The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of unction (or anointing) doth figure and work an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Judaizing (that is, with doing as the Jews did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of unction.
Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of vnction (or anointing) doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing (that is, with doing as the Iewes did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction.
Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference between the Jews and you, that your holy unction is made of oil, and balm, where theirs was made of oil & myrrh with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuff of it would not clear your Church from Judaizing in the kind of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctify Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dog, and say that you do not therein as the Jews did, because they did sacrifice, not dogs, but sheep & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope severeth your unction from theirs, that yours doth work and figure an other thing then theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the gifts of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either work or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of hhim, who ordered theirs; and ithe cause, why: yet might the ceremony be Jewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintain but it were Judaism for your Church to sacrifice ka lamb in burnt offering, though you did it to signify, not Christ that was to come,
the whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church do keep the Jewish rites, with an other meaning then God ordained them for the Jews, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salve that blister: yet this of Peter showeth that the thing is Jewish, and you do Judaize who keep them.
Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you, that your holy vnction is made of oyle, and balme, where theirs was made of oyle & myrrhe with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dogge, and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did, because they did sacrifice, not dogges, but shéepe & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs, that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of hhim, who ordered theirs; and ithe cause, why: yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice ka lambe in burnt offering, though you did it to signifie, not Christ that was to come, las the Iewes did, ⟨p. 573⟩but that Christ is come, and mhath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie. At the least, S. Peter ndid constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize, (as you terme it,) when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in ochoise of meates. Yet neither he, nor they allowed it in that meaning, which it was giuen to the Iewes in. For it was giuen them pto betoken that holines, and qtraine them vp vnto it, which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull. And Peter knew rthat Christ had doon this in truth, and staken away that figure, yea, tthe whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites, with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salue that blister: yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish, and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them.
Hart. S. Peter did not err in faith, but in behaviour, when he withdrew him self from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a default in conversation not in doctrine, as uTertullian saith. Neither doth S. xAustin think otherwise of it.
Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith, but in behauiour, when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine, as uTertullian saith. Neither doth S. xAustin thinke otherwise of it.
Rainoldes. I grant. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but yin walking according to it, that having lived before not as the Jews, but Gentile-like, yet zthen he left the Gentiles for fear of the Jews, and adissembled his judgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more convince both your Church of Judaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospel with that leaven. For if S. Peter bwas to be condemned, as causing them to Judaize, whom through infirmity he drew by example to play the Jews in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of settled judgement doth move and force Christians to play the Jews in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproved him. But cPope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintain the doctrine of the Trent-Council approving both dthe rest of your Jewish rites, and namely ethat of unction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they do not offend as the true Apostle of Christ ⟨p. 574⟩S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, fwho troubled the Galatians, and perverted the gospel by mingling of the law with it.
Rainoldes. I graunt. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but yin walking according to it, that hauing liued before not as the Iewes, but Gentile-like, yet zthen hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes, and adissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen. For if S. Peter bwas to be condemned, as causing them to Iudaize, whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproued him. But cPope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both dthe rest of your Iewish rites, and namely ethat of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ ⟨p. 574⟩S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, fwho troubled the Galatians, and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it.
Hart. But, (as I have showed out of ithe Council of Trent,) the ceremonies which we use in the sacrifice of the Mass, as namely mystical blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other such things, came all not from the false but from the true Apostles. And if there be any which they ordained not: that might be ordained by 1our holy mother the Church. As it was, that some things should be pronounced in the Mass with a soft voice, & some things with a louder. For such is the nature of men, that it can not be lifted up easily to the meditation of divine things 2without outward helps. Which reason, added by the Council, doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance, and the Apostolic tradition against your cavils and surmises.
Hart. But, (as I haue shewed out of ithe Councell of Trent,) the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse, as namely mysticall blessinges, lightes, incense, vestiments, and many other such thinges, came all not from the false but from the true Apostles. And if there be any which they ordeined not: that might be ordeined by 1our holy mother the Church. As it was, that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice, & some thinges with a lowder. For such is the nature of men, that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges 2without outward helpes. Which reason, added by the Councel, doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance, and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises.
