An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
SO soon as the Adversary heard the Church named, he waxed wan: yet notwithstanding he hath devised one thing, which I would wish you to note well; that thereby you may perceive, the ruin and hard shifts of falsehood. The enemy perceived that both in thea old and newb Testament, there is every where* honourable mention made of the Church, and that it is called a holy city, a fruitful vineyard, an high hill, a direct path, the only dove, the kingdom of heaven, the spouse and body of Christ, the pillar of truth, the multitude unto which the holy Ghost being promised, poureth all things needful to salvation. The congregation, against all which the gates of hell shall never so prevail, that they shall utterly extinguish the same. The congregation, which who so repugneth, though he confess Christ with his mouth, yet hath he no more to do with Christ, then hath a Publican and heathen man. He durst not say any thing against this openly, neither would he seem to gain-say that Church, whereof the Scriptures so often make mention. He kept craftily still, the name of the Church, but the thing it self by describing it, he* took quite away. For he hath portrayed the Church with such properties as do altogether hide it and make it, as if it were Plato his Idea;c unapt to be seen with the senses, but subject to the privy insight and speculation of a very few men, such only as by special inspiration, might in their imagination comprehend this airy body, and could likewise with a sharp eye discern
such as are members of this chosen society, what is become of truth? where is plain dealing? what Scriptures? what just judgments, what Fathers describe the Church in this sort?
Christ himself to the seven Churches which were in Asia. There are also diverse Epistles written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. John. and by others unto sundry Churches. In the Acts of the Apostles, we find mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged: what were those? were they known to God only, and to his Saints, or also to all sorts of Christians? But truly necessity is a deadly dart; pardon them:
SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named, hee waxed wanne: yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing, which I would wish you to note well; that thereby you may perceiue, the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood. The enemie perceiued that both in thea old and newb Testament, there is euery where* honorable mention made of the Church, and that it is called a holy citie, a fruitfull vineyard, an high hill, a direct path, the only doue, the kingdome of heauen, the spouse and bodie of Christ, the pillar of truth, the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised, powreth all things needfull to saluatiō. The congregation, against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile, that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same. The congregation, which who so repugneth, though he confesse Christ with his mouth, yet hath he no more to doe with Christ, then hath a Publican and heathen man. He durst not say any thing against this openly, neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church, whereof the Scriptures so often make mention. He kept craftily still, the name of the Church, but the thing it self by describing it, he* took quite away. For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it, as if it were Plato his Idea;c vnapt to be seene with the senses, but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men, such onely as by speciall inspiration, might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie, and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne ⟨p. 74⟩such as are members of this chosen societie, what is become of truth? where is plaine dealing? what Scriptures? what iust iudgmentes, what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte?* There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written byd Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia. There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. Iohn. and by others vnto sundry Churches. In the Actes of the Apostles, we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged: what were those? were they knowne to God onelie, and to his Saintes, or also to all sortes of Christians? But truly necessitie is a deadly dart; pardon them:
*The scripture maketh honourable mention of the Church, therefore the Roman Church is that true Church of Christ, of which the Scripture speaketh so •• ten.The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church, therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ, of which the Scripture speaketh so •• ten.
*This is false, for your definition maketh a true Church
for they that all these* 1500 years cannot spy out so much, as one time, one village, one house embrued with their doctrine, until that unhappye Monk by his incestuous marriage had deflowered a Nun, dedicated to God by former solemn vow: or until that quarrelling Switzerf had conspired against his country: or until that infamous runagateg had undertaken an usurped authority in Geneva. If they will have any Church at all, they must needs fetch the same out of blind corners, and challenge those for their ancestors, whom they neither knew themselves, neither any mortal man hath seen, except they brag of such forefathers, who were manifest heretics, as Aerius, Jovinianus, 5Heluidius, Vigillantius, the Image breakers, Berengarius, Waldensis, Lothardus, Wycliffe, Huss, of all which they have begged some pieces of their devilish doctrine. Marvel not though I have not feared these smothers, which if I shall once come to the clear light, I shall easily expel. For this is our speech together. Tell me, dost thou believe as the Church doth, which flourished these many hundred years past? Yea verily: let us therefore discourse of our countries and times; what Church dost thou believe? The congregation of the faithful, whose names are unknown, but it is apparent that many such have been: Is it apparent that ⟨p. 75⟩many such have been. To whom it is apparent? To God; who saith so? we that have received our doctrine from God himself. This is a loud lie, how may I believe it? If thou were fervent in faith, thou should know this as assuredly, as thou dost that thou art alive: Can you refrain laughing when you hear such foolish answers? All Christian people are commanded to cleave fast unto the Church, they are warned to take heed, lest they be slain with the spiritual sword: they are bid keep peace in the house of God: to commit their souls in trust unto this pillar of truth, there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church: and yet all that, have so many men, so many hundred years, been ignorant, where that Church is, or who belong unto it; will they in darkness still stand upon that point? that where or in what place soever the Church is, there are contained therein, only saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heaven:
for they that all these* 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much, as one time, one village, one house embrued with their doctrine, vntill that vnhappiee Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne, dedicated to God by former solemne vowe: or vntill that quarrelling Swizerf had conspired against his countrie: or vntill that infamous runagateg had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua. If they will haue any Church at all, they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners, and challenge those for their ancestors, whom they neither knew themselues, neither any mortall man hath seene, except they brage of such forefathers, who were manifest heretiques, as Aerius, Iouinianus, 5Heluidius, Vigillantius, the Image breakers, Berengarius, Waldensis, Lothardus, Wyclife, Husse, of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine. Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders, which if I shall once come to the cleare light, I shall easily expell. For this is our speech together. Tell me, dost thou beleeue as the Church doth, which flourished these many hundred yeeres past? Yea verilie: let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times; what Church dost thou beleeue? The congregation of the faithfull, whosenames are vnknowne, but it is apparant that many such haue been: Is it apparant that ⟨p. 75⟩manie such haue been. To whom it is apparant? To God; who saith so? we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe. This is a loude lie, how may I beleeue it? If thou were feruent in faith, thou should know this as assuredlie, as thou dost that thou art aliue: Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers? All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church, they are warned to take heed, lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword: they are bid keepe peace in the house of God: to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth, there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church: and yet all that, haue so many men, so manie hundred yeeres, been ignorant, where that Church is, or who belong vnto it; will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point? that where or in what place soeuer the Church is, there are contained therein, onely saints, and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen:
*This is false, our doctrine hath been derived from Christ himself unto us, by the faithful of all ages.This is false, our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs, by the faithfull of all ages.
whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate, he may think himself to be blameless in so doing: if he persuade himself that his said prelate hath committed any great offence, & by that means is excommunicated out of the Church. When I perceived that my adversaries invented such devises, and that they would not associate themselves to any Church, that heretofore hath been: and that when they were quite deprived of the thing it self, they would needs (though with much ado) keep still the bare name in possession, I solaced my self, with the hope I conceived of your ripe judgements, yea and I nothing doubted, but that as soon as you should find out even by their own confessions, these their juggling tricks, you would straightways, like plain honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares, framed of set purpose to work your overthrow.
whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate, he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing: if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence, & by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church. When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises, and that they would not associate themselues to any Church, that heretofore hath been: and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe, they would needes (though with much adoe) keepe still the bare name in possession, I solaced my selfe, with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements, yea and I nothing doubted, but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions, these their iugling trickes, you would straightwaies, like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares, framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow.
What is it, Campian, you further bring unto us? you propound unto us the nature of the Church, wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vain and childish oratory, neither worthy the hearing of our University men, or answerable to the opinion that is held of you. As touching the Church there are many questions and great controversies, and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head. For youra Catholics being tossed with the boisterous storms of other disputations, have been willing to takeb harbour in this haven of the Church. Here they dwell, here they place all their hopes of safety and victory, here they hide themselves, whensoever they are beaten out of the field. Therefore they fortify this sconce with all the skill they can, and strengthen it with munition on all sides; for which cause I marvel so much the more to find you, from whom so great things are expected, in this controversy to be so sleight and shallow; for you neither teach, nor conclude, nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours, which hath in it either forcible reason or proof. But it may be ⟨p. 77⟩this is but your first skirmish, you will haply afterwards deal with us hand to hand; yet I will trace you out in your own steps, that I may lay hold of you, if haply I may find you any where certain.
WHat is it, Campian, you further bring vnto vs? you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church, wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie, neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men, or answerable to the opinion that is held of you. As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies, and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head. For youra Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations, haue been willing to takeb harbor in this hauen of the Church. Here they dwell, here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie, heere they hide themselues, whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field. Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can, and strengthen it with munition on all sides; for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you, from whom so great things are expected, in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow; for you neither teach, nor conclude, nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours, which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe. But it may be ⟨p. 77⟩this is but your first skirmish, you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand; yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps, that I may lay hold of you, if happely I may find you any where certeine.
aDVR. Jt is well, that once you will acknowledge us to be Catholics. WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name, my meaning is to give it you no otherwise, thē usually the name of man is given to a dead and dry corps, where nothing is but skin and bone. He is a Catholic, not who followeth the popish Apostasy, but that professeth the doctrine of Christ.DVR. Jt is well, that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks. WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name, my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise, thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes, where nothing is but skinne and bone. He is a Catholike, not who followeth the popish Apostasie, but that professeth the doctrine of Christ.
bDVR. Is it so great a fault to fly into the haven of the Church? WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we tax you for, but that you cover all your errors by pretending the name of the Church. And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture, reprove and refel your heresies, you cry out you are the Church, and by that thinks to defend all things, though they be never so absurd.DVR. Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church? WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for, but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church. And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture, reproue and refell your heresies, you cry out you are the Church, and by that thinks to defend all things, though they be neuer so absurde.
So soon, say you, as the adversary heard the Church but named, he waxed wan: yea Campian, it made him blush, when he perceived so chaste & holy a matron, so impiously & insolently to be abused by you. The Church doth ever expel you, and deny all commerce with you. Yet you as very audacious & importunate wooers give not over your suite to compass her. Sure there was no cause why your adversary should wax so wan, unless he feared some evil measure from such cutthroats as you are. Yet notwithstanding, say you, he hath devised one thing, which I would wish you to note well. You will sure acquaint us with some great and unheard of matter; verily I much desire to know what is this one thing: yet I fear it will prove stark nothing; and for all your throes, you will bring forth but a mouse. As for the honourable praises of the Church, you mention, we both acknowledge those, and speak far greater things of it: but verily they agree not to your Church at all; for it is the Babylonish whore, a branch cut off from the true Vine, a den of thieves, a broad way leading to destruction, the kingdom of hell, the body of Antichrist, a sink of errors, a great mother of fornications, the Church of the wicked, out of which every Christian ought to depart, which Christ shall one day fearfully destroy, and give her the just recompense of all her sins. In vain then do you reckon up the praises of the Church, unless you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church, which you shall never be able to do, so long as Rome standeth. He would not, say you, seem to gain-say the Church, he kept craftily still the name of the Church, but the thing it self by his definition he took quite away. We verily, Campian, creverence and honour the Church, as our ⟨p. 78⟩mother, and in our definition we both retain the name, and clearly set out the nature of the thing it self. But you having lost the Church long since, do yet challenge the name and the vain title of the church. Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you; why I pray you? because we describe the Church by those properties which do altogether darken and hide it. We ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church, whose presence make a Church, and their absence mar or destroy a Church. But what are those properties which you affirm to darken and hide the Church?
