The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. But you have not proved that they were used through the whole world, either by S. Austin, or by S. Denis. oNay, that Denis (who so ever he were,) doth prove the contrary. For in his description of the Mass (as you call it) there are neither lights, nor vestments, nor crossings, nor all the other ceremonies: whereby it is manifest that they were not used through the whole world when that Denis wrote. As for incense, howsoever it crept into that Church in the which he lived: it appeareth by the writings of pTertullian, and qArnobius, that the Church used it not in their days. Neither is the censing, which Denis speaketh of, liker to yours: then (I ⟨p. 590⟩showed) your blessings are like to S. Austins. For rhe hath it only once about the Church. But in s
your solemn Mass it is used often, and to sundry things: to the cross, to relics, to images, to candlesticks, to the altar, the lower part of it, and the higher, to the Priests, to the book, to the bread and wine, thrice above the chalice, and the host, and thrice about them, to the altar, and the Priest again and again, to the quire, to the deacon, to the subdeacon, to the people; and, in Masses for the dead, to the sacrament also at the time of the elevation. So that, if the words of the
Trent-council be weighed with your practise: you will leese the countenance of that which Denis showeth to. For with him it is incense in the singular number. Your Masses and the Council hau•
incenses in the plural. By the which word if the Council meant to note all the censinges that are used in Massing, as they did of likelihood: then neither Denis maketh for your Massing-incense. Though, whatsoever he make, he maketh nought for your reason: because he proveth not that it was used through the whole world. Now the lights, which your Jesuit hath found in S.
of idolatrous Heathens, not of the Church of Christ.
Rainoldes. But you haue not proued that they were vsed through the whole world, either by S. Austin, or by S. Denys. oNay, that Denys (who so euer he were,) doth proue the contrarie. For in his description of the Masse (as you call it) there are neither lightes, nor vestiments, nor crossinges, nor all the other ceremonies: whereby it is manifest that they were not vsed through the whole world when that Denys wrote. As for incense, howsoeuer it crept into that Church in the which he liued: it appeereth by the writinges of pTertullian, and qArnobius, that the Church vsed it not in their dayes. Neither is the censing, which Denys speaketh of, liker to yours: then (I ⟨p. 590⟩shewed) your blessinges are like to S. Austins. For rhe hath it onely once aboute the Church. But in syour solemne Masse it is vsed often, and to sundrie thinges: to the crosse, to relikes, to images, to candlestickes, to the altar, the lower part of it, and the higher, to the Priestes, to the booke, to the bread and wine, thrise aboue the chalice, and the host, and thrise about them, to the altar, and the Priest againe and againe, to the quire, to the deacon, to the subdeacon, to the people; and, in Masses for the dead, to the sacrament also at the time of the eleuation. So that, if the wordes of the tTrent-councell be weighed with your practise: you will léese the countenance of that which Denys sheweth to. For with him it is incense in the singular number. Your Masses and the Councell hau•*incenses in the plurall. By the which word if the Councell meant to note all the censinges that are vsed in Massing, as they did of likelyhood: then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense. Though, whatsoeuer he make, he maketh nought for your reason: because he proueth not that it was vsed through the whole world. Now the lights, which your Iesuite hath founde in S. uAustin, make lesse a greate deale for it. For S. xAustin calleth the lights which they vsed, 1 lightes of the night: because they did vse them in the night time when they met at prayers, yas Christians were wont. But your Massing-lights are vsed in the day time, when the sunne shineth: a thing perhaps obserued through the whole world, but zof idolatrous Heathens, not of the Church of Christ.
Hart. Yes, that Christian Churches had also lights burning in the bright sun-shine while the gospel was reading, S. aJerome is a witness; and, before S. Jerome, his Master bNazianzen maketh mention of it; and cAthanasius before them both. Wherefore out of doubt it is an ancient custom, and that very general.
Hart. Yes, that Christian Churches had also lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine while the gospel was reading, S. aIerom is a witnesse; and, before S. Ierom, his Maister bNazianzen maketh mention of it; and cAthanasius before them both. Wherefore out of dout it is an ancient custome, and that very generall.
Rainoldes. As you say: if it be witnessed by these three Doctors, S. Jerome of Europe, Nazianzen of Asia, & Athanasius of Africa. But he who saith they witness it, hath not read them, I think.
Rainoldes. As you say: if it be witnessed by these thrée Doctors, S. Ierom of Europe, Nazianzen of Asia, & Athanasius of Afrike. But he who saith they witnesse it, hath not read them, I thinke.
Hart. But I think he hath: or rather I am sure of it. For D. dStapleton saith it, in his comparison of the Catholic and Roman Churches Mass with the Lords supper of the ⟨p. 591⟩Protestants. Wherein as he allegeth these Doctors for this point: so he proveth all things, which your Supper wanteth and our Mass hath, to be Apostolic.
