An answer to a challenge madeAn ansvver to a challenge made
An answer to a challenge made by a Jesuit in Ireland Wherein the judgement of antiquity in the points questioned is truly delivered, and the novelty of the now romish doctrine plainly discovered. By James Usher Bishop of Meath.An ansvver to a challenge made by a Iesuite in Ireland Wherein the iudgement of antiquity in the points questioned is truely delivered, and the noveltie of the now romish doctrine plainly discovered. By Iames Vssher Bishop of Meath.
James Ussher 1581–1656Dublin: printed by the Society of Stationers and Eliot's Court Press, 1624Dublin: printed by the Societie of Stationers and Eliot's Court Press, 1624
[24], 527, [9] p. · 153k words · STC 24542 · ESTC S118933
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
iIf one in his sleep may see me, telling unto him something that is done, or foretelling also something that is to come; when I am altogether ignorant thereof, and have no care at all, not only of what he dreameth, but whether he awaketh I being a sleep, or he sleepeth I being awake, or whether both of us at one and the some time do either wake or sleep, when he seeth the dream in which he seeth me: what marvel is it if the dead, not knowing nor perceiving these things, are yet seen in dreams by the living, and say somewhat which they being awake may know to be true? kBut such is mans weakness, that when any one seeth a dead man in his sleep, he thinketh that he doth see his soul; but when he dreameth in like manner of one that is alive, he maketh no doubt, that it is neither his soul nor his body, but a similitude of the man that did appear unto him: as if not the soul•s but the similitudes of dead men, not knowing it, might not also after the same sort appear. So he telleth of one Eulogius a rhetorician ⟨p. 395⟩in Carthage, who lighting upon a certain obscure place in Ciceroes Rhetorics which he was the next day to read unto his scholars, was so troubled therewith that at night he could scarce sleep. lIn which night (saith S. Augustin) I expounded unto him while he was in a dream, that which he did not understand: nay not I, but my image, I not knowing, and so far beyond the sea either doing or dreaming some other thing, and nothing at all caring for his cares. The like he doth also note to happen unto those that are in raptures and ecstasies. mFor unto these also do appear images as well of the living as of the dead: but after they have been restored unto their senses, as many of the dead as they say that they have seen, with them they are truly believed to have been: neither do they mark who hear these things, that the images of some living men, that were absent and ignorant of these things, were in like manner seen by them. And for the confession of the Devils in parties possessed, he bringeth in a memorable instance, of that which fell out in
Milan, at the place of the memorial of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius. where the Devils did not only make mention of the Martyrs that were dead, but also of Ambrose the Bishop then living; and besought him that he would spare them:
iIf one in his sleepe may see me, telling unto him something that is done, or foretelling also something that is to come; when I am altogether ignorant thereof, and have no care at all, not onely of what he dreameth, but whether he awaketh I being a sleepe, or he sleepeth I being awake, or whether both of us at one and the some time doe eyther wake or sleepe, when he seeth the dreame in which he seeth me: what marvell is it if the dead, not knowing nor perceiving these things, are yet seene in dreames by the living, and say somewhat which they being awake may know to be true? kBut such is mans weak•esse, that when any one seeth a dead man in his sleepe, he thinketh that he doth see his soule; but when he dreameth in like maner of one that is alive, he maketh no doubt, that it is neyther his soule nor his body, but a similitude of the man that did appeare unto him: as if not the soul•s but the similitudes of dead men, not knowing it, might not also after the same sort appeare. So he telleth of one Eulogius a rhetorician ⟨p. 395⟩in Carthage, who lighting upon a certaine obscure place in Ciceroes Rhetorickes which he was the next day to reade unto his schollers, was so troubled therwith that at night he could scarce sleepe. lIn which night (saith S. Augustin) I expounded unto him while he was in a dreame, that which he did not understand: nay not I, but my image, I not knowing, and so farre beyond the sea eyther doing or dreaming some other thing, and nothing at all caring for his cares. The like he doth also note to happen unto those that are in raptures and extasies. mFor unto these also doe appeare images as well of the living as of the dead: but after they have been restored unto their senses, as many of the dead as they say that they have seen, with them they are truely beleeved to have beene: neyther doe they marke who heare these things, that the images of some living men, that were absent and ignorant of these things, were in like maner seene by them. And for the confession of the Divels in parties possessed, he bringeth in a memorable instance, of that which fell out in nMillaine, at the place of the memoriall of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius. where the Divels did not only make mention of the Martyrs that were dead, but also of Ambrose the Bishop then living; and besought him that he would spare them:
iSi ergo me potest aliquis in somnis videre, sibi aliquid quod factum est indica•tem, vel etiam quod futurum est praenu•ciantem; cùm id ego prorsus ignorē, & omninò non curem, non solùm quid ille somniet, sed utrùm dormiente me vigilet, an vigilante me dormiat, an uno eodemque tempore vigilemus ambo sive dormiamus, quando ille som•ium videt & in quo me videt: quid mirum si nescientes mortui, nec ista sentientes, tamen á viventibus videntur in somnijs, & aliquid dicunt, quod evigilantes verum esse cognoscant? August de curâ pro mortuis, cap. 10.Si ergo me potest aliquis in somnis videre, sibi aliquid quod factum est indica•tem, vel etiam quod futurum est praenu•ciantem; cùm id ego prorsus ignorē, & omninò non curem, non solùm quid ille somniet, sed utrùm dormiēte me vigilet, an vigilante me dormiat, an uno eodemque tempore vigilemus ambo sive dormiamus, quando ille som•ium videt & in quo me videt: quid mirum si nescientes mortui, nec ista sentientes, tamen á viventibus videntur in somnijs, & aliquid dicunt, quod evigilantes verum esse cognoscant? August de curâ pro mortuis, cap. 10.
kSic autem infirmitas humana sese habet, ut cùm mortuum in somnis quisque viderit, ipsius animam see videre arbitretur; cùm autē vivum similiter somnia verit, non ejus animam, neque corpus, sed hominis similitudinem sibi apparuisse non dubitet: quasi non possint & mortuorum hominum, eodem modo nescientium, non animae sed similitudines apparere dormientibus. Ibid. cap. 11.Sic autem infirmitas humana sese habet, ut cùm mortuum in somnis quisque viderit, ipsius animam se videre arbitretur; cùm autē vivum similiter somnia verit, non ejus animam, neque corpus, sed hominis similitudinem sibi apparuisse non dubitet: quasi non possint & mortuorum hominum, eodem modo nescientium, non animae sed similitudines apparere dormientibus. Ibid. cap. 11.
lQuâ nocte somnianti, ego illi quod non intelligebat exposui: immò non ego, sed imago mea nesciente me, & tam longé trans mare aliquid aliud, sive agente, sive somniante, & nihil de illius curis omnino currant. Ibid.Quâ nocte somnianti, ego illi quod non intelligebat exposui: immò non ego, sed imago mea nesciente me, & tam longé trans mare aliquid aliud, sive agente, sive somniante, & nihil de illius curis omnino curante. Ibid.
mEt his enim apparent imagines vivorum atque mortuorū: sed cùm fuerint sensibus redditi, quoscunque mortuos vidisse see dixerint, veré cum eis fuisse creduntur: nec attendunt qui haec audiunt, similiter ab eis absentium atque nescientiū quorundam etiam imagines visas esse vivorum. Ibid. cap. 12.Et his enim apparent imagines vivorum atque mortuorū: sed cùm fuerint sensibus redditi, quoscunque mortuos vidisse se dixerint, veré cum eis fuisse creduntur: nec attendunt qui haec audiunt, similiter ab eis absentium atque nescientiū quorundam etiam imagines visas esse vivorum. Ibid. cap. 12.
nNam Mediolani apud sanctos Protasium & Gervasium martyrs, expresso nomine, sicut defunctorum quos eodem modo commemorabant, adhuc vivum daemones Episcopum confitebantur Ambrosium, atque ut sibi parceret obsecrabant; illo aliud agente, atque hoc cùm ageretur omnino nesciente. Ibid cap. 17.Nam Mediolani apud sanctos Protasium & Gervasium martyres, expresso nomine, sicut defunctorum quos eodem modo commemorabant, adhuc vivum daemones Episcopum confitebantur Ambrosium, atque ut sibi parceret obsecrabant; illo aliud agente, atque hoc cùm ageretur omnino nesciente. Ibid cap. 17.
