The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. The aFathers do commonly use the word [sacrament] for a mystery or sign of a holy thing. And so you may prove seven and twenty sacraments by them, as well as seven. Which is manifest by S. bAustin, whom you pretend herein most. For as he giveth the name of sacrament to cmarriage, to dthe ordering of ministers, to elaying on of hands, and freconciling of the repentant: so he giveth it to gEaster, and to the Lords day, hto the sanctifying and iinstructing of novices in the faith, the feeding, the signing, the catechizing of them, the making of prayers, the singing of Psalms, and so forth to other holy rites and actions. But as the word [sacrament] is taken in a straiter signification, to note the visible signs instituted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithful, which is the sense of it both with kyou, and lus, when we speak of sacraments: so doth mhe name those two, as principal ones, by an excellency; and, when nthere issued blood and water out of Christs side, o
the two sacraments (saith he) of the Church, meaning the Lords supper by blood, by water baptism. Yea, the Schoolmen them selves, who were the first authors that did raise them up to the precise number of seven, no more, nor fewer; for you ••nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoever before a thousand years after Christ: but the Schoolmen them selves have showed that the seven are not all sacraments, if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly. For neither can marriage so be of the number, as
which Christ himself did institute: so that (by his confession) as we speak of sacraments, there are two only. But my meaning was not to blame you for seven. I spake of all your ceremonies, which are (I may say boldly) seventy times seven.
⟨p. 603⟩
Which whether that they be so few, and so clear in comparison of the Jewish, as I have declared and you confess that Christian ceremonies should be: let the learned judge by comparing of your Church-books, chiefly the
the books of Moses. Let the unlearned guess by the store and strangeness of sacrificing vestments:
Rainoldes. The aFathers doo commonly vse the word [sacrament] for a mystery or signe of a holy thing. And so you may proue seuen and twentie sacraments by them, as well as seuen. Which is manifest by S. bAustin, whom you pretend herein most. For as he giueth the name of sacrament to cmariage, to dthe ordering of ministers, to elaying on of hands, and freconci••ng of the repentant: so he giueth it to gEaster, and to the Lords day, hto the sanctifying and iinstructing of nouices in the faith, the feeding, the signing, the catechizing of them, the making of prayers, the singing of Psalmes, and so forth to other holy rites and actions. But as the worde [sacrament] is taken in a straiter signification, to note the visible signes inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithfull, which is the sense of it both with kyou, and lvs, when we speake of sacraments: so doth mhe name those two, as principall ones, by an excellencie; and, when nthere issued blood and water out of Christes side, othese are *the two sacraments (saith he) of the Church, meaning the Lordes supper by blood, by water baptisme. Yea, the Schoolemen them selues, who were the first autours that did raise them vp to the precise number of seuen, no more, nor fewer; for you ••nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoeuer before a thousand yeares after Christ: but the Schoolemen them selues haue shewed that the seuen are not all sacraments, if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly. For neither can mariage so be of the number, as pDurand proueth well: neither confirmation (the chrisme of oyle and balme) as qBonauenture teacheth. And, to be short, their captaine rAlexander of Ales doth auouch expressely, that there are 1onely two principal sacraments, 2which Christ himselfe did institute: so that (by his confession) as we speake of sacraments, there are two only. But my meaning was not to blame you for seuen. I spake of all your ceremonies, which are (I may say boldly) seuentie times seuen. ⟨p. 603⟩Which whether that they be so few, and so cléere in comparison of the Iewish, as I haue declared and you confesse that Christian ceremonies should be: let the learned iudge by comparing of your Church-bookes, chiefly the sCeremoniall, tPontificall, and uMissall, with xthe bookes of Moses. Let the vnlearned gesse by the store and straungenesse of sacrificing vestiments:
aTertullian. aduers. Judae. & contr. Marcion. lib. 5. Hilar. in Matthae. can. 12. & 13. Leo epist. 10.11.12.13. & passim.Tertullian. aduers. Iudae. & contr. Marcion. lib. 5. Hilar. in Matthae. can. 12. & 13. Leo epist. 10.11.12.13. & passim.
bEpist. 5. ad Marcellin. De civit. Dei lib. 10. cap. 5. Contr. aduers. leg. & Prophetarum lib. 2. cap. 9.Epist. 5. ad Marcellin. De ciuit. Dei lib. 10. cap. 5. Contr. aduers. leg. & Prophetarum lib. 2. cap. 9.
cAugust. de bono coniug. c. 18.
