The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. You mean them perhaps, of whom you showed pbefore, that they were monstrous men, or rather beasts and monsters: who did get the Popedom (I grant) the most of them by bribery and evil means. But the fault both of that and of their corrupt lives is to be laid rather on the German Emperors, then on the See of Rome. For (as D. qGenebrard hath noted very well) the Popes, for the space almost of seven score ⟨p. 330⟩years and ten, from John the eight to Leo the ninth, 1about a fifty Popes did revolt wholly from the virtue of their ancestors, and were 2Apostatical rather then Apostolical. Of this so great wickedness the German Emperors are guilty: who did oppress the Church so, that (orderly elections being set apart) they appointed Popes at their lust, and 3often times for money and covenants; and the Pope elected would not take the Popedom before the Emperor had confirmed him. Yea some did get into the see 4by force or bribery. Wherefore it is no marvel, if they were monstrous and so many in so few years, and dyed so quickly, sith that they entered in, 5not by the door, but by a postern gate. For they were not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but 6intruded by the Emperors. Only five amongst so great a number of Popes (and they but meanly) are praised.
Hart. You meane them perhaps, of whom you shewed pbefore, that they were monstrous men, or rather beastes and monsters: who did get the Popedome (I graunt) the most of them by briberie and euill meanes. But the fault both of that and of their corrupt liues is to be laid rather on the German Emperours, then on ye Sée of Rome. For (as D.
Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall. Of this so great wickednes the German Emperours are guiltie: who did oppresse the Church so, that (orderly elections being set apart) they appointed Popes at their lust, and
often times for money and couenantes; and the Pope elected would not take the Popedome before the Emperour had confirmed him. Yea some did get into the see
Rainoldes. This is well and wisely noted by your Genebrard. Many Popes were 7monstrous: but the fault thereof was in the German Emperors. This will stop the mouths of the German heretics, who do praise those Emperors. But here you grant withal, that fifty Popes or there about did not enter in by the door. Wherein you grant (by consequent) that they were thieves and robbers. You said that I spake untruly when I said so. Is it become a truth now?
Rainoldes. This is well and wisely noted by your Genebrard. Many Popes were 7monstrous: but the faute thereof was in the German Emperours. This will stop the mouthes of the German heretikes, who doo prayse those Emperours. But here you graunt withall, that fiftie Popes or there about did not enter in by the doore. Wherein you graunt (by consequent) that they were theeues and robbers. You saide that I spake vntruly when I saide so. Is it become a truth now?
Hart. Because they kept the room, and were called so. The name of Popes is given them by D. Genebrard too: but he accounteth them usurpers, and so doth mean it improperly. For properly they only are Popes, who have the Popedom by lawful succession. But these men had it not by lawful succession. Therefore they were not Popes, as we must speak of Popes now. And this is declared plainly by D. 1Genebrard: who having said, that the Popes of that time were 8monsters, as intruded rather by the Emperors then elected; doth add, these are the fruits of the Church oppressed by tyrants, and of elections taken from it. Yea, 9the lawful succession ⟨p. 331⟩was here disordered also: as in *the Synagogue of old time under the Antiochi, a little before the Maccabees. This blemish let the writers of the Centuries acknowledge to have sprung from the German Emperors, whom they praise so greatly. For they had taken the right of the Church to themselves, and did provide for it by the right of Herod. Thus far D. Genebrard. Whereby you may see that although he grant they were thieves and robbers, yet he denieth they were Popes: for they did not succeed lawfully.
Hart. Because they kept the roome, and were called so. The name of Popes is giuen them by D. Genebrard too: but hée accounteth them vsurpers, and so doth meane it improperly. For properly they onely are Popes, who haue the Popedome by lawfull succession. But these men had it not by lawfull succession. Therefore they were not Popes, as we must speake of Popes now. And this is declared plainely by D. 1Genebrard: who hauing saide, that the Popes of that time were 8monsters, as intruded rather by the Emperours then elected; doth adde, these are the fruites of the Church oppressed by tyrants, and of elections taken from it. Yea, 9the lawfull succession ⟨p. 331⟩was here disordered also: as in *the Synagogue of olde time vnder the Antiochi, a litle before the Machabes. This blemish let the writers of the Centuries acknowledge to haue sproong from the German Emperours, whom they praise so greatly. For they had taken the right of the Church to themselues, and did prouide for it by the right of Herode. Thus farre D. Genebrard. Wherby you may sée that although he graunt they were theeues and robbers, yet he denyeth they were Popes: for they did not succéede lawfully.
1Chronog. lib. 4. saeculo 11.
