The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. Then I mistook his meaning, touching the succession; and yours, touching the Popes. For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes, who were thieves and robbers. Now I perceive you meant not absolutely, and simply, that they were not Popes; but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort: they were cracked Popes, as you would say, and not sound; or perhaps (in truth) rather crazed, then cracked. Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes, doth stand in force against them still. For it is true, as you said, that they did not succeed lawfully. Wherefore, either lawful succession is not necessary unto your succession: or the crazed Popes were no Popes at all. They did succeed Simon, but 1Simon the sorcerer, and not Simon Peter. Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successors for your successions ⟨p. 334⟩sake. Else you spoil your Church of her gayest ornament, through which the unskilful are most enamoured of her. Beside that neither would it help your cause a whit in trial of the issue. For sithence the Pope hath overmastered the Emperors, and thrust from his election, first them, then the people, afterward the clergy; & sbrought it to a few Cardinals: there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, (still I except *John,) and have come in as unlawfully.
Rainoldes. Then I mistooke his meaning, touching the succession; and yours, touching the Popes. For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes, who were theeues and robbers. Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely, and simply, that they were not Popes; but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort: they were crackt Popes, as you would say, and not sound; or perhaps (in truth) rather crased, then crackt. Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes, doth stand in force against them still. For it is true, as you said, that they did not succeede lawfully. Wherefore, either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession: or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon, but 1
Simon the sorcerer, and not Simon Peter. Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions
⟨p. 334⟩
sake. Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament, through which ye vnskilfull are most enamored of her. Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue. For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours, and thrust from his election, first them, then the people, afterward the clergie; &
Hart. There were many tumults and schisms in the Church, chiefly through the Emperors means, before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripeness which it is now at. But things began to mend from that time of disorder. For by the virtue of Leo the ninth, and the Popes following, that usurpation was taken from the Emperor Henry the fourth, although with great stirs. And so was the See Apostolic of Rome restored to her ancient brightness and beauty. Whereof our own days have seen the proof and trial in many good Popes, elected lawfully, no doubt: Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and him who reigneth now, Gregory the thirteenth, a most loving father of the Churches children.
Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church, chiefely through the Emperours meanes, before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at. But things began to mend from that time of disorder. For by the vertue of Leo the ninth, and the Popes folowing, that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth, although with great sturres. And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty. Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes, elected lawfully, no doubt: Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and him who raigneth now, Gregorie the thirtéenth, a most louing father of the Churches children.
Rainoldes. Whether that these Popes, or other, have been good; and their elections lawful: it is not the question. Perhaps you praise them for affection: perhaps they have been good, as Popes. For Popes in our days are praised for their goodness, when they surpass not the wickedness of other men: as a tgood historian, who knew and loved them well, doth note in 1Clemens the seventh. 2Marcellus the second dyed the two and twentieth day of his Popedom not without suspicion of poison, (saith your Genebrard,) *because some men thought that he would be to good. Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and Gregory the thirteenth have held the Popedom longer. If they were good Popes: I trust they were not too good. As for their elections: the days are yet too young to see the faithful stories of them. But, if they were chosen as their predecessors, according to the custom of the Church of Rome: then by the elections of uPius the third, xJulius the second, yLeo the tenth, zClemens the seventh, and Cardinal aWolsey's letters suing to succeed Clemens, wise men may conjecture▪ how lawfully they were chosen. You say that there were many ⟨p. 339⟩tumults, and schisms, chiefly through the Emperors means, before the Popes election could be wrested from them, and brought to the Cardinals: but after that time, things began to mend. In deed they have mended, as sower ale doth in summer. For of bthirty schisms in the Church of Rome (so many as no Church can boast of besides▪) the worst and the longest hath been sith that time, even *the nine and twentieth: which lasted by the space of fifty years together, first, with two Popes at once; then, with three. And, if the Emperor Sigismund had not been, cthrough whose means the Council of Constance was assembled, and the three removed: by this time your Church might have had as many Popes, as (in dthe Revelation) the scarlet coloured beast hath heads. But to leave the Emperors, and prove the point in question, that since the Popes were chosen only by the Cardinals there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, and have come in as unlawfully: there are so many examples, that it is hard to make choice, or know where to begin amongst them. Let him be the first, who compiled 1part of the canon law, and 2that lusty decretal of the Popes supremacy, even Boniface the eighth.
Rainoldes. Whether that these Popes, or other, haue béene good; and their elections lawfull: it is not the question. Perhaps you praise them for affection: perhaps they haue béene good, as Popes. For Popes in our daies are praysed for their goodnes, when they surpasse not the wickednes of other men: as a tgood historian, who knew and loued them well, doth note in 1Clemens the seuenth. 2Marcellus the second dyed the two and twentéeth day of his Popedome not without suspicion of poyson, (saith your Genebrard,) *because some men thought that he would be to good. Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and Gregorie the thirtéenth haue held the Popedome longer. If they were good Popes: I trust they were not too good. As for their electious: the daies are yet too young to sée the faithfull stories of them. But, if they were chosen as their predecessours, according to the custome of the Church of Rome: then by ye elections of uPius the third, xIulius the second, yLeo the tenth, zClemens the seuenth, and Cardinall aWoolseis letters suing to succéede Clemens, wise men may coniecture▪ how lawfully they were chosen. You say that there were many ⟨p. 339⟩tumultes, and schismes, chiefly through the Emperours meanes, before the Popes election could bee wrested from them, and brought to the Cardinals: but after that time, thinges began to mende. In déede they haue mended, as sower ale doth in summer. For of bthirtie schismes in the Church of Rome (so many as no Church can boast of besides▪) the worst and the longest hath béene sith that time, euen
tGuicciardia. histor. Ital. l. 16.
