An answer to a challenge madeAn ansvver to a challenge made
An answer to a challenge made by a Jesuit in Ireland Wherein the judgement of antiquity in the points questioned is truly delivered, and the novelty of the now romish doctrine plainly discovered. By James Usher Bishop of Meath.An ansvver to a challenge made by a Iesuite in Ireland Wherein the iudgement of antiquity in the points questioned is truely delivered, and the noveltie of the now romish doctrine plainly discovered. By Iames Vssher Bishop of Meath.
James Ussher 1581–1656Dublin: printed by the Society of Stationers and Eliot's Court Press, 1624Dublin: printed by the Societie of Stationers and Eliot's Court Press, 1624
[24], 527, [9] p. · 153k words · STC 24542 · ESTC S118933
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Now, that diverse of the chief Doctors of the Church were of opinion, that the Saints in the New Testament are in the same place & state that the Saints of the Old Testament were in, and that before the day of the last judgement they are not admitted into Heaven and the clear s•ght of God (wherein this metaphysical speculation of the Saints seeing of our prayers is founded:) hath been nbefore declared out of their own writings. where that speech of S. Augustin; oNondum ibi eris: quis nescit? (Thou shalt not as yet be there: who knoweth it not?) showeth that the opinion was somewhat general, and apprehended generally too as more then an opinion. By the Romanists own grounds then, the more generally this point was held by the ancient Fathers, and the more resolvedly: the ⟨p. 389⟩less generally of force, and the more doubtfully must the Popish doctrine of praying to Saints have been entertained by them. And if our Challenger desire to be informed of this doubt that was among the ancient Divines (touching the estate of the Saints now in the time of the New Testament) by the report of the Doctors of his own religion, rather than by our allegations: let him hear from Franciscus Pegna, what they have found herein. pIt was a matter in controversy (saith he) of old, whether the souls of the Saints before the day of judgement did see God, and enjoy the divine vision: seeing many worthy men and famous both for lea• ning and holiness did seem to hold, that they do not see nor enjoy it before the day of judgement, until receiving their bodies together with them they should enjoy divine blessedness. For Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clemens Romanus, Origen, Ambrose, Chrysostom, Augustin, Lactantius, Victorinus, Prudentius, Theodoret, Aretas, Oecumenius, Theophylact, and Euthymius are said to have been of this opinion: as Castrus and Medina and Sotus do relate. To whom we may adjoin one more of no less credit among our Romanists then any of the others:
Now, that diverse of the chiefe Doctors of the Church were of opinion, that the Saints in the New Testament are in the same place & state that the Saints of the Old Testament were in, and that before the day of the last judgement they are not admitted into Heaven and the cleare sght of God (wherein this metaphysicall speculation of the Saints seeing of our praiers is founded:) hath beene
Nondum ibi eris: quis nescit? (Thou shalt not as yet be there: who knoweth it not?) sheweth that the opinion was somewhat generall, and apprehended generally too as more then an opinion. By the Romanists own grounds then, the more generally this point was held by the ancient Fathers, and the more resolvedly: the
⟨p. 389⟩
lesse generally of force, and the more doubtfully must the Popish doctrine of praying to Saints have beene intertayned by them. And if our Challenger desire to be informed of this doubt that was among the ancient Divines (touching the estate of the Saints now in the time of the New Testament) by the report of the Doctors of his owne religion, rather than by our allegations: let him heare from Franciscus Pegna, what they have found herein.
It was a matter in controversie (saith he) of old, whether the soules of the Saints before the day of judgement did see God, and enjoy the divine vision: seeing many worthy men and famous both for lea• ning and holinesse did seeme to hold, that they doe not see nor enjoy it before the day of judgement, untill receiving their bodies together with them they should enjoy divine blessednesse. For Irenaeus, Iustin Martyr, Tertullian, Clemens Romanus, Origen, Ambrose, Chrysostom, Augustin, Lactantius, Victorinus, Prudentius, Theodoret, Aretas, Oecumenius, Theophylact, and Euthymius are said to have beene of this opinion: as Castrus and Medina and Sotus dorelate. To whom we may adjoyne one more of no lesse credit among our Romanists then any of the others:
nSee above, from pag. 215. to 225. item pag. 259.260.265.266.270.343.344. &c.
pOlim controversum fuit, num animae S•nctoru• usque ad diem judicij Deem viderent, & divinâ vision frueren•ur: cùm multi insignes viri & doctrinâ & sanctitate clari tenere viderentur, eas nec videre nec frui usque ad diem judicij, donec receptis corporibus unâ cum illis divinâ beatitudine perfruantur. nam Irenaeus, Justinus martyr, Tertullianus, Clemens Romanus, Origenes, Ambrosius, Chrysostomus, Augustinus, Lactantius, Victorinus, Prud•ntius, Theodoretus, Aretas, Oecumenius, Theophylactus, & Euthymius hujus referuntur fuisse sententiae: ut commemorant, Castrus, & Medina, & Sotus. •r. Pegna, in •art. 2 D•re•io• Inquisitor comment 21.Olim controversum fuit, num animae S•nctoru• usque ad diem judicij De•m viderent, & divinâ visione frueren•ur: cùm multi insignes viri & doctrinâ & sanctitate clari tenere viderentur, eas nec videre nec frui usque ad diem judicij, donec receptis corporibus unâ cum illis divinâ beatitudine perfruantur. nam Irenaeus, Iustinus martyr, Tertullianus, Clemens Romanus, Origenes, Ambrosius, Chrysostomus, Augustinus, Lactantius, Victorinus, Prud•ntius, Theodoretus, Aretas, Oecumenius, Theophylactus, & Euthymius hujus referuntur fuisse sententiae: ut commemorant, Castrus, & Medina, & Sotus. •r. Pegna, in •art. 2 D•re•io• Inquisitor comment 21.
even Thomas Stapleton himself, who taketh it for granted, that qthese so many famous ancient Fathers, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Origen, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Oecumenius, Theophylact, Ambrose, Clemens Romanus, sss⟨p. 390⟩ and Bernard, did not assent unto this sentence (which now, saith he, in the Council of Florence was at length after much disputing defined as a doctrine of faith) that the souls of the righteous enjoy the sight of God before the day of judgement; but did deliver the contrary sentence thereunto.
even Thomas Stapleton himselfe, who taketh it for granted, that qthese so many famous ancient Fathers, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Origen, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Oecumenius, Theophylact, Ambrose, Cl•mens Romanus, sss⟨p. 390⟩ and Bernard, did not assent unto this sentence (which now, saith he, in the Councell of Florence was at length after much disputing defined as a doctrine of faith) that the soules of the righteous enjoy the sight of God before the day of judgement; but did deliver the contrary sentence thereunto.
qTot illi & tam celebres antiqui patres, Tertu•lianus, Irenaeus, Origenes, Chrysostomus, Theodoretus, Oecumenius, Theophylactus, Ambrosius, Clemens Romanus, D Bernardus, huic sententiae (quae nunc in Concilio Florentino magnâ demùm conquisitione factâ ut dogma fidei definita est) quòd justorum animae ante diem judicij Dei visione fruuntur, non sunt assensi; sed sententiam contrariam tradiderunt. S•ap•eton. Desens. Ecclesiastic. authorit. cont•a Whitaker. lib. 1. cap. 2.Tot illi & tam celebres antiqui patres, Tertu•lianus, Irenaeus, Origenes, Chrysostomus, Theodoretus, Oecumenius, Theophylactus, Ambrosius, Clemens Romanus, D Bernardus, huic sententiae (quae nunc in Concilio Florentino magnâ demùm conquisitione factâ ut dogma fidei definita est) quòd justorum animae ante diem judicij Dei visione fruuntur, non sunt assensi; sed sententiam contrariam tradiderunt. S•ap•eton. Desens. Ecclesiastic. authorit. cont•a Whitake•. lib. 1. cap. 2.