8Monstra, ut intrusi potius quám electi.Monstra, vt intrusi potius quám electi.
Rainoldes. Genebrard was blinded with spite against the Centuries, and Emperors of Germany, when he sewed these fig-leaves to cover the nakedness of his cause. For the fifty Popes (let me call them so, that my speech may be the plainer,) the fifty Popes, whom you grant to have been thieves and robbers, because they were usurpers rather, then successors, as being not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but intruded by the Emperors: the fifty Popes began in the year of Christ ueight hundred eighty & four, when John the eighth dyed; and ended in the year a thousand forty and eight, when Leo the ninth succeeded. Now the Emperors had no more so do in the Popes election, for the later half of that time; then they had before, when Popes were good, (in Genebrards ei•,) and their succession lawful. And for the former half thereof; they had less. For, about the year five hundred & fifty, when Justinian the Emperor had recovered Italy from the Goths, his enemies, who long had reigned there: xit was provided, that none should be ordained Pope (though elected) before that his election were confirmed by the Emperor. Which order was taken for the peace & safety both of the country & the State: least, the Emperors being absent out of Italy, abiding at Constantinople, the Pope (whose authority was grown to be great) if he should mislike the State, or be factious, might entice both Rome and Italy to revolt from them to their enemies, as Justinian was persuaded that Pope Siluerius sought to do. This order continued until the year six hundred eighty and six: about the which time ythe Emperor released the Pope from that bond. But afterward the Pope did bind himself again unto it. For in the year seven hundred seventy and three, zPope Adrian the first gave to Charles the great, the 1right and authority ⟨p. 332⟩of choosing the Pope and ordering the See of Rome: and he gave it with consent of a Council of Bishops, not of his own fancy. The decree of which Council did stand in strength and virtue above a hundred years, until the time of the fifty Popes. For in the year eight hundred eighty and five, aPope Adrian the third made a contrary decree: to wit, that 2in creating of Popes they should not wait for the consent of the Emperor, but the voices of the clergy and people should be free.
Rainoldes. Genebrard was blinded with spite against the Centuries, and Emperours of Germany, when hee sewed these figge-leaues to couer the nakednes of his cause. For the fiftie Popes (let me call them so, that my spéeche may be the plainer,) the fifty Popes, whom you graunt to haue bene theeues and robbers, because they were vsurpers rather, then successours, as being not chosen after the maner of their auncestors, but intruded by the Emperours: the fiftie Popes began in the yeare of Christ ueight hundred eightie & foure, when Iohn the eighth dyed; and ended in the yeare a thousand fourtie and eight, when Leo the ninth succéeded. Now the Emperours had no more so doo in the Popes election, for the later halfe of that time; then they had before, when Popes were good, (in Genebrards ei•,) and their succession lawful. And for the former halfe thereof; they had lesse. For, about the yeare fiue hundred & fifty, when Iustinian the Emperour had recouered Italie from the Gothes, his enimies, who long had raigned there: xit was prouided, yt none should be ordained Pope (though elected) before that his election were confirmed by the Emperour. Which order was taken for ye peace & safetie both of the countrie & the State: least, the Emperours being absent out of Italie, abiding at Constantinople, the Pope (whose autoritie was growen to be great) if he should mislike the State, or be factious, might entise both Rome and Italie to reuolt from them to their enimies, as Iustinian was perswaded that Pope Siluerius sought to doo. This order continued vntill the yeare sixe hundred eightie and sixe: about the which time ythe Emperour released the Pope from that bond. But afterwarde the Pope did binde himselfe againe vnto it. For in the yeare seuen hundred seuentie and thrée, zPope Adrian the first gaue to Charles the greate, the 1right and autoritie ⟨p. 332⟩of choosing the Pope and ordering the Sée of Rome: and he gaue it with consent of a Councell of Bishops, not of his owne fansie. The decreee of which Councell did stand in strength and vertue aboue a hundred yeares, vntill the time of the fiftie Popes. For in the yeare eight hundred eightie and fiue, a
uAfter Genebrards account. Onuphrus and Platina differ from it somewhat in a few years. But that altereth not the point.After Genebrards account. Onuphrus and Platina differ from it somewhat in a few yeares. But that altereth not the point.
xAnast. biblioth. in vit. Vigilij, Pelagij, Vitaliani, Agathonis. Gregor. in Regist. lib. 1. ep. 4. Joh. Diac. in vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platina in Pelagio second. Dist. •3. c. Aga•ho.Anast. biblioth. in vit. Vigilij, Pelagij, Vitaliani, Agathonis. Gregor. in Regist. lib. 1. ep. 4. Ioh. Diac. in vit. Gregor. l. 1. c. 40. Platina in Pelagio secund. Dist. •3. c. Aga•ho.
yAnastas. in vita Benedicti second.Anastas. in vita Benedicti secund.
zSigibert. in Chronic. Dist. 63. c. Adrianus. 2
1Jus & potestatem eligendi pontificem, & ordinandi Apostolicam sede•.Ius & potestatem eligendi pontificem, & ordinandi Apostolicam sede•.
aPla•ina in Adrian. tert. Sigon. de regn. Ital. l. 5. & 7.