So soone, say you, as the aduersarie heard the Church but named, he waxed wanne: yea Campian, it made him blush, when he perceiued so chast & holy a matron, so impiously & insolently to be abused by you. The Church doth euer expell you, and deny al commerce with you. Yet you as very audacious & importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her. Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne, vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are. Yet notwithstanding, say you, he hath deuised one thing, which I would wish you to note well. You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter; verily I much desire to know what is this one thing: yet I feare it will proue starke nothing; and for all your throes, you wil bring forth but a mouse. As for the honorable praises of the Church, you mention, we both acknowledge those, and speake far greater things of it: but verily they agree not to your Church at all; for it is the Babylonish whoore, a branch cut off from the true Vine, a denne of theeues, a broad way leading to destruction, the kingdome of hell, the body of Antichrist, a sinke of errors, a great mother of fornications, the Church of the wicked, out of which euery Christian ought to depart, which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy, and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes. In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church, vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church, which you shall neuer be able to doe, so long as Rome standeth. He would not, say you, seeme to gain-say the Church, hee kept craftily still the name of the Church, but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away. We verily, Campian, creuerence and honor the Church, as our ⟨p. 78⟩mother, and in our definition wee both retaine the name, and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe. But you hauing lost the Church long since, do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church. Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you; why I pray you? because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it. Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church, whose presence make a Church, and their absence marre or destroy a Church. But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church?
cDVR. Why do you not then defend her authority, but diminish and lessen it, yea and horribly blaspheme, affirming that the spouse of Christ may err and be deceived? WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme, making the Church equal to God, to whom it is only peculiar not to err, not be deceived. For the Church may err though she be his Spouse, but not persist in any deadly error: as the Church of the Apostles did, when she thought her husbands kingdom was of this world, yea and after showed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles.DVR. Why do you not then defend her authoritie, but diminish and lessen it, yea and horriblie blaspheme, affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued? WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme, making the Church equall to God, to whom it is only peculiar not to erre, not be deceiued. For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse, but not persist in any deadly error: as the Church of the Apostles did, when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world, yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles.
we verily judge this to be proper to the true Church, tod hear the word of Christ, and keep it, to use wholly and purely those Sacraments, which Christ, when he departed from his Church, left her, as a pledge of his love to her, and as a proof of her loyalty to him. These we maintain as the most true and substantial properties of the ⟨p. 79⟩Church, and this definition, made of the natural and inbred principles and grounds of the thing, which we define, you shall never be able to overthrow. I pray you what is there here that hideth the Church? doth the word of God; do the Sacraments hide the Church? yea these are they that make thec Church appear as clear as any thing at noon day, these give unto the Church strength, health and beauty: abolish these, there will remain nothing but the carcass of the Church. What drowsy dream then is this, you tell us of an airy body? as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth; we never doubted but the Church ever hath been, and ever shall be upon the earth: though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so clear that it may be seen of all: at another time is so obscured & ever shadowed, that one can hardly know it. But no Church pleaseth you, save that which is continually flourishing, and which is visible to all mens eyes, which hath a continual succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning, and which is subject to the Pope. Now Campian, as for you, you come to late to tell us of these frantic popish dreams; we have heard, discussed, and dissolved them, above a thousand times. Do you think you are able to make us believe, that the state of the Church is such, that it cannot be hid, that treachery should prevail nothing against it, an open enemy nothing, Antichrist himself nothing? These can never quite overthrow the Church, they may drive it to straits and thrust it into corners.3 Augustine compareth the Church to the Moon, which sometime while it is enlightened by the Sun-beams, shineth out, a• another time it is deprived of the greatest part of the light, and sometime shineth not at all. So the Church sometime shineth most brightly, sometime is more obscured, sometime hardly appeareth, and her whole course is ⟨p. 80⟩continually gaining and losing of light.
we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church, tod heare the word of Christ, and keepe it, to vse wholly and purely those Sacraments, which Christ, when hee departed from his Church, left her, as a pledge of his loue to her, and as a proofe of her loyalty to him. These we maintaine as the most true and substantiall properties of the ⟨p. 79⟩Church, and this definition, made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing, which we define, you shall neuer bee able to ouerthrow. I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church? doth the word of God; do the Sacraments hide the Church? yea these are they that make thec Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day, these giue vnto the Church strength, health and beauty: abolish these, there will remaine nothing but the carkase of the Church. What drowsie dreame then is this, you tell vs of an airy body? as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth; wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been, and euer shal be vpon the earth: though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so cleere that it may be seen of all: at another time is so obscured & euer shadowed, that one can hardly know it. But no Church pleaseth you, saue that which is continually flourishing, and which is visible to all mens eies, which hath a continuall succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning, and which is subiect to the Pope. Now Campian, as for you, you come to late to tell vs of these frantike popish dreames; wee haue heard, discussed, and distolued them, aboue a thousand times. Doe you thinke you are able to make vs beleeue, that the state of the Church is such, that it cannot be hid, that treachery should preuaile nothing against it, an open enemy nothing, Antichrist himselfe nothing? These can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church, they may driue it to straits and thrust it into corners.3 Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone, which sometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames, shineth out, a• another time it is depriued of the greatest part of the light, and sometime shineth not at all. So the Church sometime shineth most brightly, sometime is more obscured, sometime hardly appeareth, and her whole course is ⟨p. 80⟩continually gayning and losing of light.
