The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. Good words, M. Hart. Your plaster, of mediators of intercession and salvation, is too narrow for this sore. Your pang doth make you not to see it.
Rainoldes. Good words, M. Hart. Your plaister, of mediators of intercession and saluation, is too narrow for this soare. Your pang doth make you not to sée it.
Hart. Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we give to Saints, is so far inferior to the divine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for us, we say not so to him, we do not think of him so basely, but we desire him to have mercy upon us. Wherefore, we make him only mediator of salvation; and them, of intercession.
Hart. Nay: no whit to narrow. For the mediation which we giue to Saintes, is so farre inferiour to the diuine and singular mediation of Christ, that whereas we say to them, Pray for vs, we say not so to him, we doo not thinke of him so basely, but wée desire him to haue mercy vpon vs. Wherefore, we make him onely mediatour of saluation; and them, of intercession.
Rainoldes. Yet is your plaster too narrow for the sore which you apply it too. For the blood and wounds of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spake off. And although you think not of intercession generally, as ethe scripture doth, which maketh it proper to fthe only mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus: yet (I hope) you think of that intercession by the blood and wounds, that it is his alone, who gave him self a ransom for us, and
redeemed us with his precious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might be made a mediator of intercession in this preeminent sort: that can not heal your Portesse. For it doth make him flatly a mediator of salvation: not only to pray for us, but to have mercy upon us.
Op•• nobis
ô Thoma porrige:
Rege stantes,
jacentes erige:
Mores, actus,
& vitam corrig•:
Et in paci•
nos viam dirige.
⟨p. 481⟩
Salve Thoma,
virga justitiae,
Mundi jubar,
robur ecclesiae,
Plebis amor,
cleri deliciae:
Salve gregis
tutor egregie,
Salua tuae
gaudentes gloriae.
O Thomas reach
thy help to us:
Stay them that stand,
raise them that lie:
Correct our manners,
deeds & life:
Guide us into
the way of peace.
⟨p. 481⟩
All hail ô Thom,
the rod of right,
The worlds light,
the churches strength,
The peoples love,
the clergies joy:
All hail brave patron
of the flock,
Save them who in
thine honour glee.
This prayer, which giveth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your
where yet there is a prayer which giveth as great honour to an other creature, even to a wooden cross.
O crux, ••e, ipes unica,
Ho• passionis tempore,
Auge piis justitiam,
Reisque dona veniam.
All hail ô cross, our only hope,
In this time of the passion,
Increase thou justice to the godly,
And give to sinners pardon.
Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why have you retained this, to the cross, and not the other to S. Thomas.
Rainoldes. Yet is your plaister too narrow for the soare which you apply it too. For the blood and woundes of Thomas are presented, in the prayers that I spake off. And although you thinke not of intercession generally, as ethe scripture doth, which maketh it proper to fthe only mediatour betweene God and man, the man Christ Iesus: yet (I hope) you thinke of that intercession by the blood and woundes, that it is his alone, who gaue him selfe a raunsome for vs, and gredeemed vs with his pretious blood. But if it were so that Thomas might bée made a mediatour of intercession in this preeminent sort: that can not heale your Portesse. For it doth make him •latly a mediatour of saluation: not onely to pray for vs, but to haue mercy vpon vs.
Op•• nobis
ô Thoma porrige:
Rege stantes,
iacentes erige:
Mores, actus,
& vitam corrig•:
Et in paci•
nos viam dirige.
⟨p. 481⟩Salue Thoma,
virga iustitiae,
Mundi iubar,
robur ecclesiae,
Plebis amor,
cleri deliciae:
Salue gregis
tutor egregie,
Salua tuae
gaudentes gloriae.
*O Thomas reach
thy helpe to vs:
Stay them that stand,
raise them that lie:
Correct our maners,
deedes & life:
Guide vs into
the way of peace.
⟨p. 481⟩All haile ô Thom,
the rodde of right,
The worldes light,
the churches strength,
The peoples loue,
the clergies ioye:
All haile braue patrone
of the flocke,
Saue them who in
thine honour glee.
This praier, which giueth the honour of God to a creature, is not in your hreformed Portesse: iwhere yet there is a prayer which giueth as great honour to an other creature, euen to a woodden crosse.
O •rux, ••e, ipes vnica,
Ho• passionis tempore,
Auge piis iustitiam,
Reisque dona veniam.
All haile ô crosse, our onely hope,
In this time of the passion,
Encrease thou iustice to the godly,
And giue to sinners pardon.
Now sith our reformed Church hath thought it impious to offer any such prayers to creatures: why haue you retained this, to the crosse, and not the other to S. Thomas.