Rainoldes. Alas. And see you not how giddily the Council doth bring in that reason, that because our nature doth need outward helps, therefore some things should be pronounced softly, some aloud? For the very chiefest of the outward helps, which God hath ordained to raise our minds from earth to heaven, is kthe hearing of his word. His word is rehearsed in the Epistle, the Gospel, the Canon, and other parts of the Mass. The Mass lyou forbid to be said in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people: so that if all were 3cried as loud as Baals service, the people could not understand it. Yet not content with that, you will a part of it to be said with a soft voice, that the poor souls may not as much as hear it. Wherefore the reason which your Council maketh for that Massing-rite, is this in effect, that because the blindness and coldness of men doth need to be lightened and warmed by Gods word▪ which is rehearsed in the Mass: therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voice, that they ⟨p. 575⟩may not hear it; part with a louder, but in a strange tongue, that, although they hear it, they may not understand it. And was there not a mighty spirit of giddiness in the Princes of Trent, that made them write so drunkenly? Yea, mwith a curse to seal it too?
Rainoldes. Alas. And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason, that because our nature doth neede outward helpes, therefore some things should be pronounced softly, some aloude? For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes, which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen, is kthe hearing of his word. His word is rehersed in the Epistle, the Gospell, the Canon, and other partes of the Masse. The Masse lyou forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people: so that if all were 3cryed as loude as Baals seruice, the people could not vnderstand it. Yet not content with that, you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice, that the poore soules may not as much as heare it. Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite, is this in effect, that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde▪ which is rehearsed in the Masse: therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce, that they ⟨p. 575⟩may not heare it; part with a lowder, but in a strange toong, that, although they heare it, they may not vnderstand it. And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent, that made them write so droonkenly? Yea, mwith a curse to seale it too?
Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church, whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are uttered with a soft voice, is to be condemned: or that the Mass ought to be celebrated only in the vulgar tongue. And great reason why.
Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church, whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice, is to be condemned: or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onely in the vulgar toung. And great reason why.
Rainoldes. No doubt. For as nthe Jews, when they could not justify their wilful withstanding of the Son of God, agreed, that if any man confessed him to be Christ, he should be excommunicated: so by like reason your Judaizers of Rome do ban and curse us, when they cannot justify their impudent customs and corruptions against us.
Rainoldes. No dout. For as nthe Iewes, when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God, agréeed, that if any man confessed him to be Christ, he should be excommunicated: so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vs, when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vs.
Rainoldes. Catholic, and religious, to keep the Saints of God from hearing of Gods word? Catholic, and religious, to have the Church-service in a tongue which the Church, the faithful people, understand not?
Rainoldes. Catholike, and religious, to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word? Catholike, and religious, to haue the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church, the faithfull people, vnderstand not?
Hart. Yea, Catholic, and religious, if you mark the reasons which they give thereof. For of othe one, they show, that the Church hath ordained it: of pthe other, that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar tongue.
Hart. Yea, Catholike, and religious, if you marke the reasons which they giue thereof. For of othe one, they shew, that the Church hath ordeined it: of pthe other, that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung.
Rainoldes. Not the ancient Fathers? Why, qthey are clear for it: and ryounger Fathers too. Yea, Fathers both, and children, I mean the whole Churches, of all nations, in the old time; of many, even till this day: as namely of the sSyrians, tArmenians, uSlavonians, xMuscovites, and yEthiopians.
Rainoldes. Not the ancient Fathers? Why, qthey are cleere for it: and ryonger Fathers too. Yea, Fathers both, and children, I meane the whole Churches, of al nations, in the old time; of many, euen till this day: as namely of the sSyrians, tArmenians, uSlauonians, xMoscouites, and yEthiopians.
qJustin. Mart. apolog. 2. Tertullian. in apologet. Cyprian. de orat. Dom. Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 8. Augustin. de catechizand. rudib. cap. 9.Iustin. Mart. apolog. 2. Tertullian. in apologet. Cyprian. de orat. Dom. Euseb. hist. eccles. l. 7. c. 8. Augustin. de catechizand. rudib. cap. 9.
rIsidor. de of•ic. eccles. l. 1. c. 10. Cyrillus, Aen. Silu. hist. Bohem. cap. 13. Jo. Beleth de divin. of•ic. in proem. Lyra in 1. Cor. 14. Caietan. opusculor. Tom. 3. tractat. 15.Isidor. de of•ic. eccles. l. 1. c. 10. Cyrillus, Aen. Silu. hist. Bohem. cap. 13. Io. Beleth de diuin. of•ic. in prooem. Lyra in 1. Cor. 14. Caietan. opusculor. Tom. 3. tractat. 15.
sLiturg. Basil. ex version. Syr. quam vocant Anaphoram.