We would entreat our Challenger then, to spell these things and put them together: and afterward to tell us, whether such a conclusion as this may not be deduced from thence.
Such as held that the Saints were not yet admitted to the sight of God; could not well hold that men should pray unto them, in such manner as the Romanists use now to do. because the Saints not enjoying the sight of God, are not able ordinarily to take notice of the prayers that are put up unto them.
But many and very famous Doctors too among the ancient, did hold, that the Saints are not yet admitted to the sight of God.
Therefore many and very famous Doctors among the ancient, could not well hold, that men should pray unto the Saints in such manner as the Romanists use now to do.
The first proposition is given unto us by Bellarmine and his fellow Jesuits; the second by Stapleton and other Doctors of the Romish Church: yet all of them with equal boldness agree in denying the Conclusion. rIt is the certain and manifest definition of the Councils (saith a Jesuit) confirmed by perpetual use from the times of the Apostles, and by the authority of ALL the Greek and Latin Fathers; that Saints are to be prayed unto and invocated. sALL the Fathers Greek and Latin teach ⟨p. 391⟩this: saith Bellarmine. tALL the Fathers, aswell Greek as Latin, perpetually have called upon the Saints: saith Salmeron. and uthis is clear by ALL the writers of the first six hundred years: quoth Stapleton. for these kind of men have so inured their tongues to talk of all fathers and all writers; that they can hardly use any other form of speech: having told such tales as these so often over, that at last they persuade themselves that they be very true indeed.
We would intreat our Challenger then, to spell these things and put them together: and afterward to tell us, whether such a conclusion as this may not be deduced from thence.
Such as held that the Saints were not yet admitmitted to the sight of God; could not well hold that men should pray unto them, in such maner as the Romanists use now to do. because the Saints not enjoying the sight of God, are not able ordinarily to take notice of the prayers that are put up unto them.
But manie and verie famous Doctors too among the ancient, did hold, that the Saints are not yet admitted to the sight of God.
Therefore manie and verie famous Doctors among the ancient, could not well hold, that men should pray unto the Saints in such maner as the Romanists use now to doe.
The first proposition is given unto us by Bellarmine and his fellow Iesuites; the second by Stapleton and other Doctors of the Romish Church: yet all of them with equall boldnesse agree in denying the Conclusion. rIt is the certaine and manifest definition of the Councells (saith a Iesuite) confirmed by perpetuall use from the times of the Apostles, and by the authoritie of ALL the Greeke and Latin Fathers; that Saints are to be prayed unto and invocated. sALL the Fathers Greek and Latin teach ⟨p. 391⟩this: saith Bellarmine. tALL the Fathers, aswell Greeke as Latin, perpetually have called upon the Saints: saith Salmeron. and uthis is cleere by ALL the writers of the first sixe hundred yeares: quoth Stapleton. for these kinde of men have so enured their tongues to talke of all fathers and all writers; that they can hardly use any other forme of speech: having told such tales as these so often over, that at last they perswade themselves that they be very true indeed.
rCerta est & manifesta Conciliorum definitio, perpetuo ab Apostolorum temporibus usu, & omnium Graecorum & Latinorum patrū authoritate firmata; Sanctos esse orandos et invocandos. Jo. Azor. Insti•ut. Moral. tom. 1. lib. 9. cap. 10.Certa est & manifesta Conciliorum definitio, perpetuo ab Apostolorum temporibus usu, & omnium Graecorum & Latinorum patrū authoritate firmata; Sanctos esse orandos et invocandos. Jo. Azor. Insti•ut. Moral. tom. 1. lib. 9. cap. 10.
sOmnes Patres Graeci & Latini docent, Sanctos esse invocandos. Bellarmin. de Eccles. triumph. lib. 1. cap. 6.
tPatres universi, tam Graeci quàm Latini, perpetuò Sanctos interpellârunt Alphons Salmer. tit 1. Timoth. 2. d•sput. 7.
The memory of the Martyrs indeed was from the very beginning had in great reverence: and at their Memorials and Martyria, that is to say, at the places wherein their bodies were laid (which were the Churches whereunto the Christians did in those times usually resort) prayers were ordinarily offered up unto that God for whose cause they laid down their lives. Where, the Lord being pleased to give a gracious answer to such prayers, and to do many wonderful things for the honouring of that Christian profession which those worthy champions maintained unto the death men began afterwards to conceive, that it was at their suite and mediation that these things were granted and effected. Which was the rather believed, by reason that the Martyrs themselves were thought to have appeared unto diverse that were thus relieved, both at the places of their memorials and other where. Notwithstanding, in what sort these things were brought about, S. Augustin professeth that it did pass the strength of his understanding to define. xwhether the Martyrs themselves were in their own persons present at one time in such diverse places, so far distant one from another: or whether they remaining in a certain place removed from all commerce with the affairs of men ⟨p. 392⟩here, ybut praying in general for the necessities of suppliants; God by the ministry of Angels did effect these things when, where, & in what manner he pleased, but zespecially at the Memorials of the martyrs, because he knew that to be expedient to us for the building of the faith of Christ, for whose confession they did suffer. aThis matter is higher (faith he) than that it may be touched by me, and more abstruse than that it can be searched into by me: and therefore whether of these two it be, or whether peradventure both of them be; that these things may sometimes be done by the very presence of the Martyrs, sometimes by Angels taking upon them the person of the Martyrs, I dare not define.
The memorie of the Martyrs indeed was from the very beginning had in great reverence: and at their Memorialls and Martyria, that is to say, at the places wherein their bodies were layd (which were the Churches whereunto the Christians did in those times usually resort) prayers were ordinarily offered up unto that God for whose cause they layd down their lives. Where, the Lord being pleased to give a gracious answere to such prayers, and to doe many wonderfull things for the honouring of that Christian profession which those worthy champions maintayned unto the death men began afterwards to conceive, that it was at their suite and mediation that these things were granted and effected. Which was the rather beleeved, by reason that the Martyrs themselves were thought to have appeared unto diverse that were thus releeved, both at the places of their memorialls and other where. Notwithstanding, in what sort these things were brought about, S. Augustin professeth that it did passe the strength of his understanding to define. xwhether the Martyrs themselves were in their owne persons present at one time in such diverse places, so farre distant one from another: or whether they remaining in a certaine place removed from all commerce with the affayres of men ⟨p. 392⟩here, ybut praying in generall for the necessities of suppliants; God by the ministery of Angels did effect these things when, where, & in what maner he pleased, but zespecially at the Memorialls of the martyrs, because he knew that to be expedient to us for the building of the faith of Christ, for vvhose confession they did suffer. aThis matter is higher (faith he) than that it may be touched by me, and more abstruse than that it can be searched into by me: and therefore whether of these two it be, or whether peradventure both of them be; that these things may sometimes be done by the very presence of the Martyrs, sometimes by Angels taking upon them the person of the Martyrs, I dare not define.
