The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. But you can not prove it by those words of Peter, which you would ground it on: although it were granted that he meant Rome by Babylon. For the most that might be proved so thereby, is, that he was at Rome. Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of Joppe. And thus you may see, what tragedies you make for how small trifles: when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that, which although we grant, we neither win, nor lose by it.
Rainoldes. But you can not proue it by those words of Peter, which you would ground it on: although it were graunted that he meant Rome by Babylon. For ye most that might be proued so therby, is, yt he was at Rome. Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of Ioppe. And thus you may sée, what tragedies you make for how small trifles: when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that, which although we graunt, we neyther winne, nor lose by it.
Rainoldes. I perceive the Pope must fetch his supremacy from earth and not from heaven. You are fallen again, from scripture, to Eusebius. Against whose authority I might take exception, because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome, preaching the gospel there, five and twenty years: which I have proved to be untrue. Though, (if I may speak mine own conjecture of it,) the difference of the Chronicle and history of Eusebius concerning that point, doth move me to think, that it was not written by Eusebius, but by Jerome. For
he could be content to advance the credit of his own See by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter. But whether Eusebius, or Jerome, or Damasus, or whosoever have said that Peter was a Bishop: either they used the name of [Bishop] generally, and so it proveth not your purpose; or if they meant it, as commonly we do, they missed the truth. For generally,
the Bishop of our souls. But, in our common use of speech it noteth him, to whom the oversight & charge of a particular Church is committed: such as were the Bishops of
the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world. Wherefore when the Fathers said, he was a Bishop: either they meant it in the former sense, or ought to have meant it. This is somewhat harder to be perceived by Jerome: but others open it more plainly. For
Rainoldes. I perceyue the Pope must fetch his supremacie from earth and not from heauen. You are fallen againe, from scripture, to Eusebius. Against whose autoritie I might take exception, because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome, preaching the gospel there, fiue and twentie yeares: which I haue proued to be vntrue. Though, (if I may speake mine owne coniecture of it,) the difference of the Chronicle and historie of Eusebius concerning that point, doth moue mee to thinke, that it was not writen by Eusebius, but by Ierom. For che, in translating the Chronicle of Eusebius, did enterlace some thinges which séemed to be omitted: *chiefely, in the Roman storie. Now Ierom might receiue it from dDamasus bishop of Rome: on whom ehe attended as a secretarie. And Damasus was not so voide of all affection, but fhe could be content to aduance the credit of his owne Sée by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter. But whether Eusebius, or Ierom, or Damasus, or whosoeuer haue saide that Peter was a Bishop: either they vsed the name of [Bishop] generally, and so it proueth not your purpose; or if they meant it, as commōly we do, they missed the truth. For generally, 1a Bishop, is an ouerseer. In which signification it reacheth to all, who are put in trust with ouersight & charge of any thing: as gEleazar is called Bishop of the tabernacle; & Christ, hthe Bishop of our soules. But, in our cōmon vse of spéech it noteth him, to whō ye ouersight & charge of a particular Church is committed: such as were the Bishops of iEphesus, of kPhilippi; and they whom Christ calleth lthe Angels of the Churches. Now Peter was not Bishop after this ⟨p. 268⟩later sort: for he was an Apostle, and 2the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world. Wherefore when the Fathers said, he was a Bishop: either they meant it in the former sense, or ought to haue meant it. This is somewhat harder to be perceiued by Ierom: but others open it more plainely. For mhe reckeneth Peter the first Bishop of Rome; Linus, the second; Cletus, the third; Clemens, the fourth, and so the rest successiuely: as likewise, nin Antioche, Ignatius, the third; whereby Euodius is the second; oand Peter, the first. But pEusebius nameth Euodius, the first Bishop of Antioche; Ignatius, the secōd: and qIrenaeus nameth Linus, the first Bishop of Rome; *Cletus the second; and so forth.
cHieron. praefat. in Eusebij Chron.
*In Romana maximé historia.
dIn pontificali.
eHieron. epist. 11. ad Ager. & l. 2. contra Rufinum.
fTheodoret. histor. ecclesiast. l. 5. c. 9. Sozom. l, 6. c. 23. Ammia•. Mar•ellin. l. 27.
1[Greek or Hebrew] whence the Latin (Episcopus) & our English word (Bishop) are derived.〈non-Latin alphabet〉 whence the Latin (Episcopus) & our English word (Bishop) are deriued.
gIn the Greek translation o• the Seventy interpreter•, Numb 4.16.In the Greek translation o• the Seuentie interpreter•, Numb 4.16.