dContr. epist. Parmenian. lib. 2. cap. 13.
eDe baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 5. cap. 20.
fDe adulteri•. coniug. cap. 26. & 28.
gEpist. 23. ad Bonifacium.
hDe peccat. merit. & remission. l. 2. cap. 26.
iDe symb. ad ca•echumen. lib. 4. cap. 1.
kConcil. Trident. Sess. 7. in pro•m. & de Sacrament. in gen. can. 1.
lArticuli religion. eccles. Anglican. cap. de Sacramentis.
mDe doctrin. Christian. l. 3. c. 9. Epist. 11•. ad Januar▪ cap. 1.De doctrin. Christian. l. 3. c. 9. Epist. 11•. ad Ianuar▪ cap. 1.
sSacrarum ceremoniarum Romanae ecclesiae libri tres.
tPontifical Romanum in tres distinctum parts.Pontificale Romanum in tres distinctum partes.
uMissal Romanum, in rubricis Missalis, ritibus celebrā di Missam, & defectibus circa Missam occurrent•bus.Missale Romanum, in rubricis Missalis, ritibus celebrā di Missam, & defectibus circa Missam occurrent•bus.
xExodus, Leviticus, and Numbers.Exodus, Leuiticus, and Numbers.
whereof ytheir common Priests had three, yours have six; their high Priest had eight, your Bishops have fifteen at least, and some sixteen, beside zthe Popes prerogative-robes. And so, to leave this matter to their consideration: your own confession, yieldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachi. For if the spiritual worshipping of God, wherewith the Jews did serve him, had ceremonies in number more, in signification darker, then it hath amongst the Gentiles: this kind of serving him with fewer ceremonies & clearer is proper to the Gentiles, & might succeed that which was amongst the Jews. Wherefore D. Allen's third, & fourth reasons, whereby he would prove that the offering spoken of in Malachi the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Mass, and not spiritual sacrifices, can take no hold against us. No more then ours could take against you of the contrary, if we should conclude that it must betoken a spiritual worship not outward offerings on an altar, because outward offerings are common to the Jews with us, and this is proper to the Gentiles: and this should succeed the Jewish worship of God, and come in stead of it, which no outward offerings and sacrifices can do, sith they are coupled always to Gods spiritual worship. Would you allow these reasons?
whereof ytheir common Priests had thrée, yours haue sixe; their high Priest had eight, your Bishops haue fiftéene at least, and some sixtéene, beside zthe Popes prerogatiue-robes. And so, to leaue this matter to their consideration: your owne confession, yeldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachie. For if the spiritual worshipping of God, wherewith the Iewes did serue him, had ceremonies in number more, in signification darker, then it hath amongst the Gentiles: this kinde of seruing him with fewer ceremonies & cléerer is proper to the Gentils, & might succeede that which was amongst the Iewes. Wherefore D. Allens third, & fourth reasons, whereby he would proue that the offering spokē of in Malachie the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Masse, and not spirituall sacrifices, can take no holde against vs. No more then ours could take against you of the contrarie, if we should conclude that it must betoken a spirituall worship not outward offeringes on an altar, because outward offeringes are common to the Iewes with vs, and this is proper to the Gentiles: and this should succéede the Iewish worship of God, and come in steede of it, which no outward offeringes and sacrifices can doo, sith they are coopled alwayes to Gods spirituall worship. Would you allow these reasons?
Hart. They are not like to D. Allens. But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt. For, (in the judgement chiefly of heretics,) 1our works are defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: but that 2Prophetical offering is clean of it self, and so clean of it self in comparison of the old sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted any way by us or by the worst Priests. For here in our testament, they can not choose all the best to them selves, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the feeble, the lame, and the sick, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it can not be changed; so clean, that no work of ours can distaine it.
Hart. They are not like to D. Allens. But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt. For, (in the iudgement chiefly of heretikes,) 1our workes are defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: but that 2Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe, and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices, that it cannot be polluted any way by vs or by the worst Priests. For here in our testament, they can not choose all the best to them selues, and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble, the lame, and the sicke, as before in the old: because there is now one sacrifice so appointed, that it can not be changed; so cleane, that no worke of ours can distaine it.
1Nostra opera sunt inquinata, utcunque speciosa vide antur.Nostra opera sunt inquinata, vtcunque speciosa vide antur.