xUtrùm ipsi per seipsos assint uno tempore tam diversis locis, & tantâ inter se longinquitate discretis, etc. Augustin. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16.Vtrùm ipsi per seipsos assint uno tempore tam diversis locis, & tantâ inter se longinquitate discretis, etc. Augustin. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16.
yEt tamen generaliter orantibus pro indigentiâ supplicantium. ibid.
zmaximeque per eorum memorias; quoniam hoc novit expedire nobis ad aedificandam f•dem Christi, pro cujus illi confessione sunt passi. I•si•.
aRes haec altior est, quàm ut á me possit a•ting•, & abstrusior quàm ut á me valeat perscrutari: & ideò quid ho•ū duoru• sit, an veró fortassis utrumque sit, ut aliquando ista fiant per ipsam praesentiā martyrum, aliquando per Angelos suscipientes personam martyrū, definere non audeo. Ibid.Res haec altior est, quàm ut á me possit a•ting•, & abstrusior quàm ut á me valeat perscrutari: & ideò quid ho•ū duoru• sit, an veró fortassis utrumque sit, ut aliquando ista fiant per ipsam praesentiā martyrum, aliquando per Angelos suscipientes personam martyrū, definere non audeo. Ibid.
The first of these opinions pleaseth S. Hierome best: who allegeth for proof thereof that place in the Revelation; bThese follow the Lamb, whithersoever he goeth. whereupon he inferreth a conclusion, which hath need of a very favourable interpretation. cIf the Lamb be every where: therefore they also that are with the Lamb, must be believed to be every where. From whom Maximus Taurinensis seemeth not much to differ, where he saith: dAlthough all the Saints be every where, and profit all men: yet they specially do labour for us, who have also suffered punishments for us. So one Eustratius a priest of Constantinople made a collection of divers testimonies both out of the Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers; to prove, ethat the souls which oftentimes and in different manners appear ⟨p. 393⟩unto many, do themselves appear according to their proper existence; and it is not the divine power, assuming the shape of the holy souls, that showeth forth these operations. And so strongly did this opinion prevail, when superstition had once gotten head; that at length this Canon was discharged against those that should hold otherwise. fIf any man say, that the Saints themselves do not appear, but their Angels only; let him be anathema. The author of the Questions to Antiochus, commonly attributed unto Athanasius, thus determineth the matter on the contrary side. gThose adumbrations and visions which appear at the chapels and tombs of the Saints, are not made by the souls of the Saints; but by holy Angels transformed into the shape of the Saints. For how otherwise (tell me) can the soul of S. Peter or S. Paul, being but one, appear at the same instant being commemorated in a thousand Churches of his throughout the whole world? For this can neither one Angel do at any time: it being proper unto God alone, to be found at the same instant in two places and in the whole world. And Anastasius Sinaita or Nicanus, in the self same manner. hIt is fit we should know, that all the visions which appear at the chapels or tombs of the Saints, are performed by holy Angels, by the permission of God. For how else should it be possible, that the resurrection of the bodies being not yet made, but the bodies and the flesh of the Saints being as yet dispersed; that these should be seen ⟨p. 394⟩in shape complete men, and oftentimes appear upon horses armed?
The first of these opinions pleaseth S. Hierome best: who alledgeth for proofe thereof that place in the Revelation; bThese follow the Lambe, whethersoever he goeth. whereupon he inferreth a conclusion, which hath neede of a very favourable interpretation. cIf the Lambe be every where: therefore they also that are with the Lambe, must be beleeved to be every where. From whom Maximus Taurinensis seemeth not much to differ, where he sayth: dAlthough all the Saints be every where, and profit all men: yet they specially doe labour for us, who have also suffered punishments for us. So one Eustratius a priest of Constantinople made a collection of divers testimonies both out of the Scriptures and the writings of the Fathers; to prove, ethat the soules which oftentimes and in different maners appeare ⟨p. 393⟩unto many, doe themselves appeare according to their proper existence; and it is not the divine power, assuming the shape of the holy soules, that sheweth forth these operations. And so strongly did this opinion prevayle, when superstition had once gotten head; that at length this Canon was discharged against those that should hold otherwise. fIf any man say, that the Saints themselves doe not appeare, but their Angels onely; let him be anathema. The author of the Questions to Antiochus, commonly attributed unto Athanasius, thus determineth the matter on the contrary side. gThose adumbrations and visions which appeare at the chappels and tombes of the Saints, are not made by the soules of the Saints; but by holy Angels transformed into the shape of the Saints. For how otherwise (tell me) can the soule of S. Peter or S. Paul, being but one, appeare at the same instant being commemorated in a thousand Churches of his throughout the whole world? For this can neyther one Angell doe at any time: it being proper unto God alone, to be found at the same instant in two places and in the whole vvorld. And Anastasius Sinaita or Nicanus, in the selfe same maner. hIt is fit we should know, that all the visions which appeare at the chappels or tombes of the Saints, are performed by holy Angels, by the permission of God. For how else should it be possible, that the resurrection of the bodies being not yet made, but the bodies and the flesh of the Saints being as yet dispersed; that these should be seene
cSi agnus ubique: ergo & hi, qui cum agno sunt, ubique esse credendi sunt. Hieronym. advers. Vigilant.
dLicèt universi Sancti ubique sint, & omnibus prosi•t: specialiter illi tamen pro nobis interveniunt, qui & supplicia pertulêre pro nobis. Maxim. homil. in Natali Taurinorum martyrum.
e[Greek or Hebrew]. Eustrat. in Photij Bibliothecâ, cod. 171.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Eustrat. in Photij Bibliothecâ, cod. 171.
f[Greek or Hebrew]. Canon. Synodi á Michaële Syncello citat. in Ignatij Patriarch. C.P. Encomio.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Canon. Synodi á Michaële Syncello citat. in Ignatij Patriarch. C.P. Encomio.
g[Greek or Hebrew]. Athanas. quaest 26. ad Antioch.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Athanas. quaest 26. ad Antioch.
And if thou thinkest that thou mayest contradict these things: tell me, how can Paul or Peter, or any other Apostle or Martyr, being but one, appear oftentimes at the same hour in many places? For neither is an Angel able to be at the same instant in diverse places; but God only who is uncircumscriptible. Whereunto we may further add those judicious observations of S. Augustine touching this matter.