But as S. Augustin doth put us in mind in that discourse, that omen are sometimes led into great errors ⟨p. 396⟩by deceitful dreams or visions; and that it is just, that they should suffer such things. so S. Chrysostom giveth a good admonition, that little heed should be taken of the Devils sayings. pWhat is it then (saith he) that the Devils do say; I am the soul of such a Monk? Surely for this I believe it not, because the Devils say it: for they deceive their hearers. And therefore Paul (Act. 16.18.) silenced them, although they spake truth; least taking occasion from thence, they might mingle false things again with those truths, and get credit to themselves. and touching dreams and apparitions of the dead, he addeth further. qIf at this time, the dreams that appear oftentimes in the shapes of them that have departed this life, have deceived and corrupted many: much more if this were once settled in mens minds, that many of those that are departed did return again unto us; that wicked Devil would plot a thousand guiles, and bring in much deceit into our life. And for this cause God hath shut up the doors, and doth not suffer any of the deceased to return back and tell the things that are there: least he, taking occasion from thence, should bring in all his own devices. It was the complaint of Synesius in his time, that there were rmany both private men and Priests too, who feigned certain dreams, which they called Revelations· and in ancient writings we meet with sundry visions, which if they be truly related, may more justly be suspected to have been illusions of deceitful spirits, than true apparitions of blessed either Souls or Angels.
But as S. Augustin doth put us in minde in that discourse, that omen are sometimes ledd into great errors ⟨p. 396⟩by deceitfull dreames or visions; and that it is just, that they should suffer such things. so S. Chrysostom giveth a good admonition, that little heed should be taken of the Divels sayings. pWhat is it then (saith he) that the Divels doe say; I am the soule of such a Monke? Surely for this I beleeve it not, because the Divels say it: for they deceive their hearers. And therefore Paul (Act. 16.18.) silenced them, although they spake truth; least taking occasion from thence, they might mingle false things againe with those truthes, and get credi• to themselves. and touching dreames and apparitions of the dead, he addeth further. qIf at this time, the dreames that appeare oftentimes in the shapes of them that have departed this life, have deceived and corrupted many: much more if this were once setled in mens mindes, that many of those that are departed did returne againe unto us; that wicked Divel would plot a thousand guiles, and bring in much deceit into our life. And for this cause God hath shut up the doores, and doth not suffer any of the deceased to returne back and tell the things that are there: least he, taking occasion from thence, should bring in all his own devices. It was the complaint of Synesius in his time, that there were rmany both private men and Priests too, who fayned certaine dreames, which they called Revelations· and in ancient writings we meet with sundry visions, which if they be truely related, may more justly be suspected to have been illusions of deceitfull spirits, than true apparitions of blessed eyther Soules or Angels.
oAliquando autem fallacibus som•ijs (all. visis) hi homines in magnos mittuntur errors: quos talia perpeti justum est. Ibid. cap. 10.Aliquando autem fallacibus som•ijs (al. visis) hi homines in magnos mittuntur errores: quos talia perpeti justum est. Ibid. cap. 10.
p[Greek or Hebrew]. •hrysost. de Lazaro, conc. 2. tom. 5. edit. Savil. pag. 235.236.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. •hrysost. de Lazaro, conc. 2. tom. 5. edit. Savil. pag. 235.236.
q[Greek or Hebrew]. Id. de Lazar. conc. 4. ibid pag 256.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Id. de Lazar. conc. 4. ibid pag 256.
r[Greek or Hebrew]. Sins. epist. 54.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Synes. epist. 54.
He that will advisedly read over Basilius Seleuciensis ⟨p. 397⟩his narration of the miracles of S. Thecla (for example) must either reject the work as strangely corrupted, or easily be drawn to yield unto that which I have said. For who can digest such relations and observations as these? that sthey who watch the night that goeth before her festivity, do at that time yearly see her driving a fiery chariot in the air, and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus, as a place which she did principally affect, in regard of the commodity and pleasantness of the situation. that both she and other of the Saints deceased do trejoice much in solitary places, and do ordinarily dwell in them. that after her death she should uaffect Oratory and P•ëtry, and be continually delighted with such as did more accurately set forth her praises: (even as Homer bringeth in Apollo, xtickled at the heart with hearing the songs that were made unto him in the camp of the Grecians:) of which he produceth two special instances: the one of Alypius the Grammarian, unto whom being forsaken of the physicians Thecla (he saith) did appear in the night, and demanded of him, what he ailed, and what he would. He, to show his art, and to win the Virgins favour with the aptness of the verse; returneth for an answer unto her that verse, wherewith Homer maketh Achilles to answer his mother Thetis, in the first of the Iliads:
[Greek or Hebrew];
Thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all?
Whereat ythe Martyr smiling, and being delighted partly with the man partly with the verse, and wondering that he had answered so aptly; conveyed a certain round stone unto him, with the touch whereof he was presently ⟨p. 398⟩set on foot from his long and perilous sickness. For •he other instance the writer reporteth that which happened unto himself. For zthe Marty• (saith he) is such a lover of learning, and taketh such a delight in these oratorious praises; that I will tell somewhat of those things that were done to my self and for my self: which the Martyr, who did it, doth know to have been done, and that I lye not. Then he telleth, how having prepared an oration for her anniversary festivity, the day before it should be pronounced, he was taken with such an extreme pain in his ear, that the auditory was like to be quite disappointed:
He that will advisedly reade over Basilius Seleuciensis ⟨p. 397⟩his narration of the miracles of S. Thecla (for example) must eyther reject the worke as strangely corrupted, or easily be drawne to yeeld unto that which I have said. For who can digest such relations and observations as these? that sthey who watch the night that goeth before her festivitie, doe at that time yearely see her driving a fiery chariot in the ayre, and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus, as a place which she did principally affect, in regard of the commoditie and pleasantnesse of the situation. that both shee and other of the Saints deceased do trejoyce much in solitary places, and doe ordinarily dwell in them. that after her death she should uaffect Oratory and P•ëtry, and be continually delighted with such as did more accurately set forth her prayses: (even as Homer bringeth in Apollo, xtickled at the heart with hearing the songs that were made unto him in the campe of the Grecia•s:) of which he produceth two speciall instances: the one of Alypius the Grammarian, unto whom being forsaken of the physicians Thecla (he saith) did appeare in the night, and demanded of him, what he ayled, and what he would. He, to shew his art, and to win the Virgins favour with the aptnesse of the verse; returneth for an answer unto her that verse, wherewith Homer maketh Achilles to answer his mother Thetis, in the first of the Iliads:
〈non-Latin alphabet〉;
Thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all?
Whereat ythe Martyr smiling, and being delighted partly with the man partly with the verse, and wondring that he had answered so aptly; conveyed a certaine round stone unto him, with the touch whereof he was presently ⟨p. 398⟩set on foot from his long and perillous sicknesse. For •he other instance the writer reporteth that which happened unto himselfe. For z
sBasil. Sele•e. de miraculus S. Theclae, lib. 2. cap. 10.
t[Greek or Hebrew]. Ibid. cap. 21.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Ibid. cap. 21.
u[Greek or Hebrew]. Ib. cap 24.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Ib. cap 24.
x[Greek or Hebrew]. Hom. Iliad. •.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Hom. Iliad. •.
y[Greek or Hebrew]. Basil Seleuc. ut supr. cap. 24.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Basil Seleuc. ut supr. cap. 24.
z[Greek or Hebrew] Ibid. cap. 27.〈non-Latin alphabet〉 Ibid. cap. 27.
but that the Martyr the same night appeared unto him, and shaking him by the ear took all the pain away. He addeth further, that the same Martyr used often to appear unto him in his study at other times: but once more specially, while he was in hand with writing this self same book. For having begun to be aweary of the labour, the Martyr (saith he) seemed to sit by close in my sight, where I used to be at my book; and to take the quaternion out of my hand, in which I transcribed these things out of my table-book. Yea and she seemed unto me to read it, and to rejoice, and to smile, and to show unto me by her look that she was pleased with the things that were written, and that it behoved me to finish this work and not to leave it unperfect.
but that the Martyr the same night appeared unto him, and shaking him by the eare tooke all the paine away. He addeth further, that the same Martyr used often to appeare unto him in his studie at other times: but once more specially, while he was in hand with writing this selfe same book. For having begunne to be aweary of the labour, the Martyr (saith he) seemed to sit by close in my sight, where I used to be at my booke; and to take the quaternion out of my hand, in which I transcribed these things out of my table-booke. Yea and she seemed unto me to read it, and to rejoyce, and to smile, and to shew unto me by her looke that she was pleased with the things that were written, and that it behoved me to finish this worke and not to leave it unperfect.
a[Greek or Hebrew], Ibid. cap. 16.〈non-Latin alphabet〉, Ibid. cap. 16.
