Theophilus. There is yet an other point. If they will say that those which are in Purgatory, can no more merit, neither for themselves, nor for others, they cannot say the like (without speaking against the doctrine, which they have given us) of the saints which are in Paradise. For they do affirm, that they pray unto God for us, & that they are our intercessors & advocates towards 1him, and that in seeing God, which seeth all things, they do see all as in a Mirror or looking glass. If they do pray for us which are yet in this life, because of the great 2love and charity that they have towards us, wherefore do they not also willingly pray for their brethren detained and kept in the fire of Purgatory? For they should have a great deal more reason to do that, if they had any care or charge of men. And that for many causes.
⟨p. 278⟩First that the estate and condition of the one and the other agreeth more, then it doth of the dead to the living. Secondly, because that they themselves can better perceive of their estate and condition, and whether they be more in pain, or whether they be out of it, then we. For there is more agreeing of the spirits to the spirits, which are separated from the body, then to us which are yet wrapped in them. And which is more, if that the souls of 3Purgatory do know, either by divine revelation, or by the report of Angels, or of the souls of them which daily do depart out of this world, that which is done upon earth, as your Doctors do testify and affirm, can they not aswell report and tell unto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory? It is not like to be true, i• there be any, but that they are better advertised then we, and that many ways. And if they be advertised, I cannot believe, that they are so inhumane and ungentle, if they do pray for the living, but that they do pray a great deal more for those poor souls: sith that they are in so grievous torments, without any comparison that may be in the world. I do speak always according to your doctrine. And this is the third reason, by the which I will conclude against the Priests, either that the Saints do not pray for the living: or ye it is in like manner necessary and a great deal more needful that they pray for the dead. Now if they pray for the dead, I am of an opinion, that we leave unto them all the charge.
Theophilus. There is yet an other poynt. If they will say that those which are in Purgatory, can no more merite, neyther for themselues, nor for others, they cannot say the lyke (without speaking agaynst the doctrine, which they haue giuen vs) of ye saints which are in Paradise. For they doe affirme, that they pray vnto God for vs, & that they are our intercessors & aduocates towards 1him, and that in séeing God, which séeth all things, they doe see all as in a Mirrour or looking glasse. If they doe pray for vs which are yet in this lyfe, bicause of the great 2loue and charitie that they haue towards vs, wherefore do they not also willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory? For they shoulde haue a greate deale more reason to doe that, if they had anye care or charge of menne. And that for manye causes.
⟨p. 278⟩First that the estate and condition of the one and the other agréeth more, then it doth of the dead to the lyuing. Secondly, bicause that they themselues can better perceiue of their estate and condition, and whether they bée more in payne, or whethether they be out of it, then we. For there is more agréeing of the spirits to the spirits, which are seperated from the bodye, then to vs which are yet wrapped in them. And which is more, if yt the soules of 3Purgatory doe know, eyther by diuine reuelation, or by the report of Angells, or of ye soules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde, that which is done vppon earth, as your Doctors doe testifie and affirme, can they not aswell reporte and tell vnto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory? It is not lyke to be true, i• there bée any, but that they are better aduertised then we, and that many wayes. And if they be aduertised, I cannot beléeue, that they are so inhumayne and vngentle, if they doe pray for the lyuing, but that they doe pray a great deale more for those poore soules: sith that they are in so gréeuous torments, without any comparison that may be in the world. I doe speake alwayes according to your doctrine. And this is the thirde reason, by the which I will conclude agaynst the Priestes, eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing: or ye it is in lyke manner necessary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead. Now if they pray for the dead, I am of an opinion, that we leaue vnto thē al the charge.
- 1The intercession of the Saints for us.The intercessiō of the Saints for vs.
- 2Grego. Rat. […] off. ••. 7 Rub. de off. Mort.Grego. Rat. 〈…〉 off. ••. 7 Rub. de off. Mort.
- 3Aug. li. de •ur. pro mor. Again. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra•. d•••. off. R•b. de off. mor.Aug. li. de •ur. pro mor. Agen. 13. q. 2 Fatendum Ra•. d•••. off. R•b. de off. mor.