1Who was Pope in the year 1533.Who was Pope in the yeare 1533.
2Pope in Queen Maries days. 1555.Pope in Queene Maries daies. 1555.
aIn M. Foxc• English ecclesiast. history.In M. Foxc• English ecclesiast. historie.
bO•uphr. in Chronic. Rom. •out.
*Schisma omnium pessimum, & diuturnius in ecclesia Rom. xxix. quod quinquaginta annos perduravit.Schisma omnium pessimum, & diuturnius in ecclesia Rom. xxix. quod quinquaginta annos perdurauit.
cAntonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 22. c. 6. Paul. Aemil. de reb. gest. Francor. l. 10.
Who being inflamed with desire of the Popedom, einduced Pope Caelestin, a simple man to resign it; whether fby persuading him, that he was not able to wield a charge so weighty, or gby procuring some to sound unto him in the night a voice as it were from heaven, that, if he would be saved he must resign the Popedom, or by both these practises, but he induced him to resign it: and hnot looking to be called by God, as was Aaron, he got it to him self by unorderly means, iall that ambition could devise. Neither did he govern it better, then he got it. For being a man of intolerable pride, and thirsting after gold unspeakably, he bore himself as kLord of spiritual things and temporal throughout the whole world. lHe took upon him at his lust to give and take away kingdoms; to banish men, and to restore them: and sought to breed terror rather then religion in the minds of Emperors, of Kings, of Princes, of peoples and of nations. mHe was the 3first author of your year of Jubilee, 4proclaiming full remission of sins, to all them, who came in pilgrimage to Rome, (a great gain nto him and his:) and ⟨p. 338⟩oat that Jubilee he showed himself in his solemnities, one day attired like a Pope, an other like an Emperor, and having a naked sword before him, he sate and said with loud voice, Behold the two swords here. qHe cast his predecessor Caelestine into prison, and brought him there unto his grave. qHe vexed the country of Italy with wars, and nourished discords amongst them. rHe said that both the land and persons of the Scots 3belonged to his Chapel, that under that pretence he might trouble England, and cite king Edward to his judgement. sHe refused to accept of Albert chosen Emperor by the Princes of Germany, because they made choice without his authority, who had (he said him self) the right of both swords. tHe deprived the French king of his kingdom upon displeasure; uand moved the king of England to make war against him; xand granted to Albert that he should be Emperor, on condition that he would take the realm of France also, and thrust the lawful king out of it. And more he would have done of such Papal affairs, yunless the French king to tame his pride had took him prisoner: whereupon he dyed within a few days for grief. This is that Boniface, of whom zthe saying goeth:
Who being inflamed with desire of the Popedome, einduced Pope Caelestin, a simple man to resigne it; whether fby perswading him, that hee was not able to wéelde a charge so weighty, or gby procuring some to sound vnto him in the night a voice as it were from heauen, that, if he would be saued he must resigne the Popedom, or by both these practises, but he induced him to resigne it: and hnot looking to be called by God, as was Aaron, he got it to him selfe by vnorderly meanes, iall that ambition could deuise. Neither did he gouerne it better, then he got it. For being a man of intolerable pride, and thirsting after gold vnspeakeably, he bore himselfe as kLorde of spirituall thinges and temporall throughout the whole world. lHe tooke vpon him at his lust to giue and take away kingdomes; to banish men, and to restore them: and sought to bréede terrour rather then religion in the mindes of Emperours, of Kinges, of Princes, of peoples and of nations. mHe was the 3first autour of your yeare of Iubilee, 4proclaiming full remission ofsinnes, to all them, who came in pilgrimage to Rome, (a great gaine nto him and his:) and ⟨p. 338⟩oat that Iubilee he shewed himselfe in his solemnities, one day attired like a Pope, an other like an Emperour, and hauing a naked sworde before him, he sate and saide with loude voyce, Beholde the two swordes here. q
ePlatin. in Caelestino quint.
fBlond. decad. 2. lib. 9.
gPlatin. in Bonifac. octau. Genebrard. Chronog. lib. 4.
hAntonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 20. c. 8
iPlatin. in Bonifac. octau.
kMartin. Polon. in supput. Pont. in append.
lGaguin. hist. Francor. lib. 7. Platin. in Bonifac. octau.
mTritem▪ in Chron. monast. Hir•.
3In the year of Christ 1300.In the yeare of Christ 1300.
4c. Antiquorū. extra. De poenit. & remissionib.c. Antiquorū. extra. De poenit. & remissionib.
He entered like a fox, he reigned like a lion, he dyed like a dog. An other like to him, but in an other kind, is aJohn the three and twentieth. bWho got (while he was Cardinal) a great deal of money, and finding the Cardinals somewhat poor and needy gave them gentle rewards. Whereupon they, seeing him to be a liberal man, made him Pope for it. But that liberality was his chiefest virtue. For, he was cfitter for the camp, then for the Church; for profane things, then for the service of god; as knowing no faith nor religion at all: dan oppressor of the poor, a persecutor of justice, a maintainer of the wicked, a sanctuary of Simony, an offscouring of vices, given wholly to sleep & to fleshly lusts, wholly contrary to the life and manners of Christ, a mirror of unhonest and infamous behaviour, & a deviser, a profound deviser of all villainies: in a word, so lewd and wretched a caitiff, that amongst them who knew his conversation he was called commonly *a devil incarnate. Yet these most holy Lords Boniface and John, are nothing in comparison of Alexander the sixth. For, although they both did get the triple crown corruptly: yet they conveyed it closely. Alexander ⟨p. 344⟩the sixth edid buy the voices of many Cardinals 1openly, partly 2with money, partly 3with promises of his offices and livings, chiefly the voice of Cardinal Ascanio: for which he did covenant to give the chiefest office of the Court of Rome, and Churches, and castles, and a palace full of moveable goods of marvellous great value. According unto which beginning he went forward: and proved (as it was thought he would) most pernicious to Italy and all Christendom. For though he excelled in sharpness of wit, in judgement, in eloquence, and was very careful and quick in matters of importance: yet he passed far these virtues with his vices, manners most beastly, not sincerity, not modesty, not truth, not faith, not religion, covetousness unsatiable, unmeasurable ambition, cruelty more then barbarous, & a most fervent desire of advancing (by whatsoever means) 4his children, of whom he had many, and amongst them 5one (that to execute lewd devises there might not want lewd instruments) no less abominable in any point then his father. Such a serpent held the seat of S. Peter for the space of ten years, until his own venom killed him.