2Ne in creando pontifice Imperatoris autoritas expectaretur. utque libera essent cleri & populi suffragia.Ne in creando pontifice Imperatoris autoritas expectaretur. vtque libera essent cleri & populi suffragia.
Neither had any Emperor that prerogative after, till the year nine hundred sixty and three, when it was restored again unto Otho. Now in the mean time the monsters came in, bFormosus, cBoniface, dStephen, eRomanus, fTheodore, gJohn the ninth, hChristopher, iSergius, and finally that monster of monsters kJohn the twelfth. Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperor. And yet (to see the spirit of a Popish zeal how it wil• besot men,) lGenebrard, having written that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the body of Formosus to be digged out of his grave and beheaded, doth add this note upon it: No marvel if these Popes were monstrous; for they were not chosen after the manner of their ancestors, but intruded by the Emperors. Whereas myour Chronicles show that Sergius conspiring against his predecessor Christopher (as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo) did force him to renounce the Popedom on one day, & himself *the next day did stall himself in it. So that not as much as the presence of the Emperors ambassadors was stayed for at his consecration, (which yet nby order should have been, to hinder violence and offences:) mu•h less was he intruded (as Genebrard saith) by the Emperor. But when John the twelfth had gotten the room, then the which there could not a wretcheder thing possess it, unless the devil himself should hold it in person: othe Emperor Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order, caused the Bishops of Italy with others, and the Roman clergy, to be assembled in a Council. Wherein after that they had deposed John, and chosen Leo the eighth, all, with one consent: pPope Leo, with the whole clergy, and people of Rome, did grant unto Otho and his successors for ever, 3the power of choosing the Pope. The cause which moved him to stablish this ⟨p. 333⟩order, was, that no such monsters might sit in Peters seat as there had before. qFor, he considered, that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperors, and left it to the people and clergy: the foul and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts, the city with tumults, and the elections with villainy. He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way.
Neither had any Emperour that prerogatiue after, till the yeare nine hundred sixtie and thrée, when it was restored againe vnto Otho. Now in the meane time the monsters came in, bFormosus, cBoniface, dStephen, eRomanus, fTheodore, gIohn the ninth, hChristopher, iSergius, and finally that monster of monsters kIohn the twelfth. Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperour. And yet (to sée the spirite of a Popish zeale how it wil• besotte men,) lGenebrard, hauing writen that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the bodie of Formosus to be digged out of his graue and beheaded, doth adde this note vpon it: No maruell if these Popes were monstrous; for they were not chosen after the maner of their ancestors, but intruded by the Emperours. Whereas myour Chronicles shew that Sergius conspiring against his predecessour Christopher (as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo) did force him to renounce the Popedome on one day, & himselfe *the next day did stall him•elfe in it. So that not asmuch as the presence of the Emperours embassadours was stayed for at his consecration, (which yet nby order should haue béene, to hinder violence and offenses:) mu•h lesse was he intruded (as Genebrard saith) by the Emperour. But when Iohn the twelfth had gotten the roome, then the which there could not a wretcheder thing possesse it, vnlesse the diuell himselfe should hold it in person:
bIn the year of Christ 892.In the yeare of Christ 892.
c898.
d898.
e899.
f899.
g899.
h•04.
i905.
k955.
lChronog. lib. 4. saeculo 10.
mOnuph. in Chron. Rom. Pont. Sigon. de •egno Ital. lib. 6.
*Post•idi•.
nConcil. Raven. in the yere 898. Sigon de reg. It. lib. 6.Concil. Rauen. in the yere 898. Sigon de reg. It. lib. 6.