These things do I here repeat, not with any intention to disgrace antiquity (whereof I profess my self to be as great an admirer as any) but to discover the first grounds from whence that Invocation of Saints did proceed, whereby the honour of God and Christs office of mediation was afterwards so much obscured. That saying of S. Augustin is very memorable, and ⟨p. 399⟩worthy to be pondered. bWhom should I find, that might reconcile me unto thee? Should I have gone unto the Angels? With what prayer? with what sacraments? Many endeavouring to return unto thee, and not being able to do it by themselves, as I hear, have tried these things; and have fallen into the desire of curious visions, and were accounted worthy of illusions. Whether they that had recourse unto the mediation of Martyrs, in such sort as these had unto the mediation of Angels, deserved to be punished with the like delusions; I leave to the judgement of others: the thing which I observed was this; that such dreams and visions as these, joined with the miraculous cures that were wrought at the monuments of the Martyrs, bred first an opinion in mens minds of the Martyrs ability to help them; and so afterward led them to the recommending of themselves unto their prayers and protection. where at first they expected only by their intercession to obtain temporal blessings (such as those cures were that were wrought at their tombs, and other like external benefits) but proceeded afterward to crave their mediation for the procuring of the remission of their sins and the furthering of their everlasting salvation. cAs often, dear brethren, as we do celebrate the solemnities of the holy Martyrs; let us so expect by their intercession to obtain from the Lord TEMPORAL benefits, that by imitating the Martyrs themselves we may deserve to receive eternal: saith the author of the sermon of the Martyrs, which is found among the homilies of S. Augustin and Leo, and in the *Roman Breviary is appointed ⟨p. 400⟩to be read at the common festival days of many Martyrs. dBe mindful of the Martyr (saith S. Basil in his Panegyrical oration upon Mamas) as many of you as have enjoyed him by DREAMS; as many of you as coming to this place, have had him a helper to your praying; as many as to whom, being called by name, he showed himself present by his works; as many travellers as he hath brought back again;
These things doe I here repeat, not with any intention to disgrace antiquitie (whereof I professe my selfe to be as great an admirer as any) but to discover the first grounds from whence that Invocation of Saints did proceed, whereby the honour of God and Christs office of mediation was afterwards so much obscured. That saying of S. Augustin is very memorable, and ⟨p. 399⟩worthy to be pondered. bWhom should I finde, that might reconcile me unto thee? Should I have gone unto the Angels? With what prayer? with what sacraments? Many endevouring to returne unto thee, and not being able to doe it by themselves, as I heare, have tryed these things; and have fallen into the desire of curious visions, and were accounted worthy of illusions. Whether they that had recourse unto the mediation of Martyrs, in such sort as these had unto the mediation of Angels, deserved to be punished with the like delusions; I leave to the judgement of others: the thing which I observed was this; that such dreames and visions as these, joined with the miraculous cures that were wrought at the monuments of the Martyrs, bredd first an opinion in mens mindes of the Martyrs abilitie to helpe them; and so afterward ledd them to the recommending of themselves unto their prayers and protection. where at first they expected onely by their intercession to obtaine temporall b•essings (such as those cures were that were wrought at their t•mbes, and other like externall benefites) but proceeded af•erward to crave their mediation for the procuring of the remission of their sinns and the furthering of their everlasting salvation. cAs often, dear brethren, as we do celebrate the solemnities of the holy Martyrs; let us so expect by their intercession to obtaine from the Lord TEMPORALL benefits, that by imitating the Martyrs themselves we may deserve to receive eternall: saith the author of the sermon of the Martyrs, which is found among the homilies of S. Augustin and Leo, and in the *Romane Breviary is appointed ⟨p. 400⟩to be read at the common festivall dayes of many Martyrs. dBe mindfull of the Martyr (saith S. Basil in his Panegyricall oration upon Mamas) as many of you as have enoyed him by DREAMES; as many of you as comming to this place, have had him a helper to your praying; as many as to whom, being called by name, hee shewed himselfe present by his workes; as many travailers as he hath brought back againe;
bQuem invenirem, qui me reconciliaret tibi? An e•ndum mihi fuit ad Angelos? Quâ prece? quibus sacramentis? Multi conantes ad te redire, neque per seipsos valentes, sicut audio, tentave•unt haec; & incid••unt in deside•ium curiosaru• visionū, & digni habiti sunt illusionibus Augustin. Confes• lib. 10. cap. 42.Quem invenirem, qui me reconciliaret tibi? An e•ndum mihi fuit ad Angelos? Quâ prece? quibus sacramentis? Multi conantes ad te redire, neque per seipsos valentes, sicut audio, tentave•unt haec; & incid••unt in deside•ium curiosaru• visionū, & digni habiti sunt illusionibus Augustin. Confes• lib. 10. cap. 42.
cQuotiescumque, Fratres charissimi, sanctorum Martyrum solennia celebramus; ita ipsis intercedentibus expectemus á Domino consequi temporalia beneficia, ut ipsos Martyres imitando accipere mereamur aeterna. Serm. de Martyrib. ad calcem fe•monum Leonis 1 & tom. 1. Oper. Augustin. serm. 47. de Sanctis.
*Breviar. Roman. in Communi plurimorum Martyrum extra tempus Paschal, lect. 4.Breviar. Roman. in Communi plurimorum Martyrum extra tempus Paschale, lect. 4.
d[Greek or Hebrew]. Basil homil. 26 de S. Mamante.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Basil homil. 26 de S. Mamante.
as many as he hath raised from sickness; as many as he hath restored their children unto being now dead; as many as have received by his means a longer term of life
as many as he hath raysed from sicknesse; as many as he hath restored their children unto being now dead; as many as have received by his meanes a longer terme of life
Here a man may easily discern the breedings of this disease, and as it were the grudgings of that ague that afterwards brake out into a pestilential fever. The Martyr is here vocatus only, not invocatus yet: not called upon by being prayed unto, but called to join with others in putting up the same petition unto his and their God. For as here in the Church militant we have our fellow-soldiers e[Greek or Hebrew] striving together with us, and f[Greek or Hebrew] helping together with their prayers to God for us; and yet because we pray one for another, we do not pray one to another: so the Fathers which taught that the Saints in the Church triumphant do pray for us, might with S. Basil acknowledge that they had the Martyrs [Greek or Hebrew] fellow-helpers to their prayer; and yet pray with them only, and not unto them. For howsoever this evil weed grew apace, (among the superstitious multitude especially) yet was it so cropped at first by the skilful husbandmen of the Church, that it got nothing near that height which under the Papacy we see it is now grown unto. Which that we may the better understand, and more distinctly apprehend, how ⟨p. 401⟩far the recommending of mens selves unto the prayers of the Saints, which began to be used in the latter end of the fourth age after Christ, came short of that Invocation of Saints, which is at this day practised in the Church of Rome: these special differences may be observed betwixt the one and the other. First in those elder times, he that prayed silently was thought to honour God in a singular manner; as one that gbrought faith with him, and confessed that God was the searcher of the heart and reins, and heard his prayer before it was poured out of his mouth: the understanding of the present secrets of the heart, by the general judgement of the Fathers, hbeing no more communicated by him unto the creatures, then the knowledge of things to come. for before the day wherein the secrets of the heart shall be manifested, ialmighty God alone doth behold the hidden things: saith S. Hierome, alleging for proof of this the text, Matth. 6.4. Thy Father that seeth in secret. Psalm. 7.9. God searcheth the hearts and reins. and 1. King. 8.39. Thou only knowest the hearts of all the children of men. But now in the Church of Rome mental prayers are pre•ented to the Saints, as well as vocal:
Here a man may easily discerne the breedings of this disease, and as it were the grudgings of that ague that afterwards brake out into a pestilentiall feaver. The Martyr is here vocatus onely, not invocatus yet: not called upon by being prayed unto, but called to joyne with others in putting up the same petition unto his and their God. For as here in the Church militant we have our fellow-souldiers e〈non-Latin alphabet〉 striving together with us, and f〈non-Latin alphabet〉 helping together with their prayers to God for us; and yet because we pray one for another, we doe not pray one to another: so the Fathers which taught that the Saints in the Church triumphant doe pray for us, might with S. Basil acknowledge that they had the Martyrs 〈non-Latin alphabet〉 fellow-helpers to their prayer; and yet pray with them onely, and not unto them. For howsoever this evill weed grew apace, (among the superstitious multitude especially) yet was it so cropt at first by the skilfull husbandmen of the Church, that it gott nothing neere that height which under the Papac• we see it is now growen unto. Which that we may the better understand, and more distinctly apprehend, how ⟨p. 401⟩farre the recommending of mens selves unto the prayers of the Saints, which began to be used in the latter end of the fourth age after Christ, came short of that Invocation of Saints, which is at this day practised in the Church of Rome: these speciall differences may be observed betwixt the one and the other. First in those elder times, he that prayed silently was thought to honour God in a singular maner; as one that gbrought faith with him, and confessed that God was the searcher of the heart and reynes, and heard his prayer before it was powred out of his mouth: the understanding of the present secrets of the heart, by the generall judgement of the Fathers, hbeing no more communicated by him unto the creatures, then the knowledge of things to come. for before the day wherin the secrets of the heart shall be manifested, i
gQui in silentio orat, sidem defert, & confitetur quòd Deu• scrutator cordis & renis sit, & orationem tuā antè ille audiat, quàm tuo ore fundatur. Ambros. de Sacrament. lib. 6. cap. 4.Qui in silentio orat, sidem defert, & confitetur quòd Deu• scrutator cordis & renis sit, & orationem tuā antè ille audiat, quàm tuo ore fundatur. Ambros. de Sacrament. lib. 6. cap. 4.
