The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. Then must you bid your Schoolmen now adieu, and agree with us in the division of the commandments; though we give you Clemens (whom father Robert citeth) and three or four voices more. Howbeit I can not urge you to do it, unless that you do it upon surer ground: because this ground is slabby, and the rule unsure for men to walk on. For, that the greater number of the Fathers expoundeth Scriptures worse sometimes then the lesser: it appeareth by the controversy between hAustin and iJerome, concerning the reproof of Peter: whether Paul rebuked him in earnest, as blameworthy; or dissembled with him, and made 1a dutiful lie, which Jerome termed 2an honest policy. For, k
your selves grant, that Austin (who thought that Paul reproved him in earnest) did judge therein more soundly & truly then Jerome did, who thought that he dissembled. Yet Jerome alleged more Fathers on his side▪ and made so great account of them, that
S. Austin replied, that peradventure he might find as many Fathers on his side, if he had read much. But I, saith he, have Paul the Apostle himself in stead of these all, and above these all. To him do I fly, to him I appeal from all the Doctors (his interpreters) who are of other minds. Of him do I ask, whereas he writeth to the Galatians, that he saw Peter not going with a right foot to the truth of the Gospel, and that he withstood him to his face for it, because by that dissembling he constrained the Gentiles to do like the Jews: whether he wrote true, or did lye perhaps
with I know not what politic falsehood. And I do hear him (a little before) making a very religious protestation, in the beginning of the same discourse, The things which I write unto you, behold, I witness before God, I lye not. Let them, who are of other minds, pardon me. I believe rather so great an Apostle, swearing in his own and for his own words, then any man be he never so learned, talking of the words of an other. A wise and free judgement, worthy of S. Austin. Whereby you may perceive that your rule of following the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures, is but a leaden rule, not fit which should be used to square out stones by, for building of the Lords temple.
Rainoldes. Then must you bidde your Schoolemen nowe adieu, and agree with vs in the diuision of the commandements; though we giue you Clemens (whom father Robert citeth) and three or foure voices more. Howbeit I can not vrge you to do it, vnlesse that you doo it vpon surer ground: because this ground is slabbie, and the rule vnsure for men to walke on. For, that the greater number of the Fathers expoundeth Scriptures woorse sometimes then the lesser: it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene hAustin and iIerom, concerning the reproofe of Peter: whether Paule rebuked him in earnest, as blameworthie; or dissembled with him, and made 1a duetifull lie, which Ierom termed 2an honest policie. For, kyour selues graunt, that Austin (who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest) did iudge therin more soundly & truely then Ierom did, who thought that he dissembled. Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side▪ and made so great account of them, that lhe desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre. Whereupon ⟨p. 78⟩mS. Austin replyed, that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side, if he had read much. But I, saith he, haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all, and aboue these all. To him do I flie, to him I appeale from all the Doctors (his interpreters) who are of other mindes. Of him do I aske, whereas he writeth to the Galatians, that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell, and that hee withstood him to his face for it, bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes: whether he wrote true, or did lye perhaps *with I know not what politike falshood. And I do heare him (a litle before) making a very religious protestation, in the beginning of the same discourse, The thynges whych I write vnto you, beholde, I witnes before God, I lye not. Let them, who are of other mindes, pardon me. I beleeue rather so great an Apostle, swearing in his owne and for his owne words, then anie man be he neuer so learned, talking of the words of an other. A wise and frée iudgement, worthie of S. Austin. Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures, is but a leaden rule, not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by, for building of the Lords temple.
hEpist. 19.
iEpist. 11. inter epistolas August.Epist. 11. i•ter epistolas August.
Hart. This of Austin showeth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers, and refuse their judgement. But that (as *Torrensis hath observed well) must be with two cautions. One, that the thing wherein we vary from them be a known truth. The other, that we do it with reverence and modesty.
Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers, and refuse their iudgement. But that (as *Torrensis hath obserued well) must bee with two cautions. One, that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth. The other, that we do it with reuerence and modestie.
Rainoldes. Uvith reverence and modesty? God forbid else. As nElihu reproved Job: as oPaul reproved Peter. But for the other caution: how shall we know a thing to be a known truth?
Rainoldes. UUith reuerence and modestie? God forbid else. As nElihu reproued Iob: as oPaule reproued Peter. But for the other caution: how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth?
Rainoldes. This bringeth us small help to the expounding of scriptures. For things may be true: and yet a place of scripture not applied truly and rightly to prove them. As it is plain in places, pthat have been applied by Christians against the Jews. But let it be a good way. What, if the faithful people ⟨p. 79⟩do dissent? As, in the question which we have in hand about the Popes supremacy, the people of the east church dissented from the west, many hundred years together. What shall we do then?
Rainoldes. This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures. For things may be true: and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them. As it is plaine in places, pthat haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes. But let it be a good way. UUhat, if the faithfull people ⟨p. 79⟩doo dissent? As, in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy, the people of the east church dissented from the west, many hundred yeares together. UUhat shall we doo then?
Hart. Then an other way (a better way to find it) *is the common testimony of the faithful Pastors, if they do decree it in a general council. As for the Popes supremacy they did in the *Council of Lateran.