He thought no bridle fitter, then that the decree of Adrian the first, who gave the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperor, should be revived. And so he proposed the matter to the Council: and the Council agreed upon it. Wherefore the former half of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperors. If the later were: whose was the fault? the Emperors? or the Popes and Councils, who gave the Emperor that right? But in deed they were not. For, ralthough the Romans had sworn to Otho that they would never choose Pope without his consent, and his sons: yet sby and by they turned to their old bent, like a deceitful bow. Howbeit in his days they could not have their purpose. For when they cast out Leo, and brought in John again, and chose one after him too: 1Otho by force of arms made them repent it, and redressed it. But in 2his sons days they went thorough with it. 3His nephew had a stroke in the choice of one or two: but they were of the better sort. It was the Romans choice that thrust the monsters in. Of whom we may esteem what the rest were by their head, and tail; Boniface, and Benedict. tBoniface the seventh, who came in by bribery, was cast out by violence, went away with sacrilege, made money of his Church-robberies, and therewith got again the Popedom. uBenedict the ninth, who when he was thrown out for his unworthiness, and Silvester placed in his stead; he, by help of the faction which had made him Pope, threw Sylvester out again: and fearing that mens stomachs would not brook him long (they did so loth him and abhor him) he set the Popedom to sale, and Gregory the sixth bought it. These dealings of Gregory, Sylvester, and Benedict, *three most ugly monsters (as they are called by xPlatina) stirred up the Emperor Henry the second to look unto the Church, as Otho had done. Whereupon, when he was come into Italy, yPope Gregory went unto him: and offered him a precious diadem to win his favour. But he nevertheless ⟨p. 334⟩assembled together a Council of Bishops: zwho having examined the cause of Pope Gregory, & found that money made him Pope, judged him unlawfully made, & so he was deprived for Simony. Then, in consultation about a new Pope, when the Romans themselves did not name any, the Emperor named a German, Suidiger, a Bishop commended for his skill & virtue:
He thought no bridle fitter, then that the decrée of Adrian the first, who gaue the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperour, should be reuiued. And so he proposed the matter to the Councell: and the Councell agréed vpon it. Wherefore the former halfe of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperours. If the later were: whose was the faute? the Emperours? or the Popes and Councels, who gaue the Emperour that right? But in déed they were not. For, ralthough the Romans had sworne to Otho that they would neuer choose Pope without his consent, and his sonnes: yet sby and by they turned to their olde bent, like a deceitfull bow. Howbeit in his dayes they could not haue their purpose. For when they cast out Leo, and brought in Iohn againe, and chose one after him too: 1Otho by force of armes made them repent it, and redressed it. But in 2his sonnes dayes they went thorough with it. 3His nephew had a stroak in the choise of one or two: but they were of the better sorte. It was the Romans choise that thrust the monsters in. Of whom we may estéeme what the rest were by their head, and taile; Boniface, and Benedict. tBoniface the seuenth, who came in by briberie, was cast out by violence, went away with sacrilege, made money of his Church-robberies, and therewith got againe the Popedome. uBenedict the ninth, who when he was throwne out for his vnworthinesse, and Siuester placed in his stéede; he, by helpe of the faction which had made him Pope, threw Siluester out againe: and fearing that mens stomakes would not brooke him long (they did so loth him and abhorre him) hee set the Popedome to sale, and Gregorie the sixth bought it. These dealinges of Gregorie, Siluester, and Benedict, *thrée most vgly monsters (as they are called by xPlatina) stirred vp the Emperour Henrie the second to looke vnto the Church, as Otho had done. Whereupon, when he was come into Italie, y
rLuitprand. l. 6. c 6. Sigibert. in Chron.
sSigon. de reg•. Ital. lib. 7.
1Otho the first.
2Otho the second.
3Otho the third.
tPlatina de vit. Pont. in Bonifac. sept. Sigon de regno Ital. lib. 7. in the year 974.Platina de vit. Pont. in Bonifac. sept. Sigon de regno Ital. lib. 7. in the yeare 974.
uPlat. Bened. non. Sigon. lib. 8. in the year 1046.Plat. Bened. non. Sigon. lib. 8. in the yeare 1046.