2[Greek or Hebrew], so called, as chosen to be sent ••road to preach to e•ery creature. Mark. 3.14. & 16.15.〈non-Latin alphabet〉, so called, as chosen to be sent ••road to preach to e•ery creature. Mark. 3.14. & 16.15.
mHieronym. de scriptor. e• cle. verbo, Clemens.
nverbo, Ignatius.
overbo, Simon Pet.
pIn chronic. & histor. l. 3. c. 19
qAduers. haere. l. 3. cap. 3.
*Who is called Anacletus, by Irenaeus and Eusebius.
Whereby they declare, that (in their judgement) although Peter preached at Antioch and Rome both, yet he was neither Bishop of Antioch, nor Rome, as usually that name is taken. Yea they distinguish the Bishops, and the Apostles therein purposely. For rIrenaeus saith, that the two 1Apostles, namely Peter and Paul, when they had founded and taught the Roman Church, committed 2the Bishoply charge thereof to Linus. And he repeateth often in reckoning up the Bishops, (as doth sEusebius also) that they were such, and such, in order, and number, from the Apostles. And tRufinus writeth, that Linus and Cletus were Bishops while Peter lived: that they might have 1the care of the Bishoply charge, and he might do 2the duty of the Apostleship. Which is confirmed farther by uEpiphanius. Who, though he say that Peter and Paul were both Apostles & Bishops in Rome: yet he saith withal that there were other Bishops of Rome, while they lived; because that 1the Apostles, went often into other countries to preach Christ; & the city of Rome might not be without 2a Bishop. As if he should have said, that a Bishops duty doth bind him to attend the Church, whereof the holy Ghost hath made him overseer. Now, though the Apostles Peter and Paul did perform that duty to the Church of Rome, while they abode there: yet because it was the charge of their Apostleship to preach to others also, therefore they went thence to other coasts and nations, and left the Roman charge to the Bishop of Rome. And so you may learn by the Fathers them selves, that when they termed any Apostle a Bishop of this or that city, as namely, S. Peter of Antioch, or Rome: they meant it in ⟨p. 269⟩a general sort, and signification, because he did attend that Church for a time, and supplied that room in preaching of the Gospel, which Bishops did after. But as the name of [Bishop] is commonly taken for the overseer of a particular church, and pastor of a several flock: so Peter was not Bishop of any one city, and therefore not of Rome.
Whereby they declare, that (in their iudgement) although Peter preached at Antioche and Rome both, yet he was neither Bishop of Antioche, nor Rome, as vsually that name is taken. Yea they distinguish the Bishops, and the Apostles therein purposely. For rIrenaeus saith, that the two 1Apostles, namely Peter and Paule, when they had founded and taught the Romane Church, committed 2the Bishoply charge therof to Linus. And he repeateth often in reckening vp the Bishops, (as doth sEusebius also) that they were such, and such, in order, and number, from the Apostles. And tRufinus writeth, that Linus and Cletus were Bishops while Peter liued: that they might haue 1the care of the Bishoply charge, and hee might do 2the duetie of the Apostleship. Which is confirmed farther by uEpiphanius. Who, though hée say that Peter and Paule were both Apostles & Bishops in Rome: yet hee saith withall that there were other Bishops of Rome, while they liued; because that 1the Apostles, went often into other countryes to preach Christ; & the city of Rome might not be without 2a Bishop. As if he should haue said, that a Bishops duetie doth bind him to attend the Church, whereof the holy Ghost hath made him ouerseer. Now, though the Apostles Peter and Paule did performe that duetie to the Church of Rome, while they abode there: yet because it was the charge of their Apostleship to preach to others also, therefore they went thence to oth•r coastes and nations, and left the Romane charge to the Bishop of Rome. And so you may learne by the Fathers thē selues, that when they termed any Apostle a Bishop of this or that citie, as namely, S. Peter of Antioche, or Rome: they meant it in ⟨p. 269⟩
rAduers. h•r. lib. 3. cap. 3.
1Apostoli.
2Episcopatum.
sHistor. eccles, l. 3. c. 2. & 19. l. 4. c. 1. & 5. l. 5. c. 1. &c.
Hart. Yet the Bishops of Rome did succeed Peter: even by the testimony of the same authors namely of Irenaeus, Eusebius, 1and Epiphanius, in the places by you alleged.
Hart. Yet the Bishops of Rome did succéede Peter: euen by the testimonie of the same autors namely of Irenaeus, Eusebius, 1and Epiphanius, in the places by you alleaged.