He entred like a foxe, he raigned like a lyon, hee dyed like a dogge. An other like to him, but in an other kinde, is aIohn the three and twentéeth. bWho got (while he was Cardinall) a great deale of mony, and finding the Cardinals somewhat poore and néedy gaue them gentle rewardes. Whereupon they, seing him to be a liberall man, made him Pope for it. But that liberalitie was his chiefest vertue. For, he was cfitter for the campe, then for the Church; for profane thinges, then for the seruice of god; as knowing no faith nor religion at all: dan oppressour of ye poore, a persecuter of iustice, a mainteiner of the wicked, a sanctuarie of Simonie, an ofscouring of vices, giuen wholy to sleepe & to fleshly lustes, wholy contrarie to the life and maners of Christ, a mirror of vnhonest and infamous behauiour, & a deuiser, a profound deuiser of all vilanies: in a worde, so lewde and wretched a caitife, that amongst them who knew his conuersation he was called commonly *a diuell incarnate. Yet these most holie Lordes Boniface and Iohn, are nothing in comparison of Alexander the sixth. For, although they both did get the triple crowne corruptly: yet they conueyed it closely. Alexander ⟨p. 344⟩the sixth edid buy the voyces of many Cardinals 1openly, partly 2with money, partly 3with promises of his offices and liuinges, chiefely the voyce of Cardinall Ascanio: for which hee did couenant to giue the chiefest office of the Court of Rome, and Churches, and castles, and a palace full of moueable goods of marueilous great value. According vnto which beginning he went forwarde: and proued (as it was thought he would) most pernicious to Italie and all Christendome. For though hee excelled in sharpenes of wit, in iudgement, in eloquence, and was verie carefull and quicke in matters of importance: yet hee passed farre these vertues with his vices, maners most beastly, not sinceritie, not modestie, not truth, not faith, not religion, couetousnes vnsatiable, vnmeasurable ambition, cruelty more then barbarous, & a most feruent desire of aduancing (by whatsoeuer means)
aWhom Platina calleth the four• & twentieth: Onuphrius, the two and twentieth.
bPlatin. in Johann vige•im• quart.Platin. in Iohanne vige•im• quart.
3Con promesse de gl••usticii, & beneficii […], che•erano ••plissi•i.Con promesse de gl••usticii, & beneficii 〈…〉, che•erano ••plissi•i.
4That is to say, his bastards. Onuphrius in Alexandr. sext. Vola•erran. Anthropolog. l. 22.
5The Duke of Valence, Caesar Borgia, who first was Cardinal of Valence, and killed his elder brother the Duke of Candi• to have his •oome. Guicciard. lib. 3. Onuphr. in Alexand. sext.
For fwhen he & his son and heir, the Duke of Valence, had purposed to poison 6a Cardinal whom they were to sup with, (as commonly they used not only their enemies, but also their 7friends, yea nearest friends which had riches, that themselves might be enriched with their spoils:) the Duke had sent thither flagons of wine poisoned, by a servant whom he made not privy to the matter, vut willed him to give them no man. The Pope coming into the Cardinals before supper time, the weather being hot, he thirsty, called for wine. Now, because his own provision for supper was not come from the palace yet, the servant of the Duke gave him of that wine, which he thought his master had willed to be kept for himself as the best. Whereof while he was drinking, his son, the Duke came in: and thinking the wine to be his fathers own, he drank of it too. So the Pope was carried suddenly for dead home to the palace: and the next day he was carried dead (after the manner of the Popes) into S. Peters Church: black, swollen, and ugly: most manifest signs of poison. All Rome did run together to his dead carcass with wonderful joy: no man being able to satisfy his eyes with beholding a ser•ent dispatched and quelled, that had poisoned all the world with ⟨p. 341⟩his outrageous ambition, and pestilent treachery, and with all examples of horrible cruelty, of monstrous lust, and of incredible covetousness in selling without difference things holy and profane.
For fwhen he & his sonne and heire, the Duke of Ualence, had purposed to poyson 6a Cardinall whom they were to suppe with, (as commonly they vsed not onely their enimies, but also their 7friendes, yea neerest friendes which had riches, that themselues might bee enriched with their spoiles:) the Duke had sent thither flagons of wine poysoned, by a seruant whom hee made not priuie to the matter, vut willed him to giue them no man. The Pope comming into the Cardinals before supper time, the weather being hote, he thirstie, called for wine. Now, because his owne prouision for supper was not come from the palace yet, the seruant of the Duke gaue him of that wine, which he thought his mai•ter had willed to be kept for himselfe as the best. Whereof while he was drinking, his sonne, the Duke came in: and thinking the wine to bee his fathers owne, he dranke of it too. So the Pope was caried sodenly for dead home to the palace: and the next day hee was caried dead (after the maner of the Popes) into S. Peters Church: blacke, swollen, and ougly: most manifest signes of poyson. All Rome did runne togither to his dead carkasse with wonderfull ioy: no man being able to satisfie his eyes with beholding a ser•ent dispatched and quelled, that had poysoned all the world with ⟨p. 341⟩his outragious ambition, and pestilent treacherie, and with all examples of horrible crueltie, of monstrous lust, and of incredible couetousnesse in selling without difference things holy and profane.
fGuicciard. hist. Ital. lib. 6.