Hart. But I thinke he hath: or rather I am sure of it. For D. dStapleton saith it, in his comparison of the Catholike and Roman Churches Masse with the Lordes supper of the ⟨p. 591⟩Protestants. Wherin as he allegeth these Doctors for this point: so he proueth all things, which your Supper wanteth and our Masse hath, to be Apostolike.
Rainoldes. He proveth? Nay he promiseth to prove them Apostolic. For in very truth he proveth not one: not one of all those things wherein your Mass differeth from our Lords supper. No more then he proveth this of lights burning in the bright sun-shine: in the which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to prove it. For in cAthanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned only: but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospel was reading, there is no such word. bNazianzene speaketh of lights that were burning upon Easter-even: but 2to lighten the night, he saith, not the day.
Rainoldes. He proueth? Nay he promiseth to proue them Apostolike. For in verie truth he proueth not one: not one of all those things wherein your Masse differeth from our Lords supper. No more then he proueth this of lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine: in ye which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to proue it. For in cAthanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned onely: but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospell was reading, there is no such word. bNazianzene speaketh of lightes that were burning vpon Easter-euen: but 2to lighten the night, he saith, not the day.
Rainoldes. They were wont afterward. But we speak of Nazianzene. And he meant nothing less. For by [the light] he signified Christ, ethe light of the world: and by [f the candle] John Baptist▪gwho went before Christ to prepare his ways. The light (saith he) shining most excellently bright followeth the candle that did go before it; and hthe word, ithe voice; and kthe bridegroom, 3the bride man, or friend who bringeth the bride to him. Is this D. Stapletons proof out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time?
Rainoldes. They were wont afterward. But we speake of Nazianzene. And he meant nothing lesse. For by [the light] he signified Christ, ethe light of the world: and by [f the candle] Iohn Baptist▪gwho went before Christ to prepare his wayes. The light (saith he) shining most excellently bright foloweth the candle that did go before it; and hthe word, ithe voice; and kthe bridegrome, 3the bride man, or frend who bringeth the bride to him. Is this D. Stapletons proofe out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time?
Rainoldes. Yet these are S. Jeromes own words in athat treatise: We do light 4tapers not in the bright•day-time, as thou dost vainly slander us, but by this comfort to ease the darkness of the night.
Rainoldes. Yet these are S. Ieroms owne words in athat treatise: We doo light 4tapers not in the bright•day-time, as thou doost vainely sclaunder vs, but by this comfort to ease the darknes of the night.
Rainoldes. But nether this usage of the eastern Churches was the same that yours is. For they did keep lights, while the gospel was reading, and put them out after: which rite lyou had also, and some where have perhaps yet. But the general rite which you have gotten now of burning tapers still, before the gospel, and after: that in S. Jeromes time not only was unborn in the we••, but in the •ast too. Though if the east had used it: yet nether were it proved so (by your reason) that the Apostles did ordain it, because it was not used in the western Churches, & therefore not through the whole world. Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should use it. For mTertullian saith: let them light candles daily who have no light; 5the testimonies of darkness do well beseem them.
Rainoldes. But nether this vsage of the easterne Churches was the same that yours is. For they did kéepe lightes, while the gospel was reading, and put them out after: which rite lyou had also, and some where haue perhaps yet. But the generall rite which you haue gotten now of burning tapers still, before the gospell, and after: that in S. Ieroms time not onely was vnborne in the we••, but in the •ast too. Though if the east had vsed it: yet nether were it proued so (by your reason) that the Apostles did ordeine it, because it was not vsed in the westerne Churches, & therfore not through the whole world. Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should vse it. For mTertullian saith: let them light candels dayly who haue no light; 5the testimonies of darkenes doo well beseeme them.
lOrdo Roman. de divin. offic. cap. de officio Missae. Durand. in Ration. divin. offic. lib. 4. cap. 24.Ordo Roman. de diuin. offic. cap. de officio Missae. Durand. in Ration. diuin. offic. lib. 4. cap. 24.
Rainoldes. Not while you are able to say with nthe Pharisees, Are we blind also? But sith there were so ancient Churches which lighted candles in the bright sun-shine: that may be some colour for your Massing-lights. For your Massing-vestments not so much can be found. Yet othey are also fathered on the tradition of the Apostles.
Rainoldes. Not while you are able to say with nthe Pharises, Are we blinde also? But sith there were so ancient Churches which lighted candels in the bright sunne-shine: that may be some colour for your Massing-lights. For your Massing-vestiments not so much can be found. Yet othey are also fathered on the tradition of the Apostles.