who being approved by them all was chosen Pope, & called Clemens. By whom & by an other Council held at Rome the same power was given to Henry again for ordering of the Popedom, that was before to Otho. So neither did the Emperors intrude the later monsters of the fifty Popes: no more then the former. For there is but aone of the fifty after Clemens, and he none of the monsters; (though Genebrard make him one, because the Emperor chose him:) nor had the Romans needed to have been troubled with him, but that Clemens the German took some bItalian drugs amongst them. Nay, the Emperors were so far from intruding of monsters: that they did extrude them, and were the chiefest means to rid the Church of them. Which as it is evident by the whole course of their lives and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his cstory of Italy (no partial man against the Popes) doth bear the Emperors this witness, and layeth the blame of those monsters upon the Romans themselves. 1The noble men (saith he) of Rome, to advance their own private power, corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged: and thereby filled the Church (almost two hundred years together) with grievous seditions, and shameful evils, and disorders. These were the Marquess Albert, and Alberike, his son, a Consul, the Earls of Thusculum▪ & they who were of their kin, or by their means had grown to wealth. Who, either bribing the people and clergy with money, or spoiling them of the ancient liberty of the election by whatsoever other means, 5preferred at their lust their kinsmen, or friends, men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holiness and good order. For the repressing of whose outrage, Pope Leo the eighth revived the law, which had been made by Adrian the first, and repealed by the third: that no Pope elected should undertake the Popedom without the Emperors consent. Which law being taken away by occasion that the room was sought ambitiously in the city, and purchased ⟨p. 335⟩by bribes▪ the state of the Church was put again in great danger 3through the private lusts of the same factions. To provide therefore a remedy for these things, Henry the Emperor came into Italy: as hereupon Sigonius showeth.
who being approued by them all was chosen Pope, & called Clemens. By whom & by an other Councell held at Rome ye same power was giuen to Henrie againe for ordering of ye Popedome, yt was before to Otho. So neither did the Emperors intrude ye later monsters of the fiftie Popes: no more then the former. For there is but aone of the fiftie after Clemens, and he none of the monsters; (though Genebrard make him one, because the Emperour chose him:) nor had the Romanes néeded to haue béene troubled with him, but that Clemens the German tooke some bItalian drugs amongst them. Nay, the Emperours were so farre from intruding of monsters: that they did extrude them, and were the chiefest meanes to ridde the Church of them. Which as it is euident by the whole course of their liues and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his cstorie of Italie (no partiall man against the Popes) doth beare the Emperours this witnesse, and layeth the blame of those monsters vpon the Romanes themselues. 1The noble men (saith he) of Rome, to aduaunce their owne priuate power, corrupted them to whom the Popes election belonged: and thereby filled the Church (almost two hundred yeares togither) with grieuous seditions, and shamefull euils, and disorders. These were the Marques Albert, and Alberike, his sonne, a Consull, the Earles of Thusculum▪ & they who were of their kinne, or by their meanes had grown to wealth. Who, either bribing the people and clergie with money, or spoiling them of the auncient libertie of the election by whatsoeuer other meanes, 5preferred at their lust their kinsmen, or frendes, men commonly nothing like to the former Popes in holines and good order. For the repressing of whose outrage, Pope Leo the eighth reuiued the law, which had beene made by Adrian the first, and repealed by the third: that no Pope elected should vndertake the Popedome without the Emperours consent. Which law being taken away by occasion that the roome was sought ambitiously in the citie, and purchased ⟨p. 335⟩by bribes▪ the state of the Church was put againe in great daunger 3through the priuate lusts of the same factions. To prouide therefore a remedie for these things, Henrie the Emperour came into Italie: as hereupon Sigonius sheweth.
aNamely Damasus the second: whom Onaphrius calleth optimum Pontificem, reproving them who write otherwise of him. Annotat. in Platin. Clement. second.Namely Damasus the second: whom Onaphrius calleth optim•m Pontificem, reprouing them who write otherwise of him. Annotat. in Platin. Clement. secund.
bHe was poisoned. Krantz. Saxon. l. 4. c. 41. Genebr. Chron. l. •. in the year 1047.He was poysoned. Krantz. Saxon. l. 4. c. 41. Genebr. Chron. l. •. in the yeare 1047.
And so you may see the lewdness of Genebrard, that shameless parasite of the Popes who without all reverence both of God and man, doth rail, lye, and falsify stories, to deface the Emperors, and cross the writers of the Centuries. For he saith, that the Emperors ddid, as wild boars, eat up the vineyard of the Lord: the stories say, that they delivered it from wild boars. The stories say, that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romans them selves: ehe saith, that they came in by intrusion of the Emperors. The stories say, that the Emperors, who hunted out those beasts, were virtuous and lawful Princes: he calleth fthem tyrants; nor only them, but also gmany good Emperors moe, who meddled with the Popes election. Finally, the stories say, that the Emperors were allowed by Popes and Councils to do it: he saith hthat they usurped it by the right of Herod. And yet him self recordeth, and that in the same Chronicle too, that iPope Adrian with a Council, kPope Leo with a Council, lPope Clemens with a Council, did grant it unto Charles, Otho, and Henry the Emperors. I have read of an envious man, who was content to lose one of his own eyes, that an other might lose both. Genebrard is gone farther. For he is content to put out both his own eyes, that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs. That they may *acknowledge them selves to have praised the German Emperors unjustly: he granteth both that Popes with Councils have erred, and that their succession wa• broken off a great while. Wherein if you say the same with him, M. Hart: I am glad of it. But your fellows (I fear me) will not allow that you say, if you allow that he saith.
