The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
yet are they all clean in respect of fthe sacrifices of those Jewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet rejecteth as gunclean; and so, where he hrefuseth to accept theirs, he ipromiseth to accept ours, and showeth that kthey please him well. Wherefore the Mass findeth no footing in Malachi by D. Allen's fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Mass in full possession of the clean offering mentioned by Malachi: doth dispossess it clean and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our lspiritual sacrifices, of mprayers, of nthanks giving, of oholiness, of pgodly works, of qrepentant hearts, of rcleansed minds, and bodies sanctified, of sthe gifts offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of tthe whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they mean the sacrifice of the Mass by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spiritual sacrifice,
the victim, that is here, hath not a gross, carnal, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victims of the Jews: it is gross, and carnal. For the victim, (as you term it) which they mean, and speak of, is either
our fruits, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed unto God his Father, which is your Massing-victim, pure of it self, and purifying others, as you fancy. Yea, sith it is granted by D.
other Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachi toucheth not the Mass in their judgement, by D. Allen's own grant. The six reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as
strong, and very good, for the proof thereof, prove it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then do his bare words out of the Apostles in the new. In deed there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps him self hath espied, since he wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Mass.
yet are they all cleane in respect of fthe sacrifices of those Iewish hypocrites, which God in the Prophet reiecteth as gvncleane; and so, where he hrefuseth to accept theirs, he ipromiseth to accept ours, and sheweth that kthey please him well. Wherefore the Masse findeth no footing in Malachie by D. Allens fifth reason. Now the sixth, and last, which he concludeth with, as it were to set the Masse in full possession of the cleane offering mentioned by Malachie: doth dispossesse it cleane and casteth out the reasons which he brought to strengthen it. For the Fathers expound it of our lspirituall sacrifices, of mprayers, of nthankes giuing, of oholinesse, of pgodly works, of qrepentant heartes, of rclensed mindes, and bodies sanctified, of sthe giftes offered in Christian Church-assemblies, and of tthe whole worship wherewith we honour him in spirit and truth. Wherein to say that they meane the sacrifice of the Masse by the sacrifice of prayer, and the spirituall sacrifice, ⟨p. 608⟩as he •aith they doo, and that they call it so because 1the victime, that is here, hath not a grosse, carnall, and bloody consecration or sacrification, as had the victimes of the Iewes: it is grosse, and carnall. For the victime, (as you terme it) which they meane, and speake of, is either uour selues, purified by faith; o•xour fruites, accepted as pure from persons purified: not Christ, killed, and sacrificed vnto God his Father, which is your Massing-uictime, pure of it selfe, and purifying others, as you fansie. Yea, sith it is granted by D. yAllens owne words, that Austin, expounding it of the sacrifice of praise, meaneth not the sacrifice of the Masse thereby: let zthat place of Austin he weighed with the rest of ahis and bother Fathers, and it shall be found that Malachie toucheth not the Masse in their iudgement, by D. Allens owne graunt. The sixe reasons therefore which he setteth forth, as 2strong, and very good, for the proofe thereof, proue it no better out of the Prophets in the old testament: then doo his bare wordes out of the Apostles in the new. In déede there is no letter through all the scriptures for it. And thus much perhaps him selfe hath espied, since hee wrote his treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse.
tTheodoret. in Malach. cap. 1. Cyrill. de adorat. in spirit. & verit.
1Vic••ma hic existens. Victima is a live thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applieth to the sacrifice of the Mass, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de ••charist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver• mactatur, ac immolatur.Vic••ma hic existens. Victima is a liue thing killed to be sacrificed. Which word he applyeth to the sacrifice of the Masse, because he maintaineth that Christ there is killed and sacrificed to God his father. Alan. de ••charist. sacrific. cap. 11. ver• mactatur, ac immolatur.
For in his Apology of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proof of it, that he could, for the defence of Mass-priests, and the Mass-priests Nurseries,) che citeth not the scriptures, but the Fathers only. Which, unless he thought that the scriptures fail him, I see not why he should. Chiefly, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of Mass-priests, & the Mass he seeketh specially to win by his Apology, do give greater credit to five words of God then to ten thousand words of men.