And if thou thinkest that thou mayest contradict these things: tell me, how can Paul or Peter, or any other Apostle or Martyr, being but one, appeare oftentimes at the same houre in many places? For neyther is an Angel able to be at the same instant in diverse places; but God onely who is uncircumscriptible. Whereunto we may further adde those judicious observations of S. Augustine touching this matter.
iIf one in his sleep may see me, telling unto him something that is done, or foretelling also something that is to come; when I am altogether ignorant thereof, and have no care at all, not only of what he dreameth, but whether he awaketh I being a sleep, or he sleepeth I being awake, or whether both of us at one and the some time do either wake or sleep, when he seeth the dream in which he seeth me: what marvel is it if the dead, not knowing nor perceiving these things, are yet seen in dreams by the living, and say somewhat which they being awake may know to be true? kBut such is mans weakness, that when any one seeth a dead man in his sleep, he thinketh that he doth see his soul; but when he dreameth in like manner of one that is alive, he maketh no doubt, that it is neither his soul nor his body, but a similitude of the man that did appear unto him: as if not the soul•s but the similitudes of dead men, not knowing it, might not also after the same sort appear. So he telleth of one Eulogius a rhetorician ⟨p. 395⟩in Carthage, who lighting upon a certain obscure place in Ciceroes Rhetorics which he was the next day to read unto his scholars, was so troubled therewith that at night he could scarce sleep. lIn which night (saith S. Augustin) I expounded unto him while he was in a dream, that which he did not understand: nay not I, but my image, I not knowing, and so far beyond the sea either doing or dreaming some other thing, and nothing at all caring for his cares. The like he doth also note to happen unto those that are in raptures and ecstasies. mFor unto these also do appear images as well of the living as of the dead: but after they have been restored unto their senses, as many of the dead as they say that they have seen, with them they are truly believed to have been: neither do they mark who hear these things, that the images of some living men, that were absent and ignorant of these things, were in like manner seen by them. And for the confession of the Devils in parties possessed, he bringeth in a memorable instance, of that which fell out in nMilan, at the place of the memorial of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius. where the Devils did not only make mention of the Martyrs that were dead, but also of Ambrose the Bishop then living; and besought him that he would spare them:
iIf one in his sleepe may see me, telling unto him something that is done, or foretelling also something that is to come; when I am altogether ignorant thereof, and have no care at all, not onely of what he dreameth, but whether he awaketh I being a sleepe, or he sleepeth I being awake, or whether both of us at one and the some time doe eyther wake or sleepe, when he seeth the dreame in which he seeth me: what marvell is it if the dead, not knowing nor perceiving these things, are yet seene in dreames by the living, and say somewhat which they being awake may know to be true? kBut such is mans weak•esse, that when any one seeth a dead man in his sleepe, he thinketh that he doth see his soule; but when he dreameth in like maner of one that is alive, he maketh no doubt, that it is neyther his soule nor his body, but a similitude of the man that did appeare unto him: as if not the soul•s but the similitudes of dead men, not knowing it, might not also after the same sort appeare. So he telleth of one Eulogius a rhetorician ⟨p. 395⟩in Carthage, who lighting upon a certaine obscure place in Ciceroes Rhetorickes which he was the next day to reade unto his schollers, was so troubled therwith that at night he could scarce sleepe. lIn which night (saith S. Augustin) I expounded unto him while he was in a dreame, that which he did not understand: nay not I, but my image, I not knowing, and so farre beyond the sea eyther doing or dreaming some other thing, and nothing at all caring for his cares. The like he doth also note to happen unto those that are in raptures and extasies. mFor unto these also doe appeare images as well of the living as of the dead: but after they have been restored unto their senses, as many of the dead as they say that they have seen, with them they are truely beleeved to have beene: neyther doe they marke who heare these things, that the images of some living men, that were absent and ignorant of these things, were in like maner seene by them. And for the confession of the Divels in parties possessed, he bringeth in a memorable instance, of that which fell out in nMillaine, at the place of the memoriall of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius. where the Divels did not only make mention of the Martyrs that were dead, but also of Ambrose the Bishop then living; and besought him that he would spare them:
iSi ergo me potest aliquis in somnis videre, sibi aliquid quod factum est indica•tem, vel etiam quod futurum est praenu•ciantem; cùm id ego prorsus ignorē, & omninò non curem, non solùm quid ille somniet, sed utrùm dormiente me vigilet, an vigilante me dormiat, an uno eodemque tempore vigilemus ambo sive dormiamus, quando ille som•ium videt & in quo me videt: quid mirum si nescientes mortui, nec ista sentientes, tamen á viventibus videntur in somnijs, & aliquid dicunt, quod evigilantes verum esse cognoscant? August de curâ pro mortuis, cap. 10.Si ergo me potest aliquis in somnis videre, sibi aliquid quod factum est indica•tem, vel etiam quod futurum est praenu•ciantem; cùm id ego prorsus ignorē, & omninò non curem, non solùm quid ille somniet, sed utrùm dormiēte me vigilet, an vigilante me dormiat, an uno eodemque tempore vigilemus ambo sive dormiamus, quando ille som•ium videt & in quo me videt: quid mirum si nescientes mortui, nec ista sentientes, tamen á viventibus videntur in somnijs, & aliquid dicunt, quod evigilantes verum esse cognoscant? August de curâ pro mortuis, cap. 10.
kSic autem infirmitas humana sese habet, ut cùm mortuum in somnis quisque viderit, ipsius animam see videre arbitretur; cùm autē vivum similiter somnia verit, non ejus animam, neque corpus, sed hominis similitudinem sibi apparuisse non dubitet: quasi non possint & mortuorum hominum, eodem modo nescientium, non animae sed similitudines apparere dormientibus. Ibid. cap. 11.Sic autem infirmitas humana sese habet, ut cùm mortuum in somnis quisque viderit, ipsius animam se videre arbitretur; cùm autē vivum similiter somnia verit, non ejus animam, neque corpus, sed hominis similitudinem sibi apparuisse non dubitet: quasi non possint & mortuorum hominum, eodem modo nescientium, non animae sed similitudines apparere dormientibus. Ibid. cap. 11.
lQuâ nocte somnianti, ego illi quod non intelligebat exposui: immò non ego, sed imago mea nesciente me, & tam longé trans mare aliquid aliud, sive agente, sive somniante, & nihil de illius curis omnino currant. Ibid.Quâ nocte somnianti, ego illi quod non intelligebat exposui: immò non ego, sed imago mea nesciente me, & tam longé trans mare aliquid aliud, sive agente, sive somniante, & nihil de illius curis omnino curante. Ibid.
But as S. Augustin doth put us in mind in that discourse, that omen are sometimes led into great errors ⟨p. 396⟩by deceitful dreams or visions; and that it is just, that they should suffer such things. so S. Chrysostom giveth a good admonition, that little heed should be taken of the Devils sayings. pWhat is it then (saith he) that the Devils do say; I am the soul of such a Monk? Surely for this I believe it not, because the Devils say it: for they deceive their hearers. And therefore Paul (Act. 16.18.) silenced them, although they spake truth; least taking occasion from thence, they might mingle false things again with those truths, and get credit to themselves. and touching dreams and apparitions of the dead, he addeth further. qIf at this time, the dreams that appear oftentimes in the shapes of them that have departed this life, have deceived and corrupted many: much more if this were once settled in mens minds, that many of those that are departed did return again unto us; that wicked Devil would plot a thousand guiles, and bring in much deceit into our life. And for this cause God hath shut up the doors, and doth not suffer any of the deceased to return back and tell the things that are there: least he, taking occasion from thence, should bring in all his own devices. It was the complaint of Synesius in his time, that there were rmany both private men and Priests too, who feigned certain dreams, which they called Revelations· and in ancient writings we meet with sundry visions, which if they be truly related, may more justly be suspected to have been illusions of deceitful spirits, than true apparitions of blessed either Souls or Angels.