Hart. What so ever Churches or Fathers do, or have done: it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Council of Trent. And they, being Bishops and Pastors of the Church, might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by zyour own confessions.
Hart. What so euer Churches or Fathers doo, or haue doon: it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent. And they, being Bishops and Pastours of the Church, might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by zyour owne confessions.
Rainoldes. They might. But our confessions withal should have taught them, that as they may provide for athings ⟨p. 576⟩to be done with comeliness and in order: so their rites and ceremonies must be ball to edify. Which the Trent-fathers observed not in this rite, of having the service in a strange tongue, as themselves acknowledge. For cthey write expressly, that 1although the Mass contain great instruction of the faithful people, yet the Fathers have not thought it expedient 2that it should be sung or said every where in the vulgar tongue. Whereof this is the meaning, to open it in plainer words, that the corrupt custom of the Church of Rome, praying, and reading the scriptures in a strange tongue, in deed doth not edify: yet must stand for policy, to keep their Churches credit. For if they should yield that they have erred in one thing, men would doubt perhaps that they might err in more. And this do they farther bewray by the other point of uttering the words of consecration *secretly, that the faithful may not hear them. For in saying that dthe Church hath ordained that rite, they do closely grant that Christ ordained it not. Nay, etheir own men teach that fthe example of Christ, and gthe order of his Apostles, with hthe Fathers too, is manifest against it. Beside that, in calling it ia rite of the Church of Rome, they signify that other Churches do not use it, no not kthe Greek Church. And yet against the practise of Churches, of Fathers, of Apostles, and of Christ, they say that a dumb show (which lcrept in by custom) was ordained by our holy mother the Church: and, as men resolved to wallow in their own vomit, they curse him whosoever he be that shall condemn it.
Rainoldes. They might. But our confessions withall should haue taught them, that as they may prouide for athings ⟨p. 576⟩to be doon with comelines and in order: so their rites and ceremonies must be ball to edifie. Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite, of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue, as themselues acknowlege. For cthey write expressely, that 1although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people, yet the Fathers haue not thought it expedient 2that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue. Whereof this is the meaning, to open it in plainer words, that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome, praying, and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue, in deede doth not edifie: yet must stand for policie, to keepe their Churches credit. For if they should yéeld that they haue erred in one thing, men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more. And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration *secretly, that the faithfull may not heare them. For in saying that dthe Church hath ordeined that rite, they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not. Nay, etheir owne men teach that fthe example of Christ, and gthe order of his Apostles, with hthe Fathers too, is manifest against it. Beside that, in calling it ia rite of the Church of Rome, they signifie that other Churches do not vse it, no not
a1. Cor. •4. ve•. •0.
bver. 26.
cSess. 22. cap. 8.
1••tsi: non tamen.
2Ut vulgari passim lingua celebraretur.Vt vulgari passim lingua celebraretur.
*Secreté profer• verba consecrationis, Ho• est corpus meum. In Canon. Missae.
dConcil. Trident. Sess. 22. c. 5.Concil. Tridēt. Sess. 22. c. 5.
eThom. Aquin. Sum. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 7•. art. 1. D. Harding in his answer to the 16. art. of B. Jewels challenge.Thom. Aquin. Summ. Theolog. part. 3. quaest. 7•. art. 1. D. Harding in his answere to the 16. art. of B. Iewels chalenge.
hAmbros. de sacrament. lib. 4. c. 5. Leo Serm. 6. de •eiun•o 7. men•is. Justinian. in Authent. 137. §. Ad haec jubemus.Ambros. de sacrament. lib. 4. c. 5. Leo Serm. 6. de •eiun•o 7. men•is. Iustinian. in Authent. 137. §. Ad haec iubemus.
crept in by custome) was ordeined by our holy mother the Church: and, as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit, they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it.
kChrysost. Li•urgia. Bessario de sacrament. •ucharist.
lAs Pope In•ocentius the third saith in his treatise of the Mysteries of the Mass. lib. 3. cap. 1.As Pope In•ocentius the third saith in his treatise of the Mysteries of the Masse. lib. 3. cap. 1.