Hart. Then an other way (a better way to finde it) *is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors, if they doo decrée it in a generall councell. As for the Popes supremacy they did in the *Councell of Lateran.
*Staplet. princip. doctr. lib. 7. cap. 8.
*Under Pope Innocent the third, capit. 5.Vnder Pope Innocent the third, capit. 5.
Rainoldes. The Bishops of the east church qsay that the Council of Lateran was not general: which the Pope him self doth acknowledge also, ras it is noted on your law. But here the former difficulties meet us again, and breed the same perplexity. For there are but few places of Scripture which general Councils have expounded: neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest. Again, although syou say that general Councils can not err in their conclusions: yet you say they may err in applying of Scriptures to prove their conclusions. Lastly, general Councils may dissent too: tas heretofore they have in a weighty point of faith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of, as our conference will show: you see that you have not yet resolved me. One question I must ask you more. In this case, when Councils say nothing of Scriptures; or misapply them, in proofs; or dissent, in conclusions: what are we to do?
Rainoldes. The Bishops of the east church qsay that the Councell of Lateran was not generall: which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also, ras it is noted on your law. But here the former difficulties méete vs againe, and bréede the same perplexitie. For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded: neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest. Againe, although syou say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions: yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions. Lastly, generall Councels may dissent too: tas heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of, as our conference will shew: you sée that you haue not yet resolued me. One question I must aske you more. In this case, when Councels say nothing of Scriptures; or misapply them, in proofes; or dissent, in conclusions: what are we to doo?
Hart. If Councils dissent, we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head. And (to answer all your questions in a word) whether with the Councils or without the Councils, that which the Head determineth, is a known truth: that which the Head condemneth is a known error.
Hart. If Councels dissent, we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head. And (to answere all your questions in a word) whether with the Councels or without the Councels, that which the Head determineth, is a knowne truth: that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour.
Rainoldes. Do you not see then by your own answers, that whatsoever show you make of Fathers and Councils: the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke? So that, (to bring it to the point in controversy) whereas our question is, whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church: you say, He is so. When we sift the matter, and seek the reasons, why: this is the sum of all, Because him self saith so. I thought, that ⟨p. 80⟩the church should have been your lawyer to expound your evidences: but now I perceive that you meant the Pope. He is the churches husband (belike) and in matters of law dealeth for her. I cannot blame you, though you be content to make him your judge too. For if he give sentence, in this cause, against you: I will never trust him.
Rainoldes. Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres, that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels: the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke? So that, (to bring it to the point in controuersie) whereas our question is, whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church: you say, He is so. UUhen we sift the matter, and séeke the reasons, why: this is the summe of all, Because him selfe saith so. I thought, that ⟨p. 80⟩the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences: but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope. Hée is the churches husband (belike) and in matters of law dealeth for her. I cannot blame you, though you be content to make him your iudge too. For if he giue sentence, in this cause, against you: I will neuer trust him.
Rainoldes. I do gather nothing, but that which you have scattered. For, you began to try this point touching the Pope by the words of Scripture. The words (we agree) decide by the sense: the sense must be tried (you say) by the Fathers: the Fathers by the truth: the truth by the people: the people by the Councils: the Councils by the Pope. If one of us should make but a semblance of such an answer: you would sport your selves with it, and call it a uCirculation, and 1cry against our impudency, & 2whoop at it like stage players. But you may dance such rounds, and yet persuade men that you go right forward with great sobriety and gravity.
Rainoldes. I doo gather nothing, but that which you haue scattered. For, you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture. The wordes (we agrée) decide by ye sense: ye sense must be tried (you say) by ye Fathers: the Fathers by ye truth: the truth by the people: the people by the Councels: the Councels by the Pope. If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere: you would sport your selues with it, and call it a uCirculation, and 1cry against our impudency, & 2whoope at it like stage players. But you may daunse such roundes, and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie.
Hart. Howsoever you dally with your circulations, & rounds, as you call them: I say no more, but this, that if a truth cannot be known otherwise, then the last mean to resolve us of it, is the Popes authority. But there needed not so much ado hereof, if I prove that Christ did give that supremacy (whereof we talked) to S. Peter.
Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations, & rounds, as you call them: I say no more, but this, that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise, then the last meane to resolue vs of it, is the Popes authoritie. But there néeded not so much adoo hereof, if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie (whereof we talked) to S. Peter.
Rainoldes. You can never prove that Christ did give it him, but by *the word of Christ, which is the holy scripture. And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense, not in the show of words. Wherefore, it was needful, sith we seek herein to find out Christs will, that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be known. Which, seeing you would have me to fetch from the Pope, and I have no lust to go unto Rome, nor think it lodgeth in 1the Vatican, so that by this way no agreement can be made, or end of controversy hoped for: I will take a shorter and a surer way, confessed by us both to be a good way, whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found, and so the will of Christ be known.
Rainoldes. You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him, but by *the word of Christ, which is the holie scripture. And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense, not in the shew of wordes. UUherefore, it was néedfull, sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will, that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne. UUhich, séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope, and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome, nor thinke it lodgeth in 1the Vatican, so yt by this way no agréement can be made, or ende of controuersie hoped for: I will take a shorter and a surer way, confessed by vs both to be a good way, whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found, and so the will of Christ be knowne.