For in his Apologie of the English Seminaries, (where he would of likelihood make the strongest proofe of it, that he could, for the defense of Masse-priests, and the Masse-priests Nourseries,) che citeth not the scriptures, but the Fathers onely. Which, vnlesse hée thought that the scriptures faile him, I sée not why hee should. Chiefly, sith he knoweth, that they, whose good liking of Masse-priests, & the Masse he séeketh specially to winne by his Apologie, doo giue greater credit to fiue words of God then to ten thousand words of men.
cThe Apology of the English Seminaries chapt. 6.The Apologie of the English Seminaries chapt. 6.
Hart. Nay, you are deceived much in D. Allen, if you think his judgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apology he citeth the Fathers only, not the scriptures, because you have colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were Mass-priests themselves, and said Mass.
Hart. Nay, you are deceued much in D. Allen, if you think his iudgement changed any whit from that it was in this point. But in his Apologie he citeth the Fathers onely, not the scriptures, because you haue colours of spiritual sacrifices to shift the scriptures off; but you cannot the Fathers so. For they all were Masse-priestes themselues, and said Masse.
Rainoldes. What one of them, M. Hart? If you speak indeed to the point of the Mass, and dally not, as D. Allen: who maketh Mass-priests of the Apostles, because they did consecrate the body and blood of Christ, and offer it. For if to consecrate ⟨p. 609⟩and offer, as dthey did, be to say Mass: then we say Mass in our Communion, and our Ministers are Mass-priests Which (I think) you mean not.
Rainoldes. What one of them, M. Hart? If you speake indeede to the point of the Masse, and daly not, as D. Allen: who maketh Masse-priestes of the Apostles, because they did consecrate the body and bloud of Christ, and offer it. For if to consecrate ⟨p. 609⟩and offer, as dthey did, be to say Masse: then wee say Masse in our Communion, and our Ministers are Masse-priests Which (I thinke) you meane not.
Hart. I mean that all the Fathers said Mass, as we do; and were, as we be, Mass-priests. Which he meaneth also, and proveth by the most of them. For so was S. Ambrose, etestifying of him self that he offered sacrifice, and said Mass, even in that plain term.
Hart. I meane that all the Fathers said Masse, as we doo; and were, as we be, Masse-priests. Which he meaneth also, and proueth by the most of them. For so was S. Ambrose, etestifying of him selfe that he offred sacrifice, and said Masse, euen in that plaine terme.
Rainoldes. That is not to say Mass, but to do mass, or rather to dismiss. *Missam fecit, in fSuetonius, would prove the Mass as well as that. Which I dare not say that perhaps him self espied since he wrote it, least again you tell me that I am much deceived in him. But in ghis Apology turned into Latin, S. Ambroses missam facere is changed into missam dixisse. And so the words are fitter to prove he said Mass.
Rainoldes. That is not to say Masse, but to doo masse, or rather to dimisse. *Missam fecit, in fSuetonius, would proue the Masse as wel as that. Which I dare not say that perhaps him selfe espied since he wrote it, least againe you tell me that I am much deceiued in him. But in ghis Apologie turned into Latin, S. Ambroses missam facere is changed into missam dixisse. And so the words are fitter to proue he said Masse.
*Paulinam coniunxit sibi brevique missam fecit.Paulinam coniunxit sibi breuique missam fecit.
fIn Caligula cap. 25.
gConcertat. eccles. Cathol. in Angl. aduer. Caluinop. & Purit.
Hart. Dixisse, or facere: the matter standeth not in that, but in the word missa. From which sith the name of Mass doth come in English: it followeth that S. Ambrose did celebrate Mass, that is, say Mass, as we term it.
Hart. Dixisse, or facere: the matter standeth not in that, but in the word missa. From which sith the name of Masse dooth come in English: it foloweth that S. Ambrose did celebrate Masse, that is, say Masse, as wée terme it.
Hart. That is a jest: you may not so put off my reason. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as hAristotle showeth. Wherefore sith the name of Mass is in S. Ambrose: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, that is, the Mass it self, as we do, whom you call Mass-priests?
Hart. That is a iest: you may not so put off my reason. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as hAristotle sheweth. Wherefore sith the name of Masse is in S. Ambrose: how can you deny but that hee did celebrate the thing, that is, the Masse it selfe, as we doo, whom you call Masse-priests?
Rainoldes. You: if your reason be of any value. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as Aristotle showeth. Wherefore sith the name of communion is in S. iPaul: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, even the communion it self, as we do, who are called Ministers?