6The Cardinal of Corne•o.The Cardinall of Corne•o.
7Both other Courtiers and Cardinals: as the Cardinal of S. Angelo, the Cardinal of C•pua, & the Cardinal of ••odana.Both other Courtiers and Cardinals: as the Cardinall of S. Angelo, the Cardinall of C•pua, & the Cardinall of ••odana.
Hart. I skill not greatly of these stories: and it may •e doubted whether they be true. For men are prone commonly to think and speak evil: specially of such as are of high calling. Howbeit, if they be true: what is that to us? The Popes may err in manners, we grant, but not in doctrine. Neither if a man be naught in conversation, is therefore his religion naught. Judas an Apostle, Nicolas a Deacon; gthe one betrayed Christ, hthe other bred the Nicolaitans: both fa•tie in their lives; but the Christian faith, which they professed is not faulty. There be, that write also reports very shameful of your Doctors and Pastors: iof Calvin, that he committed a detestable sin; kof Bucer, that he denied Christ at his death. Which things are as odious, as those that you rehearse of this or that Pope. But if I should urge them, you would reject them as impertinent.
Hart. I skill not greatly of these stories: and it may •e douted whether they be true. For men are prone commonly to thinke and speake euill: specia•ly of such as are of high calling. Howbeit, if they be true: what is that to vs? The Popes may erre in maners, we graunt, but not in doctrine. Neither if a man be naught in conuersation, is therefore his religion naught. Iudas an Apostle, Nicolas a Deacon; gthe one betrayed Christ, hthe other bredde the Nicolaitans: both fa•tie in their liues; but the Christian faith, which they professed is not fautie. There be, that write also reportes verie shamefull of your Doctors and Pastors: iof Caluin, that he committed a detestable sinne; kof Bucer, that he denyed Christ at his death. Which thinges are as odious, as those that you reherse of this or that Pope. But if I should vrge them, you would reiect them as impertinent.
Rainoldes. In deed the truth of God doth not depend of mens manners. Many Jews, inferior in life to many Paynims: many Christians, to many Jews. Neither did I mention the Popes to that purpose. Howbeit, where you call the truth of their stories (which I touched) into doubt, and match them with reports that some men have written of Bucer and Calvin: it is the part of wise men, to weigh (as judges do in witnesses,) who writeth, what, of whom. The llaw alloweth not that a mans enemy shall be a witness against him. No enemy more deadly, then he, who beareth hatred for quarrel of religion: as mthe Samaritans to the Jews. Such hatred is borne to Bucer and Calvin, by Lindan and Bolsecke, the authors of those lewd reports. And a farther hatred by Bolsecke to Calvin: because nwhen he would have troubled Geneva with erroneous doctrine, Calvin did set himself openly against him; othe ministers of Geneva reproved him by word and writing; pthe magistrates of Geneva did banish him out of their city. qOn like cause whereof when he was driven twice out of the coasts of Berna too, and things fell not out to his mind amongst the Protestants: he revolted from them again to the ⟨p. 342⟩Papists, and returned to Popery as a dog to his vomit. Wherefore they do injury to Calvin and Bucer, who believe so heinous matters against them upon no better proof then Lindan's word, or Bolsecke's: chiefly, sith the knowledge of many, rwho were present at the death of Bucer, of infinite who either lived with Calvin, or read his godly writings, wherein he liveth still, may clear them from the cankered spite of one enemy in all indifferent judges eyes. But the things which I did mention of your Popes are witnessed not by enemies, but by friends; not one, but many; most like to know the truth, and to report thereof no worse, then they knew. For stories do consent that Boniface the eighth was such *a three-formed beast, as I declared. The Council of Constance examined and found John the three and twentieth to be a sink of sins, a Devil in carnate, as they called him. Of Alexander the sixth I said not a word more then is in Guicciardin, a gentleman, who lived at the same time and wrote the story of it: an Italian by nation, sby religion a Papist, tthe Popes lieutenant by his office, a faithful captain to his State, ua bitter enemy to the Lutherans.