dDVR. The Church is not to be sought for by these, as by notes, but they are to be learned from the Church. WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached, but in the Church, nor the Sacraments purely administered, that the Church is not to be known and found out by then? Yea the contrary followeth, because they are not elsewhere but in the Church: therefore by these notes the true Church is to be known and demonstrated. For if only Peripatetians profess the Philosophy of Aristotle, then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians, and distinguisheth them from all other sects of Philosophers. DVR. Thus to search out the Church, is but to seek out one unknown thing by another, which is more unknown. WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture were more hidden and unknown then the Church, and the Scripture could better be known by the Church, then it by the Scripture: undoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church; and then is a ting hknowne, when the cause is known. 2. I here are many and divers Churches, but there is but one constant Scripture always like it self. 3. If at any time there was ever doubt made of the Scripture; yet there have been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church. Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon, a rule; now the rule as it is straighter, so is it more certain then the thing that is squared by it. DVR. The notes of the Church ought to be such, as are agreed upon among all, as are proper to it, neither can be challenged probably by any other Church. WHIT. pag. 356. I conf•sse as much, and such are our notes in all things; whereas yours, are nothing lest. DVR. But every sect layeth claim to your notes. WHIT. pag. 256. What then, what if you lay claim to the things I possess, are they therefore not mine own? Be it that heretics do lay claim to the Scriptures, yet they do it without all show of reason, and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted.DVR. The Church is not to be sought for by these, as by notes, but they are to be learned from the Church. WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached, but in the Church, nor the Sacramēts purely administred, that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then? Yea the contrary followeth, because they are not elsewhere but in the Church: therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated. For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle, then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians, and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers. DVR. Thus to search out the Church, is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another, which is more vnknowne. WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church, and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church, then it by the Scripture: vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church; and then is a ting hknovvne, vvhen the cause is knovvne. 2. I here are many and diuers Churches, but there is but one constant Scripture alvvaies like it selfe. 3. If at any time there vvas euer doubt made of the Scripture; yet there haue been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church. Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon, a rule; novv the rule as it is straighter, so is it more certeine then the thing that is squared by it. DVR. The notes of the Church ought to be such, as are agreed vpon among all, as are proper to it, neither can be challengd probablie by any other Church. WHIT. pag. 356. I confsse as much, and such are our notes in all things; vvhereas yours, are nothing leste. DVR. But euery sect layeth claime to your notes. WHIT. pag. 256. What then, vvhat if you lay claime to the things I possesse, are they therfore not mine ovvne? Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures, yet they doe it vvithout all shevv of reason, and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted.
Will you that I manifest it to you by examples? while David and Solomon reigned, the Church flourished in Israel; but when Ahab reigned, the face of the Church was so far obscured, that the most divine Prophetf Elijah complained that there was not one remaining save himself. If there could be such a havoc made of the Church,2 that of all that great number of the godly, there was scarce one to be seen, (though there was a good sum remaining of them.) it need be no wonder that in the kingdom of Antichrist, who surpasseth all Ahabs and Jezebels in all barbarous cruelty, that the Church should be so wasted, that there should appear a marvellous scarcity of faithful men. And yet could Antichrist in that great havoc of religion and the Church, never so far prevail, but there was a remnant of many thousand thousands of Saints, who never bowed their knees to the beast, neither ever received the mark of the beast. Let us pass along to those times when Christ lived upon the earth, and consider the state of the Church of Jerusalem. For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome, then that, as the state of it was, when Christ did perform the work of our salvation. They had the Scripture, they were a people zealous of the law, they had the Temple, they had Levites, Priests, yea a high Priest; what was wanting here to make a perfect Church? Christ at length showeth himself openly, and bringeth that happy message of salvation; this very Church hated, persecuted, cursed, and in the end killed this Christ, the Son of God, the legate of his Father, the teacher of celestial doctrine; the author of our salvation. This Church then, Campian, was it a true Church or no, what think you? If it was, then the true Church hated Christ, and judged him worthy of death. If it was not, then where and what is the true Church? for ⟨p. 81⟩Christ at the first had a very small number, that if you answerg Christ and his company was the Church, then you fall into that crime, which you reprove us for. If then this might befall theh Church of Jerusalem, that though it had, and by continued succession enjoyed the name of the Church, yet in very truth it was nothing else but a cave and den of thieves:
Will you that I manifest it to you by examples? while Dauid and Salomon raigned, the Church flourished in Israell; but when Ahab raigned, the face of the Church was so far obscured, that the most diuine Prophetf Eliah complained that there was not one remaining saue himselfe. If there could be such a hauocke made of the Church,2 that of all that great number of the godly, there was scarce one to be seene, (though there was a good summe remaining of them.) it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichrist, who surpasseth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty, that the Church should be so wasted, that there should appeare a maruellous scarcity of faithfull men. And yet could Antichrist in that great hauocke of religion and the Church, neuer so far preuaile, but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints, who neuer bowed their knees to the beast, neither euer receiued the marke of the beast. Let vs passe along to those times when Christ liued vpon the earth, and consider the state of the Church of Ierusalem. For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome, then that, as the state of it was, when Christ did performe the worke of our saluation. They had the Scripture, they were a people zealous of the law, they had the Temple, they had Leuits, Priests, yea a high Priest; what was wanting here to make a perfect Church? Christ at length sheweth himselfe openly, and bringeth that happie message of saluation; this very Church hated, persecuted, cursed, and in the end killed this Christ, the Son of God, the lagat of his Father, the teacher of celestiall doctrine; the author of our saluation. This Church then, Campian, was it a true Church or no, what think you? If it was, then the true Church hated Christ, and iudged him worthy of death. If it was not, then where and what is the true Church? for ⟨p. 81⟩Christ at the first had a very smale number, that if you answereg Christ and his company was the Church, then you fall into that crime, which you reproue vs for. If then this might befall theh Church of Hierusalem, that though it had, and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church, yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues:
fDVR. Elijah spake not of the whole Church, but of the kingdom of Israel, wherein he lived. WHIT. pag. 261. He lived at that time, not in the kingdom of Israel, but in the mountain of God, Mount Horeb. 1. King. 19.8. But grant he spake of Israel only: it is no less for our purpose. For that which happened there, that no good men appeared, though many lay hid, so it may fall out in other churches, and at other times, that none or few of the faithful appear; yet God may have a multitude of unknown believers.DVR. Elias spake not of the whole Church, but of the kingdome of Israell, wherein he liued. WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time, not in the kingdome of Israell, but in the moūtaine of God, Moūt Horeb. 1. King. 19.8. But grāt he spake of Israell only: it is no lesse for our purpose. For that which hapned there, that no good men appeared, though many lay hid, so it may fall out in other churches, and at other times, that none or few of the faithfull appeare; yet God may haue a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers.