Rainoldes. And think you M. Hart, that the works of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh ⟨p. 604⟩of, because they are defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful? Think you thus in deed? Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion (which God grant you do) with heretics, as you term us. For, if our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful, chiefly as heretics judge: then are men justified by faith, not by works. If our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: then fulfil we not the law of God perfectly, much less super-erogate. If our works be defiled, howsoever they seem beautiful: then are they meritorious of everlasting death, but everlasting life it is impossible they should merit.
Rainoldes. And thinke you M. Hart, that the workes of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh ⟨p. 604⟩of, because they are defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull? Thinke you thus in déede? Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion (which God graunt you doo) with heretikes, as you terme vs. For, if our workes be defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull, chiefly as heretikes iudge: then are men iustified by faith, not by workes. If our workes bee defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: then fulfill we not the law of God perfitly, much lesse super-erogate. If our works be defiled, howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull: then are they meritorious of euerlasting death, but euerlasting life it is impossible they should merit.
Hart. Nay, I meant not so. For though they be defiled, as they are of our selves: yet as they are of Christ, whose grace worketh in us, they are pure and perfect.
Hart. Nay, I meant not so. For though they be defiled, as they are of our selues: yet as they are of Christ, whose grace worketh in vs, they are pure and perfit.
Rainoldes. Then, as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, so they may be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of. For they are pure and perfect so, and therefore clean by your own opinion.
Rainoldes. Then, as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, so they may be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of. For they are pure and perfit so, and therefore cleane by your owne opinion.
Hart. But the Prophetical offering is clean of it self. Our works are not clean of them selves, but of Christ: and therefore can not be that offering.
Hart. But the Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe. Our workes are not cleane of them selues, but of Christ: and therefore can not be that offering.
Rainoldes. Now may you feel the falsehood of D. Allen's dealing. For himself addeth those words [* of it self,] to make his reason serve: the Prophet saith no more but that athe offering is clean. Wherefore sith our works are clean and undefiled; chiefly as Papists judge: our works might be meant by the Prophetical offering, howsoever they be unperfect and impure of them selves.
Rainoldes. Now may you féele the falshood of D. Allens dealing. For himselfe addeth those words [* of it selfe,] to make his reason serue: the Prophet saith no more but that athe offering is cleane. Wherefore sith our workes are cleane and vndefiled; chiefly as Papistes iudge: our workes might be meant by the Propheticall offering, howsoeuer they be vnperfit and impure of them selues.
Hart. What? And do you think, M. Rainoldes, that our works, though unclean of them selves, yet as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, are clean and undefiled? And see you not then, that of the other side you consent in the chiefest point of Catholic faith with Papists, as you term us? For if you think in deed that our works be clean, as they are wrought by grace: then must you needs think that we may so fulfil the law, and merit life, and be justified by works, not by faith only.
Hart. What? And doo you thinke, M. Rainoldes, that our workes, though vncleane of them selues, yet as they are wrought by the grace of Christ, are cleane and vndefiled? And see you not then, that of the other side you consent in the chiefest point of Catholike faith with Papists, as you terme vs? For if you thinke in deede that our workes bee cleane, as they are wrought by grace: then must you néedes thinke that we may so fulfil the law, and merit life, and be iustified by workes, not by faith onely.
Rainoldes. I meant not so, M. Hart. But according to the proverb, that for a hard knot a hard wedge must be sought, ⟨p. 605⟩I thought good to cleave a Popish dream in sunder with a Popish fancy. For otherwise, I know, that, although our works be wrought by Christs grace: yet is mans nature and flesh in us who work them, and therefore do they carry a stain of uncleanness. It was of grace, that the children of Israel did consecrate their holy things and gifts to God. Yet that work of theirs was not free from spot: in so much that bAaron must bear on his forehead a plate of pure gold, wherein was engraven, Holiness of the Lord, (a monument of Christ) cthat he might take away the iniquity of 1the holy things which they consecrated, of all the gifts of their holy things; and he should bear it always to make them acceptable before the Lord. It is of grace, that the Saints of God do pray to him. Yet, dthe other Angel, that stood before the altar with a golden censer, had much odours given him 2that he might put them into the prayers of all the Saints upon the golden altar which is before the throne, and the smoke of the