But as S. Augustin doth put us in minde in that discourse, that omen are sometimes ledd into great errors ⟨p. 396⟩by deceitfull dreames or visions; and that it is just, that they should suffer such things. so S. Chrysostom giveth a good admonition, that little heed should be taken of the Divels sayings. pWhat is it then (saith he) that the Divels doe say; I am the soule of such a Monke? Surely for this I beleeve it not, because the Divels say it: for they deceive their hearers. And therefore Paul (Act. 16.18.) silenced them, although they spake truth; least taking occasion from thence, they might mingle false things againe with those truthes, and get credi• to themselves. and touching dreames and apparitions of the dead, he addeth further. qIf at this time, the dreames that appeare oftentimes in the shapes of them that have departed this life, have deceived and corrupted many: much more if this were once setled in mens mindes, that many of those that are departed did returne againe unto us; that wicked Divel would plot a thousand guiles, and bring in much deceit into our life. And for this cause God hath shut up the doores, and doth not suffer any of the deceased to returne back and tell the things that are there: least he, taking occasion from thence, should bring in all his own devices. It was the complaint of Synesius in his time, that there were rmany both private men and Priests too, who fayned certaine dreames, which they called Revelations· and in ancient writings we meet with sundry visions, which if they be truely related, may more justly be suspected to have been illusions of deceitfull spirits, than true apparitions of blessed eyther Soules or Angels.
oAliquando autem fallacibus som•ijs (all. visis) hi homines in magnos mittuntur errors: quos talia perpeti justum est. Ibid. cap. 10.Aliquando autem fallacibus som•ijs (al. visis) hi homines in magnos mittuntur errores: quos talia perpeti justum est. Ibid. cap. 10.
p[Greek or Hebrew]. •hrysost. de Lazaro, conc. 2. tom. 5. edit. Savil. pag. 235.236.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. •hrysost. de Lazaro, conc. 2. tom. 5. edit. Savil. pag. 235.236.
q[Greek or Hebrew]. Id. de Lazar. conc. 4. ibid pag 256.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Id. de Lazar. conc. 4. ibid pag 256.
r[Greek or Hebrew]. Sins. epist. 54.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Synes. epist. 54.
He that will advisedly read over Basilius Seleuciensis ⟨p. 397⟩his narration of the miracles of S. Thecla (for example) must either reject the work as strangely corrupted, or easily be drawn to yield unto that which I have said. For who can digest such relations and observations as these? that sthey who watch the night that goeth before her festivity, do at that time yearly see her driving a fiery chariot in the air, and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus, as a place which she did principally affect, in regard of the commodity and pleasantness of the situation. that both she and other of the Saints deceased do trejoice much in solitary places, and do ordinarily dwell in them. that after her death she should uaffect Oratory and P•ëtry, and be continually delighted with such as did more accurately set forth her praises: (even as Homer bringeth in Apollo, xtickled at the heart with hearing the songs that were made unto him in the camp of the Grecians:) of which he produceth two special instances: the one of Alypius the Grammarian, unto whom being forsaken of the physicians Thecla (he saith) did appear in the night, and demanded of him, what he ailed, and what he would. He, to show his art, and to win the Virgins favour with the aptness of the verse; returneth for an answer unto her that verse, wherewith Homer maketh Achilles to answer his mother Thetis, in the first of the Iliads:
[Greek or Hebrew];
Thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all?
Whereat ythe Martyr smiling, and being delighted partly with the man partly with the verse, and wondering that he had answered so aptly; conveyed a certain round stone unto him, with the touch whereof he was presently ⟨p. 398⟩set on foot from his long and perilous sickness. For •he other instance the writer reporteth that which happened unto himself. For zthe Marty• (saith he) is such a lover of learning, and taketh such a delight in these oratorious praises; that I will tell somewhat of those things that were done to my self and for my self: which the Martyr, who did it, doth know to have been done, and that I lye not. Then he telleth, how having prepared an oration for her anniversary festivity, the day before it should be pronounced, he was taken with such an extreme pain in his ear, that the auditory was like to be quite disappointed:
He that will advisedly reade over Basilius Seleuciensis ⟨p. 397⟩his narration of the miracles of S. Thecla (for example) must eyther reject the worke as strangely corrupted, or easily be drawne to yeeld unto that which I have said. For who can digest such relations and observations as these? that sthey who watch the night that goeth before her festivitie, doe at that time yearely see her driving a fiery chariot in the ayre, and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus, as a place which she did principally affect, in regard of the commoditie and pleasantnesse of the situation. that both shee and other of the Saints deceased do trejoyce much in solitary places, and doe ordinarily dwell in them. that after her death she should uaffect Oratory and P•ëtry, and be continually delighted with such as did more accurately set forth her prayses: (even as Homer bringeth in Apollo, xtickled at the heart with hearing the songs that were made unto him in the campe of the Grecia•s:) of which he produceth two speciall instances: the one of Alypius the Grammarian, unto whom being forsaken of the physicians Thecla (he saith) did appeare in the night, and demanded of him, what he ayled, and what he would. He, to shew his art, and to win the Virgins favour with the aptnesse of the verse; returneth for an answer unto her that verse, wherewith Homer maketh Achilles to answer his mother Thetis, in the first of the Iliads:
〈non-Latin alphabet〉;
Thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all?
Whereat ythe Martyr smiling, and being delighted partly with the man partly with the verse, and wondring that he had answered so aptly; conveyed a certaine round stone unto him, with the touch whereof he was presently ⟨p. 398⟩set on foot from his long and perillous sicknesse. For •he other instance the writer reporteth that which happened unto himselfe. For z
sBasil. Sele•e. de miraculus S. Theclae, lib. 2. cap. 10.
t[Greek or Hebrew]. Ibid. cap. 21.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Ibid. cap. 21.
u[Greek or Hebrew]. Ib. cap 24.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Ib. cap 24.
x[Greek or Hebrew]. Hom. Iliad. •.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Hom. Iliad. •.
y[Greek or Hebrew]. Basil Seleuc. ut supr. cap. 24.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Basil Seleuc. ut supr. cap. 24.
z[Greek or Hebrew] Ibid. cap. 27.〈non-Latin alphabet〉 Ibid. cap. 27.
but that the Martyr the same night appeared unto him, and shaking him by the ear took all the pain away. He addeth further, that the same Martyr used often to appear unto him in his study at other times: but once more specially, while he was in hand with writing this self same book. For having begun to be aweary of the labour, the Martyr (saith he) seemed to sit by close in my sight, where I used to be at my book; and to take the quaternion out of my hand, in which I transcribed these things out of my table-book. Yea and she seemed unto me to read it, and to rejoice, and to smile, and to show unto me by her look that she was pleased with the things that were written, and that it behoved me to finish this work and not to leave it unperfect.
but that the Martyr the same night appeared unto him, and shaking him by the eare tooke all the paine away. He addeth further, that the same Martyr used often to appeare unto him in his studie at other times: but once more specially, while he was in hand with writing this selfe same book. For having begunne to be aweary of the labour, the Martyr (saith he) seemed to sit by close in my sight, where I used to be at my booke; and to take the quaternion out of my hand, in which I transcribed these things out of my table-booke. Yea and she seemed unto me to read it, and to rejoyce, and to smile, and to shew unto me by her looke that she was pleased with the things that were written, and that it behoved me to finish this worke and not to leave it unperfect.
a[Greek or Hebrew], Ibid. cap. 16.〈non-Latin alphabet〉, Ibid. cap. 16.