And so you may sée the lewdnes of Genebrard, that shamelesse parasite of the Popes who without all reuerence both of God and man, doth raile, lye, and falsifie stories, to deface the Emperours, and crosse the writers of the Centuries. For he saith, that the Emperours ddid, as wilde boares, eate vp the vineyard of the Lord: the stories say, that they deliuered it from wilde boares. The stories say, that the monsters of the Popes were chosen by the Romanes them selues: ehe saith, that they came in by intrusion of the Emperours. The stories say, that the Emperours, who hunted out those beastes, were vertuous and lawfull Princes: he calleth fthem tyrants; nor onely them, but also gmany good Emperours moe, who medled with the Popes election. Finally, the stories say, that the Emperours were allowed by Popes and Councels to doo it: he saith hthat they vsurped it by the right of Herode. And yet him selfe recordeth, and that in the same Chronicle too, that iPope Adrian with a Councell, kPope Leo with a Councell, lPope Clemens with a Councell, did graunt it vnto Charles, Otho, and Henrie the Emperours. I haue read of an enuious man, who was content to lose one of his owne eies, that an other might lose both. Genebrard is gone farther. For he is content to put out both his owne eies, that the writers of the Centuries may put out one of theirs. That they may *acknowledge them selues to haue praysed the German Emperours vniustly: hee graunteth both that Popes with Councels haue erred, and that their succession wa• broken off a great while. Wherein if you say the same with him, M. Hart: I am glad of it. But your felowes (I feare me) will not allow that you say, if you allow that he saith.
Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off: nor that the Popes may err and Councils. For as Genebrard taketh it, Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes.
Hart. No body saith that the succession of Popes was broken off: nor that the Popes may erre and Councels. For as Genebrard taketh it, Leo the eighth and Clemens the second were not Popes.
Rainoldes. But Adrian the first was, as Genebrard taketh it, and that one of the best Popes. Yet he did grant as much ⟨p. 336⟩to Charles the Emperor, as Leo did to Otho, as Clemens did to Henry. And if it be true that they were not Popes, whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose: then the Popes succession, which is almost the only eye of your Cyclops, will be clean put out by the devise of this *No-body. And how shall the writings of our Countrymen, mSanders, & nBristow and oRishton, and such others do then? who make the Popes succession the chiefest bulwark of your Church, a certain mark that never faileth? And what will pNo-body him self say to the third book of his Chronicle: where he wrote that 1Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome until the end of the world? Was this true when he wrote the third book? and was it false when he wrote the fourth?
Rainoldes. But Adrian the first was, as Genebrard taketh it, and that one of the best Popes. Yet he did graunt as much ⟨p. 336⟩to Charles the Emperour, as Leo did to Otho, as Clemens did to Henrie. And if it be true that they were not Popes, whom yet the Roman clergy with many Bishops chose: then the Popes succession, which is almost the onely eye of your Cyclops, will be cleane put out by the deuise of this *No-body. And how shall the writings of our Countriemen, mSanders, & nBristow and oRishton, and such others do then? who make the Popes succession ye chiefest bulwarke of your Church, a certaine marke that neuer faileth? And what will pNo-body him selfe say to the third booke of his Chronicle: where he wrote that 1Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world? Was this true when he wrote the third booke? and was it false when he wrote the fourth?
Hart. D. Genebrard (whom you shall prove to be some-body ere you have done, though you be flouting him with No-body,) doth show by the one place his meaning in the other. For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome until the end of the world: it is plain he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely, and simply. Wherefore, in that he addeth about the fifty Popes, 1that 2the lawful succession was disordered then: he meant that it was broken but in some sort, as it were; or (to say the truth) rather bruised, then broken; not interrupted, but disturbed. For neither Genebrard saith, nor any Catholic writer else, but that the succession of Popes hath continued, and shall unto the end.
Hart. D. Genebrard (whom you shal proue to be some-body ere you haue done, though you be flouting him with No-body,) doth shew by the one place his meaning in the other. For sith he wrote that Peters succession shall endure in the Church of Rome vntill the end of the world: it is plaine he meant not that it was broken of at any time absolutely, and simply. Wherefore, in that he addeth about the fiftie Popes, 1that 2the lawful succession was disordered then: he meant that it was broken but in some sort, as it were; or (to say the truth) rather brused, then broken; not interrupted, but disturbed. For neither Genebrard saith, nor any Catholike writer els, but that the succession of Popes hath continued, and shall vnto the end.