odours put into the prayers went up before God out of the Angels hand. Which is a token that the prayers of Saints have their infirmity: and yield no sweet smelling favour unto God, without favour in Christ. To be short, in all the gracious and good works of men, eGod doth work in us both to will, and to do. But fevil is so present with us, that gthe good which we would do, we can not: we would, through Gods grace; we can not, through our frailty. Yea, when we do good, it is a will rather of doing, then a doing; we are so far from perfect doing it. For we ought to hlove God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our strength, & with all our thought: and our neighbours, as our selves. But as long as ithe flesh doth lust against the spirit, and ka law in our members doth rebel against the law of our mind; which is as long as we are in lthis body of death: we love him not with all our heart, soul, strength, and thought, but with part; and therefore in lesser measure, then we ought. Now, whatsoever is less, then it should be, is faulty: for it transgresseth mhis commandment. Wherefore sith our works should be done with perfect love of God and men, and that perfect love we have not in this life:
Rainoldes. I meant not so, M. Hart. But according to the prouerbe, that for a hard knot a hard wedge must be sought, ⟨p. 605⟩I thought good to cleaue a Popish dreame in sunder with a Popish fansy. For otherwise, I know, that, although our workes be wrought by Christes grace: yet is mans nature and flesh in vs who worke them, and therefore doo they cary a staine of vncleannes. It was of grace, that the children of Israel did consecrate their holy thinges and giftes to God. Yet that worke of theirs was not frée from spot: in so much that bAaron must beare on his forhead a plate of pure gold, wherein was ingrauen, Holines of the Lord, (a monument of Christ) cthat hee might take away the iniquitie of 1the holy thinges which they consecrated, of all the giftes of their holy thinges; and he should beare it alwayes to make them acceptable before the Lord. It is of grace, that the Saintes of God doo pray to him. Yet, dthe other Angel, that stoode before the altar with a golden censer, had much odours giuen him 2that hee might put them into the prayers of all the Saintes vpon the golden altar which is before the throne, and the smoke of the odours put into the prayers went vp before God out of the Angels hand. Which is a token that the prayers of Saintes haue their infirmitie: and yeelde no sweete smelling fauour vnto God, without fauour in Christ. To be short, in all the gratious and good workes of men, eGod doth worke in vs both to will, and to doo. But feuill is so present with vs, that gthe good which we would doo, we can not: wee would, through Gods grace; we can not, through our frailtie. Yea, when we doo good, it is a will rather of dooing, then a dooing; we are so farre from perfit dooing it. For wee ought to hloue God with all our heart, and with all our soule, and with all our strength, & with al our thought: and our neighbours, as our selues. But as long as
it followeth that our works in this life are faulty; yea, though they […] ⟨p. 606⟩wrought by the grace of Christ. Not as though his grace had any blemish, (God forbid;) but because our selves, in whom it worketh, are corrupt: as water, though it flow from a fountain most clear, yet, if it do run through a muddy channel, it becometh muddy. So nether fulfil we the law in any work, much less in all our works, which they must do, who will fulfil it; for nhe that offendeth in one, is guilty of all: nether can we merit ought at Gods hands, much less eternal life; for ohe oweth us no thanks pthough we did all things which are commanded us, because we ought to do them; and what is our desert then, who do not all things? nether may we possibly be justified by works before the judgement seat of God; for qcursed is every man that continueth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law, to do them, and rwe all offend in many things.
it foloweth that our workes in this life are fautie; yea, though they 〈…〉⟨p. 606⟩wrought by the grace of Christ. Not as though his grace had any blemish, (God forbidde;) but because our selues, in whom it worketh, are corrupt: as water, though it flow from a fountaine most cléere, yet, if it doo runne through a muddy chanell, it becommeth muddy. So nether fulfill we the law in any worke, much lesse in all our workes, which they must doo, who will fulfill it; for nhe that offendeth in one, is guiltie of all: nether can we merit ought at Gods hands, much lesse eternall life; for ohe oweth vs no thankes pthough we did all thinges which are commaunded vs, because we ought to do them; and what is our desert then, who doo not all things? nether may wee possibly be iustified by workes before the iudgement seat of God; for qcursed is euery man that continueth not in all things, which are written in the booke of the law, to doo them, and rwe all offend in many things.
Hart. But if all our works be muddy, as you say, and stained with uncleanness: then is it much surer that the clean offering, which the Prophet speaketh off, cannot betoken them. For the Lord reproveth the Jewish Priests there for soffering unclean bread, and sacrificing the blind, the lame, and the sick. Wherefore sith of the contrary he saith that the offering made among the Gentiles shall be a clean offering: it followeth that he meant not the spiritual sacrifices, that is, the works of Christians; and what then, but the outward sacrifice of the Mass?
