called Christians, must it needs be for their number, and not rather for eminent likeness to Christ, with other specialities of providence?

4 It is expressly said, the Church was gathered together, Acts 14. 27. which is not meant of the Elders only, as if they only could meet; for Chap. 15. 30. They gathered the multitude together; ⟨p. 127⟩so that it was not such a number but might meet together in one place.

4 It is expresly said, the Church was gathered together, Acts 14. 27. which is not meant of the Elders onely, as if they onely could meet; for Chap. 15. 30. They gathered the multitude together; ⟨p. 127⟩so that it was not such a number but might meet together in one place.

Reply. The number of believers was great at Ephesus, where Paul preached two years; all that dwelt in Asia heard the Word; a great door and effectual ways open to him, where the Shrines of Diana her Temple were in danger to be set at nought; where those that used curious arts, burnt their books openly: which could not be done without great danger of the Church, unless a great part of the City had believed, Acts 19. 10, 19, 27.

Reply. The number of beleevers was great at Ephesus, where Paul preached two years; all that dwelt in Asia heard the Word; a great door and effectuall ways open to him, where the Shrines of Diana her Temple were in danger to be set at nought; where those that used curious arts, burnt their books openly: which could not be done without great danger of the Church, unlesse a great part of the City had beleeved, Acts 19. 10, 19, 27.

Answ. 1 Be it so, that many were converted, and the Word grew mightily; this proves not that all who heard Paul, were of the Church of Ephesus, for then all Asia should be of that Church, (Acts 19. 10.) who did hear the Word both Jews and Gentiles; As for the danger of the Shrines, and Diana's Temple to be set at nought, a little spark might kindle such fears, and raise such outcries in the covetous Craftsmen, by whom the whole City was set in a superstitious uproar; our own experience may teach, how soon a profane people will cry out against a faithful Minister before he hath converted ten men in a City.

Answ. 1 Be it so, that many were converted, and the Word grew mightily; this proves not that all who heard Paul, were of the Church of Ephesus, for then all Asia should be of that Church, (Acts 19. 10.) who did hear the Word both Jews and Gentiles; As for the danger of the Shrines, and Diana's Temple to be set at nought, a little spark might kindle such fears, and raise such outcryes in the covetous Craftsmen, by whom the whole City was set in a superstitious uproare; our own experience may teach, how soon a prophane people will cry out against a faithfull Minister before he hath converted ten men in a City.

2 That they could not burn their books openly without danger to the Churches, except a great part of the City believed, seems a strange reason: as if believers durst not profess openly, except they had a great number to maintain them with club-law: open profession in those times even amongst a few, was not wont to be daunted with the grim looks of persecution.

2 That they could not burn their books openly without danger to the Churches, except a great part of the City beleeved, seems a strange reason: as if beleevers durst not professe openly, except they had a great number to maintain them with club-law: open profession in those times even amongst a few, was not wont to be daunted with the grim looks of persecution.