h[Greek or Hebrew]. Quaest. 99. ad Antioch. tom. 2. Oper Athanasij, pag. 303. edit. Graecolat.〈non-Latin alphabet〉. Quaest. 99. ad Antioch. tom. 2. Oper Athanasij, pag. 303. edit. Graecolat.
iEt priùs quidem solus omnipotens Deus cernit occulta, dicente sermone Evange•ico; Et pater qui videt in abscondito. Et in alio loco: Scrutans corda & renes Deus. Et in Regum volumine. Tu solus nosti corda cunctorum filiorū hominū. Hi•ronym. lib 5· in Ezech. ca. 16. Vid. eund. lib. 4. in Ezech. ca. 14. li. 4▪ in Jerem. cap. 20. & lib. 1. in Matth cap. 9 (suprá. pa. 112.) lo. Chrysost. in Matth homil. 29▪ edit Graec. vel 30. Latin. Gennadium de Ecclesiasticis dogmatib. cap. 81. Jo Cassian. Collat. 7. cap. 13. Sedulium in Rom. 2. Paeschasium de Spiritu Sancto, lib 2. cap. 1. & alios possim.Et priùs quidem solus omnipotens Deus cernit occulta, dicente sermone Euange•ico; Et pater qui videt in abscondito. Et in alio loco: Scrutans corda & renes Deus. Et in Regum volumine. Tu solus nosti corda cunctorum filiorū hominū. Hi•ronym. lib 5· in Ezech. ca. 16. Vid. eund. lib. 4. in Ezech. ca. 14. li. 4 in
Secondly, in the former times kit was a great question, whether at all, or how far, or after what manner the spirits ⟨p. 402⟩of the dead did know the things that concerned us here: and consequently, whether they pray for us only lin general, and for the particulars God answereth us according to our several necessities, where, when, and after what manner he pleaseth. Anselmus Laudunensis in his interlineal Gloss upon that text; Abraham is ignorant of us, and Israel knoweth us not: (Isaiah. 63.16) noteth, that mAugustine sayeth, that the dead, even the Saints do not know what the living do, no not their own sons. And indeed S. Augustine in his book of the Care for the dead, maketh this inference upon that place of Scripture. nIf such great Patriarchs as these were ignorant, what was done toward the people that descended from them, unto whom (believing God) the people it self was promised to come from their stock: how do the dead interpose themselves in knowing and furthering the things and acts of the living? a•d afterward draweth these conclusions from thence, which oHugo de Sancto Victore borrowing from him, hath inserted into his book De Spiritu & animâ, cap. 29. pThe spirits of the dead be there, where they do neither see nor hear the things that are done or fall out unto men in this life. qYet have they such a care of the living, although they know not at all what they do, as we have care of the dead, although ⟨p. 403⟩we know not what they do. rThe dead indeed do not know what is done here, while it is here in doing: but afterward they may hear it by such as die and go unto them from hence; yet not altogether, but as much as is permitted to the one to tell and is fit for the other to hear. They may know it also by the Angels which be here present with us, and carry our souls unto them. They may know also by the revelation of Gods spirit such of the things done here as is necessary for them to know. Hitherto Hugo out of S. Augustin: who is herein also followed by Gratian, in the second part of the Decrees, caus. 13. quaest. 2. cap. 29. where the Gloss layeth down his resolution thus. sGratian moveth a certain incident question; whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living? and he answereth, that they do not: and this he proveth by the authority of Isaiah. (uz. Isaiah. 63.16.)
Secondly, in the former times kit was a great question, whether at all, or how farre, or after what maner the spirits ⟨p. 402⟩of the dead did know the things that concerned us here: and consequently, whether they pray for us onely lin generall, and for the particulars God answereth us according to our severall necessities, where, when, and after what maner he pleaseth. Anselmus Laudunensis in his interlineall Glosse upon that text; Abraham is ignorant of us, and Israel knoweth us not: (Esai. 63.16) noteth, that mAugustine sayeth, that the dead, even the Saints doe not know what the living doe, no not their owne sonnes. And indeed S. Augustine in his booke of the Care for the dead, maketh this inference upon that place of Scripture. nIf such great Patriarches as these were ignorant, what was done toward the people that descended from them, unto whom (beleeving God) the people it selfe was promised to come from their stocke: how doe the dead interpose themselves in knowing and furthering the things and actes of the living? a•d af•erward draweth these conclusions from thence, which oHugo de Sancto Victore borrowing from him, hath inserted into his booke De Spiritu & animâ, cap. 29. pThe spirits of the dead be there, where they doe neyther see nor heare the things that are done or fall out unto men in this life. qYet have they such a care of the living, although they know not at all what they doe, as we have care of the dead, although ⟨p. 403⟩we know not what they doe. rThe dead indeed doe not know what is done here, while it is here in doing: but afterward they may heare it by such as die and goe unto them from hence; yet not altogether, but as much as is permitted to the one to tell and is fit for the other to heare. They may know it also by the Angels which be here present with us, and carry our soules unto them. They may know also by the revelation of Gods spirit such of the things done here as is necessary for them to know. Hitherto Hugo out of S. Augustin: who is herein also followed by Gratian, in the second part of the Decrees, caus. 13. quaest. 2. cap. 29. where the Glosse layeth downe his resolution thus.
kRespondeo magnā quidē esse quaestionē, nec in praesentia disserendam, quòd sit ope•is prolixioris; utrum, vel quatenus, vel quomodo ea quae circa nos aguntur noverint spiritus mortuorum. Augustin. in Psal. 108. •narrat. 1.Respondeo magnā quidē esse quaestionē, nec in praesentia disserendam, quòd sit ope•is prolixioris; utrum, vel quatenus, vel quomodo ea quae circa nos aguntur noverint spiritus mortuorum. Augustin. in Psal. 108. •narrat. 1.
lVid. eund. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16 suprá citatum, initio pag. 392. Sanctos in genere sollicitos esse pro Ecclesiâ, & orare posse, atque etiam reipsâ orare; fatentur Philippus in Apologiâ Confessionis Augustanae, articulo de invocatione Sanctorum, Brentius in Confessione Wirtembergensi, capite de invocatione Sanctorum, Kemnitius in tertiâ part Examinis Concilij Tridentini: Calvinus quoque lib•o t•rtio Institut. cap. 20. sect. 21. & 24. non repugnat huic sententiae. Bellarmin. de Missa, lib 2. cap. 8.Vid. eund. de Curâ pro mortuis, cap. 16 suprá citatum, initio pag. 392. Sanctos in genere sollicitos esse pro Ecclesiâ, & orare posse, atque etiam reipsâ orare; fatentur Philippus in Apologiâ Confessionis Augustanae, articulo de invocatione Sanctorum, Brentius in Confessione Wirtembergensi, capite de invocatione Sanctorum, Kemnitius in tertiâ parte Examinis Concilij Tridētini: Calvinus quoque lib•o t•rtio Institut. cap. 20. sect. 21. & 24. non repugnat huic sententiae. Bellarmin. de Missa, lib 2. cap. 8.