Hart. But if all our workes be muddy, as you say, and stained with vncleannesse: then is it much surer that the cleane offering, which the Prophet speaketh off, cannot betoken them. For the Lord reproueth the Iewish Priests there for soffering vncleane bread, and sacrificing the blinde, the lame, and the sicke. Wherefore sith of the contrarie he saith that the offering made among the Gentiles shall be a cleane offering: it foloweth that he meant not the spirituall sacrifices, that is, the workes of Christians; and what then, but the outward sacrifice of the Masse?
Rainoldes. In deed if clean things stained with uncleanness were the very same that unclean things: you might justly think that our spiritual sacrifices could not be allowed, no more then the carnal of those Jewish Priests. But the only sacrifice that is clean perfectly, and hath no stain at all, is tChrist, the undefiled and unspotted Lamb, uoffered on the cross to sanctify us with his blood. The sacrifices of the faithful are clean, but unperfectly: and therefore need his favour, with pardon, (as I showed,) that they may be xacceptable to God through Jesus Christ. The sacrifices of the wicked, and hypocrites, are unclean: as being either unlawful, such as were ythe blind, and lame, and sick among the Jews; or offered unlawfully, with zminds and consciences defiled. So the sacrifices of those Jewish Priests, which God ⟨p. 607⟩reproveth, were absolutely unclean. Our spiritual sacrifices are unperfectly clean: clean in comparison, and clean by acceptation. Clean in comparison & respect of men: as Habakkuk complaining that athe wicked man devoureth the righteous, saith, *him that is righteous in respect of him self; praising not the righteous man as simply righteous, but in comparison of the wicked. Clean by acceptation in the sight of God: who dealing as a loving father with his children, taketh in good part that which they do willingly, though they do it weakly. For as bhe accepted the sacrifices of the Jews, when they offered the best and soundest that they had: so when cthe Gentiles were brought him for an offering, in like sort as the Israelites do offer an offering in a clean vessel, dthe offering up of them was acceptable to him. And thus might the spiritual sacrifices of Christians be meant by the clean offering, whereof the Lord saith in the Prophet Malachi that it shall be offered to him in every place. According to the scripture, that instructeth us eto pray in every place, lifting up pure hands without wrath, and doubting. For though nether our prayers be so entire and fervent, nor our hands so pure, and unspotted of the world, nor our minds so settled in love of our neighbour, nor our faith so constant, and steadfast towards God, but that they be stained with remnants of uncleanness, and have less perfectness then they should:
Rainoldes. In déede if cleane things stained with vncleannesse were the verie same that vncleane things: you might iustly thinke that our spirituall sacrifices could not be allowed, no more then the carnall of those Iewish Priests. But the onely sacrifice that is cleane perfitly, and hath no staine at all, is tChrist, the vndefiled and vnspotted Lambe, uoffered on the crosse to sanctifie vs with his blood. The sacrifices of the faithfull are cleane, but vnperfitly: and therefore néede his fauour, with pardon, (as I shewed,) that they may be xacceptable to God through Iesus Christ. The sacrifices of the wicked, and hypocrites, are vncleane: as being either vnlawfull, such as were ythe blinde, and lame, and sicke among the Iewes; or offered vnlawfully, with zmindes and consciences defiled. So the sacrifices of those Iewish Priests, which God ⟨p. 607⟩reproueth, were absolutely vncleane. Our spirituall sacrifices are vnperfitly cleane: cleane in comparison, and cleane by acceptation. Cleane in comparison & respect of men: as Habacuk complaining that athe wicked man deuouteth the righteous, saith, *him that is righteous in respect of him selfe; praysing not the righteous man as simply righteous, but in comparison of the wicked. Cleane by acceptation in the sight of God: who dealing as a louing father with his children, taketh in good part that which they doo willingly, though they doo it weakely. For as bhe accepted the sacrifices of the Iewes, when they offered the best and soundest that they had: so when cthe Gentiles were brought him for an offering, in like sort as the Israelites doo offer an offering in a cleane vessell, dthe offering vp of them was acceptable to him. And thus might the spirituall sacrifices of Christians be meant by the cleane offering, whereof the Lord saith in the Prophet Malachie that it shall be offered to him in euerie place. According to the scripture, that instructeth vs
yet are they all clean in respect of fthe sacrifices of those Jewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet rejecteth as gunclean; and so, where he hrefuseth to accept theirs, he ipromiseth to accept ours, and showeth that kthey please him well. Wherefore the Mass findeth no footing in Malachi by D. Allen's fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Mass in full possession of the clean offering mentioned by Malachi: doth dispossess it clean and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our lspiritual sacrifices, of mprayers, of nthanks giving, of oholiness, of pgodly works, of qrepentant hearts, of rcleansed minds, and bodies sanctified, of sthe gifts offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of tthe whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they mean the sacrifice of the Mass by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spiritual sacrifice, ⟨p. 608⟩as he •aith they do, and that they call it so because 1the victim, that is here, hath not a gross, carnal, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victims of the Jews: it is gross, and carnal. For the victim, (as you term it) which they mean, and speak of, is either uour selves, purified by faith; o•xour fruits, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed unto God his Father, which is your Massing-victim, pure of it self, and purifying others, as you fancy. Yea, sith it is granted by D. yAllen's own words, that Austin, expounding it of the sacrifice of praise, meaneth not the sacrifice of the Mass thereby: let zthat place of Austin he weighed with the rest of ahis and bother Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachi toucheth not the Mass in their judgement, by D. Allen's own grant. The six reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as 2strong, and very good, for the proof thereof, prove it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then do his bare words out of the Apostles in the new. In deed there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps him self hath espied, since he wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Mass.