gDVR. The Church undoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostles. WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our advantage; it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawful succession ordained of the Lord; who also had the place, the name, the dignity, and magnificent ornaments of the Church; but it was in a few, who after a sort were cut off from the Church, it is a thing without question, that the Church is not always to be sought for in a visible multitude, and an outward succession of men: but often times in obscure places, and amongst a very few.DVR. The Church vndoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes. WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage; it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawfull succession ordeined of the Lord; who also had the place, the name, the dignity, and magnificent ornaments of the Church; but it was in a few, who after a sort were cut off from the Church, it is a thing without question, that the Church is not alwaies to bee sought for in a visible multitude, and an outward succession of men: but often times in obscure places, and amongst a very few.
hDVR. That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusal•••, cannot befall to the Church of Christ, whieth the Prophets have plainly foretold should never perish.
I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it self, why it may not be said long ago to have lost the body of the Church, though it keep still the visard, the name, and the vestments of the Church. What if the Romish Church condemned Luther? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretic, and that it is the Catholic Church? The Church of Jerusalem condemned Christ, and him and his they would have denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themselves out of those straights, they were brought into. But happily they will say, there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church.1 But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasy, that should be before Christs coming ⟨p. 82⟩to judgement,i which Apostasy is from religion and the Church, as the most ancient Fathers do understand it: and Christ prophesied evidently of the small number of his.3 When the Son of man shall come shall he find kfaith on the earth? If hardly any faith shall remain on the earth, and the Church cannot be said to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth necessarily that when Christ cometh, their number shall be very small, who may truly be called the Church. You have now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church unto us, unless you think your self better able to portray it, then the holy Ghost himself could do, who hath set out the Church in far better colours and manner, then I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walls. But, say you, there are Epistles of Christ written to the seven Churches which were in Asia; there are also divers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. John, and by others unto sundry Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles we find mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? These were not known to God only, but also to all Christians: who ever denied that? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians, to which Paul writ, were particular visible Churches. Did we ever seem to make question whether a Church might be visible or no? we verily call all those visible and apparent Churches, which profess the pure word of God and hold those rights ⟨p. 83⟩and Sacraments which are commanded by Christ.
I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe, why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church, though it keepe still the visard, the name, and the vestments of the Church. What if the Romish Church condemned Luther? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike, and that it is the Catholike Church? The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ, and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themselues out of those straights, they were brought into. But happily they will say, there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church.1 But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie, that should be before Christs comming ⟨p. 82⟩to iudgement,i which Apostafie is from religion and the Church, as the most auncien• Fathers do vnderstand it: and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his.3 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find kfaith on the earth? If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth, and the Church cannot be said to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth, their number shall be very small, who may truly be called the Church. You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs, vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it, then the holy Ghost himselfe could do, who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner, then I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walles. But, say you, there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia; there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. Iohn, and by others vnto sundrie Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? These were not knowne to God only, but also to all Christians: who euer denied that? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians, to which Paul writ, were particular visible Churches. Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no? we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches, which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights ⟨p. 83⟩
iDVR. The Fathers have understood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Roman Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyril of Jerusalem (a man you much esteem) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasy from the true faith, so doth Chrysostom, Oecumenius, so many others. Yea your Divines of Rhemes have so expounded it.DVR. The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Romane Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem (a man you much esteeme) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith, so doth Chrysostome, Oecumenius, so many others. Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it.
kDVR. Augustine de vultat. Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith, WE understand this speech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the small number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano•. WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistook the place, must we rest in their exposition? we have Nazianzene cont. Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan upon this place against them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked, and the small number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked shall be great, but of the godly small?DVR. Augustine de vultat. Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith, VVE vnderstand this speech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the small number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano•. WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place, must we rest in their exposition? we haue Nazianzene cont. Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked, and the small number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked shall be great, but of the godly small?
And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England, Scotland, Germany, France, and other parts of Christendom, though it grieve you Jesuits they should be so visible and apparent. But what kind of reasoning is this?l Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible: therefore the Catholic Church is ever visible. Have you learned such Logic as this at Rome in your famous schools of Jesuits? or do you, Campian, think that these manner of Allegations should go for proofs in the ears of our University men? but where are those Churches now, which were then so flourishing? Show me the Church of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinthians, and the rest. Now they are no where to be seen, and are no longer Churches. And that which we have seen already befall those Churches, teach us, I pray you, how it may not also betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church shall be safe: neither shall the downfall of any city or Empire ever be able to abolish it. And at this day there are many flourishing Churches, which are equal to your falsely called Catholic Church, for the number, & undoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold.
And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England, Scotland, Germanie, Fraunce, and other parts of Christendome, though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant. But what kind of reasoning is this?l Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible: therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible. Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits? or doe you, Campian, thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men? but where are those Churches now, which were then so flourishing? Shew me the Church of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinthes, and the rest. Now they are no where to be seene, and are no lōger Churches. And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches, teach vs, I pray you, how it may not also betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church shall be safe: neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it. And at this day there are many flourishing Churches, which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church, for the number, & vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold.
lDVR. All particular Churches on which the Catholic Church consisteth, as on parts, are visible: therefore the Catholic Church it self is visible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholic, are not visible: because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times past, and of those which shall be in the time to come. But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it must be visible: nay so long […] particulars are visible, it cannot, for when all the parts are grown into o••, then is the whole visible, but not each several part; so when the several parts may be seen, the whole cannot be seen, because the parts are no••ow become one. So the contrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible, the whole cannot be seen.DVR. All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth, as on parts, are visible: therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike, are not visible: because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times past, and of those which shall be in the time to come. But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it must be visible: nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible, it cannot, for when all the parts are growen into o••, then is the whole visible, but not each seuerall part; so when the seuerall parts may be seene, the whole cānot be seen, because the parts are no••ow become one. So the cōtrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible, the whole cannot be seene.