Rainoldes. You: if your reason be of any value. For the name openeth the nature of the thing, as Aristotle sheweth. Wherfore sith the name of communion is in S. iPaul: how can you deny but that he did celebrate the thing, euen the communion it selfe, as we doo, who are called Ministers?
Hart. Yes. For though you keep the name with S. Paul: yet you keep not the thing. As ksorcerers are called magi, like lthe Sages of the East: yet is their wisdom wicked, not like that of the Sages.
Hart. Yes. For though you keepe the name with S. Paul: yet you keepe not the thing. As ksorcerers are called magi, like lthe Sages of the East: yet is their wisdome wicked, not like that of the Sages.
Rainoldes. That is false M. Hart, as you refer it to our Communion. For as we keep the name, so we keep the meaning of the name too: and therefore the thing it self with S. Paul. But turn it to your Mass: and it is very true. For in S. Ambroses time the Christian people, having public prayers in many Churches daily, mdid therewithal daily receive the holy sacrament of Christs body, and blood. Now, because sundry were at other parts of divine service, for whom it was not lawful to receive the sacrament, as 1novices in the faith who were not yet baptized, and 2such as Church discipline removed from the communion: therefore they were wont (after prayers made, and scriptures read, and taught,) nto dismiss the rest who might not communicate, the faithful only staying to receive together. And this dimission of them was noted by the word omissa, *used for missio, that is a sending away, or licensing to depart. Whence it came to pass that the very name of missa was given to that part of the service: and they were said missam facere, who celebrated the communion as S. Ambrose did. Wherefore though your sacrifice keepeth the name of Mass, that S. Ambrose used: yet doth it not keep the thing meant thereby. For nether send you them away, who receive not: and many a Mass is said that hath no communicants.
Rainoldes. That is false M. Hart, as you referre it to our Communion. For as we keepe the name, so we kéepe the meaning of the name too: and therefore the thing it selfe with S. Paul. But turne it to your Masse: and it is very true. For in S. Ambroses time the Christian people, hauing publike prayers in many Churches dayly, mdid therewithall dayly receiue the holy sacrament of Christes body, and bloud. Now, because sundry were at other partes of diuine seruice, for whom it was not lawful to receiue the sacrament, as 1nouices in the faith who were not yet baptized, and 2such as Church discipline remoued from the communion: therefore they were wont (after prayers made, and scriptures read, and taught,) nto dimisse the rest who might not communicate, the faithful onely staying to receue together. And this dimission of them was noted by the word omissa, *vsed for missio, that is a sending away, or licensing to depart. Whence it came to passe that the very name of missa was geuen to that part of the seruice: and they were said missam facere, who celebrated the communion as S. Ambrose did. Wherefore though your sacrifice keepeth the name of Masse, that S. Ambrose vsed: yet doth it not keepe the thing meant thereby. For nether send you them away, who receiue not: and many a Masse is said that hath no communicants.
mAmbr. de sacram l. 4. c. 6. & l. 5. c. 4. Hieron. ep•st. ad Lucin. & apolog. ad Pammach. pro libris contr. Jovinianum.Ambr. de sacram l. 4. c. 6. & l. 5. c. 4. Hieron. ep•st. ad Lucin. & apolog. ad Pammach. pro libris contr. Iouinianum.
1Ca•echumeni. In Liturg. Basil. & Chryso•t.Ca•echumeni. In Liturg. Ba•il. & Chryso•t.
2Abstenti. Cyprian. de Oration. Domin.
nConcil. Carthag. 4. c•n. 84. usque ad missam catechumenorum. August. serm. de temp. 237. Ecce post sermonem fit missa catechumenis▪ manebunt fideles.Concil. Carthag. 4. c•n. 84. vsque ad missam catechumenorum. August. serm. de temp. 237. Ecce post sermonem fit missa catechumenis▪ manebunt fideles.
oIsidor. orig. lib. 6. cap. 18.
*As the word, remissa, is used for remissio. Tertullian. contr. Marcion. lib. 4. Cyprian. de bono patient. Augustin. de baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 3. cap. 18.As the word, remissa, is vsed for remissio. Tertullian. contr. Marcion. lib. 4. Cyprian. de bono patient. Augustin. de baptism. contr. Donatist. lib. 3. cap. 18.