yet are they all cleane in respect of fthe sacrifices of those Iewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet reiecteth as gvncleane; and so, where he hrefuseth to accept theirs, he ipromiseth to accept ours, and sheweth that kthey please him well. Wherefore the Masse findeth no footing in Malachie by D. Allens fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Masse in full possession of the cleane offering mentioned by Malachie: doth dispossesse it cleane and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our lspirituall sacrifices, of mprayers, of nthankes giuing, of oholinesse, of pgodly works, of qrepentant heartes, of rclensed mindes, and bodies sanctified, of sthe giftes offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of tthe whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they meane the sacrifice of the Masse by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spirituall sacrifice, ⟨p. 608⟩as he •aith they doo, and that they call it so because
For in his Apology of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proof of it, that he could, for the defence of Mass-priests, and the Mass-priests Nurseries,) che citeth not the scriptures, but the Fathers only. Which, unless he thought that the scriptures fail him, I see not why he should. Chiefly, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of Mass-priests, & the Mass he seeketh specially to win by his Apology, do give greater credit to five words of God then to ten thousand words of men.
For in his Apologie of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proofe of it, that he could, for the defense of Masse-priests, and the Masse-priests Nourseries,) che citeth not the scriptures, but the Fathers onely. Which, vnlesse hée thought that the scriptures faile him, I sée not why hee should. Chiefly, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of Masse-priests, & the Masse he séeketh specially to winne by his Apologie, doo giue greater credit to fiue words of God then to ten thousand words of men.
cThe Apology of the English Seminaries chapt. 6.The Apologie of the English Seminaries chapt. 6.
Hart. Nay, you are deceived much in D. Allen, if you think his judgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apology he citeth the Fathers only, not the scriptures, because you have colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were Mass-priests themselves, and said Mass.
Hart. Nay, you are deceued much in D. Allen, if you think his iudgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apologie he citeth the Fathers onely, not the scriptures, because you haue colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were Masse-priestes themselues, and said Masse.
this body of death: we loue him not with all our heart, soule, strength, and thought, but with part; and therefore in lesser measure, then we ought. Now, whatsoeuer is lesse, then it should be, is fautie: for it transgresseth
to pray in euerie place, lifting vp pure hands without wrath, and douting. For though nether our prayers be so intier and feruent, nor our hands so pure, and vnspotted of the world, nor our mindes so setled in loue of our neighbour, nor our faith so constant, and stedfast towards God, but that they be stained with remnants of vncleannes, and haue lesse perfitnes then they should:
the victime, that is here, hath not a grosse, carnall, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victimes of the Iewes: it is grosse, and carnall. For the victime, (as you terme it) which they meane, and speake of, is either
our fruites, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed vnto God his Father, which is your Massing-uictime, pure of it selfe, and purifying others, as you fansie. Yea, sith it is granted by D.
other Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachie toucheth not the Masse in their iudgement, by D. Allens owne graunt. The sixe reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as
strong, and very good, for the proofe thereof, proue it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then doo his bare wordes out of the Apostles in the new. In déede there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps him selfe hath espied, since hee wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse.
1Vic••ma hic existens. Victima is a live thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applieth to the sacrifice of the Mass, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de ••charist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver• mactatur, ac immolatur.Vic••ma hic existens. Victima is a liue thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applyeth to the sacrifice of the Masse, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de ••charist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver• mactatur, ac immolatur.