These things do I here repeat, not with any intention to disgrace antiquity (whereof I profess my self to be as great an admirer as any) but to discover the first grounds from whence that Invocation of Saints did proceed, whereby the honour of God and Christs office of mediation was afterwards so much obscured. That saying of S. Augustin is very memorable, and ⟨p. 399⟩worthy to be pondered. bWhom should I find, that might reconcile me unto thee? Should I have gone unto the Angels? With what prayer? with what sacraments? Many endeavouring to return unto thee, and not being able to do it by themselves, as I hear, have tried these things; and have fallen into the desire of curious visions, and were accounted worthy of illusions. Whether they that had recourse unto the mediation of Martyrs, in such sort as these had unto the mediation of Angels, deserved to be punished with the like delusions; I leave to the judgement of others: the thing which I observed was this; that such dreams and visions as these, joined with the miraculous cures that were wrought at the monuments of the Martyrs, bred first an opinion in mens minds of the Martyrs ability to help them; and so afterward led them to the recommending of themselves unto their prayers and protection. where at first they expected only by their intercession to obtain temporal blessings (such as those cures were that were wrought at their tombs, and other like external benefits) but proceeded afterward to crave their mediation for the procuring of the remission of their sins and the furthering of their everlasting salvation. cAs often, dear brethren, as we do celebrate the solemnities of the holy Martyrs; let us so expect by their intercession to obtain from the Lord TEMPORAL benefits, that by imitating the Martyrs themselves we may deserve to receive eternal: saith the author of the sermon of the Martyrs, which is found among the homilies of S. Augustin and Leo, and in the *Roman Breviary is appointed ⟨p. 400⟩to be read at the common festival days of many Martyrs. dBe mindful of the Martyr (saith S. Basil in his Panegyrical oration upon Mamas) as many of you as have enjoyed him by DREAMS; as many of you as coming to this place, have had him a helper to your praying; as many as to whom, being called by name, he showed himself present by his works; as many travellers as he hath brought back again;
These things doe I here repeat, not with any intention to disgrace antiquitie (whereof I professe my selfe to be as great an admirer as any) but to discover the first grounds from whence that Invocation of Saints did proceed, whereby the honour of God and Christs office of mediation was afterwards so much obscured. That saying of S. Augustin is very memorable, and ⟨p. 399⟩worthy to be pondered. bWhom should I finde, that might reconcile me unto thee? Should I have gone unto the Angels? With what prayer? with what sacraments? Many endevouring to returne unto thee, and not being able to doe it by themselves, as I heare, have tryed these things; and have fallen into the desire of curious visions, and were accounted worthy of illusions. Whether they that had recourse unto the mediation of Martyrs, in such sort as these had unto the mediation of Angels, deserved to be punished with the like delusions; I leave to the judgement of others: the thing which I observed was this; that such dreames and visions as these, joined with the miraculous cures that were wrought at the monuments of the Martyrs, bredd first an opinion in mens mindes of the Martyrs abilitie to helpe them; and so afterward ledd them to the recommending of themselves unto their prayers and protection. where at first they expected onely by their intercession to obtaine temporall b•essings (such as those cures were that were wrought at their t•mbes, and other like externall benefites) but proceeded af•erward to crave their mediation for the procuring of the remission of their sinns and the furthering of their everlasting salvation. cAs often, dear brethren, as we do celebrate the solemnities of the holy Martyrs; let us so expect by their intercession to obtaine from the Lord TEMPORALL benefits, that by imitating the Martyrs themselves we may deserve to receive eternall: saith the author of the sermon of the Martyrs, which is found among the homilies of S. Augustin and Leo, and in the *Romane Breviary is appointed ⟨p. 400⟩to be read at the common festivall dayes of many Martyrs. dBe mindfull of the Martyr (saith S. Basil in his Panegyricall oration upon Mamas) as many of you as have enoyed him by DREAMES; as many of you as comming to this place, have had him a helper to your praying; as many as to whom, being called by name, hee shewed himselfe present by his workes; as many travailers as he hath brought back againe;
bQuem invenirem, qui me reconciliaret tibi? An e•ndum mihi fuit ad Angelos? Quâ prece? quibus sacramentis? Multi conantes ad te redire, neque per seipsos valentes, sicut audio, tentave•unt haec; & incid••unt in deside•ium curiosaru• visionū, & digni habiti sunt illusionibus Augustin. Confes• lib. 10. cap. 42.Quem invenirem, qui me reconciliaret tibi? An e•ndum mihi fuit ad Angelos? Quâ prece? quibus sacramentis? Multi conantes ad te redire, neque per seipsos valentes, sicut audio, tentave•unt haec; & incid••unt in deside•ium curiosaru• visionū, & digni habiti sunt illusionibus Augustin. Confes• lib. 10. cap. 42.
cQuotiescumque, Fratres charissimi, sanctorum Martyrum solennia celebramus; ita ipsis intercedentibus expectemus á Domino consequi temporalia beneficia, ut ipsos Martyres imitando accipere mereamur aeterna. Serm. de Martyrib. ad calcem fe•monum Leonis 1 & tom. 1. Oper. Augustin. serm. 47. de Sanctis.
*Breviar. Roman. in Communi plurimorum Martyrum extra tempus Paschal, lect. 4.Breviar. Roman. in Communi plurimorum Martyrum extra tempus Paschale, lect. 4.
d[Greek or Hebrew]. Basil homil. 26 de S. Mamante.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Basil homil. 26 de S. Mamante.