Rainoldes. Then I mistook his meaning, touching the succession; and yours, touching the Popes. For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes, who were thieves and robbers. Now I perceive you meant not absolutely, and simply, that they were not Popes; but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort: they were cracked Popes, as you would say, and not sound; or perhaps (in truth) rather crazed, then cracked. Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes, doth stand in force against them still. For it is true, as you said, that they did not succeed lawfully. Wherefore, either lawful succession is not necessary unto your succession: or the crazed Popes were no Popes at all. They did succeed Simon, but 1Simon the sorcerer, and not Simon Peter. Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successors for your successions ⟨p. 334⟩sake. Else you spoil your Church of her gayest ornament, through which the unskilful are most enamoured of her. Beside that neither would it help your cause a whit in trial of the issue. For sithence the Pope hath overmastered the Emperors, and thrust from his election, first them, then the people, afterward the clergy; & sbrought it to a few Cardinals: there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, (still I except *John,) and have come in as unlawfully.
Rainoldes. Then I mistooke his meaning, touching the succession; and yours, touching the Popes. For I thought that you had denied that they were Popes, who were theeues and robbers. Now I perceiue you meant not absolutely, and simply, that they were not Popes; but that they were not Popes after a kind of sort: they were crackt Popes, as you would say, and not sound; or perhaps (in truth) rather crased, then crackt. Yet the reason which you brought why they were not Popes, doth stand in force against them still. For it is true, as you said, that they did not succeede lawfully. Wherefore, either lawfull succession is not necessarie vnto your succession: or the crased Popes were no Popes at al. They did succéede Simon, but 1Simon the sorcerer, and not Simon Peter. Howbeit you must count them Simon Peters successours for your successions ⟨p. 334⟩sake. Else you spoile your Church of her gayest ornament, through which ye vnskilfull are most enamored of her. Beside that neither would it helpe your cause a whit in tryall of the issue. For sithence the Pope hath ouermaistred the Emperours, and thrust from his election, first them, then the people, afterward the clergie; & sbrought it to a few Cardinals: there haue bene as monstrous Popes as were before, (still I except *Iohn,) and haue come in as vnlawfully.
1Act. •.1•
sIn the year of Christ 1180. Concil. Lateran. sub Alexandro ter. cap. 1.In ye yeare of Christ 1180. Concil. Lateran. sub Alexandro ter. cap. 1.
*Pope John the twelfth: of whom in the 1. Divis. of this chapt.Pope Iohn the twelfth: of whom in the 1. Diuis. of this chapt.
Hart. There were many tumults and schisms in the Church, chiefly through the Emperors means, before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripeness which it is now at. But things began to mend from that time of disorder. For by the virtue of Leo the ninth, and the Popes following, that usurpation was taken from the Emperor Henry the fourth, although with great stirs. And so was the See Apostolic of Rome restored to her ancient brightness and beauty. Whereof our own days have seen the proof and trial in many good Popes, elected lawfully, no doubt: Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and him who reigneth now, Gregory the thirteenth, a most loving father of the Churches children.
Hart. There were many tumultes and schismes in the Church, chiefely through the Emperours meanes, before that the matter could be brought about to that perfection and ripenes which it is now at. But things began to mend from that time of disorder. For by the vertue of Leo the ninth, and the Popes folowing, that vsurpation was taken from the Emperor Henrie the fourth, although with great sturres. And so was the Sée Apostolike of Rome restored to her auncient brightnes and beauty. Whereof our owne daies haue séene the proofe and triall in many good Popes, elected lawfully, no doubt: Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and him who raigneth now, Gregorie the thirtéenth, a most louing father of the Churches children.