mAugustinus dicit: Quia mortui nesciunt, etiā sancti, quid agant vivi, etiā eorū filij Gloss. inte•lineal in Isaiah 63.Augustinus dicit: Quia mortui nesciunt, etiā sancti, quid agant vivi, etiā eorū filij Gloss. inte•lineal in
The like question is moved by the Master of the Sentences; tWhether the Saints do hear the prayers of suppliants, and the desire of petitioners do come unto their notice? and this answer is returned thereunto: It is NOT INCREDIBLE, that the souls of the Saints, which in the secret of Gods presence are joyed with the illustration of the true light, do in the contemplation thereof understand the things that are done abroad, ⟨p. 404⟩as much as appertaineth either to them for joy, or to us for help. For as to the Angels, so to the Saints likewise which stand before God, our petitions are made known in the Word of God which they contemplate. Upon which place of the Master, Scotus disputing, groweth to this conclusion. uI say, that it is not necessary in respect of the beatitude, that one in bliss should see our prayers: neither regularly or universally in the Word, because it is not such a thing as is a necessary sequel of beatitude; nor yet that they be revealed, because that neither such a revelation doth necessarily follow upon beatitude. Notwithstanding (for a reason which we shall hear of afterward) he saith, it is PROBABLE, that God doth specially reveal unto him that is in bliss such of our prayers as are offered unto him, or unto God in his name. The same conclusion doth Gabriel Biel make in his lectures upon the Canon of the Mass. for having showed, first, that xthe Saints in heaven, by their natural knowledge, which is the knowledge of things in their proper kind, know no prayers of ours that are here upon earth, neither mental nor vocal, by reason of the immoderate distance that is betwixt us and them. secondly, that yit is no part of their essential beatitude, that they should see our prayers or our other actions in the Word; and thirdly, that zit is not altogether certain, whether it do appertain to their accidental beatitude, to see our prayers: he thus at length ⟨p. 405⟩concludeth. aIt is therefore said PROBABLY, that although it do not follow necessarily upon the Saints beatitude, that they should hear our prayers of congruity: yet that God doth reveal all things which are offered unto them by men; whether in magnifying and praising them, or in praying unto them and imploring their help. Cardinal Bellarmine supposeth, that bif the Saints should have need thus of a new revelation, the Church would not so boldly say unto all the Saints;
The like question is moved by the Master of the Sentences; tWhether the Saints doe heare the prayers of suppliants, and the desire of petitioners doe come unto their notice? and this answere is returned thereunto: It is NOT INCREDIBLE, that the soules of the Saints, which in the secret of Gods presence are joyed with the illustration of the true light, doe in the contemplation thereof understand the things that are done abroad, ⟨p. 404⟩as much as appertayneth eyther to them for joy, or to us for helpe. For as to the Angels, so to the Saints likewise which stand before God, our petitions are made knowne in the Word of God which they contemplate. Upon which place of the Master, Scotus disputing, groweth to this conclusion. uI say, that it is not necessary in respect of the beatitude, that one in blisse should see our prayers: neyther regularly or universally in the Word, because it is not such a thing as is a necessarie sequele of beatitude; nor yet that they be revealed, because that neyther such a revelation doth necessarily follow upon beatitude. Notwithstanding (for a reason which we shall heare of afterward) hee saith, it is PROBABLE, that God doth specially •eveale unto him that is in blisse such of our prayers as are offered unto him, or unto God in his name. The same conclusion doth Gabriel Biel make in his lectures upon the Canon of the Masse. for having shewed, first, that xthe Saints in heaven, by their naturall knowledge, which is the knowledge of things in their proper kinde, know no prayers of ours that are here upon earth, neyther mentall nor vocall, by reason of the immoderate distance that is betwixt us and them. secondly, that yit is no part of their essentiall beatitude, that they should see our prayers or our other actions in the Word; and thirdly, that zit is not altogether certayne, whether it doe appertaine to their accidentall beatitude, to see our prayers: he thus at length ⟨p. 405⟩concludeth. aIt is therefore sayd PROBABLY, that although it do not follow necessarily upon the Saints beatitude, that they should heare our prayers of congruitie: yet that God doth reveale all things which are offered unto them by men; whether in magnifying and praysing them, or in praying unto them and imploring their helpe. Cardinall Bellarmine supposeth, that
tSed fortè quaeris; Nunquid preces supplicantium Sancti audiunt, & vota postulantium in eorum notitiam perveniunt? Non est ineredibile, animas Sanctorum, quae in abscondito faciei Dei veri luminis illustration laetantur, in ipsius contemplatione ea quae foris aguntur intelligere, quantum vel illis ad gaudium, vel nobis ad auxiliū pertinet. Sicut enim Angelis, ita & Sanctis qui Deo assistunt, petitiones nostrae innotescunt in Verbo Dei quod contemplantur. Petr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. distinct, 45.Sed fortè quaeris; Nunquid preces supplicantium Sancti audiunt, & vota postulantium in eorum notitiam perveniunt? Non est ineredibile, animas Sanctorum, quae in abscondito faciei Dei veri luminis illustratione laetantur, in ipsius contemplatione ea quae foris aguntur intelligere, quantum vel illis ad gaudium, vel nobis ad auxiliū pertinet. Sicut enim Angelis, ita & Sanctis qui Deo assistunt, petitiones nostrae innotescunt in Verbo Dei quod contemplantur. Petr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. distinct, 45.
uDico, quòd non est necesse ex ratione beatitudinis, quòd beatus videat orationes nostras: neque regulariter sive universaliter in Verbo, quia non est aliquid quasi necessaria sequela beatudinis; neque quòd revelentur, quia neque talis revelatio nec•ssariò sequitur beatitudinem. etc. Tamē probabile est, quòd Deus beatis revelat de orationibus sibi, vel •eo in nomine ejus oblatis. Jo. Scotus, in 4. dist 45. quaest. 4.Dico, quòd non est necesse ex ratione beatitudinis, quòd beatus videat orationes nostras: neque regulariter sive universaliter in Verbo, quia non est aliquid quasi necessaria sequela beatudinis; neque quòd revelentur, quia neque talis revelatio nec•ssariò sequitur beatitudinem. etc. Tamē probabile est, quòd Deus beatis revelat de orationibus sibi, vel •eo in nomine ejus oblatis. Io. Scotus, in 4. dist 45. quaest. 4.
xDicendum, quòd Sancti in patriâ qui de facto in coelis sunt, naturali cognitione putà vespertinâ, quae est cognitio rerum in proprio genere, nullas orations nostrum in terrâ consistentium, neque mentales n•que vocales cognoscunt propter immoderatam distantiam inter nos & ipsos Gabr. Biel, in Canon Miss. sect 31.Dicendum, quòd Sancti in patriâ qui de facto in coelis sunt, naturali cognitione putà vespertinâ, quae est cognitio rerum in proprio genere, nullas orationes nostrum in terrâ consistentium, neque mentales nque vocales cognoscunt propter immoderatam distantiam inter nos & ipsos Gabr. Biel, in Canon Miss. ect 31.
Pray for us: but would sometimes entreat of God, that he would reveal our prayers unto them. Yet because cit seemeth unto him superfluous, to desire ordinarily of them that they should pray for us, which cannot ordinarily understand what we do in particular, but know only in general that we are exposed to many dangers: he resolveth, that dalthough there may be some doubt, in what manner the Saints may know things that be absent, and which are sometime delivered by the affection of the heart alone; yet it is certain that they do know them. And you must enote, saith another Jesuit, that this is to be held for a point of faith, that the Saints do know the prayers which we pour unto them. So that to make good the Popish manner of praying unto Saints, that which at the first was but probable and problematical, must now be held to be de fide, and an undoubted axiom of Divinity.