Rainoldes. They did succeed Peter, as Bishops an Apostle: and they did succeed him in Rome, as other Bishops did in other cities. Wherefore if the Bishop of Rome by this succession have right to the supremacy: what hath the Bishop of Antioch? For he succeeded Peter too.
Rainoldes. They did succeede Peter, as Bishops an Apostle: and they did succéede him in Rome, as other Bishops did in other cities. Wherefore if the Bishop of Rome by this succession haue right to the supremacie: what hath the Bishop of Antioche? For he succeeded Peter too.
Hart. The Bishop of Antioch did succeed Peter, while Peter lived yet, and had not left his right. But the Bishop of Rome succeeded him, when he died: and thereby was advanced unto that supremacy, which Peter kept while he lived.
Hart. The Bishop of Antioche did succéede Peter, while Peter liued yet, and had not left his right. But the Bishop of Rome succéeded him, when he died: and thereby was aduanced vnto that supremacie, which Peter kept while hee liued.
Rainoldes. Your men were wont to answer, xthat Antioch had first right to the supremacy by the chair of Peter: but Peter did remove his chair thence to Rome. This was somewhat stale. Which your Father yRobert smelled belike, & so he thought it better to say that Peter kept his right, while he lived: but, when he died, the Bishop of Rome was his successor, and had it (as I trow) by legacy. A pretty shift if it would stand: but it lacketh life. For Linus Bishop of Rome, who succeeded Peter, succeeded Peter living: in the same manner as did the Bishop of Antioch.
Rainoldes. Your men were wont to answere, xthat Antioche had first right to the supremacie by the chaire of Peter: but Peter did remoue his chaire thence to Rome. This was somewhat stale. Which your Father yRobert smelled belike, & so he thought it better to say that Peter kept his right, while hee liued: but, when he died, the Bishop of Rome was his successour, and had it (as I trow) by legacie. A pretie shift if it woulde stand: but it lacketh life. For Linus Bishop of Rome, who succéeded Peter, succéeded Peter liuing: in the same maner as did the Bishop of Antioche.
xAs Pope Marcellus saith c. Rogamus. 24. q. 1. Turre oremata Summ. de eccles. l. 2. c. 36. Canus Locor. Theologi•or. l. 6. c. 8.
Hart. Not so. But Clemens rather did succeed Peter: and that, after his death. For, when he perceived his end to draw near, he took Clemens by the hand: and said, in the hearing of the whole Church, (which was then assembled,) Hearken unto me, my brethren and fellow-servants. Because (as my Lord & master Jesus Christ, who sent me, hath told me,) the day of my death approacheth: I ordain this Clemens to be your Bishop, unto whom alone I commit the chair of my preaching and doctrine; and I give to him that power of binding and loosing which Christ gave to me, that whatsoever he decreeth of any thing in earth, the same shall be decreed in ⟨p. 270⟩heaven.
Hart. Not so. But Clemens rather did succéede Peter: and that, after his death. For, when he perceiued his end to draw néere, he tooke Clemens by the hand: and said, in the hearing of the whole Church, (which was then assembled,) Hearken vnto me, my brethren and fellow-seruants. Because (as my Lord & maister Iesus Christ, who sent me, hath told me,) the day of my death approcheth: I ordeine this Clemens to bee your Bishop, vnto whom alone I commit the chaire of my preaching and doctrine; and I giue to him that power of binding and loosing which Christ gaue to me, that whatsoeuer he decreeth of any thing in earth, the same shall bee decreed in ⟨p. 270⟩heauen.
Rainoldes. In deed an old monument. It is so old, that it is rotten. A very drunken forgery: wherein it is said, that Peter prayed Clemens to write (after his death) this epistle to James the brother of the Lord, to comfort him: and Clemens did so. Whereas aJames was dead long before Peter, about an eight years at least.
Rainoldes. In déede an olde monument. It is so olde, that it is rotten. A very drunken forgerie: wherein it is said, that Peter praied Clemens to write (after his death) this epistle to Iames the brother of the Lord, to comfort him: and Clemens did so. Whereas aIames was dead long before Peter, about an eight yeares at least.
aJoseph. antiquit. Judaicar. l. 20. c. 16. Euseb. histor. eccles. l. 2. c. 23.Ioseph. antiquit. Iudaicar. l. 20. c. 16. Euseb. histor. eccles. l. 2. c. 23.
a generall sort, and signification, because he did attend that Church for a time, and supplyed that roome in preaching of the Gospel, which Bishops did after. But as the name of [Bishop] is commonly taken for the ouerseer of a particular church, and pastor of a seuerall flocke: so Peter was not Bishop of any one citie, and therefore not of Rome.