But you say, That for 1500. years we could not spy out one town, one village, one house seasoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very false,m for in the ⟨p. 84⟩Apostles time, all Churches, all cities, all towns, every family embraced the same faith and religion which we now profess. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrinen began to be corrupted, and divers superstitions spread far and near; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, resist,3 until that mystery of iniquity, which took rooting in the very Apostles time, spread it selfo by all the parts of the Church, and at length possessed it wholly. Yet Antichrist that man of sin, could never prevail so far, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and those, whose names were written in the book of life, did utterly abhor all those filthy and wicked ⟨p. 85⟩superstitions of Antichrist. For in the Church of Rome it self even in the worth times of it, yet many were ever found, who worshipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themselves unpolluted with that horrible Idolatry. And this can histories of all times witness, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon up to you, many houses, villages, towns, cities, and countries, where Christ had many and populous Churches. Thep Greek Church could never yet be brought to join it self to your Church, and it is […] opposite to you, as ever our Church was. And yet you so forge these things, as if the Pope of Rome long ago had had the whole world under his subjection. Until that unhappy Monk, as you say, by his incest•••• marriage had deflowered a Nun, dedicated to God by […] sole•••• […] or until that quarrelling Sw••• had conspired against his country, or that infamous ••••gate had undertaken an usurped authority in Ge••••. So, Campian, go on to rail and revile every good man, pour out the gall of your bitterness, seeing you have undertaken to spend all your venomous darts upon them. Luther's name is written in the book of life; and his memory shall ever be sacred among all good men, and your reproaches shall not be able to pierce or wound him. It is a true saying, that a false reproach pierceth not the skin: you call him Monk, & your self is but a Friar; now Monks were ever accounted more honest then Friars. But he ⟨p. 86⟩by incestuous marriage de••oured […] Nom•••, dedicated to God by solemn vow.q
But you say, That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne, one village, one house seasoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very false,m for in the ⟨p. 84⟩Apostles time, all Churches, all cities, all townes, euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrinen began to be corrupted, and diuers superstitions spread far and neare; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, resist,3 vntill that mystery of iniquitie, which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time, spread it selfeo by all the parts of the Church, and at length possessed it wholy. Yet Antichrist that man of sinne, could neuer preuaile so farre, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and those, whose names were written in the booke of life, did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked ⟨p. 85⟩superstitions of Antichrist. For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it, yet many were euer found, who worshipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie. And this can histories of all times witnesse, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon vp to you, many houses, villages, townes, cities, and countries, where Christ had many and populous Churches. Thep Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church, and it is 〈…〉 opposite to you, as euer our Church was. And yet you so forge these things, as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection. Vntill that vnhappy Monke, as you say, by his incest•••• marriage had defloured a Nunne, dedicated to God by 〈…〉 sole••••〈…〉 or vntill that quarrelling Sw••• had c••spired against his country, or that infamous gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Ge. So, Campian, go on to raile and reuile euery good man, powre out the gall of your bitternes, seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them. Luthers name is written in the book of life; and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men, and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him. It is a true saying, that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne: you call him Monke, & your selfe is but a Frier; now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers. But he
mDVR. The Arians, M••cedonians, and all other ancient heretics may by the same probability say as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arians or any other heretic can prove the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may answer the same which we do, for every Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine, may profess that all cities, village•, […] which were religious, were seasoned with their doctrine.DVR. The Arrians, M••cedonians, and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may answere the same which we doe, for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine, may professe that all cities, village•, 〈…〉 which were religous, were seasoned with their doctrine.
nDVR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sun is so very swift, that we may see it hath moved, though we cannot discern the moving of it: so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceive by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolical; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpose. And it were too long to tell all, yet hear some, Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equal to other Bishops th•ugh much was given to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Christian world was divided into four Provinces, when he became the chief of the Patriarchs, after this he began to challenge authority over other Churches, and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice: but he was repressed by the African Councell. Then Gregory the great, greatly inveighed against John of Constantinople, because he sought the name of universal Bishop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist. Lastly, Boniface the eight with a great sum obtained that honour of Phocas the Parricide. And since that he grew to that height, that he made not only Churches and Kings, but the Christian Emperor himself to kiss his feet. But see another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proveth, who rent a veil in pieces, because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint. But in time they were received into the Church, but no honour given them: yet after that, good Bishops brake them and cast them out again; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbade them to be worshipped, we commend you, but that you brake them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiously to be worshipped. And thus hath it succeeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell saying; The mystery of iniquity doth already work.
Luther indeed took to wife in holy wedlock, a Virgin that once was entangled by a rash & superstitious vow, after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion. Exclaim bitterly as you list. Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler, seeing your self is a player of a Price. But tell us wherein he did ever show himself such a cutter? forsooth he boldly ventured his life with his fellow citizens.1 If Zuinglius at the command of the Senate went to war against the enemies of his coū try & religion, where he perished by cruel thieves, who lay in wait for him, what did he unbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithful Pastor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conspiracy against his country, besides that it is a shameless lie, I wonder why you should object such a crime to him, seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country. As for Calvin whom you call a seareback: runagate, the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man, and a most constant servant of the Lord: who was as far from lewdness and dishonesty, as you are from shamefastness and honesty. If he was seared, S. Paul was so too,2 yea & divers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell us, where you have lived for ⟨p. 87⟩these divers years, and remember what your self were. Calvin never forsook the Church, he once took upon him to govern, but there he lived with the special love of all, and there he ended his days: but why do I answer you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men, whom you shall never justly defame, though you burst your hart with lying.
Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke, a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash & superstitious vow, after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion. Exclaime bitterly as you list. Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler, seeing your self is a player of a Price. But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter? forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens.1 If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his coū trie & religion, where he perished by cruell theeues, who lay in waite for him, what did he vnbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithfull Pastor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country, besides that it is a shamelesse lie, I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him, seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country. As for Caluin whom you call a seareback: runagate, the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man, and a most constant seruant of the Lord: who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie, as you are from shamefastnes and honesty. If he was seared, S. Paul was so too,2 yea & diuers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell vs, where you haue liued for ⟨p. 87⟩these diuers yeares, and remember what your selfe were. Caluin neuer forsooke the Church, hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne, but there he liued with the speciall loue of all, and there he ended his daies: but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men, whom you shal neuer iustly defame, though you burst your hart with lying.
But let us now hear your communication as you call it. And here you demand, Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred yours? we answer, we will subscribe: but say you, to which Church? I answerr to the Church which is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles: that is, to the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and all those famous and excellent Churches of which we read in the Epistles written by the Apostles, yea even to the ancient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyster. Finally we subscribe to those Churches, of whom we read in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine, which the Apostles taught among them, sound & uncorrupt. These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine, were true Churches; & to those Churches we have and ever will subscribe. And by this I think we have cut off the progress of your conference, for we have not given you such an answer as you feigned to your self. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand. but no answer will please you, unless we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church: but that we justly disclaim, because it hath foully corrupted the ••• stles ⟨p. 88⟩writing. You must find you out other subscribers, Campian, for we will subscribe to none but the Apostolical Churches. But one thing, say you, they will still stand upon in darkness, that where and in what place soever the Church is, there are conceived therein only Saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heaven. We speak not so of the Church as you write: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church, that it is sometimess visible and sometimes invisible. In a particular visible Church, of which they are members, who will hear the Word, and receive the Sacraments: we confess there are many feigned Christians, who had rather have the visard of faith, then true faith indeed. An invisible Church we affirm to contain only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospel. These though they may be seen as long as they live amongst men, seeing they are men as others be, yet because neither their faith nor Gods love, which maketh them members of the Church, is visible, we affirm that this Church, consisting of holy and faithful men, is altogether invisible.
But let vs now heare your communication as you call it. And heere you demaund, Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres? we answere, we will subscribe: but say you, to which Church? I answerer to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles: that is, to the Churches of Hierusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles, yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyste•. Finally we subscribe to those Churches, of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine, which the Apostles taught among them, sound & vncorrupt. These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine, were true Churches; & to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe. And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference, for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand. but no answere will please you, vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church: but that we iustly disclaime, because it hath fouly corrupted the ••• stles ⟨p. 88⟩writing. You must find you out other subscribers, Campian, for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches. But one thing, say you, they will still stand vpon in darkenes, that where and in what place soeuer the Church is, there are con•eiued therein only Saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heauen. We speake not so of the Church as you write: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church, that it is sometimess visible and sometimes inuisible. In a particular visible Church, of which they are members, who will heare the Word, and receiue the Sacraments: we confesse there are many fained Christians, who had rather haue the visard of faith, then true faith indeed. An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospell. These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men, seeing they are men as others bee, yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue, which maketh them members of the Church, is visible, we affirme that this Church, consisting of holy and faithfull men, is altogether inuisible.
rDVR. He did not demand whether you would subscribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but whether to that Church, which hath flourished these many hundred years; which if you would, you must needs yield as overcome, when none but ours have flourished thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred years: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h•• the name of ••e church: […] will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now […] they hold the Apostles doctrine: but you shall never prove […] we must necessarily subscribe to place, Sea, & succession, no more then Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing upon the earth.DVR. He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but vvhether to that Church, vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares; vvhich if you vvould, you must needs yeeld as ouercome, vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h•• the name of ••e church: 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine: but you shall neuer proue 〈…〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place, Sea, & succession, no more then Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth.
sDVR. I believe only one Catholic Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which containeth both the elect, and as many as profess true religion. Now you teach me to believe two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the unity of the Church, no more then when the Church is said to be m•••an and u••• phant, universal and particular. For the visible and ••uisible Church make but one: called visible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is seen and discerned; invisible because Gods election and the elects faith is not to be seen with eyes. And this distinction we have, Isaiah. 1.9.
Christ is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca• join themselves, ⟨p. 89⟩we then acknowledge another Church besides that, which containeth only Saints (for so should there be no visible Church at all) but what company of men soever upon the earth doth profess the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets, we profess that to be the true Church of Christ, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the first who did invent and devise these things, as you say of us, but are ready to prove them both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then your self, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our University men, and promise to your self great things from us, but see you bring more dexterity of wit, or else without doubt you can never deceive us with this shallow conceit. If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our University men, I persuade my self, they would not only tear to pieces these your childish shifts, but do as much by you too, for abusing so shamefully their learned conceits.
Christ is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca• ioyne themselues, ⟨p. 89⟩wee then acknowledge another Church besides that, which cōteineth only Saints (for so should there be no visible Church at all) but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets, we professe that to be the true Church of Christ, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things, as you say of vs, but are ready to proue thē both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then your selfe, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our Vniuersity men, and promise to your selfe great things from vs, but see you bring more dexterity of wit, or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit. If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men, I perswade my selfe, they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts, but do as much by you too, for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites.
cDVR. Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many years together? WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did never lie so hid, but it was discerned by your Pope, unless for so many years he persecuted shadows.DVR. Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many yeares together? WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie so hid, but it vvas discerned by your Pope, vnlesse for so many yeares he persecuted shadovves.
. Icrem. 31.31. Eze•. 37.26. WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Jerusalem was not the Church of Christ? what then happened unto it, which may not befall my others? And for the Prophesies you recier, they belong to the company of the elect, and not to your popish Church to which the Lord never promised any such thing. Christ verily will never endure that his Church should be abolished or perish: but it is one thing for it to perish, and another to lye hid for a time, and not to be seen; he hath promised it shall ever be preserved, not that it shall ever be visible and glorious. DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world. WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall never be hid, nor shut up in a few? nothing less: for he hath promised that wheresoever two or three are gathered together in his name, he will be in the middest of them.