Rainoldes. In déede the truth of God doth not depend of mens maners. Many Iewes, inferiour in life to many Paynims: many Christians, to many Iewes. Neither did I mention the Popes to that purpose. Howbeit, where you call the truth of their stories (which I touched) into doute, and match them with reportes that some men haue writen of Bucer and Caluin: it is the part of wise men, to weigh (as iudges doo in witnesses,) who writeth, what, of whom. The llaw alloweth not that a mans enimie shall be a witnesse against him. No enimie more deadly, then he, who beareth hatred for quarrell of religion: as mthe Samaritans to the Iewes. Such hatred is borne to Bucer and Caluin, by Lindan and Bolsecke, the autours of those lewde reportes. And a farther hatred by Bolsecke to Caluin: because nwhen he would haue troubled Geneua with erroneous doctrine, Caluin did set himselfe openly against him; othe ministers of Geneua reproued him by word and writing; pthe magistrates of Geneua did banish him out of their citie. qOn like cause whereof when hee was driuen twise out of the coastes of Berna too, and thinges fell not out to his minde amongst the Protestants: he reuolted from them againe to the ⟨p. 342⟩Papistes, and returned to Poperie as a dogge to his vomit. Wherefore they doo iniurie to Caluin and Bucer, who beléeue so heinous matters against them vpon no better proofe then Lindans word, or Bolseckes: chiefely, sith the knowledge of many, rwho were present at the death of Bucer, of infinite who either liued with Caluin, or reade his godly writings, wherein hee liueth still, may cléere them from the cankred spite of one enimie in all indifferent iudges eyes. But the thinges which I did mention of your Popes are witnessed not by enimies, but by fréendes; not one, but manie; most like to know the truth, and to report thereof no worse, then they knew. For stories do consent that Boniface the eighth was such *a threeformed beast, as I declared. The Councell of Constance examined and found Iohn the three and twentéeth to be a sinke of sinnes, a Diuell in carnate, as they called him. Of Alexander the sixth I said not a word more then is in Guicciardin, a gentleman, who liued at the same time and wrote the storie of it: an Italian by nation,
lL. Testium fides. Dig. l. Siqui• testibus. Cod. tit. de testibus. 3. q. 5. c. Accusatores, & testes.
nIn the year of Christ 1551. as it appeareth by the acts in Calvin and Beza. Bolsecke saith it was 1552. of forgetfulness (it seemeth) […] the printers error. Praefat. in vit. Calvin.In the yeare of Christ 1551. as it appeareth by the actes in Caluin and Beza. Bolsecke saith it was 1552. of forgetfulnes (it seemeth) 〈…〉 the printers errour. Praefat. in vit. Caluin.
oEpist. ad ministros Hel•et.
pCalvin. in epist ad ministr. Basil.Caluin. in epist ad ministr. Basil.
qTheod. Bez. in vita Calvin.Theod. Bez. in vita Caluin.
And Guicciardin's report of him is confirmed by two Italians mo, xJovius, and yOnuphrius. Who, though in certain of the Popes lives, they do blanch their histories, of love and devotion; yet they consent with Guicciardin in Alexander the sixth: saving that, where Guicciardin saith he would have poisoned one Cardinal at his last supper, they say that he intended to have poisoned sundry. Now these were sworn friends to them, of whom they wrote: they were not Lindans, and Bolseckes. They sought not of malice what they might write against them: but they wrote the truth by zthe law of history. They did not misreport them to revenge themselves. 1Calvin had touched Bolsecke: the Popes had not so them. They were not requested and sued to by Protestants to set forth their works in print against the Popes: as Bolsecke was by Papists (2 his Lords and friends,) against Calvin. If I had gone about to touch in such sort your Popes with odious matters: I could have made mention of a young stripling acreated Bishop by a Pope; and an other, bwhom a Pope made his first Cardinal; and cLucretia, a Popes daughter, he liker to Tarquinius, then she to Lucretia; and dAloisius, ⟨p. 343⟩a Popes son, worthy of his father; with eother villainies more notorious; all proved by more credible witnesses then Bolsecke's. But I neither ripped up all that I might, (many things they have done, which a shamefa•t adversary would be loth to open:) neither did I speak of any thing but that, which your selves do, or must, confess of necessity. And therefore when I spake of faithless wicked Popes▪ I said not a word either of fJoan, the whore; or of gHildebrand, the traitor: because you take exception, hfor Hildebrand, that they who write much evil of him did it to please his enemy; for iJoan, that she was harlot to Pope John the twelfth, so that John and Joan were not two Popes, but one. As for that you say that if all the stories were true, they are impertinent, sith you defend the doctrine of Popes and not their manners▪ that answer other where is fit, and to purpose; but here it cometh out of season. For, the point in question touching the Popes was, whether any of them had been thieves & robbers. You granted that about a fifty of them were so; and monsters too, not only thieves: but the fault thereof you said was in the Emperors, who intruded them.
And Guicciardins report of him is confirmed by two Italians mo, xIouius, and yOnuphrius. Who, though in certaine of the Popes liues, they doo blanch their histories, of loue and deuotion; yet they consent with Guicciardin in Alexander the sixth: sauing that, where Guicciardin saith he would haue poysoned one Cardinall at his last supper, they say that he intended to haue poysoned sundry. Now these were sworne fréends to them, of whom they wrote: they were not Lindans, and Bolseckes. They sought not of malice what they might write against them: but they wrote the truth by zthe law of historie. They did not misreport them to reuenge themselues. 1Caluin had touched Bolsecke: the Popes had not so them. They were not requested and sued to by Protestants to set forth their workes in print against the Popes: as Bolsecke was by Papistes (2 his Lordes and frendes,) against Caluin. If I had gone about to touch in such sort your Popes with odious matters: I could haue made mention of a young stripling acreated Bishop by a Pope; and an other, bwhom a Pope made his first Cardinall; and cLucretia, a Popes daughter, he liker to Tarquinius, then she to Lucretia; and dAloisius, ⟨p. 343⟩a Popes sonne, worthy of his father; with eother vilanies more notorious; all proued by more credible witnesses then Bolseckes. But I neither ripped vp all that I might, (many things they haue done, which a shamefa•t aduersarie would be loth to open:) neither did I speake of any thing but that, which your selues doo, or must, confesse of necessitie. And therefore when I spake of faithlesse wicked Popes▪ I said not a word either of
xHistor. sui •emp. lib. 1. & 8. De vita Leon decim. lib. 1. & vita Pomp. Colui••.
yIn vita Alexand. sext. append. Platin.
zNequid falsi dicere aud eat, ne quid veri non audeat. Cic. de Orat. l. 1.