*This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace thereof is half lost for lack of •yme: which in the Latin is very good.This is the meaning of the Latin. But the grace therof is halfe lost for lacke of •yme: which in the Latin is very good.
hBre•iarium Roman. […] decret. Sacrosanct concil. Trid. •estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint.Bre•iarium Roman. 〈…〉 decret. Sacrosanct concil. Trid. •estitut. & edit. a Pio Quint.
Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterbury were in the Roman Portesse, before they reformed it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the use of Sarum.
Hart. Whether that prayer to S. Thomas of Canterburie were in the Roman Portesse, before they reformed it: I am not sure; perhaps it was not; although it were in ours after the vse of Sarum.
Rainoldes. Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacy. But whether it were or no: there were other things 1uncertain and 2inconvenient, which the reformers have left out, as kthe Pope confesseth. Who lconfesseth also, that almost all Primers, yea the Latin too, 3were stuffed full with vain errors of superstitions, before he reformed it. Wherefore sith you have left out other superstitious & inconvenient things, in your reformed Service-books: why have you retained this prayer to the cross, which might have gone with the rest?
Rainoldes. Most likely that it was in the Roman too: sith he dyed a martyr of the Roman Papacie. But whether it were or no: there were other thinges 1vncertaine and 2inconuenient, which the reformers haue left out, as kthe Pope confesseth. Who lconfesseth also, that almost al Primers, yea the Latin too, 3were stuffed full with vaine errours of superstitions, before he reformed it. Wherefore sith you haue left out other superstitious & inconuenient things, in your reformed Seruice-bookes: why haue you retained this prayer to the crosse, which might haue gone with the rest?
1In cer•a.
2Aliena.
kPope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breviar. reformat.Pope Pius the fifth. Praefat. Roman. Breuiar. reformat.
Hart. The other were abolished justly, as unfit. But this is •ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the cross, of which S. mPaul saith, God forbid that I should rejoice but in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Hart. The other were a•olished iustly, as vnfit. But this is •ot so. For why should you mislike a prayer to the crosse, of which S. mPaule saith, God forbid that I should reioyce but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ?
Rainoldes. That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paul doth mean it: not in the 1wood, the 2gallows, the 3tree, 4to which you make your prayer. For God forbid that we should rejoice in any thing, saving nin the Lord: whose redeeming of us by suffering death upon the cross, because it was a stumbling block to the Jews; S. Paul saith othe cross was a stumbling block, by a *figurative speech, meaning (as him self doth open it) pChrist crucified. And so he calleth Christs blood, qthe blood of the cross; and the preaching of his gospel, rthe preaching of the cross; and persecution rising of it, spersecution for the cross: and against them who rejoiced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he rejoiceth not but in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reformed your Service-books, thought, that of the prayers which we do mislike they might abolish some and retain others: what if amongst the feasts which others do mislike, they, who reformed our ceremonies, retained the annunciation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, nativity, and assumption? Chiefly seeing that in those, which they retained, they regarded the honour of Christ conceived and presented, as your selves acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they removed the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feasts instituted to a Saints honour, as they were indeed: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that whereof the memory was celebrated in them: and they maintain corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christs honour. For tyou mean by the feasts of her nativity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceived in sin. Which if it were so▪ then neither she needed Christ to be uher Saviour, who came to save sinners: & the prerogative of Christ, yto be severed from sinners, were common unto her with him.x A thing so absurd and contrary to the scriptures, (which show that zall have sinned, and aare the children of wrath by nature,) that not bthe Fathers only, but your chief cSchool-men, and dCanons also, do gainsay it. Yea the ⟨p. 483⟩feast of her conception, when it was creeping in, was therefore ereproved:
Rainoldes. That is, in Christ crucified, as S. Paule doth meane it: not in the 1wood, the 2galowes, the 3tree, 4to which you make your prayer. For God forbidde that wee should reioyce in any thing, sauing nin the Lord: whose redéeming of vs by suffering death vpon the crosse, because it was a stumbling blocke to the Iewes; S. Paule saith othe crosse was a stumbling blocke, by a *figuratiue spéech, meaning (as him selfe doth open it) pChrist crucified. And so he calleth Christes blood, qthe blood of the crosse; and the preaching of his gospell, rthe preaching of the crosse; and persecution rising of it, spersecution for the crosse: and against them who reioyced in circumcision and the law, he saith that he reioyceth not but in the crosse of our Lord Iesus Christ. But, to the purpose of my question, if they of your Church, who reformed your Seruice-bookes, thought, that of the prayers which we doo mislike they might abolish some and retaine others: what if amongst the feastes which others doo mislike, they, who reformed our ceremonies, retained the annuntiation and purification of the virgin, though they abolished the conception, natiuitie, and assumption? Chiefly séeing that in those, which they reteined, they regarded the honour of Christ conceiued and presented, as your selues acknowledge: in those, which they abolished, they remoued the superstitious worship of a creature, as the thing witnesseth. For both they were supposed to be feastes instituted to a Saintes honour, as they were indéede: neither is there any thing of them in the scriptures, that men might be edified by that wherof the memorie was celebrated in them: and they maintaine corrupt opinions, touching the virgin, with derogation to Christes honour. For
1Regnavit a ligno De•s.Regnauit a ligno De•s.