as many as he hath raised from sickness; as many as he hath restored their children unto being now dead; as many as have received by his means a longer term of life
as many as he hath raysed from sicknesse; as many as he hath restored their children unto being now dead; as many as have received by his meanes a longer terme of life
Here a man may easily discern the breedings of this disease, and as it were the grudgings of that ague that afterwards brake out into a pestilential fever. The Martyr is here vocatus only, not invocatus yet: not called upon by being prayed unto, but called to join with others in putting up the same petition unto his and their God. For as here in the Church militant we have our fellow-soldiers e[Greek or Hebrew] striving together with us, and f[Greek or Hebrew] helping together with their prayers to God for us; and yet because we pray one for another, we do not pray one to another: so the Fathers which taught that the Saints in the Church triumphant do pray for us, might with S. Basil acknowledge that they had the Martyrs [Greek or Hebrew] fellow-helpers to their prayer; and yet pray with them only, and not unto them. For howsoever this evil weed grew apace, (among the superstitious multitude especially) yet was it so cropped at first by the skilful husbandmen of the Church, that it got nothing near that height which under the Papacy we see it is now grown unto. Which that we may the better understand, and more distinctly apprehend, how ⟨p. 401⟩far the recommending of mens selves unto the prayers of the Saints, which began to be used in the latter end of the fourth age after Christ, came short of that Invocation of Saints, which is at this day practised in the Church of Rome: these special differences may be observed betwixt the one and the other. First in those elder times, he that prayed silently was thought to honour God in a singular manner; as one that gbrought faith with him, and confessed that God was the searcher of the heart and reins, and heard his prayer before it was poured out of his mouth: the understanding of the present secrets of the heart, by the general judgement of the Fathers, hbeing no more communicated by him unto the creatures, then the knowledge of things to come. for before the day wherein the secrets of the heart shall be manifested, ialmighty God alone doth behold the hidden things: saith S. Hierome, alleging for proof of this the text, Matth. 6.4. Thy Father that seeth in secret. Psalm. 7.9. God searcheth the hearts and reins. and 1. King. 8.39. Thou only knowest the hearts of all the children of men. But now in the Church of Rome mental prayers are pre•ented to the Saints, as well as vocal:
Here a man may easily discerne the breedings of this disease, and as it were the grudgings of that ague that afterwards brake out into a pestilentiall feaver. The Martyr is here vocatus onely, not invocatus yet: not called upon by being prayed unto, but called to joyne with others in putting up the same petition unto his and their God. For as here in the Church militant we have our fellow-souldiers e〈non-Latin alphabet〉 striving together with us, and f〈non-Latin alphabet〉 helping together with their prayers to God for us; and yet because we pray one for another, we doe not pray one to another: so the Fathers which taught that the Saints in the Church triumphant doe pray for us, might with S. Basil acknowledge that they had the Martyrs 〈non-Latin alphabet〉 fellow-helpers to their prayer; and yet pray with them onely, and not unto them. For howsoever this evill weed grew apace, (among the superstitious multitude especially) yet was it so cropt at first by the skilfull husbandmen of the Church, that it gott nothing neere that height which under the Papac• we see it is now growen unto. Which that we may the better understand, and more distinctly apprehend, how ⟨p. 401⟩farre the recommending of mens selves unto the prayers of the Saints, which began to be used in the latter end of the fourth age after Christ, came short of that Invocation of Saints, which is at this day practised in the Church of Rome: these speciall differences may be observed betwixt the one and the other. First in those elder times, he that prayed silently was thought to honour God in a singular maner; as one that gbrought faith with him, and confessed that God was the searcher of the heart and reynes, and heard his prayer before it was powred out of his mouth: the understanding of the present secrets of the heart, by the generall judgement of the Fathers, hbeing no more communicated by him unto the creatures, then the knowledge of things to come. for before the day wherin the secrets of the heart shall be manifested, i
gQui in silentio orat, sidem defert, & confitetur quòd Deu• scrutator cordis & renis sit, & orationem tuā antè ille audiat, quàm tuo ore fundatur. Ambros. de Sacrament. lib. 6. cap. 4.Qui in silentio orat, sidem defert, & confitetur quòd Deu• scrutator cordis & renis sit, & orationem tuā antè ille audiat, quàm tuo ore fundatur. Ambros. de Sacrament. lib. 6. cap. 4.
h[Greek or Hebrew]. Quaest. 99. ad Antioch. tom. 2. Oper Athanasij, pag. 303. edit. Graecolat.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Quaest. 99. ad Antioch. tom. 2. Oper Athanasij, pag. 303. edit. Graecolat.
iEt priùs quidem solus omnipotens Deus cernit occulta, dicente sermone Evange•ico; Et pater qui videt in abscondito. Et in alio loco: Scrutans corda & renes Deus. Et in Regum volumine. Tu solus nosti corda cunctorum filiorū hominū. Hi•ronym. lib 5· in Ezech. ca. 16. Vid. eund. lib. 4. in Ezech. ca. 14. li. 4▪ in Jerem. cap. 20. & lib. 1. in Matth cap. 9 (suprá. pa. 112.) lo. Chrysost. in Matth homil. 29▪ edit Graec. vel 30. Latin. Gennadium de Ecclesiasticis dogmatib. cap. 81. Jo Cassian. Collat. 7. cap. 13. Sedulium in Rom. 2. Paeschasium de Spiritu Sancto, lib 2. cap. 1. & alios possim.Et priùs quidem solus omnipotens Deus cernit occulta, dicente sermone Euange•ico; Et pater qui videt in abscondito. Et in alio loco: Scrutans corda & renes Deus. Et in Regum volumine. Tu solus nosti corda cunctorum filiorū hominū. Hi•ronym. lib 5· in Ezech. ca. 16. Vid. eund. lib. 4. in Ezech. ca. 14. li. 4 in
Secondly, in the former times kit was a great question, whether at all, or how far, or after what manner the spirits ⟨p. 402⟩of the dead did know the things that concerned us here: and consequently, whether they pray for us only lin general, and for the particulars God answereth us according to our several necessities, where, when, and after what manner he pleaseth. Anselmus Laudunensis in his interlineal Gloss upon that text; Abraham is ignorant of us, and Israel knoweth us not: (Isaiah. 63.16) noteth, that mAugustine sayeth, that the dead, even the Saints do not know what the living do, no not their own sons. And indeed S. Augustine in his book of the Care for the dead, maketh this inference upon that place of Scripture. nIf such great Patriarchs as these were ignorant, what was done toward the people that descended from them, unto whom (believing God) the people it self was promised to come from their stock: how do the dead interpose themselves in knowing and furthering the things and acts of the living? a•d afterward draweth these conclusions from thence, which oHugo de Sancto Victore borrowing from him, hath inserted into his book De Spiritu & animâ, cap. 29. pThe spirits of the dead be there, where they do neither see nor hear the things that are done or fall out unto men in this life. qYet have they such a care of the living, although they know not at all what they do, as we have care of the dead, although ⟨p. 403⟩we know not what they do. rThe dead indeed do not know what is done here, while it is here in doing: but afterward they may hear it by such as die and go unto them from hence; yet not altogether, but as much as is permitted to the one to tell and is fit for the other to hear. They may know it also by the Angels which be here present with us, and carry our souls unto them. They may know also by the revelation of Gods spirit such of the things done here as is necessary for them to know. Hitherto Hugo out of S. Augustin: who is herein also followed by Gratian, in the second part of the Decrees, caus. 13. quaest. 2. cap. 29. where the Gloss layeth down his resolution thus. sGratian moveth a certain incident question; whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living? and he answereth, that they do not: and this he proveth by the authority of Isaiah. (uz. Isaiah. 63.16.)
Secondly, in the former times kit was a great question, whether at all, or how farre, or after what maner the spirits ⟨p. 402⟩of the dead did know the things that concerned us here: and consequently, whether they pray for us onely lin generall, and for the particulars God answereth us according to our severall necessities, where, when, and after what maner he pleaseth. Anselmus Laudunensis in his interlineall Glosse upon that text; Abraham is ignorant of us, and Israel knoweth us not: (Esai. 63.16) noteth, that mAugustine sayeth, that the dead, even the Saints doe not know what the living doe, no not their owne sonnes. And indeed S. Augustine in his booke of the Care for the dead, maketh this inference upon that place of Scripture. nIf such great Patriarches as these were ignorant, what was done toward the people that descended from them, unto whom (beleeving God) the people it selfe was promised to come from their stocke: how doe the dead interpose themselves in knowing and furthering the things and actes of the living? a•d af•erward draweth these conclusions from thence, which oHugo de Sancto Victore borrowing from him, hath inserted into his booke De Spiritu & animâ, cap. 29. pThe spirits of the dead be there, where they doe neyther see nor heare the things that are done or fall out unto men in this life. qYet have they such a care of the living, although they know not at all what they doe, as we have care of the dead, although ⟨p. 403⟩we know not what they doe. rThe dead indeed doe not know what is done here, while it is here in doing: but afterward they may heare it by such as die and goe unto them from hence; yet not altogether, but as much as is permitted to the one to tell and is fit for the other to heare. They may know it also by the Angels which be here present with us, and carry our soules unto them. They may know also by the revelation of Gods spirit such of the things done here as is necessary for them to know. Hitherto Hugo out of S. Augustin: who is herein also followed by Gratian, in the second part of the Decrees, caus. 13. quaest. 2. cap. 29. where the Glosse layeth downe his resolution thus.