Rainoldes. Whether that these Popes, or other, have been good; and their elections lawful: it is not the question. Perhaps you praise them for affection: perhaps they have been good, as Popes. For Popes in our days are praised for their goodness, when they surpass not the wickedness of other men: as a tgood historian, who knew and loved them well, doth note in 1Clemens the seventh. 2Marcellus the second dyed the two and twentieth day of his Popedom not without suspicion of poison, (saith your Genebrard,) *because some men thought that he would be to good. Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and Gregory the thirteenth have held the Popedom longer. If they were good Popes: I trust they were not too good. As for their elections: the days are yet too young to see the faithful stories of them. But, if they were chosen as their predecessors, according to the custom of the Church of Rome: then by the elections of uPius the third, xJulius the second, yLeo the tenth, zClemens the seventh, and Cardinal aWolsey's letters suing to succeed Clemens, wise men may conjecture▪ how lawfully they were chosen. You say that there were many ⟨p. 339⟩tumults, and schisms, chiefly through the Emperors means, before the Popes election could be wrested from them, and brought to the Cardinals: but after that time, things began to mend. In deed they have mended, as sower ale doth in summer. For of bthirty schisms in the Church of Rome (so many as no Church can boast of besides▪) the worst and the longest hath been sith that time, even *the nine and twentieth: which lasted by the space of fifty years together, first, with two Popes at once; then, with three. And, if the Emperor Sigismund had not been, cthrough whose means the Council of Constance was assembled, and the three removed: by this time your Church might have had as many Popes, as (in dthe Revelation) the scarlet coloured beast hath heads. But to leave the Emperors, and prove the point in question, that since the Popes were chosen only by the Cardinals there have been as monstrous Popes as were before, and have come in as unlawfully: there are so many examples, that it is hard to make choice, or know where to begin amongst them. Let him be the first, who compiled 1part of the canon law, and 2that lusty decretal of the Popes supremacy, even Boniface the eighth.
Rainoldes. Whether that these Popes, or other, haue béene good; and their elections lawfull: it is not the question. Perhaps you praise them for affection: perhaps they haue béene good, as Popes. For Popes in our daies are praysed for their goodnes, when they surpasse not the wickednes of other men: as a tgood historian, who knew and loued them well, doth note in 1Clemens the seuenth. 2Marcellus the second dyed the two and twentéeth day of his Popedome not without suspicion of poyson, (saith your Genebrard,) *because some men thought that he would be to good. Pius the fourth, Pius the fifth, and Gregorie the thirtéenth haue held the Popedome longer. If they were good Popes: I trust they were not too good. As for their electious: the daies are yet too young to sée the faithfull stories of them. But, if they were chosen as their predecessours, according to the custome of the Church of Rome: then by ye elections of uPius the third, xIulius the second, yLeo the tenth, zClemens the seuenth, and Cardinall aWoolseis letters suing to succéede Clemens, wise men may coniecture▪ how lawfully they were chosen. You say that there were many ⟨p. 339⟩tumultes, and schismes, chiefly through the Emperours meanes, before the Popes election could bee wrested from them, and brought to the Cardinals: but after that time, thinges began to mende. In déede they haue mended, as sower ale doth in summer. For of bthirtie schismes in the Church of Rome (so many as no Church can boast of besides▪) the worst and the longest hath béene sith that time, euen
tGuicciardia. histor. Ital. l. 16.
1Who was Pope in the year 1533.Who was Pope in the yeare 1533.
2Pope in Queen Maries days. 1555.Pope in Queene Maries daies. 1555.
aIn M. Foxc• English ecclesiast. history.In M. Foxc• English ecclesiast. historie.
bO•uphr. in Chronic. Rom. •out.
*Schisma omnium pessimum, & diuturnius in ecclesia Rom. xxix. quod quinquaginta annos perduravit.Schisma omnium pessimum, & diuturnius in ecclesia Rom. xxix. quod quinquaginta annos perdurauit.
cAntonin. hist. part. 3. tit. 22. c. 6. Paul. Aemil. de reb. gest. Francor. l. 10.
the Emperour Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order, caused the Bishops of Italie with others, and the Roman clergie, to be assembled in a Councell. Wherein after that they had deposed Iohn, and chosen Leo the eigth, all, with one consent:
For, he considered, that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperours, and left it to the people and clergie: the foule and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts, the citie with tumults, and the elections with vilanie. He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way.
Pope Gregorie went vnto him: and offered him a pretious diademe to winne his fauour. But he neuertheles
who hauing examined the cause of Pope Gregorie, & found that mony made him Pope, iudged him vnlawfully made, & so he was depriued for Simonie. Then, in consultation about a new Pope, when the Romanes themselues did not name any, ye Emperour named a German, Suidiger, a Bishop commended for his skil & vertue:
the nine and twentieth: which lasted by the space of fiftie yeares together, first, with two Popes at once; then, with three. And, if the Emperour Sigismund had not béene,
the Reuelation) the scarlet coloured beast hath heads. But to leaue the Emperours, and proue the point in question, that since the Popes were chosen onely by the Cardinals there haue béene as monstrous Popes as were before, and haue come in as vnlawfully: there are so many examples, that it is hard to make choise, or know where to beginne amongst them. Let him be the first, who compiled