2Suspensus est paribulo.
3Arbour decora & fulgid•, Or na•• aegis purpura. Electa digno •••pite […] sancta membra tangere:Arbor decora & fulgid•, Or na•••egis purpura. Electa digno •••pite 〈…〉 sancta membra tangere:
4Be•ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam•ue tulit Tartari, O crux, •ue spes unica, & quae sequuntur.Be•ta cuius brachiis Secli pependit pretium, Statêra sacta corporis, Praedam•ue tulit Tartari, O crux, •ue spes vnica, & quae sequūtur.
and the very gloss of your fCanon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for keeping it. But the conception and nativity of the blessed virgin make her scarce equal unto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somewhat higher. For when Christ was taken up into heaven: gthe Apostles were lead forth a little way on foot, to see it and witness it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in clouds, as in chariots, from all the coasts of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and call again, a fable, or if you will, a lye, as hBede doth: though your Divines of Rhemes do vouch it as a true story.
and the very glose of your fCanon-law condemned sundry countries, and England namely, for kéeping it. But the conception and natiuitie of the blessed virgin make her scarse equall vnto Christ: the feast of the assumption doth lift her somwhat higher. For when Christ was taken vp into heauen: gthe Apostles were lead forth a litleway on foote, to sée it and witnes it. But to her assumption they were brought by miracle, in cloudes, as in chariots, from all the coastes of the world, through which they were dispersed. And this is it which I called, and cal againe, a fable, or if you will, a lye, as hBede doth: though your Diuines of Rhemes doo vouch it as a true storie.
Hart. It is a true story, as our Divines of Rhemes do •ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lye. For ihe reported it to have been done the second year after Christs ascension▪ which Bede doth prove it could not be. But our Divines refer it to the fifteenth year after. For they take the common opinion that she lived three score and three years in all. Now, kshe brought forth Christ when she was fifteen year old. So that her assumption was eight and forty years after Christs nativity. And this agreeth with lEusebius, who saith that some do write it was revealed to them that she was assumed the eight and forteeth year of Christ: which was fifteen years after his ascension.
Hart. It is a true storie, as our Diuines of Rhemes doo •ouch it: though, as he reported it whom venerable Bede doth touch, it was a lye. For ihe reported it to haue béene doon the second yeare after Christes ascension▪ which Bede doth proue it could not be. But our Diuines referre it to the fifteenth yeare after. For they take the common opinion that she liued three score and three yeares in all. Now, kshee brought forth Christ when she was fifteene yeare olde. So that her assumption was eight and fortie yeares after Christs natiuitie. And this agréeth with lEusebius, who saith yt some do write it was reueled to them that she was assumpted the eight and forteeth yeare of Christ: which was fifteene yeares after his ascension.
Hart. What if some were deceived in circumstance of time. Yet the story notwithstanding of her assumption is true, as our Divines of Rhemes report it. For *at the time of her death, (as S. oDenis first, and after him S. pDamascene writeth,) all the Apostles, then dispersed into divers nations to preach the gospel, were miraculously brought together, (saving S. Thomas who came the third day after,) to Jerusalem, to honour her divine departure and funeral, as the said S. Denis writeth. Who saith, that him self, S. Timothy, and S. Hierotheus were present: testifying ⟨p. 484⟩also of his own hearing, that, both before her death and after for three days, not only the Apostles and other holy men present, but the Angels also and powers of heaven did sing most melodious hymns. They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani. But for S. Thomas sake, who desired to see and to reverence it, they opened the sepulchre the third day: and finding it void of the holy body, but exceedingly fragrant, they returned, assuredly deeming that her body was assumed into heaven. As the Church of God holdeth, being most agreeable to the singular privilege of the mother of God: and therefore celebrateth most solemnly the day of her assumption. And it is consonant not only to the said S. Denis, & S. Damascene, but to S. qAthanasius also, who avoucheth the same. Of which assumption of her body S. Bernard also wrote five notable sermons, extant in his works.