DVR. That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusal•••, cannot befall to the Church of Christ, whieth the Prophets haue plainly foretold should neuer perish. Isay. 19.21. Icrem. 31.31. Eze•. 37.26. WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ? what then happened vnto it, which may not befall my others? And for the Prophesies you recier, they belong to the company of the elect, and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing. Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish: but it is one thing for it to perish, and another to lye hid for a time, and not to bee seene; he hath promised it shall euer be preserued, not that it shall euer be visible and glorious. DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world. WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid, nor shut vp in a few? nothing lesse: for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name, he will be in the middest of them.
and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ.
••••
••••
⟨p. 86⟩
by incestuous marriage de••oured 〈…〉 Nom•••, dedicated to God by solemne vow.
DVR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift, that we may see it hath moued, though we cannot discerne the mouing of it: so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpose. And it were too long to tell all, yet heare some, Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops th•ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces, when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes, after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches, and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice: but he was repressed by the African Councell. Then Gregory the great, greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople, because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist. Lastly, Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide. And since that hee grew to that height, that hee made not only Churches and Kings, but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete. But see another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proueth, who rent a vaile in peeces, because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint. But in time they were receiued into the Church, but no honor giuen them: yet after that, good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbad them to be worshipped, wee commend you, but that you brake them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiously to be worshipped. And thus hath it succeeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell•e saying; The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke. 2. Thess. 2.7.
oDVR. What can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously, when he did so •••ell of a departing, and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the mystery of iniquity should spread it self over the Church?DVR. VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously, when he did so •••ell of a departing, and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church?
pDVR. This is very false, for in the Florentine Councell the Emperor Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and embraced the Roman faith, yea and at this day they dissent from us in few things, as Icremy the Patriarch of Constantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatics, or why obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Councell of Trent? the Pope by all means hath sought to have them subject to him, but they still contemn him to his no small grief. It is true, the Emperor, the Patriarch, and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florentine Councel. They agreed with thē in many things, •••hers they dissented; your Transubstantiation they utterly renounced. At that time Jesaphus their Patriarch suddenly died. Eugenius the Pope instantly urged a new election. They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople. See you not how well they agree? I have a book of yours, not of Jeremies, neither vvill a small thing make me believe it is his: for both the Grecian•, and particularly he, hath giver great approbation of our Churches, as we find it in his works published both in Greek and Latin.DVR. This is very false, for in the Florētine Councell the Emperour Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and imbraced the Romane faith, yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things, as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes, or vvhy obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Councell of Trent? the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue thē subiect to him, but they stil cō temne him to his no small griefe. It is true, the Emperour, the Patriarke, and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florētine Coūcel. They agreed vvith thē in many things, •••hers they dissented; your Trāsubstantiation they vtterly renoūced. At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died. Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election. They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople. See you not hovv vvell they agree? I haue a booke of yours, not of Ieremies, neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his: for both the Grecian•, and particularly he, hath giuer great approbation of our Churches, as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin.
qDVR. But you go against S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry, having broken their first saith; which is understood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how prove you that the Apostle understandeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the scope of the place showeth us the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widows, whom he persuadeth to marry, should be taken into that office; only such as were threescore years old, who may well abstain from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he showeth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many, they would wa• wa••on against Christ, and break their first faith, which is not their vow, but the profession of Christian religion, which such light buswives would easily co•••••, that they might enjoy their pleasures. And that this is his meaning the 1•. verse showeth: For certain are already turned back after Satan; showing what some had done, he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did also expound these words, (as indeed they do not) yet the argument is very weak in divinity: The Fathers have thus expounded it, therefore the exposition is true.DVR. But you goe against S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry, hauing broken their first saith; which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstādeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes, whom he perswadeth to marry, should be taken into that office; only such as were threescore yeares old, who may well abstaine from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he sheweth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many, they would wa• wa••on against Christ, and breake their first faith, which is not their vow, but the profession of Christian religion, which such light buswiues would easily co•••••, that they might inioy their pleasures. And that this is his meaning the 1•. verse sheweth: For certeine are already turned backe after Satan; shewing what some had done, he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did also expound these words, (as indeed they doe not) yet the argument is very weake in diuinity: The Fathers haue thus expounded it, therefore the exposition is true.
. As for the Creeds you mention, we believe them in this point aswell as you. But tell us; this one Catholic Church what is it? If you restrain the name to the visible Church; first, you exclude both that in heaven of the Saints, and that which shall be of these which a•e unborn, and yet do belong to the Catholic Church: secondly you place faith in the sense, which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seen,
. As for that Catholic Church which we believe, it is the company of all the elect, even as many as have been from the beginning of the world, and shall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apostolic and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no profane and wicked men, no hypocrites; because they have no fellowship with Christ. For the holy Church is the mystical body of Christ, of which body no member can at any time perish.
DVR. I beleeue only one Catholike Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which conteineth both the elect, and as many as professe true religion. Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church, no more then when the Church is said to be m•••an and u••• phant, vniuersall and particular. For the visible and ••uisible Church make but one: called visible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is seene and discerned; inuis•ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies. And this distinction we haue, Esay. 1.9. Matth. 22.14. As for the Creedes you mention, we beleeue them in this point aswell as you. But tell vs; this one Catholike Church what is it? If you restraine the name to the visible Church; first, you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints, and that which shall be of these which a•e vnborne, and yet do belong to the Catholike Church: secondly you place faith in the sense, which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene, Heb. 11.1. As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue, it is the company of all the elect, euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world, and shall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men, no hypocrites; because they haue no fellowship with Christ. For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ, of which body no member can at any time perish.