1In his letters written to the Ministers of Basil 1552. set forth in print 1575. Bolsecke wrote his preface 1577. printed the book 1580.In his letters writen to the Ministers of Basil 1552. set forth in print 1575. Bolsecke wrote his preface 1577. printed the booke 1580.
2A perquám multis Dominis amicis que •eis rogatus & sollicitatus. Bol•ec. in epist. dedicator. ad archiepiscopum •ngdunensem.
aProductus a Paulo tertio ex arcanis cubiculi •ord•ous. Alciat. in epist. ad Jovium.Productus a Paulo tertio ex arcanis cubiculi •ord•ous. Alciat. in epist. ad Iouium.
cLucretia nomine, sed re Thais: Alexandri filia, spo•s•▪ […]. Sannazar, in Epigram.Lucretia nomine, sed re Thais: Alexandri filia, spo•s• . Sannazar, in Epigram.
I replied, that since the Cardinals did choose them, there have been as monstrous of them as were before, and that have come in as unlawfully. For proof hereof I named Boniface the eighth, John the three and twentieth, and Alexander the sixth: who were Popes then when the election by Cardinals was grown to the perfectest, the first a thirteen hundred, the next a fourteen hundred, the last a fifteen hundred years after Christ. That these were monstrous, their whole lives do show: that they came in unlawfully, their entrances. That they were as monstrous, and came in as unlawfully, as the fifty Popes: I will not prove, unless you force me; for comparisons are odious. And here I must add, least I be accused as partial to the Emperors, that although I clear them from intruding those Popes, yet I clear them not from all fault therein. For it was a fault in them, that they suffered such villains to enjoy the room: as it is well noted by kyour own historian, who saith, that great licentiousness did bring forth those monsters, 1no Prince then repressing the wicked deeds of men. Of the which fault the later Emperors also (I speak it with reverence, as of Princes, not of Tyrants,) have been, and do continue guilty. But to conclude the point, ⟨p. 344⟩if he be a thief & a robber, who entereth in unlawfully into the sheepfold; then many of your Popes have been thieves and robbers. Yet take I not advantage of that which you have said about the fifty Popes. For so, not only they, but all the rest might prove thieves.
I replied, that since the Cardinals did choose them, there haue béene as monstrous of them as were before, and that haue come in as vnlawfully. For proofe hereof I named Boniface the eighth, Iohn the three and twentéeth, and Alexander the sixth: who were Popes then when the election by Cardinals was growne to the perfitest, the first a thirtéene hundred, the next a fouretéene hundred, the last a fiftéene hundred yeares after Christ. That these were monstrous, their whole liues do shew: that they came in vnlawfully, their entrances. That they were as monstrous, and came in as vnlawfully, as the fiftie Popes: I will not proue, vnlesse you force me; for comparisons are odious. And here I must adde, least I be accused as partial to the Emperors, that although I cléere them from intruding those Popes, yet I cléere them not from all fault therein. For it was a fault in them, that they suffered such vilaines to enioy the roome: as it is well noted by kyour own historian, who saith, that great licentiousnes did bring forth those monsters, 1no Prince then repressing the wicked deeeds of men. Of the which fault the later Emperours also (I speake it with reuerence, as of Princes, not of Tyrants,) haue béene, and do continue guiltie. But to conclude the point, ⟨p. 344⟩if he be a theefe & a robber, who entreth in vnlawfully into the shéepefolde; then many of your Popes haue béene theeues and robbers. Yet take I not aduantage of that which you haue said about the fiftie Popes. For so, not onely they, but all the rest might proue theeues.
Hart. Nay you were best to say that the Saints them selves, Martyrs, and Confessors, and Doctors, were thieves. For lthe ancient Popes were all Saints, but one, from Peter to Honorius, until above six hundred years after Christ.
Hart. Nay you were best to say that the Saints them selues, Martyrs, and Confessours, and Doctors, were theeues. For lthe auncient Popes were all Saintes, but one, from Peter to Honorius, vntill aboue sixe hundred yeares after Christ.
lAs Bristow saith in the Table of Popes in his Demands.As Bristow saith in ye Table of Popes in his Demaunds.
Rainoldes. Were they so? What mean you then to indict them of so great a crime? Where was your Genebrards wit, when he wrote of the fifty Popes? For if they did enter in 2not by the door, but by a postern gate, because when they were chosen they would not take the Popedom until the Emperor had confirmed them: how may the Saints, as mGregory namely, be excused, who entered in the same way? And if these were thieves, because they entered in by the Emperors consent: what were their predecessors, nwho entered in by the peoples? For the Emperor Frederick had reason when ohe said, that *himself, as king, ought to be chief in choosing the Bishop of his own city. Wherefore if the people had voices in the choice of him: why not the German Emperor? pwho then was king of Rome, though now the Pope be. And if they were thieves too, because the people chose them, and not the clergy only: what have the Popes been these four hundred years, 7whom neither the Emperor, nor people, nor clergy, but only a few Cardinals have chosen? See you not how all the Popes are brought in danger by you, to be thieves? But (as I said) I mean not to take this advantage. It sufficeth me, first, that many of them purchased the Popedom with bribery and corruption, as I have showed by their stories: next, that all such purchasers are (by their own law) rnot Apostolical, but Apostatical, that is to say, revolters from the faith of Christ, not successors of the Apostles. For hereof it followeth that many, not only Antipopes, but Popes, and they elected, not intruded, have been thieves and robbers, by your own definition. Wherefore, not all Popes are pastors, or hirelings. And so the demonstration by which you promised to prove out of the scripture, that Popes cannot err in doctrine, is fallen.