kRespondeo magnā quidē esse quaestionē, nec in praesentia disserendam, quòd sit ope•is prolixioris; utrum, vel quatenus, vel quomodo ea quae circa nos aguntur noverint spiritus mortuorum. Augustin. in Psal. 108. •narrat. 1.Respondeo magnā quidē esse quaestionē, nec in praesentia disserendam, quòd sit ope•is prolixioris; utrum, vel quatenus, vel quomodo ea quae circa nos aguntur noverint spiritus mortuorum. Augustin. in Psal. 108. •narrat. 1.
lVid. eund. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16 suprá citatum, initio pag. 392. Sanctos in genere sollicitos esse pro Ecclesiâ, & orare posse, atque etiam reipsâ orare; fatentur Philippus in Apologiâ Confessionis Augustanae, articulo de invocatione Sanctorum, Brentius in Confessione Wirtembergensi, capite de invocatione Sanctorum, Kemnitius in tertiâ part Examinis Concilij Tridentini: Calvinus quoque lib•o t•rtio Institut. cap. 20. sect. 21. & 24. non repugnat huic sententiae. Bellarmin. de Missa, lib 2. cap. 8.Vid. eund. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16 suprá citatum, initio pag. 392. Sanctos in genere sollicitos esse pro Ecclesiâ, & orare posse, atque etiam reipsâ orare; fatentur Philippus in Apologiâ Confessionis Augustanae, articulo de invocatione Sanctorum, Brentius in Confessione Wirtembergensi, capite de invocatione Sanctorum, Kemnitius in tertiâ parte Examinis Concilij Tridētini: Calvinus quoque lib•o t•rtio Institut. cap. 20. sect. 21. & 24. non repugnat huic sententiae. Bellarmin. de Missa, lib 2. cap. 8.
mAugustinus dicit: Quia mortui nesciunt, etiā sancti, quid agant vivi, etiā eorū filij Gloss. inte•lineal in Isaiah 63.Augustinus dicit: Quia mortui nesciunt, etiā sancti, quid agant vivi, etiā eorū filij Gloss. inte•lineal in
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in shape compleat men, and oftentimes appeare upon horses armed?
Et his enim apparent imagines vivorum atque mortuorū: sed cùm fuerint sensibus redditi, quoscunque mortuos vidisse see dixerint, veré cum eis fuisse creduntur: nec attendunt qui haec audiunt, similiter ab eis absentium atque nescientiū quorundam etiam imagines visas esse vivorum. Ibid. cap. 12.Et his enim apparent imagines vivorum atque mortuorū: sed cùm fuerint sensibus redditi, quoscunque mortuos vidisse se dixerint, veré cum eis fuisse creduntur: nec attendunt qui haec audiunt, similiter ab eis absentium atque nescientiū quorundam etiam imagines visas esse vivorum. Ibid. cap. 12.
nNam Mediolani apud sanctos Protasium & Gervasium martyrs, expresso nomine, sicut defunctorum quos eodem modo commemorabant, adhuc vivum daemones Episcopum confitebantur Ambrosium, atque ut sibi parceret obsecrabant; illo aliud agente, atque hoc cùm ageretur omnino nesciente. Ibid cap. 17.Nam Mediolani apud sanctos Protasium & Gervasium martyres, expresso nomine, sicut defunctorum quos eodem modo commemorabant, adhuc vivum daemones Episcopum confitebantur Ambrosium, atque ut sibi parceret obsecrabant; illo aliud agente, atque hoc cùm ageretur omnino nesciente. Ibid cap. 17.
the Marty• (saith he) is such a lover of learning, and taketh such a delight in these oratorious p•ayses; that I will tell somewhat of those things that were done to my selfe and for my selfe: vvhich the Martyr, who did it, doth know to have beene done, and that I lye not. Then he telleth, how having prepar•d an oration for her anniversarie festivitie, the day before it should be pronounced, he was taken with such an extreame paine in his eare, that the auditorie was like to be quite disappointed:
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almightie God alone doth behold the hidden things: saith S. Hierome, alledging for proofe of this the text,
. Thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men. But now in the Church of Rome mentall prayers are pre•ented to the Saints, as well as vocall:
Gratian moveth a certaine incident question; whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living? and he answereth, that they doe not: and this he proveth by the authority of Esai. (vz. Esai. 63.16.)
Esai 63
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nSi tanti Patriarchae quid erga populum ex his procreatū ageretur, ignoraverunt, quibus Deo credentibus populus ipse de illorū stirpe promissus est: quo modo mortui vivorum rebus atque actibus cognoscendis adjuvandisque miscentur? Augustin. de Curâ pro mo•tuis, cap. 13.Si tanti Patriarchae quid erga populum ex his procreatū ageretur, ignoraverunt, quibus Deo credentibus populus ipse de illorū stirpe promissus est: quo modo mortui vivorum rebus atque actibus cognoscendis adjuvandisque miscentur? Augustin. de Curâ pro mo•tuis, cap. 13.
oLib. de Spiritu & Animâ, tom. 3. operum August qui idē est cū libro 2. de Animâ, inter opera Hugonis Victorint.Lib. de Spiritu & Animâ, tom. 3. operum August qui idē est cū libro 2. de Animâ, inter opera Hugonis Victorint.
pIbi sunt spiritus defunctorum, ubi non vident quaecunque aguntur, aut eveniunt in istâ vitâ hominibus. •ugustin. de Curâ •ro mortuis, cap. 13.
qIta illi (Diviti) fuit cura de vivis, quanvis quid agerent, omnino nesciret: quemadmodum est nobis cura de mortuis, quanvis quid agant, omnino utique nesciamus. Ibid. cap. 14.
rProínde fatendum est, nescire quidem mortuos quid hîc agatur, sed dum hîc agitur; posteà veró audire ab eis, qui hinc ad eos moriendo p•rgunt. Non quidē omnia, sed quae sinuntur indicare, qui sinuntur etiam ista meminisse; & quae illos, quibus haec indicant, oportet audire. Possunt & ab Angelis, qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt, audire aliquid mortui, quod unumquenque illo•um audire debere judicat cui cuncta subjecta sunt. etc. Possunt etiam spiritus mortuorum aliqua quae hîc aguntur, quae necessarium est eos nosse, & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse, non solùm praeterita vel praesentia, verumetiam futura spiritu Dei revelante cognoscere. Ibid. cap. 15.Proínde fatendum est, nescire quidem mortuos quid hîc agatur, sed dum hîc agitur; posteà veró audire ab eis, qui hinc ad eos moriendo p•rgunt. Non quidē omnia, sed quae sinuntur indicare, qui sinuntur etiam ista meminisse; & quae illos, quibus haec indicant, oportet audire. Possunt & ab Angelis, qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt, audire aliquid mortui, quod unumquenque illo•um audire debere judicat cui cuncta subjecta sunt. etc. Possunt etiam spiritus mortuorum aliqua quae hîc aguntur, quae necessarium est eos nosse, & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse, non solùm praeterita vel praesentia, verumetiam futura spiritu Dei revelante cognoscere. Ibid. cap. 15.
sFacit Grat. quamdam incidentem quaestionem; utrùm defuncti sciunt quae in mundo geruntur á viris? & respondet, quòd non: & hoc probat auctoritate Isaiae. Gloss. in 13. q. 2. De mortuis.