Hart. What if some were deceiued in circumstance of time. Yet the storie notwithstanding of her assumption is true, as our Diuines of Rhemes report it. For *at the time of her death, (as S. oDenys first, and after him S. pDamascene writeth,) al the Apostles, then dispersed into diuers nations to preach the gospell, were miraculously brought togither, (sauing S. Thomas who came the third day after,) to Ierusalem, to honour her diuine departure and funerall, as the said S. Denys writeth. Who saith, that him self, S. Timothee, and S. Hierotheus were present: testifying ⟨p. 484⟩also of his owne hearing, that, both before her death and after for three daies, not onely the Apostles and other holy men present, but the Angels also and powers of heauen did sing most melodious hymnes. They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani. But for S. Thomas sake, who desired to sée and to reuerence it, they opened the sepucher the third day: and finding it voide of the holy body, but excéedingly fragrant, they returned, assuredly déeming that her body was assumpted into heauen. As the Church of God holdeth, being most agréeable to the singular priuilege of the mother of God: and therefore celebrateth most solemnely the day of her assumption. And it is consonant not onelie to the said S. Denys, & S. Damascene, but to S. qAthanasius also, who auoucheth the same. Of which assumption of her bodie S. Bernard also wrote fiue notable sermons, extant in his workes.
Rainoldes. But in all those five sermons of S. Bernard, there is not one word of your miraculous fable. As little, in S. Athanasius: beside that, the sermon, which you allege as his, is in ryour own edition rejected for a bastard. In Damascene there is more: yet not so much neither, as here syour Portesse hath. But he is *too late & too weak a witness, to prove a doubtful matter pretended to be done almost five hundred years before him. The best, or rather all your proof, is S. Denis: whom you belie notably. For where saith he that which you do father on him?
Rainoldes. But in all those fiue sermons of S. Bernard, there is not one worde of your miraculous fable. As litle, in S. Athanasius: beside that, the sermon, which you alleage as his, is in ryour own edition reiected for a bastard. In Damascene there is more: yet not so much neither, as here syour Portesse hath. But he is *too late & too weake a witnes, to proue a doubtful matter pretended to be doon almost fiue hundred yeares before him. The best, or rather all your proofe, is S. Denys: whom you belye notablie. For where saith he that which you doo father on him?
rIn edit. Petri Nannij Lovan. prae•at. ad Episcopum Atrebat.In edit. Petri Nannij Louan. prae•at. ad Episcopum Atrebat.
sBreviar. Romanum in Festis August. quarto di• infra octavam assump•. Beat. Mariae.Breuiar. Romanum in Festis August. quarto di• infra octauam assump•. Beat. Mariae.
*About the year of Christ 740.About the yeare of Christ 740.
Rainoldes. He wrote no such epistle. Your Rhemists did mistake their Portesse, whence this stuff is borrowed. For reading there, that Denis wrote hereof to Timothy, they thought it had been in an epistle to Timothy. The place, which they meant, is in a tbook entitled of the names of God: pretended to be written to Timothy by Denis.
Rainoldes. He wrote no such epistle. Your Rhemistes did mistake their Portesse, whence this stuffe is borowed. For reading there, that Denys wrote hereof to Timothee, they thought it had béene in an epistle to Timothee. The place, which they meant, is in a tbooke entitled of the names of God: pretended to be writen to Timothee by Denys.
tDionys. ad Timotheum de divin. nomin. cap. 3.Dionys. ad Timotheum de diuin. nomin. cap. 3.
you meane by the feastes of her natiuity, and conception, that she was neither borne nor conceiued in sinne. Which if it were so▪ then neither she néeded Christ to be
bAmbros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psal•. 1.11•. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. concion. 2. & contr. Julian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. justit. c. 21. Leo de nativit. •om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Bede l. 1 ••Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. •• 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174.Ambros. l. 2. comment. in Luc c. 2. & in Psal•. 1.11•. Serm. 6. August. in Psal. 34. concion. 2. & contr. Iu•ian. l. 5. c. 15. & De perfect. iustit. c. 21. Leo de natiuit. •om. Serm. 1. & 2. Fulgent. de side ad Petr. c. 26. Damascen. de orthod. fid. l. 3. cap. 2. Beda l. 1 ••Luc. c. 1. Anselm. Cur Deus homo. l. 2. c. •• 6. Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174.
eBernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Belleth. in explicat. divin. offic. c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7.Bernard. ad Canon. Lugdun. epist. 174. Beleth. in explicat. diuin. offic. c. 146. Durand. in Rationali l. 7. cap. 7.