Rainoldes. Were they so? What meane you then to endite them of so great a crime? Where was your Genebrards wit, when he wrote of the fiftie Popes? For if they did enter in 2not by the dore, but by a posterne gate, because when they were chosen they would not take the Popedom vntil the Emperour had confirmed them: how may ye Saints, as mGregorie namely, be excused, who entred in the same way? And if these were theeues, because they entred in by the Emperours consent: what were their predecessors, nwho entred in by the peoples? For the Emperour Friderike had reason when ohe saide, that *himselfe, as king, ought to be chiefe in choosing the Bishop of his owne citie. Wherefore if the people had voices in the choise of him: why not the German Emperour? pwho then was king of Rome, though now the Pope be. And if they were theeues too, because the people chose them, and not the clergie onely: what haue ye Popes bene these four hundred yeares, 7whom neither the Emperour, nor people, nor clergie, but onely a few Cardinals haue chosen? See you not how al the Popes are brought in danger by you, to be théeues? But (as I saide) I meane not to take this aduantage. It sufficeth me, first, that many of them purchased the Popedome with bribery and corruption, as I haue shewed by their stories: next, that all such purchasers are (by their owne law) rnot Apostolicall, but Apostaticall, that is to say, revolters from the faith of Christ, not successors of the Apostles. For hereof it foloweth that many, not onely Antipopes, but Popes, and they elected, not intruded, haue béene theeues and robbers, by your own definition. Wherefore, not all Popes are pastors, or hirelinges. And so the demonstration by which you promised to proue out of the scripture, that Popes cannot erre in doctrine, is fallen.
2Non per ostium, sed per posti•um: Genebrard. Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 10.
mJo. Dia•on. •n vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platin. in Gregor. Sigon. de regno Ital. l. 1.Io. Dia•on. •n vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platin. in Gregor. Sigon. de regno Ital. l. 1.
nEuseb. hist. eccles. l. 6. c. 21. Cyprian. ep 52.
oOtho Frising. de rebus gest. Friderici Imper. l. 1. c. 1.
*Qui tanquam •ex, & patricius, primus in electione suae urbis episcopi esse deberet.Qui tanquam •ex, & patricius, primus in electione suae vrbis episcopi esse deberet.
pSigon. de regn. Ital. l. 4. & 7.
7Genebr. Chronogr. l. 4. Plat. & Onuphr. de •itis Pontificā.Genebr. Chronogr. l. 4. Plat. & Onuphr. de •itis Pontificā.
rDist. 79. c. Siquis pecunia. Non Apostolicus, sed apostaticus habeatur. which decree was made by Pope Nicolas the second in a Councell ▪ held at Rome.
Hart. But as D. sStapleton doth define a thief out of S. Cyprian's words: no Pope can be a thief. For he is a thief, who succeeding no man, is ordained of himself. Now, it is manifest that the Popes, all, both have succeeded others, and were ordained by others. Yet, though some of them were thieves, and robbers, in D. Genebrards sense: they could not err in doctrine. Such is the force of succession.
Hart. But as D. sStapleton doth define a theefe out of S. Cyprians wordes: no Pope can be a theefe. For he is a theefe, who succeeding no man, is ordeined of himselfe. Now, it is manifest that the Popes, all, both haue succéeded others, and were ordeined by others. Yet, though some of them were theeues, and robbers, in D. Genebrards sense: they could not erre in doctrine. Such is the force of succession.
Rainoldes. Why? Is the force, I say not of succession, but of lawful succession, such, that they, who have it, can not err in doctrine? May not true Bishops and pastors teach heresy, as 1Arius, 2Nestorius, and 3Samosatenus did?
Rainoldes. Why? Is the force, I say not of succession, but of lawfull succession, such, that they, who haue it, can not erre in doctrine? May not true Bishops and pastors teach heresie, as 1Arius, 2Nestorius, and 3Samosatenus did?
1Of Alexandria. Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 2.
2Of Constantinople. Socrat. l. 7. c. 29. & 32.
3Of Antioch. Euseb. l. 7. c. ••.Of Antioche. Euseb. l. 7. c. ••.
Rainoldes. Then the Popes succession doth not warrant them but that they may be wolves. Which is as much to my purpose, as if you said, thieves, and robbers. And in very truth, unless D. Stapleton had slubbered up that place of scripture (in S. John) to make it serve for his succession: it would be apparent that Christ meant the same by thieves and robbers, that you by wolves. For when the Pharisees had tspoken much against him, and sought by upersuasion and xexcommunication to lead away the people: he (to make the faithful wise against their practises) ydeclareth both his office and person in a parable, wherein he compareth Gods chosen to sheep, and him self to a shepherd. And by that occasion he advertiseth them of three sorts of teachers, which meddle with the flock of God: the first, a shepherd; the second, a hireling; the third, a thief and a robber. zA shepherd entereth in by the door into the sheepfold, and careth for the sheep so, that when the wolf cometh, he standeth in their defence, adventuring his life for them. aA hireling entereth in, as the shepherd doth, but careth not for the sheep: and therefore in the time of danger he fleeth, and leaveth them to be scattered. bA thief and a robber neither entereth in by the door, as they: and he cometh to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. These three sorts of teachers are mentioned by Christ, perhaps to touch the Pharisees by the way covertly, but manifestly to clear himself, whom they reproved as a false teacher, that is (in this similitude,) as a thief & a robber. Which slander to confute, he showeth himself to be• a shepherd, ⟨p. 346⟩neither a shepherd hireling, but a good shepherd, that is, a true and godly teacher. And to this end he noteth two differences between a shepherd and a thief: the one, in their doctrine; the other, in their end. In their doctrine; cthat a thief entereth not in by the door, the lawful way: but the shepherd entereth in by the door, that is, he preacheth Christ. For dChrist is the door: and by him the shepherd leadeth his sheep in, and out, to feed them and save them. In their end, ethat a thief cometh to steal, kill, destroy, that is, to spoil them of their life, of life spiritual and eternal: but the shepherd cometh that they may have life, and have it in abundance.