Pray for us: but would sometimes intreat of God, that he would reveale our prayers unto them. Yet because cit seemeth unto him superfluous, to desire ordinarily of them that they shoul• pray for us, which cannot ordinarily unde•stand what wee doe in particular, but know onely in generall that we are exposed to many dangers: he resolveth, that dalthough there may be some doubt, in what maner the Saints may know things that be absent, and which are somtime delivered by the affection of the heart alone; yet it is certain that they doe know them. And you must enote, saith another Iesuite, that this is to be held for a point of faith, that the Saints doe know the prayers which we poure unto them. So that to make good the Popish maner of praying unto Saints, that which at the first was but probab•e and problematicall, must now be held to be de fide, and an undoubted axiome of Divinitie.
cSuperfluum videtur ab eis (qui sunt in Purgatorio) ordinarié petere, ut pro nobis orent: quia non possunt ordinarié cognoscere quid agamus in particulari, sed solùm in genere sciunt nos in multis periculis versari Id de Purgator. lib. 2. cap. 15.
dEtsi dubitatio esse possit, quemadmodum cognoscant absentia, & quae solo cordis affectu interdum proferuntur; tamen certum est eos cognoscere Id de Eccles. triumph. lib. ca•. •0.
eNotandum est, quod est de fide, beatos cognoscere orationes quas ad eos fundimus. Peasant. in 1. part. Thom. quaest. 1•.Notandum est, quod est de fide, beatos cognoscere orationes quas ad eos fundimus. Pesa•t. in 1. part. Thom. quaest. 1•.
Thirdly, in the Popish Invocation, formal and absolute prayers are tendered to the Saints: but the compellations of them used at first, were commonly either ⟨p. 406⟩wishes only, or requests of the same nature with those which are in this kind usually made unto the living; where the requester is oftentimes superior to him whose prayers he desireth (which standeth not well with the condition of fPrayer properly so called) and they that are requested, be evermore accounted in the number of those that pray for us, but not of those that are prayed unto by us. Of this you may hear, if you please, what one of the more moderate Romanists writeth. gIf it were lawful for the Prophet to call to the Angels and the whole host of heaven, and to exhort them that they would praise God, which notwithstanding they do continually without any one admonishing them, whereby nothing else but a certain abundance of desire of the amplifying of Gods glory is declared: why may it not be lawful also, out of a certain abundance of godly desire to call upon those blessed spirits which by the society of the same body are conjoined with us; and to exhort them, that they should do that, which we believe they otherwise do of themselves? That to say; All ye Saints, pray unto God for me: should import as much, as if it were said; Would to God, that all the Saints did pray unto God for me! I wish earnestly, that all the Saints should pray to God for me! Thus writeth Cassander, in his notes upon the ancient Ecclesiastical Hymns, published by him in the year 1556. who being challenged for this by some others of that side, added this further to give them ⟨p. 407⟩better satisfaction. hWhen I did see that it was not necessary, that we should hold that the Saints do understand our prayers; I thought it was sufficient to put back the calumnies of some, if we should say that these interpellations might be expounded by way of wishing or desiring: which hath less absurdity in it, and is agreeable to the examples of the holy Scriptures. But if any man would have such compellations as these to be taken also for an intimation of the desire, and a direct speaking unto them; I do not gainsay it. Notwithstanding I would think that a tacit condition ought to be understood in such an intimation: such as Gregory Nazianzen doth express in the funeral oration of his sister Gorgonia, when he saith.
Thirdly, in the Popish Invocation, formall and absolute prayers are tendred to the Saints: but the compellations of them used at first, were commonly eyther ⟨p. 406⟩wishes onely, or requests of the same nature with those which are in this kinde usually made unto the living; where the requester is oftentimes superior to him whose prayers he desireth (which standeth not well with the condition of fPrayer properly so called) and they that are requested, be evermore accounted in the number of those that pray for us, but not of those that are prayed unto by us. Of this you may heare, if you please, what one of the more moderate Romanists writeth. gIf it were lawfull for the Prophet to call to the Angels and the whole hoaste of heaven, and to exhort them that they would prayse God, which notwithstanding they doe continually without any one admonishing them, whereby nothing else but a certaine abundance of desire of the amplifying of Gods glory is declared: why may it not be lawfull also, out of a certaine abundance of godly desire to call upon those blessed spirits which by the societie of the same body are conjoyned with us; and to exhort them, that they should doe that, which we beleeve they otherwife doe of themselves? That to say; All ye Saints, pray unto God for me: should import as much, as if it were said; Would to God, that all the Saints did pray unto God for me! I wish earnestly, that all the Saints should pray to God for me! Thus writeth Cassander, in his notes upon the ancient Ecclesiasticall Hymnes, published by him in the yeare 1556. who being challenged for this by some others of that side, added this further to give them ⟨p. 407⟩better satisfaction. hWhen I did see that it was not necessary, that we should hold that the Saints doe understand our prayers; I thought it was sufficient to put backe the calumnies of some, if we should say that these interpellations might be expounded by way of wishing or desiring: which hath lesse absurditie in it, and is agreeable to the examples of the holy Scriptures. But if any man would have such compellations as these to be taken also for an intimation of the desire, and a direct speaking unto them; I doe not gainesay it. Notwithstanding I would thinke that a tacite condition ought to be understood in such an intimation: such as Gregory Nazianzen doth expresse in the funerall oration of his sister Gorgonia, when he saith.
fEst enim oratio actus quidam rationis, quo unus alteri supplicat, inferior videlicèt superiori. Bella•min. de bonis operib. in particularly, lib. 1. cap. 7.Est enim oratio actus quidam rationis, quo unus alteri supplicat, inferior videlicèt superiori. Bella•min. de bonis operib. in particulari, lib. 1. cap. 7.
gSi Prophetae licuit appellare Angelos, & universum coelestem exercitum, eosque hortari ut Deū laudent, quod tamen nullo etiam monente assidué faciunt; quo sané nihil aliud quàm abundantia quaedam studij divinae gloriae amplificandae declaratur: cur etiam non liceat beatos illos spiritus ejusdem corporis societate nobiscum conjunctos, ex quâdam pij desiderij redundantiâ compellare, atque exhortari, uti id faciant, quod eos ultro facere credimus? ut perinde valeat; Omnes Sancti orate Deum pro me: ac si dicatur. Utinam omnes Sancti Deum orent pro me quàm velim ut omnes Sancti Deum orent pro me Georg. Cassand. Schol. in Hymn. Ecclesiastic. Op•rum pag. 242.Si Prophetae licuit appellare Angelos, & universum coelestem exercitum, eosque hortari ut Deū laudent, quod tamen nullo etiam monente assidué faciunt; quo sané nihil aliud quàm abundantia quaedam studij divinae gloriae amplificandae declaratur: cur etiam non liceat beatos illos spiritus ejusdem corporis societate nobiscum conjunctos, ex quâdam pij desiderij redundantiâ compellare, atque exhortari, uti id faciant, quod eos ultro facere credimus? ut perinde valeat; Omnes Sancti orate Deum pro me: ac si dicatur. Vtinam omnes Sancti Deum orent pro me quàm velim ut omnes Sancti Deum orent pro me Georg. Cassand. Schol. in Hymn. Ecclesiastic. Op•rum pag. 242.
hCùm viderē non necessarium, ut statuamus Sanctos intelligere nostras preces; credebam ad calumnias nonnullorum repellendas satis esse si dicamus per modū desiderij eas inter pellationes explicari posse: quod minus habet absurditatis, & divinarum literarum exemplis congruit. Si quis autem hujusmodi compellationes pro intimatione quoque desiderij, & directâ (ut ita loquamur) alloquutione haberi velit; non repugno. Crediderim tamen hujusmodi intimationi tacitam conditionem subesse debere; qualem Gregorius Nazianzenus in oratione funebri sororis Gorgoniae exprimit, cùm ait. Proinde si nostri sermones vel parumper tibi curae sint, honorque talis sanctis á D•o debetur animabus, ut talia resciscant; suscipe & tu sermonem nostrum. Id. epist. 19. ad Jo. Molinaeum. pag. 1109.
If thou hast any care at all of our speeches, and holy souls receive this honour from God that they have notice of such things as these; do thou accept this Oration of ours.
If thou hast any care at all of our speeches, and holy soules receive this honour from God that they have notice of such things as these; doe thou accept this Oration of ours.
Yea in the very darkest times of the Papacy there wanted not some, who for certain reasons (recited by Guilielmus Altissi dorensis and Gabriel Biel) resolved that neither the Saints do pray for us, neither are we to pray unto them. iWith these and such like reasons, saith Biel, were the heretics deceived: and some Christians in our time are now deceived. kFor these and the like reasons, saith Altissiodorensis, MANY do say, that neither we pray unto the Saints, nor they pray for us, but improperly: in respect we pray unto God, that the ⟨p. 408⟩merits of the Saints may help us. according to that: Adjuvent nos eorum merita, &c. where if any poison do remain hidden under the name of merits, (of which we are to consider in his proper place:) the Breviary of the Praemonstratersian Order ministereth unto us this antidote against it.
lAdjuvent nos eorum merita,
Quos propria impediunt scelera?
Excuset eorum intercessio,
Quos propria accusat actio?
At tu qui eis tribuisti
Coelestis palmam triumphi,
Nobis veniam non deneges peccati.
Can their merits help us, whom their own sins hinder? Can their intercession excuse us, whose own action doth accuse themselves? But thou, who hast bestowed upon them the palm of the heavenly triumph, deny not unto us the pardon of our sin. And this many serve to make a.
Yea in the very darkest times of the Papacie there wanted not some, who for certaine reasons (recited by Guilielmus Altissi dorensis and Gabriel Biel) resolved that neyther the Saints doe pray for us, neyther are we to pray unto them. iWith these and such like reasons, saith Biel, were the heretickes deceaved: and some Christians in our time are now deceaved. kFor these and the like reasons, saith Altissiodorensis, MANY doe say, that neyther we pray unto the Saints, nor they pray for us, but improperly: in respect we pray unto God, that the ⟨p. 408⟩merits of the Saints may helpe us. according to that: Adjuvent nos eorum merita, &c. where if any poyson doe remayne hidden under the name of merits, (of which we are to consider in his proper place:) the Breviarie of the Praemonstratersian Order ministreth unto us this antidote against it.
lAdjuvent nos eorum merita,
Quos propria impediunt scelera?
Excuset eorum intercessio,
Quos propria accusat actio?
At tu qui eis tribuisti
Coelestis palmam triumphi,
Nobis veniam non deneges peccati.
Can their merits helpe us, whom their owne sinnes hinder? Can their intercession excuse us, whose owne action doth accuse themselves? But thou, who hast bestowed upon them the palme of the heavenly triumph, deny not unto us the pardon of our sinne. And this many serve to make a.
iHis & similibus rationibus decepti sunt dicti hae•etici. Decipiuntur & nunc nonnulli nostro tempore Christiani. Gabr. Biel, in Canon. Miss. lect. 30.His & similibus rationibus decepti sunt dicti hae•etici. Decipiuntur & nunc nonnulli nostro tēpore Christiani. Gabr. Biel, in Canon. Miss. lect. 30.
kPropter istas rationes & consimiles dicunt multi, quòd nec nos oramus Sanctos, nec ipsi orant pro nobis, nisi improprié: ideò sc. quia oramus Deum ut Sanctorum merita nos juvent unde: Adjuvent nos eorum merita. etc. Guillerm. Altissiodor. in Sum. part. 4 lib. 3. tract. 7. cap. de Orat. quaest. 6.Propter istas rationes & consimiles dicunt multi, quòd nec nos oramus Sanctos, nec ipsi orant pro nobis, nisi improprié: ideò sc. quia oramus Deum ut Sanctorum merita nos juvēt unde: Adjuvent nos eorum merita. etc. Guillerm. Altissiodor. in Summ. part. 4 lib. 3. tract. 7. cap. de Orat. quaest. 6.
lBreviar Praemo. str•teus. in Ommum Sanctorum officio. Vid. Poëmata De corr•pto Ecclesiae statu, edit. Basil. an. 155• pag. 28.29. & Catalogue. test. veritat. edit. ibid. an. 1562. pag. 390.Breviar Praemo. str•teus. in Ommum Sanctorum officio. Vid. Poëmata De corr•pto Ecclesiae statu, edit. Basil. an. 155• pag. 28.29. & Catalog. test. veritat. edit. ibid. an. 1562. pag. 390.
Fourth difference betwixt the Popish prayers and the Interpellations used in the ancient time. for by the doctrine and practise of the Church of Rome, the Saints in heaven are not only made joint petitioners with us (as the Saints are upon earth) but also our Attorneys and Advocates: who carry the suit for us, not by the pleading of Christs merits alone, but by bringing in their own merits likewise; upon the consideration of the dignity or condignitie whereof it is believed, that God yieldeth to the motions they make unto him in our behalf. mWe pray unto the Saints (saith the Master of the Sentences) that they may intercede ⟨p. 409⟩for us, that is to say, that their merits may help us, and that they may will our good: for they willing it God doth will it, and so it will be effected. nWe ought to entreat the Apostles and all the Saints (saith Hugo Pratensis) in all our necessities: because they are our advocates, and the means betwixt us and God, by whom God hath ordained to bestow all things upon us. oBecause it is a thing fitting (saith Scotus) that he that is in bliss should be a coadjutor of God in procuring the salvation of the elect, according to such manner as this may agree unto him; and to this it is requisite, that our prayers which are offered unto him should specially be revealed unto him, because they lean specially upon the merits of him as of a mediator bringing us to the salvation which is sought for: therefore it is probable that God doth specially reveal unto him that is in bliss such of our prayers as are offered unto him, or unto God in his name. But this is an open derogation to the high prerogative of our Saviours meritorious Intercession, and a manifest encroachment upon the great office of Mediation, which the most religious and learned among those Fathers, who desired to be recommended unto the prayers of the Saints, were so careful to preserve entire unto him. pFor what is so proper to Christ, saith S. Ambrose, as to stand by God the Father for an advocate of the people? qHe is the Priest, saith S. Augustin, who being now entered within the veil, ALONE there of them that have been partakers of flesh, doth make intercession for us. In figure of which thing, in that first ⟨p. 410⟩people and in that first Temple the Priest only did enter into the Holy of holies, and all the people stood without. And therefore where S. John sayeth;
Fourth difference betwixt the Popish prayers and the Interpellations used in the ancient time. for by the doctrine and practise of the Church of Rome, the Saints in heaven are not only made joint petitioners with us (as the Saints are upon earth) but also our Atturneyes and Advocates: who carry the suit for us, not by the pleading of Christs merits alone, but by bringing in their owne merits likewise; upon the consideration of the dignitie or condignitie whereof it is beleeved, that God yeeldeth to the motions they make unto him in our behalfe. mWee pray unto the Saints (saith the Master of the Sentences) that they may intercede ⟨p. 409⟩for us, that is to say, that their merits may helpe us, and that they may will our good: for they willing it God doth will it, and so it will be effected. nWe ought to intreat the Apostles and all the Saints (saith Hugo Pratensis) in all our necessities: because they are our advocates, and the meanes betwixt us and God, by whom God hath ordayned to bestow all things upon us. oBecause it is a thing fitting (saith Scotus) that he that is in blisse should be a coadjutor of God in procuring the salvation of the elect, according to such maner as this may agree unto him; and to this it is requisite, that our prayers which are offered unto him should specially be revealed unto him, because they leane specially upon the merits of him as of a mediator bringing us to the salvation which is sought for: therefore it is probable that God doth specially reveale unto him that is in blisse such of our prayers as are offered unto him, or unto God in his name. But this is an open derogation to the high prerogative of our Saviours meritorious Intercession, and a manifest incroachment upon the great office of Mediation, which the most religious and learned among those Fathers, who desired to be recommended unto the prayers of the Saints, were so carefull to preserve entire unto him. pFor what is so proper to Christ, saith S. Ambrose, as to stand by God the Father for an advocate of the people? qHe is the Priest, saith S. Augustin, who being now entred within the vayle, ALONE there of them that have beene partakers of flesh, doth make intercession for us. In figure of which thing, in that first ⟨p. 410⟩
mOramus Sanctos, ut intercedant pro nobis, id est, ut merita eo•um nobis suffragentur, & ut ipsi velint bonum nostrum: quia eis volentibus Deus vult, & ita fiet. Petr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. distinct. 45. & Jacobus de Vitriaco, in Litaniâ maiori.Oramus Sanctos, ut intercedant pro nobis, id est, ut merita eo•um nobis suffragentur, & ut ipsi velint bonum nostrum: quia eis volentibus Deus vult, & ita fiet. Petr. Lombard. Sentent. lib. 4. distinct. 45. & Iacobus de Vitriaco, in Litaniâ maiori.