Rainoldes. Then the Popes succession doth not warrant them but that they may be woolues. Which is as much to my purpose, as if you said, theeues, and robbers. And in very truth, vnlesse D. Stapleton had slubbered vp that place of scripture (in S. Iohn) to make it serue for his succession: it would be apparant that Christ meant the same by theeues and robbers, that you by woolues. For when the Pharises had tspoken much against him, and sought by uperswasion and xexcommunication to leade away the people: he (to make the faithful wise against their practises) ydeclareth both his office and person in a parable, wherein he compareth Gods chosen to sheepe, and him selfe to a shepheard. And by that occasion he aduertiseth them of three sortes of teachers, which meddle with the flocke of God: the first, a shepheard; the second, a hireling; the third, a theefe and a robber. zA shepheard entreth in by the doore into the sheepefold, and careth for the shéepe so, that when the woolfe cometh, he standeth in their defense, aduenturing his life for them. aA hireling entreth in, as the shepheard doth, but careth not for the sheepe: and therefore in the time of danger he fleeth, and leaueth them to be scattered. bA theefe and a robber neither entreth in by the dore, as they: and he cometh to steale, and to kill, and to destroy. These three sortes of teachers are mentioned by Christ, perhaps to touch the Pharises by the way couertly, but manifestly to cléere himselfe, whom they reproued as a false teacher, that is (in this similitude,) as a theefe & a robber. Which s•launder to confute, he sheweth himselfe to be• a shepheard, ⟨p. 346⟩neither a shepeheard hireling, but a good shepeheard, that is, a true and godly teacher. And to this end he noteth two differences betweene a shepeheard and a theefe: the one, in their doctrine; the other, in their ende. In their doctrine; c
the nine and twentieth: which lasted by the space of fiftie yeares together, first, with two Popes at once; then, with three. And, if the Emperour Sigismund had not béene,
the Reuelation) the scarlet coloured beast hath heads. But to leaue the Emperours, and proue the point in question, that since the Popes were chosen onely by the Cardinals there haue béene as monstrous Popes as were before, and haue come in as vnlawfully: there are so many examples, that it is hard to make choise, or know where to beginne amongst them. Let him be the first, who compiled
He refused to accept of Albert chosen Emperour by the Princes of Germany, because they made choise without his authoritie, who had (he said him selfe) the right ofboth swordes.
and graunted to Albert that he should be Emperour, on condition that he would take the realme of Fraunce also, and thrust the lawfull king out of it. And more he would haue done of such Papall affaires,
Pe•t•••bant su•• ca••llae, that is, to the C••rch of Romes right, as afterwarde the 〈…〉 expounded it.
sAl•e••. Kr•tz. Saxon l. 8 c. 3•.
tG•gian. hi••. Francor. lib. 7.
u•al•i•gam in Edw•r. prim.
xKran•z. Saxon l. 8. c. 3•. & 37. Metrop. l. 8. c. 48.
yTritem. in Chron. Monast. Hi••aug. Platin. in Bonifac. octa.
zWalsingham in Edward. prim. Marius de schism. & concil. part. 2. c. 18. Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 4.Walsingam in Edward. prim. Marius de schism. & concil. part. 2. c. 18. Genebrard. Chronogr. lib. 4.
one (that to execute lewde deuises there might not want lewde instruments) no lesse abhominable in any point then his father. Such a serpent held the seate of S. Peter for the space of ten yeares, vntill his owne venoome killed him.
The Duke of Valence, Caesar Borgia, who first was Cardinall of Valence, and killed his elder brother the Duke of Candi• to haue his •oome. Guicciard. lib. 3. Onuphr. in Alexand. sext.
Ioane, that shee was harlot to Pope Iohn the twelfth, so that Iohn and Ioane were not two Popes, but one. As for that you say that if all the stories were true, they are impertinent, sith you defend the doctrine of Popes and not their maners▪ that answere other where is fit, and to purpose; but here it cometh out of season. For, the point in question touching the Popes was, whether any of them had bene theeues & robbers. You graunted that about a fifty of them were so; and monsters too, not onely theeues: but the fault thereof you said was in the Emperours, who intruded them.
▪
〈…〉
dFilius Pauli tertii, qui Cosmum Cherium per vim. Sleidan. lib. 19.
eHonoranda Diu•m Ganymedibus aedes. Baptist. Mant. de calamit. temp. l. 3.
fCalled John the eighth. Platina.Called Iohn the eighth. Platina.
gCalled Gregory the seventh. Benn• Card. de vita Hiltebrandi.Called Gregory the seuenth. Benn• Card. de vita Hiltebrandi.
hOnuphr. annot. in Plot. Gregor. •ept. Harding in the preface of his De•ect.Onuphr. annot. in Plat. Gregor. •ept. Harding in the preface of his De•ect.
iOnuphr. annot. in Plot. Joan. octa•. ex. Luitprand. Ticin. l. 6. c. 6. & 7.Onuphr. annot. in Plat. Ioan. octa•. ex. Luitprand. Ticin. l. 6. c. 6. & 7.
that a theefe entreth not in by the doore, the lawfull way: but the shepeheard entreth in by the doore, that is, he preacheth Christ. For
that a theefe commeth to steale, kill, destroy, that is, to spoile them of their life, of life spirituall and eternall: but the shepeheard cometh that they may haue life, and haue it in aboundance.