nRogare debemus Apostolos & omnes Sanctos in omni necessitate nostrâ: quia ipsi sunt advocati nostri, & medij inter nos & Deum, per quos Deus ordinavit nobis omnia largiri. Hug. Prate•s. sermon. 35.
oQui congruum est beatum esse coadjutorem Dei in procurando salutem electi, eo modo quo hoc sibi potest cō petere; & ad iflud requiritur sibi revela•i orationes nostras specialiter, quae sibi offeruntur, quia illae specialiter innituntur meritis ejus tanquam mediatoris perducentis ad salutem, quae petitur: ideò probabile est, quòd Deus beatis revelat de orationibus sibi, vel Deo in nomine ejus oblatis. Jo. Scot. in 4. Sent. d•st. 45. quaest. 4.Qui congruum est beatum esse coadjutorem Dei in procurando salutem electi, eo modo quo hoc sibi potest cō petere; & ad iflud requiritur sibi revela•i orationes nostras specialiter, quae sibi offeruntur, quia illae specialiter innituntur meritis ejus tanquam mediatoris perducentis ad salutem, quae petitur: ideò probabile est, quòd Deus beatis revelat de orationibus sibi, vel Deo in nomine ejus oblatis. Io. Scot. in 4. Sent. d•st. 45. quaest. 4.
pQuid enim tam proprium Christi, quàm advocatum apud Deum patrem adstare populorum? Ambros. in Psalm. 39.
qIpse Sacerdos est, qui nunc ingressus in interiora veli, solus ibi ex his qui carnem gestaverunt interpellat pro nobis. In cujus rei figurâ in illo primo populo, & in illo primo templo unus sacerdos intiabat in sancta sanctorum, populus omnis foras stabat. August. in Psam. 64.
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the Marty• (saith he) is such a lover of learning, and taketh such a delight in these oratorious p•ayses; that I will tell somewhat of those things that were done to my selfe and for my selfe: vvhich the Martyr, who did it, doth know to have beene done, and that I lye not. Then he telleth, how having prepar•d an oration for her anniversarie festivitie, the day before it should be pronounced, he was taken with such an extreame paine in his eare, that the auditorie was like to be quite disappointed:
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almightie God alone doth behold the hidden things: saith S. Hierome, alledging for proofe of this the text,
. Thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men. But now in the Church of Rome mentall prayers are pre•ented to the Saints, as well as vocall:
Gratian moveth a certaine incident question; whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living? and he answereth, that they doe not: and this he proveth by the authority of Esai. (vz. Esai. 63.16.)
Esai 63
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nSi tanti Patriarchae quid erga populum ex his procreatū ageretur, ignoraverunt, quibus Deo credentibus populus ipse de illorū stirpe promissus est: quo modo mortui vivorum rebus atque actibus cognoscendis adjuvandisque miscentur? Augustin. de Curâ pro mo•tuis, cap. 13.Si tanti Patriarchae quid erga populum ex his procreatū ageretur, ignoraverunt, quibus Deo credentibus populus ipse de illorū stirpe promissus est: quo modo mortui vivorum rebus atque actibus cognoscendis adjuvandisque miscentur? Augustin. de Curâ pro mo•tuis, cap. 13.
oLib. de Spiritu & Animâ, tom. 3. operum August qui idē est cū libro 2. de Animâ, inter opera Hugonis Victorint.Lib. de Spiritu & Animâ, tom. 3. operum August qui idē est cū libro 2. de Animâ, inter opera Hugonis Victorint.
pIbi sunt spiritus defunctorum, ubi non vident quaecunque aguntur, aut eveniunt in istâ vitâ hominibus. •ugustin. de Curâ •ro mortuis, cap. 13.
qIta illi (Diviti) fuit cura de vivis, quanvis quid agerent, omnino nesciret: quemadmodum est nobis cura de mortuis, quanvis quid agant, omnino utique nesciamus. Ibid. cap. 14.
rProínde fatendum est, nescire quidem mortuos quid hîc agatur, sed dum hîc agitur; posteà veró audire ab eis, qui hinc ad eos moriendo p•rgunt. Non quidē omnia, sed quae sinuntur indicare, qui sinuntur etiam ista meminisse; & quae illos, quibus haec indicant, oportet audire. Possunt & ab Angelis, qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt, audire aliquid mortui, quod unumquenque illo•um audire debere judicat cui cuncta subjecta sunt. etc. Possunt etiam spiritus mortuorum aliqua quae hîc aguntur, quae necessarium est eos nosse, & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse, non solùm praeterita vel praesentia, verumetiam futura spiritu Dei revelante cognoscere. Ibid. cap. 15.Proínde fatendum est, nescire quidem mortuos quid hîc agatur, sed dum hîc agitur; posteà veró audire ab eis, qui hinc ad eos moriendo p•rgunt. Non quidē omnia, sed quae sinuntur indicare, qui sinuntur etiam ista meminisse; & quae illos, quibus haec indicant, oportet audire. Possunt & ab Angelis, qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt, audire aliquid mortui, quod unumquenque illo•um audire debere judicat cui cuncta subjecta sunt. etc. Possunt etiam spiritus mortuorum aliqua quae hîc aguntur, quae necessarium est eos nosse, & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse, non solùm praeterita vel praesentia, verumetiam futura spiritu Dei revelante cognoscere. Ibid. cap. 15.
sFacit Grat. quamdam incidentem quaestionem; utrùm defuncti sciunt quae in mundo geruntur á viris? & respondet, quòd non: & hoc probat auctoritate Isaiae. Gloss. in 13. q. 2. De mortuis.
if the Saints should have neede thus of a new revelation, the Church would not so boldly say unto all the Saints;
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yNon est de ratione beatitudinis essentialis; ut nostras orationes, aut alia facta nostra, matutinâ cognitione videant in verbo. Ibid.
zUtrùm autem videre nostias orationes pertineat ad eorum b•atitudinem accidentalem; non per omnia certum est. I•id.Vtrùm autem videre nostias orationes pertineat ad eorum b•atitudinem accidentalem; non per omnia certum est. I•id.
aUnde probabilities dicitur, quòd licèt non necessariò sequitur ad s•nctorum beatitudinem, ut orationes nostras audiant de co•gruo: tamē Deu• eis revelat omnia quae ipsis ab h•minib•s off•runtur, si•e ipsos magnificando & la•dando, sive eos orando & auxili• implorando Ibid.Vnde probabili•e• dicitur, quòd licèt non necessariò sequitur ad s•nctorum beatitudinem, ut orationes nostras audiāt de co•gruo: tamē Deu• eis revelat omnia quae ipsis ab h•minib•s off•runtur, si•e ipsos magnificando & la•dando, sive eos orando & auxili• implorando Ibid.
bS• indigerent Sancti novâ revelatione, Ecclesia non diceret ita audacter omnibus Sanctis; Orate •ro nobu: sed peteret aliquando á Deo, ut & rev•laret preces nostras. Bellarm. de Eccles. triumph. lib. 1. cap 20.
Cùm viderē non necessarium, ut statuamus Sanctos intelligere nostras preces; credebam ad calumnias nonnullorum repellendas satis esse si dicamus per modū desiderij eas inter pellationes explicari posse: quod minus habet absurditatis, & divinarum literarum exemplis congruit. Si quis autem hujusmodi compellationes pro intimatione quoque desiderij, & directâ (ut ita loquamur) alloquutione haberi velit; non repugno. Crediderim tamen hujusmodi intimationi tacitam conditionem subesse debere; qualem Gregorius Nazianzenus in oratione funebri sororis Gorgoniae exprimit, cùm ait. Proinde si nostri sermones vel parumper tibi curae sint, honorque talis sanctis á D•o debetur animabus, ut talia resciscant; suscipe & tu sermonem nostrum. Id. epist. 19. ad Io. Molinaeum. pag. 1109.
people and in that first Temple the Priest onely did enter into the Holy of holyes, and all the people stood without. And therefore where S. Iohn saieth;
